Angryshroom I agree with a lot of your post, and am an advocate of making almost all of my own food, including lean burgers with vegetables mixed in them, and high fiber/low carb pita pizzas. I have been eating this way for many years and I don't feel deprived.

I look at food in a similar way of "what does it give me?," but I make any and everything that I want to eat in the healthiest way that I can that is still really tasty. I'm a damn good cook!

For my child, I can see that it's not about the food. What the invitation for pizza and soda with friends gives her is socialization. If you watch kids, they'll often eat a piece of pizza, drink half of a cup of soda, and run to play anyway. I'm not advocating that food needs to be there to celebrate, but I've seen the same kids come to my house to eat tomatoes, cauliflower mac, and steak, and go to another neighbor's house to eat chicken/veggie stir fry. I do think that kids need to be able to relax around food and not be hyper-aware of what's "good" and "bad." If you give them the basics, they know what treats are and how to handle them.

Again, I'm not depriving myself of anything here either. I myself am a good cook too, so I've got that going for me. Had a craving for pancakes, so I made me some oatmeal-banana pancakes on Sunday. Had a craving for hotdogs, so I made me hotdogs yesterday, albeit veggie hotdogs, with wholegrain bread. And yes, I added some ketchup, damnit!

I'm also experimenting making cheesecake with low-fat and stevia. Experiments have thus far been not good enough, but I've yet to throw one away (so they were bearable, but nothing like the real deal yet).

As far as kids go, it's not like I want to deprive them from social gatherings, but I just don't feel like they need to get into contact with really fat and really sugared food. Lemonade and cola were not just things I drank at friends. Lemonade and cola were not just a weekend-thing. They were an everyday-thing. And that is what I advocate against. Also, caffeine is not for children, period. Nesquik, Nutella are by far the worst things ever. I drink chocolate milk, too, every day even! But chocolate soymilk. With little added sugars (and at least I'm fully aware of what it adds). Same goes with cereals, going to fastfoodrestaurants,.. It just isn't something for children. They shouldn't have to be introduced to these at such a young age.

It's not like I'd make an entire list of "this is good and this is bad" and then say "you can never eat this!". What I do want, is for my children to understand very early on that food is what you need to survive, and not because it tastes good and gives you a rush afterwards.

And it's like I said with sweet candy, I was never introduced to sweet candy at a young age and to this day and age, I still don't like it. Or rice. I have nothing against rice, I like rice, even, but it's something I will rarely ever make and if I do, I will never overeat on rice. Simply because my Mom never put rice on the table (she absolutely hates rice).

So, I do believe that, if you introduce kids to foods that are high in sugar and/or fat, they will be more likely to continue eating these in higher quantities for the rest of their lives. Whereas, if you let them explore themselves at an older age (pre-teens and older), they are more likely to maybe enjoy it, but not see it as a go-to food (like me and the rice).

I also wouldn't be devastated if I found out they had a pizza at some friends, once in a blue moon, but if they'd be eating pizza on a regular basis at friends... No, I'd rather not want that to happen. Or at least I'd want them to tell me my homemade pizza is ten times better than that delivery one.

I think (non-homemade) pizza can certainly fit into a healthy eating plan. Again, about midway during my initial weight loss, something that helped me was having a day where I didn't cook. My husband and I went out to eat pizza almost every weekend. We more often than not got a vegetarian pizza and my favorite pizza topping was broccoli. I actually don't make pizza at home because I don't care to. Again, I think people can fit anything into a healthy eating plan. I don't think they have to but I think it possible.

I can find counterexamles of the kids argument. A friend said his mom never gave him any sweets, she offered fruit. Today he hates fruit and hasn't eaten any in decades. and another family I knew when I was a kid, they never let their kids have anything, but the daughter stole sweets from other kids' lunches. Once in high school, the son would never buy lunch but spend his lunch money only on candy from the vending machines.

so I don't think cutting my kids off is necessarily going to work, Ive seen it backfire.

On the other end of the spectrum, one friend said her family had a goodie drawer full of candy, she could have any of it anytime she wanted, but today she hates candy.

I agree. I assume you are referring to me since yumusedthebword "intuitively" so I'll clarify. I was not telling you specifically to look at food differently. I said that having a neutral relationship with food is imperative to the concept of portion control.

I make a great pizza. But there are great pizzas outntherento be had, I live in NY so there isn't any bad pizza to speak of lol. Pizza is so basic anyway, even the worst of it isn't "bad."

