Is that really the end all and be all of our existance? Am I the only one who finds this a little bit odd? I don't think that restaurant owners are the fat person's worst enemy, I don't think that anyone does as much damage to us as we do to ourselves, and I'm not talking about the unhealthy eating and the lack of exercise.
I'm talking about the hours spent not going to parties or dances because no one would want to ask us to join them anyway, the swims not taken at the beach because we won't wear a swim suit, the time not riding a bike because of how we'd look on it, the binges because "no one cares anyway", the secret feedings because of shame about food, the bulema, the laxitives, the 300 cal/day diets because we "have to lose the weight NOW", the many good starts aborted because "what difference will it make anyway", the depression, the anger, the fear...
You're right when you say we're our own worst enemy. But then why the "not going to parties or dances because no one would want to ask us to join them" and "the binges because "no one cares anyway"". We ARE our own worst enemy. That's what makes us think such thoughts. Do you really think no one would care, your family, your friends, if they truly knew what was going on? Or that no one is going to ask you to dance because you're overweight? There's a lot of guys who like overweight women in fact. But if we're always looking down, won't look them in the eye, and don't even go so that we CAN look at them, they never will ask us for that dance. It's a shame really. But in reality, much of those types of thoughts are often what causes many of us to ultimately become overweight. These are self-esteem issues we generally have BEFORE we get that way. As brought up...
Quote:
Originally Posted by teahoney
And as far as fat being a choice (which I only agree with to a certain extent), most of here know that our weight issues have almost nothing to do with food but is simply a symptom of other things ie. depression, low self-esteem, etc. And when you are deeply entrenched in those life issues, sometimes you feel as if you have NO choice.
You do. But feeling that way and actually not having a choice aren't the same. Deep down, we KNOW we have a choice, but the conscious thoughts get the best of us, it's no different than smoking, alcoholism, etc. We know only WE can change it, only we can stop, but we just don't want to today. Well, we want to, but deep down, we don't. We don't want to give up our comfort zone...not just yet anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaplods
There are groups that say that homosexuals can become heterosexual if they only are willing to try hard enough. There are even some people who claim to have done it.
I don't know if every fat person can become a thin peson if they try hard enough. I don't even know if I can, as I haven't been able to do it yet.
I'm not sure that choosing to have sex with someone I'm not really attracted to for the rest of my life, or at least living a life pretending to be attracted to people I'm not, could be any harder than this.
Homosexuals CAN become heteros, and fat people can become thin. But it's not if they TRY, it's only if they actually WANT it. I've tried to diet many times, and very hard. AND...I lost weight each and every time. But I gained it all back after I stopped dieting. This time I WANTED to not only lose it, but keep it off. I wanted it more than I wanted to keep making excuses for myself for why I give up on exercise and don't eat right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teahoney
As far as fitting in booths, I have very large breasts. I'm talking very large. Whether I am a 14 (my lowest size in my adult life) or a 26/28 (my current size), I can't sit in a booth. My breasts literally sit on the table. That is not a choice, it just is. And it pisses me off that restaurants basically are saying that anyone over a D or so cup have no chance of sitting there. That goes for a lot of rollercoasters that have the harness thingies you have to pull over yourself, movie theaters where the space in between the seats are so small that I'm bonking people in the head with my boobies trying to get to my seat. My point is, I don't think that restaurants, airlines, movie theaters need to totally renovate their establishments to accomodate heavier set people but since they think they are good enough to take our money, they can at least make SOME accomodations because those things wouldn't just benefit us but others like those mentioned in this thread that may have injuries. Or for people like my brother who are very tall and need more leg space than the little bit they call themselves giving you. We don't live in a cookie cutter society and since these places are suppose to serve us they should at least try to satisfy as many people as possible and not just one kind of person.
When I was pregnant, and about to pop, we went to Rubys with my dad (approx. 270), daughter (276), and a friend (300+). They took us to a booth. We simply asked for a table. If they didn't have one, we'd have gone somewhere else so we'd be able to sit, or waited for one if they were just temporarily unavailable. If they missed our business badly enough, they'd have installed tables for next time. But we had no right to insist on it, complain, make a scene, whatever. That's how they chose to run their business. (Not saying Rubys did this...they DID show us to a table then. But I thought it was just a bit silly in that the person seating us originally didn't even use their brain for more than a hatrack to note that not a one of us were going to fit in the booth he showed us to. LOL)
Roller coasters? I think someone mentioned that fairly well. Why would they widen the seats, creating LESS seats. Therefore, fewer people can ride it. They get to serve less people (less money), so they can accomodate those who are overweight. Same with theaters. They're looking for the buck. So you refuse to go there. They think...oh well. For every one of you, two people who will squeeze into two small seats will come in your place. So they get 2 times the money. It's the almighty buck. It's what they're in business for.
