<3 Kaplods. I was going to post, but you've put into words pretty much everything I wanted to say.

Personally, I'd like to see advertising get to a point where women of all body sizes, even morbidly obese and very thin, are present. That way anyone can look and see people that are at least pretty close to their body type present. If it's representing everything, it's not forcing people into holes where only one body type is acceptable.

Basically I want to get to a point where it's not promoting a single body type at all. That way people can focus less on their appearance, and more on what makes them happy/healthy. Granted, I don't know how well that'd do for sales, which is really what advertisements are all about, so realistically I know my dream world isn't ever going to happen.. still, I like small changes like what sports illustrated is at least attempting to do. Baby steps!

This is the most dramatic post I've ever read. I feel this was directed at me but that's not at all what was getting at, nor do I think obese people should hate themselves and walk around depressed with a razor blade. Ridiculous rant. Sorry.

I think there are 2 things going on, yes I do think it's a step forward to have a plus sized model in a main stream magazine. It is nice to see someone who's not a size 2 and granted the woman is extremely beautiful.

But then they go ruin it with objectifying her for men's amusement. A woman's beauty and power do not reside solely in her boobs or skimpy clothes. She should not need to bend over like that to get attention. It's a mixed message and that message seems to be "you're fat and beautiful so you're worthy of being objectified just like all the others!"

Exactly, it feels kind of patronizing.

Back to what I was getting at before it's not just men, women look to these models to validate their body types as well which is why a plus-sized models I think are a good idea but I still disagree with morbidly obese. Not because I think women will suddenly try to become larger, but because it's sending the message that you can be 260p with a BMI of 42 and be healthy. Yes, I'm talking about Tess Munster. I have read through her FB page and all I saw was women jumping to her defense that she is healthy. Matter of fact, "she's probably more healthy than most thin woman and she works out four days a week" is the common response. Sorry, I vehemently disagree and because this is what her followers are saying then it is in fact sending the wrong message. If we're fighting against eating disorders like anorexia then why are we normalizing an eating disorder causing someone to be morbidly obese? There's a happy medium. Obesity is a disease and an epidemic and I don't think we should be glamorizing it in the modeling industry any more than anorexia which is also a disease. If she loves herself the way she is that's great. I'm happy for her, but shame on the modeling industry. Anything for $$$.

That's my personal opinion.

I think we need to look past a woman's eating disorder. We shouldn't look at a photograph and base out judgment on what the woman eats or doesn't eat.

I've honestly only ever really seen the "she's healthy, leave her alone" bit as a response to the "quit glorifying obesity, it's not healthy" crowd. If the first one didn't exist, the second would very likely disappear as well. Granted, there are some fringers on things like Tumbler that take it too far, but that can be said with any group of people. There's also a subset of people that think anorexia/bulimia is perfectly healthy and okay as well.

Women looking towards models is actually precisely why I want all body types represented. They don't look at models to see what's healthy, at least I've never known anyone to do that. It's far more common to see people looking at models to see what's pretty. Fitness, and actual health, don't really come into play. It's just thin versus fat. Having a wide variety, so there is no one body type people feel like they have to attain to feel beautiful, will allow folks to focus on things that actually matter, like health, instead of just the superficial side of it.

Now, I'm also very biased. An obsession with trying to be thin (like the girls in magazines or on TV) actually led me to where I am today. It also resulted in very dangerous diets, and severe restricting, attempting to become anorexic, and binging/purging. With each failure I gained more weight and hated myself more as a result and it was this horrid spiral that was very difficult to pull myself out of. Now that I've gotten rid of the whole shaming, I'm not beautiful, I don't deserve love stuff.. I've been sticking to a lifestyle change for months. So of course I'm going to want to promote a message that we can find love and beauty in all body types.. and then hopefully when people feel they love and care about themselves, they'll also care about their health because that's how it worked for me. The focus on vanity alone has been a staple for many years, and the diet failure rate has been extremely high. Probably because people want to just stop being fat as fast as possible, so they severely restrict and do things they can't hope to stick to long term. Then again, that could be me projecting based on my past experiences, but I'm all for trying a different approach. That different approach being working on the mental side first and foremost so people actually care about themselves instead of just their appearance.

Edited to add: That is not to say that everyone has to find everyone else attractive, as seems to be the common thing to say in response to the everyone can be beautiful line. However, there should be no reason that any person at all can't feel beautiful or attractive to themselves.

I don't know, we've had super skinny models for eons and all it has gotten us women is poor self esteem which lead to disordered eating and extreme dieting which results in weight gain over the long term. Maybe, just maybe if we saw women of all sizes represented, that young girls would think they are fine instead of thinking they are fat which is where all of it starts anyway.

