Here are some of my thoughts on churches ~

I believe that all $$$$ comes from God.

I believe that there are multitudes of churches that are worthy of God's Blessings.

I think it wonderful that Christians meet in small groups, neighborhood homes (one down the street from me)...

I think it is wonderful Christians meet in small churches where the minister lives on the property (one around the corner from me)....

I think it is wonderful Christians meet in larger buildings that have schools and have a congregation of over 1,000 (me :))

and that some mega churches have well over 2,000 people and massive beautiful buildings....(2 within 5 miles of me)...

I see nothing wrong with any of these....and these are just an example.

My church is in the process right now of building a gymnasium and other classrooms. The money will come from members in our congregation. Money given because we want to.

The building will be used for school activities, community activities, Angie's yoga classes ;)....many people will come to the building over the years to hear the WORD.

We already have a huge Thanksgiving meal planned with some of us bringing local Marines training at the base near us.

We are spending around 4 million dollars for the building....we spent over 3 million dollars over the years to build classrooms and a sanctuary we are proud of.

I have been going to my church for over 25 years. When we were smaller we helped people....through gifts of food and assistance...we are much larger now...we help more people.

Sure, 4 million $$$ will buy a lot of food....but a building bringing in people for many-many years, with their gifts, God willing...will spread much further than our original 4 million.

The bigger my church is, the more opportunity we have to share the GIFT and the WORD.

HE created us all different, we all feel at "home" in different places of worship.

I understand that the bigger the church the louder the "corruption"...but I would bet that percentage wise....the corruption and sins are about the same in all churches. We are all sinners...things will happen with $$$ that is not pleasing to God...but then again, as we seek to be more Christ-like...we just may do the right thing with our $$$ to help others from time to time...

I will taking my bag of groceries to put in the pantry tomorrow...I can assure you that by next week that pantry will need more...

times are tough...my church can help a lot of people...and we do :)

OK ~ the question was "Do you believe in god/religion?"

YES!

that better?

That sounds like zombie talk... (jk) ;)

:)...funny stuff!

Yes/no...

My shortest post EVER!!!

:lol:

Kira

I believe in God, I believe in all spiritual gods across the board.

I'm not a big fan of religion though. The organization of guilt is something I find unnecessary within the walls of church. I don't take all stories in the Bible as truth, as it is simply a book written by men where as someone stated earlier "in the absence of truth" filled in the blanks with their opinions and interpretations.

I'm very spiritual. I believe angels walk among us and guide us when we lose sight of our spiritual lines. I believe God is within everyone. I like to think "God is in our hands" more than "we are in Gods hands".

Yeah.

This was a good topic.

I was also raised in a church.As I grew up I quickly realized that there is far to much evil in this world to buy into the god thing.Where the heck is he???Ive seen far to much........

My ideas
 

I didn't post on my own thread... how could this be??

I'll just briefly explain my ideas and such. I don't believe in god/higher power/divine creator. However, I don't consider myself an atheist. The term atheist makes me think of a group people who get together to discuss the non-existence of god. To me, this is exactly what a religion....getting together to discuss the existence or non-existence of a higher power. So I just consider myself to be a free thinker/non-believer.

I support the ideas of science, meaning, I understand the concepts and accept the ideas of evolution. Meaning, life evolved slowly over billions of years. Please note this does not mean people evolved FROM monkeys. No, think of it as you and your cousin. Did you come from your cousin? No, but you do have a common ancestor, and that's what is meant by chimps and humans evolving from a common ancestor. Also , through evolution, each Creator, plant, living thing had to find it's niche, or it's "job" in nature. For example, woodpeckers evolved into what we know as woodpeckers, and developed a harden skull because those select few who had harder skulls were able to eat and to survive and therefore those traits for ah ard skull were passed on. For humans, people don't have claws, aren't terribly fast or have some other external defense weapon. So logical thinking was the niche we found to fill. Those who maybe had advance logical thinking, were able to pass those traits on.

I believe the bible is fiction and someone who resembled Jesus did actually live, but he wasn't the savior many people know him to be; he was actually the ultimate con man who tricked everyone into believing the son of god, and people believed him because they didn't know any better. The bible was written from the word of god, and is entirely fiction. It contradicts itself on every other page, and goes as far as telling bold face lies such as, the world is flat and the world is only 6,000 years old. Yet, we know through carbon dating, half lives and other dating methods that the world is actually billions of years old. I will give it its credit that teaches basic moral concepts, that are good guidelines to live by, however, anyone with half a brain could reason themselves that "killing thy neighbor" isn't exactly a good thing to do. So really, the bible is unneeded as a teaching tool.

Lastly, I don't support organized religions. On one hand, I see the value of religion: community support, people who share the same beliefs and understand you, something to do during the week, etc. However, I don't support the manipulation of ideas, the controlling ways, the rules and regulations, etc. You can all you want your church is different, it's understanding, but it really isn't...what if you were gay? Would your church approve? What if you just didn't want to go for a month...would your church be cool with it? What if you question the existence of god, your church leader would do everything they could to convince you otherwise.