But take airlines, they DO have bigger seats. It's called first class. Which brings me to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevi-rocks
There is alot of $$$$ involved here. Thats the businesses bottom line. PERIOD! Businesses do what makes them the most $$$$. If its catering to larger people or MORE people geuss who wins. If for every one larger seat a corporation can make two or three small ones and increase the profit turns that's what they will do. It is certainly not personal.
Exactly. Less is more is how they see it. The more people they can cram in, the more tickets they sell. If one or two people refuse to come, they're STILL coming out ahead. And that's what they're in business to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaplods
My absolute favorite restaurant has booths, and tables with both armed and armless chairs. They also have a varied menu, with many healthy options. It's an upscale restaurant, and the healthy options taste great and look as good as the dishes they serve that are artery busters. Choosing the healthy option in a group, doesn't draw attention to my plate. Nothing seems to dampen a celebration for some people like watching a friend or family member eat that same sad piece of canned fruit with a big lump of cottage cheese.
I pay more to eat there, and don't mind because I know that they are catering to what a small client base wants, and treating them well.
The crux of the matter...you "pay more". Someone pointed out Wal*Mart. I'm a Wal*Martaholic. I don't WANT to pay more. So should I be forced to pay more when people complain about not having great fitting clothing for overweight customers at peanut prices to the point that they fix their overweight clothing line then charge the consumer? I think it was Jill said she shops at Lane Bryant. And she probably doesn't have much complaint then about the clothing. I shopped at Wal*Mart. AND...I DID use to complain...bitterly. I HATED that their shorts were two elephant trunk legs and their tanks had pits to the belly button. Til I realized that only *I* could fix the complaint...I could lose weight. Then I wouldn't have to worry about those shorts or tanks. AND, I could hit the clearance racks and really save money. I'm cheap. Can't afford, and never will buy Lane Bryant. And I really don't want to see Wal*Mart raise their prices because they try to accomodate everyone to perfection.
There are places that will provide accomodations, but they generally do cost more. We need to be able to understand that not everyone wants to pay the price for our issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaplods
Their focus on quality over quantity gets repeat business, and they don't seem to be suffering. While they could pack more people in, take less time with each customer, and charge less money, the owner chooses to consider pride as important an asset as his income.
When we lived in Bloomington, we loved a small, old-fashioned theater that was remodeled to replace all of the theater chairs with rows of soft chairs and couches. They served meals and had a bar. The cost was higher, and the movies were a couple months behind the big theaters (but they also had lots of fun old movies that the big theaters didn't show). The theater was often sold out, and the crowd was a little older, but not comprised of only fat people.
I would argue that BECAUSE my money is more precious, I have more right to complain. If you fit into the standard sizes, your choices are better, and you can find attractive clothing in almost any price range. You can also choose to shop at quality second hand stores to make the money go further.
If you have a quality problem, it is easier to wash your hands of the manufacturer and never buy from them again. I am not whining about this, it is simply true. If a manufacturer is going to cater to a larger client, then they can take the responsibility to do it right.
But if people complain (and sue - see below) to the point that smaller people CAN'T find attractive clothing in "almost any price range" (ie: cheap), then what choice will anyone have? There are stores that do cater to people with certain needs, and as you've pointed out, they do charge more for that too. I'm unwilling/unable to pay the more. That's why I spent years in frumpy Wal*Mart fat clothes and hated every minute of it. But if enough people had complained, Wal*Mart may either have fixed their plus sizes and raised the prices or done away with plus sizes altogether. Then where would I have gotten clothing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartButt
There's a great group of lawyers out here in Sacramento that go around suing little tiny mom and pop businesses who haven't put in lowered tables, ramps, or restroom stalls for those in wheelchairs. The lawsuits usually put them straight out of business. Perhaps we can recruit them to do this bidding?
I say this facetiously because it scares me to think that this is where the "fat acceptance" may go, if it hasn't started to already. My fiance is legally blind, so trust me, I know all about businesses having to accomodate people with disabilities, and advocacy groups as well. I worry that the mindset of "if they want my business, they'll accommodate me" will quickly go to "they WILL accommodate me, or I'll sue!"