Apparently we have a different approach to what is a healthy meal plan. Yours does not only focus on actual health but also on fun, losing weight, etc. (And that's FINE! Trust me, if that works for you, the more power to you!).

Mine focuses only on health and mindful eating. If it doesn't, I'll be back to my all-or-nothing attitude. In calorie counting, that means after a month, I'm eating only 400 kcal/day and in restricting, that means binging.


As far as the kids, I know I've stated it as quite a black-and-white thing and working with kids is never black-and-white.
Then again, when I say I won't be introducing my kids to junk- and fast food, people here seem to believe that all there will be in the house, is lean chicken, fruit and vegetables.

I mean, come on, we eat pancakes every Sunday, I eat muesli with chocolate and I make my own hamburgers with fries and mayonnaise. (I'm Belgian, sue me).

They are just no longer part of the junk- and fast food family. They are the healthy brother of going to a fastfoodrestaurant and I see no reason why I need to let my children eat there, or let them eat sugary cereals or Nutella,... when there are so much healthier choices out there.

And everyone here who shows their children about healthy choices, is already doing great. I'm not going to call anyone a bad parent here, from what I've read, you are doing great yourselves.

I think me and you just have different definitions of mindful eating. I've never counted calories regularly but I've been 'calorie aware'. As of this year, I've given up calorie counting/calorie awareness and have started losing weight again. I eat whatever I want although there are many things I don't want to eat so I don't. If I want to eat something, I do and without guilt.

I've never been a fan of fast food and I never grew up with fast food but it didn't stop me from becoming obese. I actually became obese on regular old foods. I only developed an eating disorder after I was obese due to being put on diets and restriction. Which then caused me to gain more weight. That is why I'm done with diets and restriction.

Nelie I have found mindful eating to be really useful in losing weight. I think Angrys version of mindful eating is what I refer to as controlled restricted eating which is not the same thing. That's the kind of eating I was doing before that really escalatesd if not caused my eating disorder. I strongly believe that eating disorders cannot be treated with diets or controlled eating. I can't believe I'm only finding this out in my late 30s. I feel so robbed.

I still have no idea what is so controlled restrictive about what I eat? All I do, is look at the food I desire and think what it is giving me. Is it giving me nothing but calories? Then it's not happening. That simple.

But food can be about much more than nutrients, I agree. So, when I crave something (like I had a craving for pancakes last week), I first and foremost try to look for a variant on that type of food, that will not end up being plain calories.

So, I try to find ways to make it healthier. Like I said, I make hamburgers and fries every week. Pancakes as well. So what is restrictive, exactly? That I go out of my way to make it healthier?

IF I crave a food real badly and I cannot substitute it and the craving has nothing to do with a nutrient deficiency (main cause of a lot of cravings) then I perhaps would eat it. It hasn't happened yet though. I've been able to substitute everything, be it by fulfilling a craving by an entirely different food (as I said, craving because of lack of nutrient) or be it by finding a healthier version.

Eating a deep-frozen pizza or going to a snackbar for a cheeseburger does not work in how I look at food, because they can easily be replaced by a healthier version.

AngryShroom, I eat the way you do. Over time I have weaned myself off sweets and empty calories, primarily considering the nutritional value of what I eat. I do not feel deprived at all, I just prefer the taste of vegetables, lean meats without gravy or sauces, etc. By eating healthy I have changed my tastes. Yesterday I ate a piece of cake, the first sweets I have had in months. It was something that was one of my favorites previously. I enjoyed it and I'm glad I ate it. But the rest remains and it is not tempting me in the least. No struggle. It's not controlled or restrictive, just a new way of eating that I find enjoyable.

My 5 year old grandson who is being raised by my daughter-in-law who's eating habits are similar to mine snacks on cut up veggies and thinks of it as a treat. When he says "Mom I'm hungry" she gives him some celery or pepper strips she keeps cut up in the refrigerator. When he goes to school he will be introduced to the "junk food" that other kids are eating, but hopefully by then his eating habits will be firmly planted.

Having said that, I understand others who would rather eat what they are craving than try to white knuckle it to avoid foods that are said to be "bad." That is not a pleasant thing to do and no way to live your life. That's why there are so many different eating plans out there...we each have to choose what works for us.

