Plus size models good or...
 

Just another way to feel bad about ourselves.

So lately, I have been seeing a lot more plus size models (and by plus size I mean over a size twelve) which great. I love that women like Christina Hendricks who is about a size 12/14 being celebrated. But does anyone find it annoying how ridiculously proportional these women are?

To me this isn't really celebrating different shapes so much as different sizes. I mean if I was a perfectly proportional size 12 I probably would be solely focused on health rather than health and weight loss.

I just don't see how celebrating these women who don't fit fit most people's reality is really any different than celebrating the stick thin image that was shoved down our throats.

Sorry, weird day and needed to rant.

I often find myself looking at these plus-sized models thinking, wow, okay if I had that flat of a stomach and was a size 12 I would be okay with it too! But I guess that's why they are models... they are extra ordinary.

That really isn't my issue. I just dislike this weird celebration of the plus-size model as though it is any different than the celebration of the skinny size model.

To me Kate Moss and Christina Hendricks are two sides of the same coin. And honestly, 50 years ago Christina Hendricks was the ideal. I just see so many of my plus-size friends who are very involved in the fat acceptance movement who are so happy because now they have someone representing them but are they really?

I don't look at a plus size model and see myself represented anymore than my skinny friends look at a skinny model and see themselves represented.

The truth is none of us, no matter our size, really being represented. I just have a hard time with hearing people say they are "changing" things for the better and I guess I just don't see it.

Originally Posted by Jez:
Exactly. They're models. We wouldn't be interested in "weird" or "ugly" people, no matter how much we want to say we'd love it.

Recently I was looking at a catalog and there was a model with a big gap between her front teeth. Her face was beautiful, but the gap was... well, it was just weird. Distracting, even. I felt really judgmental, but it's exactly as you say above.

I think models should represent the average woman's proportions but with better hair and make up :)

This is probably a bit OT but what really annoys me is photoshop. Just show the person as they really are. What the heck is wrong with that? It frankly pisses me off that they take a beautiful woman and nip her waist in even more, or slim her thighs or rub out a freckle.
Most of the time (excessive) PS looks WORSE, anyway.

Christina Hendricks is an actress and not a model...and she is absolutley stunning! Yes, she seems to have a chest that defies gravity, but I'm happy seeing actual normal sized women in adds as well. Nothing ticks me off more than getting a plus size catalog in the mail and having a size 6 model swimming in a size 12 outfit - not a huge self esteem booster.

And yes, of course, they are more beautiful than the average Jane, but they are actresses and models - they are paid to be pretty. I do get the proportions, but everyone is shaped differently - I think it would be impossible for the clothing industry to represent every single body type. If I was hot...I'd take the paycheck.

Originally Posted by punkrocksong:
Christina Hendricks is an actress and not a model...and she is absolutley stunning! Yes, she seems to have a chest that defies gravity, but I'm happy seeing actual normal sized women in adds as well. Nothing ticks me off more than getting a plus size catalog in the mail and having a size 6 model swimming in a size 12 outfit - not a huge self esteem booster.

And yes, of course, they are more beautiful than the average Jane, but they are actresses and models - they are paid to be pretty. I do get the proportions, but everyone is shaped differently - I think it would be impossible for the clothing industry to represent every single body type. If I was hot...I'd take the paycheck.

I used Christina Hendricks because most people know who she is and she is sort of the best example of someone who falls into the plus size category while not really representing the the average plus size person. (And like most actresses she has done some modeling.)

Again, this isn't about industry. More about plus size people claiming they are now being represented when I just think that is totally bull crap. I don't think the average thin person is represented either.


Sorry,, in a weird mood! hehe

I think I get it - the industry considers a size 10-12 woman plus size. You'll be hard pressed to find a 5'2 apple shaped woman who is a size 20 in any ads. I'm 5'9 and I would probably be the average height for a model, and that's completely unrealistic as I think the average height for women is I think somewhere around 5'4-5'5. The industry doesn't just descriminate against fat people, it discriminates against short people, people with less than perfect teeth, people that have blemishes and scars, really people that considered less than the ideal.

And it does stink, especially for teenage girls and women who strive for that kind of unrealistic perfection.