But in today's world (we are fighting this fat battle today and not in the past, right?--even though the fat acceptance culture dates back to 1969), we know that homosexual does not mean unhealthy, nor does colored or non-Christian or tall or pierced
And just how do you think the change happened? Did people just wake up one day and decide "Hey, you know what, everything we thought about gays, or non-whites [btw, you might not want to use the word "colored" without putting it in quotes so that people know you yourself are not using the term-unless of course you are, in which case we might need to have another conversation] was wrong, silly us, how on earth did we get such silly ideas. Sorry, our bad.
No, people who cared about their community (AND people who were not part of the community but were willing to risk everything - sometimes including their lives - for equality and understanding) fought long and hard for that change. They yelled, and screamed, and rioted, and marched, and wrote, and sang and gave their lives in the belief that they could, no, must be able to make change if only they could get people to hear them.
Those battles aren't done, there is improvement that still needs to happen, but no one can deny that things are a lot better for a lot of people today, because of the power of the "group", than it might have been otherwise. And you are certainly free to think that "most fat people" are fat because they are lazy and have no self control, but I will not agree with you, and I can only pray that anyone who reads your words here will have the wisdom to question that assertion as well.
I see a woman in my office building smoking a cigarette almost every day on my way out of the building. She has little hair, is quite frail, speaks with a very deep raspy voice, and is often coughing when I see her. I assume based on my knowledge of cancer patients and what smoking does to you that she came to be in such poor shape because of smoking too much. It could be completely untrue--she could have other health problems that began long before or completely independently of her smoking habit, but based on my knowledge, until I speak with her directly, that is what I think. I look at her and wonder how she could possibly stand there and smoke another cigarette--I mean, doesn't she see what it's done to her so far?!
No...she doesn't. Neither does my husband. When we hit a financial rough spot, we decided to give up smoking. We both smoked our last 2 cigarettes together. Now when I smoked before, I did about 2 1/2 packs a day to his one. Yet, he was somehow more addicted (smoked for more years). I could easily step outside, and DID voluntarily. I wouldn't smoke in the house because of my daughter. Now, we have a son, and daddy still tries to sneak one in another room, thinking that smoke won't linger. And I constantly get onto him about it. ::sigh:: So I never had a problem with no smoking areas/buildings. Plus, I used to often take trips with my parents, in a non-smoking car. And I could only smoke during rest stops. So I was used to going long periods. I'd just chain smoke when I was able to get a cigarette...or a few dozen. LOL
After we smoked those last two though, I never looked back. Hubby did. He eventually took it back up full time. And...I've noticed his cough came back. I point it out, he swears he's always had a cough, or that he has a cold, or whatever excuse of the week. But I KNOW better. I missed that cough when we weren't smoking. But it's baaaaaaaaaaaaaack. And he's oblivious. But we all know it's only consciously. Subconsciously? He's knows he's just as full of it as we all know he is.
This has been a very informative discussion and I appreciate the forethought put into the responses. I , believe everyone has the right to be proud of themselves, their lives, their accomplishments, their dreams, their abilities, their families their education, their skin color, their sexual orientation or anything else that makes them who they are. I have been discriminated against based on both my health and my weight. I have had to buy expensive clothes (capris for $38.00 a pair) at Lane Bryant before and wasn't happy about it. I have also since been able to get them at Walmart now for $17.00 a pair. I have used handi-capped bathrooms because the regular stalls weren't wide enough. I have sat the ride out at amusement parks because the seat and bar was too small. I have parked in handicapped parking due to my illness and obesity both and had glaring looks from others. My illness isn't apparent from the outside and I felt people giving me dirty looks just because I was fat. I have had waiters at restaurants try to seat me in a booth when there was no way I could fit comfortably and if I did manage to squeeze into the seat, my boobs would be in my plate.
I read where someone was talking about the over-weight couple that was on disability and still using scooters to get daily junk food. The thought that occurred to me about their disability costing the "taxpayer" money is "are they on welfare or public assistance? or is this their disability social security money that they paid in for years while they were still healthy and productive?" There is a big difference. I have been drawing my disability due to my liver disease and the fact that my doctors say my immune system is so bad that I can't work. It is no one else's money. I worked 20 yrs. as an RN and this was taken out of my checks every time. The real crime here is that it took me over a year to start getting it and forced us to have serious financial problems during that time. Hiring a lawyer was the only way I could get it and many others with even health problems as bad or worse than mine have the same problem. It's not uncommon for the first check to show up after the funeral.