So...that's a brief explanation of my ideas.

What is a day time atheist?

Excellent points

:D Funny story PRIMM! That is so typical of us isn't it? As people, not only Christians, we know right from wrong and yet we lean to the "wrong' side often. I found myself doing something similar to this a few weeks back. I was at the store to purchase some food for our church pantry, there is a big need in our area now, anyway I had a "budget" for the trip (don't think for one minute I could not have afforded a little more $$ either for the cause) anyway I was set to buy 10 cans of soup/spaghetti -hamburger helper-mac & cheese (things requested)....well I saw that the spaghetti/raviolis were only .88 a can vs. $2....I bought the "crappier" stuff and saved a few bucks...I could have at least bought 20 cans! Felt like a jerk after I left the store....I did go back and buy more later...but it was my first action that I messed up...but I am a work in progress! :)

There is a lot of evil in the world! There is also a lot of good too. God allows us a wonderful gift of free will ~ without it we would just be robots/puppets...men make mistakes...God does not...He is there with you always. I will tell you though (and I am not intending to be preachy...just as a3FC friend) You cannot understand what you posted in your head...but if you have a personal relationship with Him you can understand it in your heart. I pray you find your answers ~ Gary

I think there is a forum under Faith-Based groups for prosthelytizing...
Kira

Hey thanks KIRA! I think I've seen it.

Off to church now!

I'm not a Christian, but really, from a literary/historical perspective I have to disagree with this. But all records - those in the canonised Bible and elsewhere - very few people subscribed to the teachings of the historical Jesus/Jeshua (I think it's almost certain that such a person did exist). He was a dissident in an extremely powerful empire, and executed as a criminal along with countless others. In his own time he can hardly be called a large-scale conman, whatever you think the intent behind his words was, simply because he didn't have that much of an impact. After he was dead, ethicists like Paul of Tarsus and the gospel writers built the reputation he has today.
On another note - yes, the Bible contains a great deal of fiction and is extremely self-contradictory. Don't you believe in the value of fiction/myth? So does the Illiad, so do the surviving plays of Aeschylus, so does the entire canon of Shakespeare. That doesn't stop them being beautiful, valuable, honest, passionate, searching creations and thus morally instructive in themselves.

No problem, Mr. EZ!
Just trying to be appropriate and respectful to all, which I'm sure you appreciate...
Kira

glitterducky, i agree with you, but i have to correct one teeny point.

we did not evolve from monkeys.


Homo sapiens and species like marmosets evolved from a common ancestor millions of years ago. saying that we evolved from monkeys implies that monkeys stopped evolving and we kept going. evolution has no ending point or goal in mind. meaning, humans are a certain way right now, but in a million years, the species could be quite different. monkeys are also continuing to evolve to adapt to their environments. (i have an anthropology degree and get a little obsessive about this stuff. :D yay evolution!)

it's probably obvious from what i wrote above, but i am a staunch evolutionist. i do not say that i "believe" in evolution because that is like saying you can choose to NOT believe in it. it exists and there is no denying it. there is physical proof. i do not say i "believe" in the existence of libraries or schools or churches because i can see those things and know they exist. for my birthday, my boyfriend got me an "Evolve" fish for our car and i'm really excited to put it on! i also want to get a car emblem of a T. rex eating a Jesus fish.

...I'll have to reread my post because I may have made a typo. My intent was to say that we did NOT evolve from monkeys, that we have a common ancestor. I used the cousin example to explain. You have a cousin, but you did not come from your cousin, however, you do have a common relative with that cousin. And this is what I mean as far as evolution. We did not come from monkeys...more so have a common link between us, which caused both monkeys, and humans, as well as other primates to evolve into their own seperate species.

I thought I made this point, but I could have made a typo and left out an important word of NOT evolving from monkeys.

Painted lady... yup, I left out the all important "not", when I used the phrase "We did not evolve from monkeys.".

Funny how one word left out totally changes the meaning of what you meant.

nevertheless, we are in agreement!

evolution = the truth.
monkeys = adorable, yet frightening, kind of.

I would highly recommend the movie Religulous to all believers and non-believers as well.Very insightful and pretty much sums up why I dont believe.

Kira, you're too funny. it did strike me as a q that possibly could lead to answers that could go on forever (in my mind, at least). so complicated and personal. yes/no. liked that very much.

i just watched Religious this week. It was very good. Also good is Zeitgeist which I think is a more serious view on the same subject.

I am baptised Anglican (as a baby, I had no choice), however I am not religious. I do believe there is a God though. One love, baby!

I agree with EZMoney. I have had and have experiences in my life that cause me to know there is a GOD . Not only do I know there is a GOD , I know that I know.