I get a little sensitive about Christina Hendricks...she's my girl crush!

I agree with punkrocksong, I feel more upset about the height of these models than the weight. Weight can be controlled, I can strive to look like a plus size model in terms of weight and fitness. There's nothing I can do about my unfortunate height.

And remember, the fashion industry thrives on causing anxiety. It is supposed to make you feel bad about yourself because that's what gives you incentive to buy their clothes and beauty products!

OP - I think I get your point. But honestly, as I've progressed into actually liking my body (despite wearing size 10 pants at 5'2"), it really doesn't bother me that my body type is not "represented" in the media.

What actually does bother me is that young girls and teenagers are exposed to said media and because they're so impressionable at that age they compare their bodies to those of the models and actresses and feel inadequate. That's what makes me sad.

ETA: Regarding plus sized models and flat tummies - shape wear!

That is a very interesting point, PatLib!

It might sounds stupid, but the plus size models, even if I am more than happy that they are now broadcast, were a bit frustrating to me, when I was wearing plus size clothing.

Seeing ads with this gorgeous plus size models who was rocking this shirt or sweater? In my mind, I was all OH YEAH, that means I can pull it off too!! But when you go to the store with your stomach sticking out while the models had a freaking flat stomach, the results were far from the same. It was frequently disappointing.

It is a bit OT but I think it can relate a bit too to this topic : I was reading a post on Tumblr the other day about someone criticizing the ''men don't prefer skinny women, they prefer woman with curves. It was shown in a survey that between Kate Moss and Kate Upton, a huge majority of men will prefer Kate Upton. So, see, women, don't panic with all being skinny and stuff, men prefer curves!'' (... it was not written that way, but you get the point).

Well, the girl who posted that on her Tumblr was P*SSED OUT. She was saying that getting a body like Kate Upton after losing weight is probably has hard as getting a body like Kate Moss and that it probably does not help any woman to state that this kind of body is a new standard of ''hotness'.

Well, I think at some point we need to own that it's the normal/average women who are buying the magazines, watching the shows, and supporting the fashioin. People just don't want to buy "average". If they did, that's what companies would market. They don't care how people feel about themselves, they sell what will be sold. All of this stuff is carefully planned.

I actually admire fitness models more than anything, I mean true fitness models liek (for example, if you wish to google), Myriam Capes or Adela Garcia. Those women are gifted but they also put in the hard hard work to look that way, and display their fitness/talents.

Originally Posted by ReillyJ:
This is probably a bit OT but what really annoys me is photoshop. Just show the person as they really are. What the heck is wrong with that? It frankly pisses me off that they take a beautiful woman and nip her waist in even more, or slim her thighs or rub out a freckle.
Most of the time (excessive) PS looks WORSE, anyway.

I don't think it's OT at all. I take all photos in magazines/catalogs with a grain of salt. There is a lot of air brushing and image editing going on. I'm not saying that the body proportions are impossible, but they are a rarity.

"To me Kate Moss and Christina Hendricks are two sides of the same coin."
A-friggin'-men to that, I get fed up with people saying, oh well, look at so-and-so , she's not rail thin and the media represents her! SO WHAT?! All these women have pretty close to the same features/faces. Give me a gap tooth, short model with a tummy pooch ANY day! I will make a SPECIAL effort to buy your products because of it! I know just what you mean, there is no real diversity...It's pathetic, and not at ALL representative of what this consumer wants! Plus size models are a small step in the right direction, but let's have more diversity in shape, height, and facial features please!

Originally Posted by PreciousMissy:
I don't think it's OT at all. I take all photos in magazines/catalogs with a grain of salt. There is a lot of air brushing and image editing going on. I'm not saying that the body proportions are impossible, but they are a rarity.

I know someone that got featured on the cover of a popular magazine for her weight loss (she's not a model, she's just someone that worked very hard to reach her goals). And they photoshopped the hǝll out of her, so much that I didn't even recognize her. In fact, I still struggled to recognize her after I saw her name in the article and realized it was indeed someone I knew. She literally had a completely different mouth and set of teeth.