I do believe that each person needs to take accountability for their own health and weight but it doesn't happen over-night. There were times in my life that I was over-weight , depressed and lacked the energy to focus on it right then. There was other times that I was gung-ho to lose weight, dropped it quickly and gained it back. There was no one to blame but myself.
I will say that I am a strong, opinionated person and that I usually can't be swayed by a debate. But, after reading this, I feel that if anyone has been motivated, challenged or felt a little prouder about themselves because of this movement, then good for you. I wish you the best and encourage you to live life now, don't wait til the weight is gone. Life is too precious to be spent hiding due to fear/reality of what others might think.
I am disturbed by some of the posts that argue that it is somehow justified" to punish fat people for unhealthy behaviors, primarily because no one has been able to explain why we punish fat people for healthy ones. Why is a fat person at the beach or on a bicycle such an object of ridicule?
The idea that we justifiably punish fat because we know it is unhealthy, is pure garbage. Cultures value obesity when it is a sign of wealth and strength, and despise it when it is a sign of poverty and weakness. In our culture, obesity is much more prevalent among the poor. The factors are complex, but include the fact that fattening foods are the cheapest, and food becomes an even more central part of celebration.
Knowing this, and how hard I have battled my body all of my life, I truly resent all of the posts that obesity is "obviously" ultimately a choice. When I was much younger, I did eat significantly more calories than many (but not all) of my thin peers, I never said to a doctor "but I eat like a bird." The problem was the more I dieted, the less I could eat to lose (or even maintain) my weight.
Here I am, eating at 40, in a way that would have resulted in quite rapid weight loss 20 or even 10 years ago. Some of this is due to the fact that I am unable to be as active as I once was, but mostly my metabolism keeps getting slower and slower, in no small part, as a result of near constant dieting.
I wish I had gained my weight on unhealthy foods - I could have given them up. But my diet has always been well belanced under ordinary circumstances. I have never been fond of sweets or desserts (except during the evil week every month). I noticed this pattern early on, and while I've drawn attention to it to every doctor I have ever seen, none have been able to offer a solution. I can lose weight three weeks out of the month, and that fourth week around my period, I am a ravenous beast. I crave red meat and carbs, which not only add pounds, but aggravate my fibromyalgia. I know this, but literally feel like I will starve to death if I don't eat them. While I fight it as best I can, I can generally count on gaining some weight during that week. Often, too often, it takes two weeks to lose what I gained that week, and I have a one week window of opportunity to lose weight that month.
I was put on prednisone for an autoimmune disorder a couple years ago, and the doctor told me that I would inevitably gain some weight, because it would cause hunger like I've never felt before (I started on a fairly high dose).
The doctor was wrong. The new hunger, was no different than the hunger I experienced every month. I didn't gain any weight. I was too practiced at battling this hunger. In some ways it made it simpler (not easier, it was the most miserable six months of my life). Because I was hungry every moment,
I never was lulled into a false sense of security. During normal months, three weeks of successful dieting without much problem, lulls me into a false sense of security and accomplishment. Even though I know the pattern, it is unbearably difficult to feel a sudden loss of control, without giving in to it to some degree.
I literally have wondered, whether a hysterectomy would help or worsen the problem. I feel like a werewolf. If I could only be locked up during that one week every month, maybe I could lose the weight, and keep it off.
Weight loss surgery is something I constantly consider, even though I have risk factors that almost assuredly make deadly complications likely.
I'm not on the pity train, I'm just frustrated at being judged weak and stupid for "still" being fat. And even more tired still of being told I have all this choice I don't know about. I have put far more effort into losing weight than anything else I have ever done, including earning my bachelor's and master's degree, teaching college, being a probation officer...
I can truly understand even the need to temporarily or permanently get off of the diet roller coaster.
I would love for more people to truly understand the struggle before judging, but just knowing that some people do, is a help to me.
