My grandmother was born and raised in Oklahoma. They came out to Washington when my dad was a little boy of 8 years old, but the customs and courtesies came with her. Once when we were getting ready to eat buffet-style at my parents' home, she saw people getting their plates and exclaimed, "Shouldn't we serve the menfolk first?" I don't think it's got anything to do with who is better or weaker or whatever; for her, I am guessing it's a holdover courtesy from days when the men had spent long hours working outside in the field or the orchards and were tired and hungry.

Of course we are equal. But I enjoy the little courtesies that men and women extend to one another. The guys at my office always open the door for women when we are going through together, and some of these guys are under 30. But if he's carrying something and I get there first, then I will hold the door for him. It's just courtesy.

Well, obviously I'm in the minority opinion by far. I'm not upset about that, and I'm enjoying reading the various points of view. I still don't get the logic, though, in claiming equality and yet expecting special treatment. Not that I'm going to protest when a man does extend courtesy.

I think Cali Doll explained it best, though. We *are* physically different. But "let the women eat first, just because they are women" makes no sense to me. Now, "sir," "ma'am," "Mr. Jones," "Mrs. Roberts," that kind of stuff ought to make a major comeback. (Oh, and Mindi--in my way of thinking, any adult is a "sir" or "ma'am." :D )

I have to say, when a guy goes out of his way to be a gentleman it makes me uncomfortable. Taking two steps ahead of you to open the door for you, okay that's fine. But when a guy opens your car door lets you get in and closes it for you before going to his side of the car, that makes me really uncomfortable. Likewise, I don't like when guys pull out your chair for you to sit down. I'm all for the stuff that's common courtesy, but when they go above and beyond I find it super akward. I think because it's too formal for me. If we can't be casual, I can't be comfortable.

As far as ma'am and sir, well, my Mom's side of the family is very casual and my Dad's side is very formal. So we manage to fall in between. When I'm working in the service industry I call all female customers ma'am and males sir. I never say miss, even though I know it's more acurate for younger women and female children. For some reason saying miss feels odd to me. As far as with family, I never address my parents as ma'am and sir. When I was younger I addressed my aunts and uncles on my Dad's side as ma'am and sir mainly because that's how my cousin's addressed my parents. But in the same regard, I never felt as close and comfortable with my family on my Dad's side as I did my Mom's. More recently, since I'm now an adult in the family and most of my cousins are as well, I feel like I'm closer to my Dad's side of the family than I used to be. But we're all a lot less formal now too. (To give you an idea of the formality on my Dad's side when I was younger, many parents say to their kids "You wouldn't do that if you were dining with the Queen of England, would you?"... my parents said "You wouldn't do that if you were eating at Aunt Barbara's house, would you?")

Call me old fashioned, but I think everything you said in your original post is something I don't mind. I know there are women out there who think that they should be as equal as men and so on. I think in the respect that we (a man and a woman) are both people, that's true, we should be equal people. But, I like when a man holds the door for me, when he says ladies first, when my husband can make enough to take care of both of us so I can stay home and have children, when he comes home from work and I can dote on him, when he's had a hard day and I can be his comfort without the stress of my own job (not that children aren't stressful at times)... The list goes on... I know that I'm an old/young person at the age of 25... I'm all for women who want to be in power positions, but in my experience they don't handle it as well as a man.

Keep in mind these are all our own opinions. Ok, commence the attack...

I think you can't always instantly mentally abolish something that is so ingrained. I have no problem with a man using traditional manners, and I also don't care a great deal if our interactions are more eqalitarian.

However, I hate if someone has to make a point of how they are using "manners" or make a point of how they are treating me "equal." Just do it, or don't. They make it so self-conscious and awkward, and *that* is really off-putting. It just shows that whatever you're choosing, you're not confident or comfortable with it.

Overall, I think many men do not respect women and that there are a lot of crimes and discrimination against women still in this day and age. It would be nice to be treated as an equal and obviously women have come a long away but it will take a lot to get to a point where we are treated as equals in all things.

I would also say that I am fine with whatever women decide within their own family. There are women that want to be stay at home wives/mothers. For me, it is the last thing I'd ever want. Even though financially we could do it, I like working, like persuing academic endeavors and like having my own life outside of my husband. We are closely bound together though more so than I ever thought I would be with another person. We don't have children and most likely won't have children because it is not part of our future plans but if we did my husband said he would like for one of us to stay home if we did and I said well it wouldn't be me so there is that :)

Also, women can be successful in politics, business and whatever endeavors although it is somewhat of a doublestandard because they are often accused of acting like a man when they are in a business mindset. I work in a company where a lot of our higher up executives are women and they do a great job.

I am a techie though and have no aspirations at management :)

My wife washes her own car...

she pumps her own gas...

she knows how to mow the grass (if the gardener can't come)...

she can put out and bring in the trash cans if I am out of town or she beats me to it...

she can change a headlight...

on the other hand.....

I open her car door if I reach it first...

I place her in front of me as we go up for communion...

I open doors for her AND FOR ALL WOMEN OR ELDERLY....

I think the key word in all of this is R-E-S-P-E-C-T :)

I teach my students respect, both the girls and boys. I hold open the door for them and most students (we have 960) hold open the door if I'm behind them or they see me coming.
I think it's a beautiful thing :D

:dizzy: The majority opinion may be absolutely right.

Today I caught myself about to say, "Please, there are ladies present," to a man whose language was less than tasteful. Then I realized, if I'm going to take a stand against special treatment on the basis of gender, I'd be a hypocrite if I said that.