Some people asked her things like, "You are already beautiful, why did the magazine change your appearance?" While I'm pretty sure it was the magazine editor's choice and not hers, she got angry and extremely defensive, asking people not to comment if they didn't have anything nice to say. I also noticed that the photos from the shoot carefully cropped out and/or blocked her "problem areas," but after what they did to her mouth I wondered why they didn't just photoshop the rest of her. She expressed disappointment when they didn't bother mentioning the name of her blog in the featured two-page article (which has been a very important part of her success). They even altered her personally-created recipe for the publication (after it hit the newsstands she mentioned she'd have to post the real recipe in her blog). They also greatly exaggerated how many pounds her plan could make readers lose in one week.

I thought the whole situation was terrible in a way . . . here she was with a massive 200 pound loss and an extraordinary story, granting her a very much deserved 15 minutes of fame, yet the real her still wasn't good enough to be published as-is. And when anyone pointed this out to her or mentioned that they didn't recognize her on that cover, she attacked them as a "hater."

This type of distorted reality belittles her individuality and does absolutely nothing to share her real story of inspiration. Instead it plasters out yet another unrealistic weight loss expectation and generic beauty ideals for the sake of selling issues.

Are these not plus sized enough???

http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2010...)--300x450.jpg

http://www.lite957.ca/blog/livinglit...a-Lacerda1.jpg

http://blog.julep.com/wp-content/upl...e-1024x762.jpg

http://snapcackleshop.files.wordpres...pg?w=500&h=321

http://www.georgiebdesign.com/home/w...ed-589x328.jpg

http://www.magxone.com/uploads/2010/...e-France-6.jpg

http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/19...87136f0c84.jpg

It is all about staging ....just like when you're trying to sell a house ....no one wants the reality how you truly live in the house ...they want the fantasy.

We buy the fantasy that gets us excited to purchase and shop IMO! Remember years ago looking through Sears Wishbook as a child ....I don't want reality....I want to be transported to Fantasy Island
Men Look at Sports Illustrated ....most guys are not buying magazines of average women with stretch marks and flabby tummies ....to get their engines going ....even those these probably are the women in their life.

Businesses are giving us visual imagines that visually excite us.
Studies have been done with infants that show they have preferences for pretty symmetrical faces.
Although it maybe PC to say we do not have preferences ....first impressions are usually based on appearances....
An adorable Baby face draws me in instantly .. Beautiful puppy face....Majestic Horse.....
If I want to see average I can look in the mirror ....but if I want dream about the possibilities and the fantasy I look to the magazines
I have Teenage daughter and her self esteem is not anyway diminished when she pages thru her subscription of 17 or her other magazines. She has her own look and is a very pretty girl....not what the magazine would be looking for...she gets attention since she was very young for having a different look...they have made a new Disney Princess that looks like her! Long Red Curly flowing Tresses ,with Porcelain skin and Green Eyes and Petite.
We work with what we are given and celebrate the differences in us all ,and appreciate the inherent beauty that we all possess ....even if it is not a marketable!:)
Roo2:carrot::carrot::carrot:

I'd love to see a greater diversity represented in the fashion industry. I don't believe your concerns are unfounded. First off the origin of the "plus sized" model was just ridiculous. Any model outside being super skinny is being labeled "plus size" and has difficulty getting "normal" modeling jobs. I will say that I'm much more angered by the super skinny model ideal that is being shoved in our faces, further enhanced by the extensive use of photoshop (even the models themselves don't look like their pictures). I know that there are some women that are naturally very skinny in the modeling industry, but there are far too many horror stories of models starving themselves to get/keep work. The ideal needs to be more like the average woman. From what I have read and seen, there are far too many gorgeous models that are between the super skinny model "ideal" and the more appropriately labeled plus size models that have difficulty getting work. In my opinion, these women should be the fashion model size norm. If sample sizes were larger models could normalize at what is a healthy and natural weight for them. In some ways this is changing too. This season H&M used a larger than "normal" model for their swimwear line without making a huge fuss about it.

There does seem to be a shift in the plus size model industry where retailers are asking for larger plus sized models. In fact, some plus sized models end up using padding to appear larger to suit clients. (It is sad that there aren't more jobs for them the size that they are.) Door are opening for larger models, though it is still harder for those larger models to get consistent work. I am hopeful though that this is changing too.