SmartButt--living up to your name, I see...love it
And no, andoreth, the change did not happen overnight. My point was simply that you could prove (whether immediately or eventually) those other examples were NOT unhealthy, but you can't do that with obesity. Yes, there are those of us out here (I am an example) who do not have any weight-related medical issues. I don't have diabetes or high blood pressure or difficulty climbing a single flight of stairs or any other problems with my joints or any of the other leagues of issues that plague the obese. But I'm lucky, and if I don't change things, I more likely than not will have such issues in the future. In fact, I already know I'm likely going to develop arthritic symptoms earlier than many due to my weight--can't be good on the joints for 20+ years, and I'm a prime candidate for very severe arthritis (my grandmother and all her sisters were wheelchair-bound by arthiritis, and my mother in her early 50s has been fighting it for years already). I'm likely going to get sick, and even if not caused by my weight, it will certainly be worsened because of it. I've done this to myself--not on purpose, mind you, but have done it nonetheless--and it is my responsibility to fix it. I attempted to fix it while in college. I was busy (working 2 jobs and having classes full time), but I don't think health should ever be put on the back burner. At one point, I made my social life a higher priority. I would eat with my friends at the restaurant where I worked (chicken fingers, loaded cheese fries, cheesey quesedillas...) and would drink heavily and eat junk at parties (pizza, subs, chips...). I had the time of my life! I was earning my degree, working hard, and partying hard. But clearly, I made the wrong choice. My panst were tighter, and the group t-shirts I needed for activities were snug, at best. I should have paid more attention to what I was putting in my mouth. If I needed to eat junk (and that was the one year in my life where I really did eat a lot of junk), I should have had far less of it. I'm glad you can justify your putting your health on hold, but for me, I guess it's not worth the trade-off to be educated or have a couple more friends if I'm going to be more miserable later in life or even have shorter life because of it. When I was working 2 jobs and was out of the house from 5:30am till 10:30-midnight, I was literally sleeping about 4 hours a night, but I was still able to watch what I ate (with extensive planning and packing) and lose weight. Easy? No, it never is. No one ever said it was. But worth it? In my opinion, absolutely.
I also don't think anyone here is saying that anyone else is "justified" in treating fat people badly. I see the frail smoking woman every day, but if she looks at me, I smile, not point and laugh. I do the same with the obese woman on the scooter at the grocery store with the Doritos and cupcakes in her basket. Maybe it's how I was raised or just what I've learned throughout life. Maybe we need to be focusing on children accepting EVERYONE of any size, shape, color, background, etc. rather than trying to make adults who have already learned what values and ideals they have change. It's so hard to change people's minds when so many fat people make fun of themselves or even other fat people--sadly, this I have seen much more than thin people making fun of fat people, almost like we fat people think we have a right to make fun of other fat people simply because we're in the same boat. I'm certainly not speaking for myself on this point, but I have definitely seen it happen on many occasions. Along the lines of what someone else mentioned, how can we expect "normal" people to respect us if we have such a hard time respecting ourselves? That does not mean we do not deserve respect, nor that it's okay for others not to respect us, but it is a viscious cycle--we feel unworthy because others don't respect us, so we don't treat ourselves with respect, and others see us not respecting ourselves, so they don't see the need to respect us if we can't even do so ourselves...It's not a good cycle or a correct cycle or a "justified" cycle, but it is there.
As an added edit after thinking a bit: I guess it's kind of like the opposing views here in this thread--I understand the opposing view. I don't think anyone who agrees with it is flat-out wrong or irrational or any such thing--we're all basing our opinions on what we have experienced and seen first hand in life. Likewise, I guess I just understand where some people are coming from when they feel negatively toward fat people. That doesn't mean I think it's right or okay or justified, but I do understand how they came to see things as such. Do I think it's okay to blatantly make fun of fat people? Of course not, but that, I think, is a matter of manners, which are in short supply today in many regards, in my opinion. I've seen people with bad acne get made fun of (and not just pimply adolecents, but actual adults). They may be eating greasy food or chocolate, and others might be thinking, "Man, how could they do that? It's only going to make their skin worse!" when in fact that skin condition could very well be caused by something else entirely, just as our obesity may be caused by underlying health issues or medications or what have you. It doesn't make it right, but we all do it on some level--it's human nature to apply your knowledge to what you see around you even though exceptions exist to every rule.
Making other fat people feel better about who they are is a good thing. I will agree that if the fat acceptance groups are about accepting yourself and are reaching out to those who feel badly about themselves, then again, that's a good thing. I, for one, never even heard of the fat acceptance groups/movement until I read about it online maybe a year ago. Had I been feeling bad about myself rather than confident and inquisitive, I probably would never have found it at all. So maybe the groups just aren't reaching or focusing on the right people? It seems to me they're not trying to inspire other fat people, but to alter the views of "normal" people (I use normal in quotes only because I think we all know plenty of thin people who aren't necessarily normal I use it in reference only to weight...hmm, maybe I will start using "non-fat"...heh, non-fat people in addition to my non-fat milk and non-fat cheese and non-fat sour cream... ).