I think there are versions of things you can make at home or make them healthier but honestly, if I want a cupcake, I'm going to buy it, not make it. I hate baking with a passion so I don't do it. And I'm not going to look for the cupcake that is made with applesauce instead of sugar/oil. Of course if the cupcake doesn't agree with me or doesn't taste very good, I'm not likely to finish eating it or even eat it again. I've found many foods that I used to restrict don't taste as good as I imagine them when I choose to eat them.

There are some foods, like peanut butter, that I cannot control myself around, so I will try not to have them in the house. Other things like pizza or ice cream, I'll have on occasion, but really more when I really, really want them, and by eating slower, I find I can eat a reasonable portion and feel full and not deprived.

When my depression was really bad, I'd cram down 4 slices of pizza and several glasses of wine without batting an eye, and feel bloated and gross all night long. I try to be more aware of how I feel now, and 2 slices of pizza and about 3/4 c of ice cream are good for me, when I really feel I want them. But I don't find myself wanting them so much anymore.

Angry, I'm not criticizing the way you eat. I am identifying with it as the way I used to eat. I've rejected that way of eating so I can find a more peaceful approach. It may not be the right way or the wrong way or whatever and I'm not trying to criticize it. It sounds like you're enjoying your food if not the company. I just can't look at food in the same way, as if it owes me something or that I can't allow it in my life unless it proves to be beneficial. I love all good food, I'm really skilled on the kitchen and I consider my food to be very healthy. I find all the food I eat to be nourishing in some way. I grew up in a family of farmers, we've been growing out own food for generations. I also don't like to think in terms of good food vs bad food and don't feel self righteous about te things I eat. I don't know if that makes sense lol I'm very jet lagged.

@wannabehealthy: I just haven't found anything yet of the so-called bad foods that I actually really crave. It's often just something else surrounding a food I crave, or I can replace them or... So I'm not restricting. Just like you.

It's just true, once you start to actually consider how certain foods make you feel, you learn to understand that half the foods that are on a "not so good"-list, are, well, not that what you love to eat the most.

Cheeseburgers, they are plain immediate satisfaction. Icecream, something I eat without thinking about it (without enjoying it!) in front of a TV. So, I see no point in eating them.

Some may find that restrictive. I just call that thinking about what you eat and why you eat. Which is mindful. Not restrictive.

Of course everyone needs to do what works for them. But having my diet called "restrictive"... I just feel it does short of how I now look at food, of what I tried to achieve with eating this way. Of the fight I'm fighting against my problems with food.

I know it may seem very black and white when I say that a deep-frozen pizza does not fit into a truly healthy diet. But that's how I feel. When I make it myself, it feels like I have placed a lot of thought into what goes into my mouth and to make it as healthy as humanly possible. If I buy it, just like that, what thought goes into it? Almost none. Checking out some numbers on a box, thinking, "sure, I can go for this if I don't do this and that in the next few days!". What's healthy about that? Saying no to much needed nutrients just to fulfill the need of a quick meal and some quick taste (that only lasts for a few moments)?

@nelie: I'm not saying I'll make anything and everything from scratch, but a lot of the thinking about what you'll eat, happens while you are shopping for the ingredients and while you are processing those ingredients. I personally find I savor way more if I have made the food myself, as opposed to store-bought items.

Then again, I have all odds with me. I actually enjoy being in the kitchen for lengthy times, but Wednesday was my off-day. I just didn't feel like cooking. I normally would've then gone to a snackbar, now, I went to a store and bought vegetables I could eat raw, with some bread. (Because yes, I cheat, I don't bake my own bread.)

Yes, it makes sense. And I know for me it's important that food always gives me something in return and that I know WHAT it gives me in return. I'm sure you still do the same. Food doesn't only give nutrients. It also gives feeling.
I've just chosen to find ways to give me those feelings without it having to be food and if it must be food, try to replace it with better food.

I actually also don't really like bad versus good food, it's very black and white indeed. Every food can always give you something in return, but it must be valuable. The good effects must last longer than the bad effects, because food can also give bad effects (bloated feeling, decreased health,...).

And yes, I prefer to stick things into my mouth that give me nutrients I need, rather than just calories (like cola). But just trust me when I say, if I'd truly need the cola and nothing else could give me what cola could give me at that time being, I'd drink the glass of cola and I'd enjoy it.

Maybe I'm just not far in enough yet though to feel these incredible cravings for junk and fast. If I ever do, I'll let you know just how much I enjoyed this 1000 kcal worth of nothingness.

Until that day, I'll stand firm: All comfort foods can be replaced and true healthy eating means not eating junk. Even if you now and then give into a craving, doesn't mean it's healthy.