The bottom line is thought that they use the models that sell the clothing. As consumers, we can help to make changes in the industry by buying from retailers that use models with a greater diversity of sizes and body shapes.

They are all airbrushed within an inch of their lives...like all models and people who appear in magazines. Don't get yourself worked up over something that isn't even real.

Ok, this may be a little long, but I actually just wrote a research paper on media and body image, and I just wanted to share some of my opinions formed from writing it.

Super skinny models are ridiculous. Only 1% of the population even has the chance of being that skinny, less than 1% actually are. Also, these supermodels have BMIs usually only seen in people with eating disorders, and a lot of these models do themselves. So not only is the media sending a message to women that is impossible, it is unhealthy too. And then photoshop comes and and removes any imperfection and makes these models even skinnier...even these models we see aren't "perfect" enough without technology. Even the "ideal" isn't ideal enough for the media, and even being anorexic like many of these models are isn't skinny enough.

When it comes to plus size models, I think the idea is a good one, but only to a certain extent. Women should feel beautiful no matter what their size, but I don't think we should promote an unhealthy lifestyle, either. A size 12 being a "plus size" is insane. Since when is 12 a plus size? The media should change its standards to fit normal people. Have plus size models actually be a plus size in the clothing industry. But, I do think that if all women see in the media are plus size models, they will become okay with being unhealthy, and that is not good either. Being overweight is just as unhealthy as having an eating disorder and being underweight, and neither should be celebrated in the media.

And why are supermodels so TALL! There is nothing the average short person (like me) can do to change our height, so why make us feel bad about it?

So I guess what I am trying to say is, the media should promote women that are HEALTHY, bee they short, tall, skinny, or a "plus size," but going to either extreme is dangerous. Right now we are at the skinny extreme, but I think the plus size extreme could be just as bad. Women in the media IMO should be your healthy, average woman. There should be a greater diversity in height, body shape, size, and even so-called "beauty," but they should all be healthy.

Just a mention about photoshop, my business partner is photographer and an expert at photoshop. It is absolutley incredible what he can do to a model in photoshop. The weird part is, there are girls that he photoshops the h*ll out of, and they never ever say a word about it. they like it! There was even a girl who specifically said, "do whatever you need to make me look like a supermodel". At the end of it she didn't even look like herself, but she LOVED it.

I would actually love for him to travel around elementary and junior high schools showing kids what can be done in photoshop, to show them how every model is photoshopped like crazy and no one really looks like that.

I mean, you can even clone an entire person out of a picture! You can actually ERASE A MEMORY lol. That is crazy.

Originally Posted by Lecomtes:
"To me Kate Moss and Christina Hendricks are two sides of the same coin."
A-friggin'-men to that, I get fed up with people saying, oh well, look at so-and-so , she's not rail thin and the media represents her! SO WHAT?! All these women have pretty close to the same features/faces. Give me a gap tooth, short model with a tummy pooch ANY day! I will make a SPECIAL effort to buy your products because of it! I know just what you mean, there is no real diversity...It's pathetic, and not at ALL representative of what this consumer wants! Plus size models are a small step in the right direction, but let's have more diversity in shape, height, and facial features please!

But is the issue just about who these models "represent"? A big difference between Kate Moss and Christina Hendricks is that girls will starve themselves or become bulimic in order to lose and maintain a low weight to look like Kate Moss. But such drastic weight loss /maintenance would not be required to try to look like Christina Hendricks. (But maybe a boob job though). But in the scheme of things, if we're really worried about girls tried to emulate models or celebs, wouldn't you rather them try to emulate someone who is not emaciated?

Runway models are human clothes hangers; they are designed to show off the clothes.

Plus size models are never flat chested or apple shaped. It's more of the same.

Fitness models do huge cuts before shows and take diuretics.

Virtually all models represent idealized images of their product and are made up and airbrushed.

So exactly WHAT is the "average" woman's body shaped like, a pear or an apple? DDD breasts with sloping shoulders or A cups with wide shoulders? Thank GOD more designers are embracing designing ANYTHING for people that are shorter than six feet tall and a size zero. Just because a person is obese doesn't mean she carries her weight in the same place as the next person.