None of us needs to be supermodel thin. I've had happy, confident, outgoing, popular size 16-18 friends. They don't get made fun of or discriminated against (or at least they don't blame fat discrimination whenever something goes wrong). Maybe it's where I live--maybe the east coast is nicer to fat people than other parts of the country, and maybe that has also worked to shape my current views.
Oh, and a quick note--hosts and hostesses at restaurants are likely doing their jobs robotically and are not intending to offend you by seating you in a booth if you won't fit. I've been there, done that (waitressing/hostessing), and even I made the mistake at times. After having made the mistake a few times, I started asking guests upon entry if they would prefer a table or a booth, and I'm glad I did because some people who I thought would not fit in a booth asked for one (and even then sometimes complained that the booth was too small ). Eh, to each his own.
Last edited by jillybean720; 07-12-2006 at 08:00 AM.
Like I said earlier in the thread: anyone who doesn't know what the fat acceptance movement does is invited to learn more about it before passing judgement.
Sure, sometimes people who define themselves as activists for the movement make it on the news- when this happens it will almost invariably because they are doing something that is directed towards the "normal" population. This is why it made the news. Go only by what you hear in the media and it's impossible not to get a skewed view about them.
An example: The San Fran group has a dance troup called "Big Moves". The founder, Marina Wolf is interested in promoting more body sizes in professional dance. Now I know more "about" the troup than I know the troup itself, but I am sure that Ms. Wolf has appeared on the news at some point "decrying the lack of larger people being represented in dance". If that is all that you saw about them, you might think "okay, here's a kook trying to force the San Fran Met to hire fat ballarinas" and dismiss her as an extreemist. But that would be completely ignoring the fact that because of the work she has done there are many, many, fat people who, several times a week, put on their leotards and sweatbands, turn to the wall-sized mirror, wait for the music to start, AND DANCE. That's called exercise, and art expression, and for a lot of those people it wouldn't have happened without Ms. Wolf's "activist" efforts. Then, add on all of the smaller groups, the groups in other cities, and the fat people in their homes who aren't quite ready to dance "out there" but are just beginning to feel comfortable with themselves enough to dance at all... well I'm sure you get my picture.
You will never hear me argue that being over-weight is healthy. Lots of things in life aren't healthy. Dieting for months on "the grapefruit diet" wasn't healthy. Following Atkins when it was also known as the "cottage cheese and hamburger patty" diet wasn't healthy. Taking speed disguised as diet pills wasn't healthy. I watched my Mom do all of these things, and more, in her desire to lose weight. I watched her ultimately fail each time because, of course, none of these were destined to offer long term success no matter who tried them. But she never thought "well, that doesn't work, what jerk thought up that idea", she always thought "what's wrong with me, I can't even make a diet work". And after a while she stopped trying because she finally decided that it was her fault for being "lazy and stupid".
I watched her go through this, and what I learned was that people were either "born thin", constantly dieting (and miserable), or fat. So as the years went by and my weight got slowly higher and higher I didn't do anything about it as I really did believe that any alternative would be worse. Of course, now I know I was wrong, but here's my main point: NEITHER my mom, nor myself, were or are fat because we are lazy or stupid. I fervently wish that my Mom, at some point when I was a child, could have come across someone who told her that diets (the way were marketed back then and how many are still marketed today) don't work. That getting up to jog or walk at 3:30 in the morning so that no one will see you isn't necessary. That you don't have to cry... but no one did and I can't change that. However, there are a lot of children out there today who's mothers are going through the same thing, and I appreciate anyone trying to reach them more than you can ever know.
I don't have diabetes or high blood pressure or difficulty climbing a single flight of stairs or any other problems with my joints or any of the other leagues of issues that plague the obese. But I'm lucky, and if I don't change things, I more likely than not will have such issues in the future.
Oh you are sooooooooooooooooooo right! For most of my adult life I have been overweight but was still very energetic and able to do most thing. Then the 50s hit! Mega joint pain, difficulty climbing the 3 flights of stairs to my apartment, ending up staying home often because it was just too difficult to go places... plus blood pressure starting to skyrocket and, to top it off, a huge thyroid tumor which fortunately turned out to be benign in spite of initial tests showing malignancies. I began to realize that if I did not get this weight off I was going to end up disabled... just from being FAT.