I agree. I never know how to feel when well-intentioned people recreate the "plus-sized" version of something, like that thing with the Victoria Secret's spread or all the pregnant naked covers. Plus, as far as body image issues go I feel that most people (especially younger people) look to Hollywood actresses or singers more because they have a more consistent presence than models. Occasionally doing this "plus-sized" thing just seems like putting a band-aid on a more serious wound... if that.

The funny thing most people aren't either thin or fat--they're more in the middle. But anyway, honestly I don't care much how healthy other people are, and neither do most people. It does bother me when these people pretend to do care about health when they bring up the "glorifying obesity" argument though--it's just a dishonest but politically correct reason for their knee-jerk prejudice against fat people.

I've also noticed people seem to have a lot of problem when they see fat women feel confident about their bodies, usually evidenced by the clothing they wear. Seriously, whether or not those fat women have health issues is beside the point, a woman's body isn't public property and people need to stop feeling so free to offer their opinion on something that is none of their business. Most women have eating disorder issues exactly because people can't keep their thoroughly subjective opinion to themselves.

Is it weird that she has like...my goal body?

There have been plenty of "dumb" characters portrayed on tv, film, books over the years. They're fun, likeable, awful, mean, etc. just as the "smart" characters. I don't think showing a "likeable" "dumb" character means that they're promoting foregoing an education.

Why the fear if we show "Fat" people as being attractive?

I think when you peel away everything, this is the core of it. I agree that ultimately that's the message being sent here.

On the topic of a plus sized section, I completely agree that having a completely separate section is not convenient (which I think is what the stores think), its kind of embarrassing! After having my last baby, I was a size 18. I went to the Mall, and to several stores. In JC Pennys, the plus sized section was where the furniture was...completely separated from everything, down this hall and in a wearhouse like area...It was awful! The floors were the only ones not carpeted, and the "Dressing rooms" were the kind you would bring in as a temporary thing, I ended up taking my clothes to the "normal" ladies area to try them on. I'm pretty sure I posted about it here...it was so upsetting. I mean this example was extreme, but for the store to think that was ok. I remember feeling so embarrassed. Over the years, I typically don't maintain a weight that requires plus sized clothing, but that experience made that time between post partum and losing the weight feel a lot worse.

On promoting obesity...that's a tough call. I think that we need to remember what a model does. Its her job to look like the ideal standard of beauty. This means she needs to put her effort into looking attractive. Not just her body but everything else. Lets call a spade a spade and say some woman just don't have an attractive enough face to be models. Its mean, but true. Most of us, in fact, don't have the right facial features to be models. ....Would we want to see a model with acne all over her face? Or one that doesn't keep her eyes brows in check? If a woman is being paid to look good, she needs to put in the effort. This mean keeping her eyebrows waxed (and many other areas I bet) and her hair healthy looking, and her skin clear and her body in good shape. No, I do not think over weight women should be models. Women that are larger build, but at a healthy weight, yes. But an obese woman, absolutely not.

Obese and facially unattractive women can be present (and should be) in every other facet, acting, music, show hosting etc...There should be more women like Melissa McCarthy. She is a very talented women. She also happens to be very beautiful but she is obese. That should have no effect on her ability to succeed in acting, but should she be a model, no. (personally, I'd like to see her do some serious roles and break away from the stereo type of fat = funny, but that's another topic)

But there are plenty of woman in comedy that are fit but are not attractive, but their job is not to be attractive. However they shouldn't be models either. Adele is another example, she is not thin, but she is talented and deserves to be where she is, without having her weight questioned. I hate that these ladies weights are up for public opinion. Their jobs are to entertain and sing. They are not models and owe no one anything on their physical appearance.

But as much as an unattractive woman, or one that doesn't want to keep up her appearance (like hair, brows etc) shouldn't be models, neither should ones that don't put in the extra effort to keep their bodies at a healthy weight. I think different body builds should be represented. And a build is something no amount of healthy eating or exercising will change. But we seems to confuse over weight with large build. A woman that could be at a healthier weight, but isn't because she over eats, or makes too many poor food choices or doesn't exercise enough shouldn't be getting paid to model.

And when people say that well, she's exercising and eating well...ok but if she's over weight, then she needs to tweak it a bit because she's still carrying extra weight. And putting in 100% effort for her body is part of her job. So even if she's eating clean, she might be eating too much. Or even if she's exercising she might need to do a little more in the gym.