Originally Posted by krampus:
Runway models are human clothes hangers; they are designed to show off the clothes.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

"you rather them try to emulate someone who is not emaciated?"

My point is, young girls and boys should not be marketed such a narrow range of physical appearance...people shouldn't want to emulate another persons nose or eyes or boobs or being so thin the only means of them successfully emulating the ideal are starvation or surgery. I would rather people emulate traits that are attainable for them without going to these extremes, not that I begrudge people choosing plastic surgery, but I think it's popularity is symptomatic of a culture that places more value on looks than it should. Kids should be taught to emulate traits worth emulating. Loyalty, humility, a good work ethic, healthy habits.

Teenage girls being relentlessly surrounded by images of the model monoculture absolutely effects their self-perception. Countless studies have demonstrated this. That is nothing to snuff off as "Well, it's just the way things are.", as many people do. Well, the way things are have been known to change, and this mama isn't settling for any less. I don't want fantasy, I want reality.
It's not just about representing plus-size women, it's about representing a broader range of people, women, men, short, large noses, small noses, freckles, red heads, people with glasses, men without 12 packs, and so on.

I still feel most of you are missing my point. It isn't about the industry! :)


I am annoyed that every time there is model who is over a size 12 people get excited as though something has change. But a perfectly proportional size 12, 14,16, etc. is not change. Sorry it just isn't!

Most of those pictures posted those women are all hourglass and their stomachs are fairly flat. I just wish people would stop deluding themselves.

I mean for example, if A&F starts selling plus size clothes what exactly does everyone think the models will look like? I'll tell you they will be size 12/14 flat stomach, hourglass shape. How is that necessarily positive? I just don't see it. It is just another ideal that most people cannot achieve. And I don't see how a person getting plastic surgery to achieve that is psychologically better than having an eating disorder.

I guess this A&F thing just annoyed me on several levels! :<

Originally Posted by PatLib:
I still feel most of you are missing my point. It isn't about the industry! :)


I am annoyed that every time there is model who is over a size 12 people get excited as though something has change. But a perfectly proportional size 12, 14,16, etc. is not change. Sorry it just isn't!

Most of those pictures posted those women are all hourglass and their stomachs are fairly flat. I just wish people would stop deluding themselves.

I mean for example, if A&F starts selling plus size clothes what exactly does everyone think the models will look like? I'll tell you they will be size 12/14 flat stomach, hourglass shape. How is that necessarily positive? I just don't see it. It is just another ideal that most people cannot achieve. And I don't see how a person getting plastic surgery to achieve that is psychologically better than having an eating disorder.

I guess this A&F thing just annoyed me on several levels! :<

But a size 12 with a flat stomach is a step in the right direction. They can't go from having size 2 models to size 14 with big bellies on display. The change needs to be gradual.

Originally Posted by punkrocksong:
I think I get it - the industry considers a size 10-12 woman plus size. You'll be hard pressed to find a 5'2 apple shaped woman who is a size 20 in any ads.

This. Since when is a 10-12 considered plus size?? Whenever I see these plus sized ads, like in the Nordstrom Catalog, I find myself thinking, finally! An average sized woman! She doesn't look "plus size" at all.

Originally Posted by Candeka:
But a size 12 with a flat stomach is a step in the right direction. They can't go from having size 2 models to size 14 with big bellies on display. The change needs to be gradual.

Sorry but trading one minority for another isn't a change. Also, 100 years ago it was the ideal and people were telling women to look that way. Hence corsets to make it look as though you had a flat stomach big boobs and butt. If you really think about it we are going backwards. We are still allowing people to dictate what "beauty" means.

Originally Posted by PatLib:
Sorry but trading one minority for another isn't a change. Also, 100 years ago it was the ideal and people were telling women to look that way. Hence corsets to make it look as though you had a flat stomach big boobs and butt. If you really think about it we are going backwards. We are still allowing people to dictate what "beauty" means.

We are not trading anything. We are embracing ANOTHER body type. Instead of "this one" instead of "that one" - both body types are becoming more acceptable. Yes, the "new" body type we are embracing is still a minority, but it still shows beauty in another form as opposed to just the size 2 skinny model which by default includes more woman. So, instead of just 1 body type, there are now 2, so hopefully one day we will get to 3 and 4 main body types being shown on mannequins or in magazines.