Get it off while you are young! Believe me, it gets MUCH harder. And yes, it WAS a choice I made. No of course I never consciously chose to be fat... but I DID choose to yoyo diet... on and off periods of really working on it and then choosing to go back to not watching as closely and eating junk foods, etc. When I decide that no matter what I am going to eat healthfully, exercise, get my doctor's input when needed, etc., the weight is coming off. I have to CHOOSE whether the results of losing weight... and no it is NOT easy... is worth the sacrifice!
I will NEVER be "proud" of my fat, nor will I tell myself it is "beautiful." That's not "putting myself down" as I consider myself a whole lot more than my body -- but my fat is NOT beautiful... it is ugly and I will never stop trying to beat it off!
I don't think anyone here has said it is "okay" to "hate" fat people or treat them badly because of their weight. But we are living in the real world and can't expect everyone to cater to us because we are overweight. Well we can expect it but it will never happen. It is not other people's fault that we can't do things because we are fat; we can join "movements" all we want but the fact is that it is impossible for others to solve our problems that result from our being overweight.
In any "movement" there are the extremists. In the "fat acceptance" movement there are those that say "You're not hopelessly worthless. You have worth and value (worth and value, not health) NOW, even if you don't lose the weight. Now get out there and LIVE - dance, exercise, engage in sports, laugh, date, have a career." They may even try to educate "normal" people that fat people have worth and value and can do many things people assume they cannot. It is sad that we may not be listening to them because of the people who say "Fat is beautiful, and everyone who is trying to tell you it is unhealthy is lying or mistaken."
The moderate (and the middle ground always has more members, you just may not hear them as often) view does not encourage people to stay fat or force anyone to male accomodate for us. It does however, educate fat and nonfat ppeople, and encourages fat people to have a life while trying to become healthier. In fact, having a real life, makes getting healthier a whole lot EASIER. When we're afraid to even be seen in public, it adds so much unneccessary stress to our lives. Stress that is unhealthy of itself, and contributes to unhealthy cycles like binge eating and depression.
The problem with debates, is that everyone argues against the EXTREME views, which rarely truly represents either side of the debate. The moderate views, that most could agree upon (or at least learn from) gets lost in the shuffle.
I am learning to care about myself more than others. I spent most of my life trying to find time for me, while always putting everyone else first. It is why I chose, and ultimately had to leave social service work. I worked so hard at everything, trying to prove to the world and myself that while I might be fat, I am neither stupid or lazy. If I had been willing to be mediocre (or at least perceived as such), perhaps things would be different. Can't worry about that now, though.
For now, I'm learning to do all of the things I was afraid to do because I am fat (for me, the "fat acceptance movement" helped me do this ). Ironically, this has offered the only hope I have yet seen for becoming less fat, and is helping me to improve all areas of my health (emotional and physical).
I will never argue the extreme view of the acceptance movement, but I will argue the moderate view. "Fat is unhealthy, but it is not a crime. Fat people should get out there and LIVE while trying to get healthier, it will make the journey SO much easier. And non-fat and formerly-fat people should do what they can to help fat friends and family do this."
When I was in my early twenties and weighed about 295, a friend and former college roommate asked me to be in her wedding. She chose a dress that didn't come in my size (at that time, very few styles did). I dieted like mad and managed to lose 70 lbs. I also hired an exceptional seamstress.
One of the other bridesmaids was also a close friend and former college roommate. When she was married a couple years later, I was not invited to the wedding, but I was the only one in our social group not asked to be a bridesmaid. All of her bridesmaids were very thin (and the dress was short and strapless - so I was at least relieved not to have to wear it).
I definitely don't mean to say I think that the second friend was obligated to ask me to be a bridesmaid, , and I don't blame her for not asking me to be a bridesmaid, but it did change how I viewed both friendships. While I had been equally close to both women before the weddings, I saw that the first friend had more compassion and strength of character.
As for the couple on scooters - well, I have a tough time relating obesity, which in my opinion is a personal choice, and incurable liver disease. It bothers me that the amount of disability for people with incurable and unforseen circumstances is too low. It should be higher, and there should be 100% drug coverage for people in these circumstances. Absolutely 100%. BUT, I have a tough time with people who self-inflict injury on themselves and expect everyone else to financially provide for them. And, my opinion is that obesity is a choice. And it is especially galling when people who have eaten themselves into a scooter continue this process, and expect everyone else to not only accomodate for them but to financially contribute to this habit. Because of my brain tumor, I am not able to work right now. I am not on any form of public assistance, but I am on work insurance that I paid for, for 20 years. At this point, I have lost over 75% of my income. I understand about illness and disability. And it bugs me that my taxes have gone to assist people who CAN reverse the course of their illness and cure themselves (something that I am not able to do) choose instead to complain about "size discrimination" and take public moneys to fund their illness.