As for stay-at-home moms, I was one for the longest time. Only recently have I seriously embarked on the career path. My first husband was very quick to remind me that he earned money and I did not, therefore he supposedly had control over all major household decisions. (My father had been the same way. I didn't know any better.) My children are raised now, and I'm a grandmother. I've enjoyed being a homemaker, now that I have a husband who respects homemakers. But let me tell you, I'd be the first one to yell if someone were to tell me I have no other option but to be a homemaker, simply because I am a woman. The days of "a woman's place is in the home," and "no wife of mine is going to work!" went out with Fred Flintstone, I think.

One more point: I am a Christian, and as such I follow where the Bible tells the wife to submit to the husband. Here again, my father and my ex-husband were alike in abusing that passage of scripture. In any disagreement, they would trot it out and play it like a trump card. "It doesn't matter what you want. The Bible says I'm the head of the household, so I get my way." My current and forever wonderful hubby does not do that. In the years since I've been out from under the control of first my father and then my ex, I've learned:

1. "Submit" doesn't mean "be still and let him walk on you."
2. That's "wife" to "husband," not "all women" to "all men."
3. "Head of the household" does not mean the almighty dictator.
4. The verse directly following "submit" tells men to treat their wives with love and honor.
5. Nothing about "submission" leads logically to the notion that women should stay home, or be mere appendages to their men.

I often say I'm not a feminist; I'm an egalitarian. I believe equality works both ways, and I also firmly insist that one doesn't have to bash men in order to affirm women. Not that anyone here is doing that. I'm just making an observation in general, having seen a lot of the "men are dogs" attitude associated with women's rights.

Stepping down off the soapbox for now. I'm going to bed early tonight.

this conversation is getting more and more interesting! I think that it is definitely a double edged sword- women fought and fought to be treated equal to men, yet many still hold on to older traditions that in effect would make them unequal. We haven't have it both ways.

Do I like it if someone holds a door open for me? Sure- but that's because I always hold doors open for other people. PEOPLE. not men, women, the elderly. I also let people with two items go ahead of me in the store when I have a cart full. And I make sure to move out of the front seats on the bus if someone looks like they need those seats. I would be pleasantly surprised if someone did it for me. I certainly don't expect it though.

What I think is interesting about the bible passage regarding wives submitting to husbands is that it's followed by advise to the husbands generally in many translations using words to the effect of "husbands likewise love and cherish your wives."

To use the word "likewise" it has to be referring to a similar action. It would make no sense to say, "Wife sit down, husband likewise stand up," because likewise means that the actions have to be similar (it's the definition of likewise).

The "submitting" and the "cherrishing" have to be more similar than not or the "likewise" part makes absolutely no sense (so that loving and cherishing probably is supposed to entail listening to and respecting wife's opinions and not pushing her into choices she has no imput in making).


As to courtesy - it's all societal convention. In no society are all individuals treated exactly the same. Children, men, women, elderly, rich, poor, garbage collectors, kings....

There are few if any "polite" actions that wouldn't be considered rude, taboo or at the very least, odd in some other culture.

In cultures where the men eat first, it would be considered odd if not rude for the women or children to eat first, and vise versa.

To a large degree etiquette is always at least partially arbitrary. Why is "giving someone the finger" a rude gesture? The "ok" hand gesture (making an o with your thumb and pointer finger while the rest of your fingers are held upright) is an extrememly rude gesture in some countries.

Etiquette in most modern societies is also always changing, so what is polite and common courtesy today, could be rude or meaningless tomorrow.

I find it all interesting, but not particular irritating. I am fascinated by other cultures, so I love learning about the customs of other cultures. The more cultures you learn about, the more interesting it is - and the more tolerant you become to even customs that would seem bizarre, meaningless or even rude to you.

I often thought about these things, too, also in terms of dangerous situations in films: "Ladies and children first!" Remember this poor bloke in Titanic who even clutched someone elses toddler in order to get into some of the boats? I actually felt sorry for him, even though he was portrayed as mean and selfish in the film.

It`s assumed that men are more brave and hardy but they are not always. "Women and children first" is politeness and sometimes even heroism, but it is also fvouritism.

There are many instances where women and children should go first merely because of their physical limitations. In the Haiti relief efforts food rations are not given to men. Only women are allowed to collect the food. They made this rule because when the food was given out at first men beat the crowds with sticks to take the food first, and then they sold it on the black market. In this case they trusted that women were more likely to take the food back to their families. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=123202099

I wish there was more courtesy. I can't tell you how many times I enter a subway train and see men sitting with their legs sprawled out taking up 3 seats. I can't tell you how many times I've entered the train holding bags and nobody would let me sit. I can't tell you how many times I see elderly women, pregnant women, or mothers with babies standing while these men sit with their laptops or sleeping. It is infuriating because I myself give my seat to anyone who needs it more than I do.

I think the feminist movement has backfired on us ladies. We still don't have what we need (jobs that pay as much as men's) and now we don't have what we want (common courtesy).

LOL, although there are many times I can be shy when I shouldn't, that one would not stop me. That is one thing I have no patience for! I do not volunteer to use up only half of the already tiny space in a public chair. Actually, this happens plenty in private spaces too. Acquaintances, friends and even family do this too.

But generally, I find most people are pretty accomodating and helpful to others.

I wouldn't say you were "not right". ;) It's your opinion and I see what you're saying. I think you feel that some women want it all, equal rights and being treated like a lady (different) too. I get that. Double standards suck.

But I'm in the majority on this one. I'm all for equal rights for females, but if I can birth the baby, my husband can open my door. LOL! It's just nice and it makes me feel special. I love it when a man opens a door for me. I am actually teaching my sons to do it, because though their father leads by example, he's never actually said, "Pssst....open the door for you mother." So I ask. "Son, will you please hold the door for me?" And I ask him to do it at restaurants for others as well.