We talk about representing real woman, but real women are sometimes not attractive. I know I don't spend any of my time going beyond basic hygiene (I do shower and stay clean lol). I don't put on make up, I don't keep my hair in good condition, or use products to handle the sun damage I am just starting to see on my skin. I don't keep up on my eyebrows, and of course, I am over weight. I would not expect to get a modeling job unless all those became #1 priority to me and I looked the part.

Unfortunately, modeling in itself is a sad industry, that is meant to act as though all women look like a very small percentage, for the sake of selling products. And to be a model, you are supposed to be in that small percentage. Both by chance (born beautiful) and hard work (keeping your body and general appearance up to par). In the same way I don't think someone not funny should be promoted in comedy, or not talented promoted in music (although this happens, doesn't it) just to make us average folks feel better, I don't think women that are not giving their appearance and body 100% should be allowed in modeling.

^^I've never really given much thought to modeling as an industry, but I was under the impression the main purpose of models is to model clothes and show how clothes would look on actual human bodies, and for that to make sense models are supposed to be "average" people with all sorts of shapes and sizes because otherwise who are they selling these clothes to??

But if models need to look a certain way, then it seems to me that models exist mainly to fulfill some weird fantasies about what women (OK, some models are men, but let's be real here, how many teenage boys seriously entertain the possibilities of being models) should be like--which to me seems dehumanizing and needs to stop.

I realize models don't always model clothes, but that goes back to the whole sickening women's-bodies-are-used-to-sell-merchandise thing.

The idea that obese women should not be models is absolutely ridiculous when you consider one of the main purposes of fashion modelling is to give potential customers at least some idea of how they might look in the clothing being modelled.

I find it absoultely insane to find size 8-12 women modeling the clothing in a catolog or on a website that doesn't even carry clothing smaller than an 18 or even 24. Does it really make sense that the vast majority of plus sized models aren't remotely plus sized?

Is it really all that much to ask that clothing for fat people be modeled by fat models, and that clothing for very fat people be modeled by very fat people (or at least that the option to see such models be made available). I'm so tired of trying to guess what an outfit will look like on a woman my size.

I get that some people only want to see the "fantasy" model rather than one even slightly resembling the norm, but shouldn't more realistic (or at least more varied) options be made available?

Am I the only one who believes a model should be no smaller than the smallest size whithin which the modeled garment is actually available?

On the "runway" this may never be true, but certainly in a catalog, or on a shopping site there is an unaddressed need for a wider variety of models.

I have to buy much of my clothing online, and with fewer and fewer mail-order companies covering the shipping costs for returns and reordered merchandise, is it really so horrible to hope to see a variety of shapes and sizes represented?

I know the argument is made that clothing sells better on unrealistically thin models, but isn't that mainly because we're conditioned to expect it to be so?

And even if not, at what cost is such thin-centric advertising to the consumer? How much of the retail market is devoted to sellling clothing that is destined to sit in a closet, never to be worn, because the buyer expected to look better in the clothing than they do?

Taking some of the guesswork (even just a teeny tiny bit) out of online shopping for plus sized clothing sure would be nice.

Why is a fat model seen as advocating anything more than the rights of a fat consumer to see a somewhat close to accurate representation of the clothing for purchase?

I don't want to see a 250-350 lb model because being that weight is healthy or glamorous. I just want to have some idea of how my 300 lb self might look in the garment. Isn't that what models are supposed to be for?

We're long past the days when manufacturer's could only afford to hire and photograph at most, one model per garment. We have the technology to give consumers any size and shape model they wish to see. It just makes sense to deliver.

Seeing fat models doesn't promote or advocate obesity, it advocates and promotes wearing clothing that fits and looks presentable regardless of size. Some have argued they are the same, that making plus sized clothing available promotes obesity, but I don't know anyone who is fat only because appropriate clothing is available.

kaplods, excellent point. A few years ago H&M launched a plus size line. I was SUPER excited. Imagine my surprise when I saw that their models were thin women who had been photo-shopped to look plus sized. Gag. They looked absolutely ridiculous! Why in the world would anyone think that is a good business practice?

Sadly, even that I see as progress. Too often, plus-sized models are thin or even very thin models, photoshopped to look even thinner than they actually are.

At least photoshopping models to look larger, acknowledges that the models of plus sized clothing should be larger.

Although the trends in photoshopping (of thin and fat models) are troubling. Necks, arms, wrists, and legs are disproportionately thin and long, almost cartoonish.

And weirdly, it seems clothing is being cut to fit the cartoon. I've noticed an increasing trend of plus-sized clothing in the stores recently with bizarrly narrow sleeves. I'm sure there are some size 28-30 women with size 6 arms, but I don't know any of them.