Thanks for listening!
It's not only your taxes that assists them. Many of these people also worked for years and years and now their own taxes are in effect being used on them.
So, you see 2 people going down the street, each over weight and each in a scooter. Do you know how many times either has tried to lose weight and failed? How many times one or the other got the weight off, only to have it all come back. (How many of us here have had that happen?) What other conditions they have as well that are contributing to their disability that aren't visible from across the street. How many years they worked as valuable members of the community before being struck with their disability. How strong, and virile, and active and thin they were when younger and eating a lot.. only to mis-understand that they couldn't still eat that way as they got older (happens to a lot of us- ever look at an ex-football player?) How many hours they spend helping those around them, family and fellow community members, in an effort to stay valuable despite their disabilities?
Let's say they are on their way to the Donut Shop- do you know what they had for dinner the night before, or about the salad they might be planning for lunch today?
Do you know if either of them has completely lost hope because they believe just as strongly as you do that because they are fat and disabled they are a burden on the "good" part of society.
Assuming obesity is a choice (which I do not). How do we determine how much of a disability is caused or contributed to by "choice?" If a person with disabling liver disease aquired it from alcohol use or sexual contact (choices), are they not "worthy" of assistance either. What about lung cancer patients who continue to smoke? Various cancers have been attributed to life choices, do we only assist those who can prove they did not contribute to their own illness, or can prove they are now engaging only in behaviors that are optimally healthy?
The disabled fat person fighting to stay disabled is exceedingly rare. Can you find someone that fits that description?... I'm sure there are a few, but you will also find people who deliberately make themselves ill in order to get support and attention from others (Munchausen syndrome).
The vast majority of fat people will never receive a cent of public money for any reason (even non-weight related ones). The most vocal "fat activists" are exceedingly successful individuals making salaries much higher than the average (they're the only people with the time, money, and klout to spend time protesting).
What about a person who becomes disabled, and THEN becomes obese?
We can use extreme examples to make a point forever, but they're nearly useless to the issue at hand, because they are true of so few people.
If they passed a law that overweight people were ineligible for any public assistance of any type (including welfare for their dependent children) it would not eliminate the weight problem in this country. We need to address the real problems, not the imaginary ones.
The problem with debates, is that everyone argues against the EXTREME views, which rarely truly represents either side of the debate. The moderate views, that most could agree upon (or at least learn from) gets lost in the shuffle.
I agree 100%--well stated
The title of the thread says "proud to be fat." With that statement, I disagree wholeheartedly. While you can very well be both proud and fat (I know I am!), I don't believe anyone should be proud to be fat.
With encouraging those who are already fat to have confidence and a sense of self-worth, I do agree. With trying to change the views of the non-fat/never-been-fat population, I believe that takes place more on a personal level than by national activists. Small example: my sister's first husband did not like fat women. He had a conversation with my sister once and was shocked when she said that, yes, she would date a fat man if he had a good enough personality. He was stunned in disbelief because he held firmly that no matter how amazing a person is on the inside, he would never date a fat woman. However, he and I grew very close. We had similar tastes in music and movies and such, and when I went to visit them, he and I would even go out to the movies together and leave my sister home if she was in a bad mood or had work to do. A couple years later, she told me they'd gotten on the topic of fat people again, and he was much more accepting/open-minded in this later discussion. While he still said HE would never date a fat person, he was much more understanding about how someone else could. I don't think any amount of seeing fat people on tv or in movies or reading about how difficult it is to lose weight or all of the reasons OTHER than laziness/stupidity there are that cause obesity would have affected him at all, but having grown fond of me (and an overweight cousin of ours), he had a better understanding and, therefore, a greater respect. Is he a bad person because he still would never date a fat person? No...that's his prerogative. I would likely never date a man much shorter than me because I would just feel awkward. Does that make me a bad person? No...we all have limits in some regard (whether we're willing to admit to all of them or not).
I use it in reference only to weight...hmm, maybe I will start using "non-fat"...heh, non-fat people in addition to my non-fat milk and non-fat cheese and non-fat sour cream...
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