Originally Posted by Lecomtes:
"you rather them try to emulate someone who is not emaciated?"

My point is, young girls and boys should not be marketed such a narrow range of physical appearance...people shouldn't want to emulate another persons nose or eyes or boobs or being so thin the only means of them successfully emulating the ideal are starvation or surgery. I would rather people emulate traits that are attainable for them without going to these extremes, not that I begrudge people choosing plastic surgery, but I think it's popularity is symptomatic of a culture that places more value on looks than it should. Kids should be taught to emulate traits worth emulating. Loyalty, humility, a good work ethic, healthy habits.

Teenage girls being relentlessly surrounded by images of the model monoculture absolutely effects their self-perception. Countless studies have demonstrated this. That is nothing to snuff off as "Well, it's just the way things are.", as many people do. Well, the way things are have been known to change, and this mama isn't settling for any less. I don't want fantasy, I want reality.
It's not just about representing plus-size women, it's about representing a broader range of people, women, men, short, large noses, small noses, freckles, red heads, people with glasses, men without 12 packs, and so on.

I agree with you. But how do you propose to fix it? You sort of have to hope for the lesser of the evils, because its wishful thinking to think that the industry is going to change on its own. PEOPLE would have to change first. If companies sold more goods and services by using models who look like people you see every day -- they'd use them! So, whose to blame here? Is it the industry? Or is it us, the consumer? Chicken or the egg. Look at the type of TV talk shows that exist today. You see less and less of real discussions, and more exploitative garbage like Jerry Springer. Is it the media's fault for giving us these options? Or, is it OUR fault that the ratings for these shows are higher than the shows that are more hard-hitting (I meant hard-hitting topics, not guests who hit each other hard during the show).

But to get back to the topic, the reason why this all matters is because of the effect it has on impressionable young people. While it may be annoying to adults like us to see models that are not representative of us, does it really matter that much to those of us who are not impressionable? I'd say no. Its the kids that matter.

I've met Kate Moss. She's short like me and has terrible skin.

Weird and slightly off topic but what is plus-size anyways?

I mean some people here don't consider 12 plus size but I know a girl who is 5 feet tall and most definitely considers herself plus size just because the amount of weight on her frame even though she is a 12.

I just reached a size 12 (yeah me!) but I don't really consider myself plus size anymore but I am 5'7. I mean a size 12 on 5' is very different than on 5'7.

I think that is why this whole thing bothers me. I just don't even get how we can even identify plus size, normal size, too skinny, etc. Ultimately these models are just lucky that their fat (no matter how much or little they have) ultimately settles in all the right places. And that is why I have a problem with them, the plus size models simply have good genetics which makes their weight attractive while my fat makes me look pregnant. It just isn't a reality for most people.

Originally Posted by Jez:
We wouldn't be interested in "weird" or "ugly" people

Well, I guess my chances are out there window, then. :o lol




But on a serious note, I'd rather see a normal girl with a few freckles, or a gap in their teeth, rather than a person that is supposed to represent something, but don't really fully do it. And yes, if you ask me, I think I can see what the original poster meant on some of it. I mean, if you are going to advertise clothing, and supposedly put it on people that have a figure like you, it might be nice to actually see that... That's how it'll look on me? Really. OK, then ...

There's a lot of interesting research in the fields of psychology, sociology, and market research that has found that even the people who say they want to see larger and more averagely proportioned fashion models, and say they'd prefer to buy from companies that feature those models, their purchasing patterns tend to say otherwise.

I don't think the fashion industry makes their model choices based on anything but consumer preference. If customers only bought the clothes seen on 5', 300 lb models, then that's what models would look like, and the tall, thin models would all be out of work.

I do like to see and shop for clothes from catalogs that feature larger, curvier models, but I also know that I can't ever entirely escape my cultural upbringing and perhaps even an inborn physiological tendency to prefer symmetry and hourglass figures.

.... but in terms of the fashion and entertainment industries, they're going to do what ever makes them the most money... which ultimately we are driving both. Unless consumers really want (not what we say we want, but then reject when we get it).