I certainly do! Thanks for the look-out, I would be in a real mess if it wasn't for my friends here that "watch my back" for me :)

Which is why, even though your situation in life is not as we would wish at the moment, I know that "WE" 3FC buddies are at peace as much as we can be.....knowing the final outcome for "US"...no matter when, will be glorious! :hug:

Knowing is interesting to me.I am a free thinker and surely respect you all that "know".I am a see it to believe it gal.I think that is exactly why I dont believe.I have never seen anything to make me believe.I have been in the medical profession for 15 years.And the things I have seen have convinced me that it does not exist.There are no miracles.None at all.Few people beat the odds.Thats the truth.And when they do, its a small percentage that is predictable in every disease process and diagnosis.Simple and scientific.

HARRISMM ~ :hug:

Please understand that I mean absolutely no dis-respect when I say what I am about to say.

When Christians say that "we know" it is because we do. As I mentioned before, if Christ is not in your heart you cannot know...but for those of us that have Christ in our hearts...well...we do! We TOTALLY understand each other. It is a gift we want to share with everyone...but trying to we upset people along the way sometimes....and sometimes we PRAISE God for the Glory as another one comes to Him.

It is not something we "feel" with our minds or something we see with our eyes. We have the power of the HOLY SPIRIT living in us! If a person is not a Christian then they do not have it....it is impossible for them to "feel" what we feel and know.

We suffer...we have children die...we die....we have prayers asked that we feel are unanswered here on Earth. We also have prayers answered...we have children live! We live through amazing circumstances.....some die far too young...others live forever it seems...

What Christians know is that our ways are not God's ways...what Christians know is that our lives here on Earth are short.

We want all people that are/were good people to be healed....but our ways are not God's ways. We lean not on our own understanding but on the promise of eternal life, through His Son.

It is a promise that comforts us through very tough times in our lives. A promise we know is true.

I can understand that one who is not a Christian would doubt that Christians "know"...but Christians do not doubt each other for one second that they "know" certain things...because, as I said...it is in our hearts...not our minds.

May Peace Be With You ~ Gary

None taken, trust me.I am very respectful of your beliefs.I have many family and friends that believe as you do.I simply dont.I understand that our time on this earth is short, I see it every day.Which truly makes me try and enjoy every day here.None of us are getting out alive.Religion is interesting to me because Its interesting to study human beings, just as people who are in cults.I could seriously write a book about people I have met over the years who have done some very crazy things for their religious beliefs or cult beliefs.It bewilders and amazes me.I see people refuse life saving medical treatments because it goes against their religious beliefs.It makes me question what sort of god would want to see people suffer and die before their "time".I am pro-choice.100%!We all have a right to either believe or not.I am sure I will spend the rest of my life listening and learning.I personally belong to the religion of "I dont know".And I am at peace with that.

In a nutshell, you have articulated the difference between my belief system and yours.

I KNOW that I AM getting out alive.

Forever

:)

Yes.You are correct.I know that when I take my last breath...........thats all she wrote.

Yes, I believe in God and I strive for a good relationship with Him.

GEE BARGOO ~ we should compare our experiences sometime. I have only shared them with a very few people (like my DH) becuz people are so skeptical and are always trying to explain them away; but mine are so unique and real to me, that they convinced me that GOD exists, so I can honestly say that 'I know becuz I know becuz I know that HE exists' ...

EZ ~ I think you have to want to believe first; and be open to believing, so that GOD can reveal himself to you thru his Son, JESUS. I agree that the heart is the door to our soul/spirit; hence why He said 'I stand at the door (of your heart) and knock; if anyone opens the door and lets me in, I will come ...' They just have to ask, but why are so many reluctant to do that? I'm glad I believe; I'm glad I know; I'm glad to have this great hope! I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to know or believe in GOD ...

HARRISMM ~ At first I was surprised to hear that during 15 years as a nurse, that you never saw any miracles, but then I think it depends where you work. I have seen a few interesting things in my life; plus several people in my family have beat the odds and overcome cancer (one uncle has had prostrate, colon, and lung cancer and is still alive, even though his oncologist doesn't understand why; while we believe in prayer and miracles).

Like I said to EZ, I think you have to be open to believing and then ask GOD to show you that HE exists. Like Bargoo, I have had many awesome experiences in my life that verified to me that GOD and Jesus and Angels exist. There are thousands (if not millions) of people worldwide that have heard and seen and experienced things that helped them believe; and that is why so many millions do believe. Why some people have these experiences and others don't, may have something to do with our 'will' like EZ says.

Are you willing to believe in GOD? Are you willing to ask JESUS to reveal himself to you? Are you willing to consider the possibility that they do exist? Are you willing to look past people's flaws and go to GOD Himself?

I hear a common complaint throughout this thread: other people turned me off GOD (and religion) by their words or behavior. I try not to judge GOD and JESUS by human standards -- GOD is so big and powerful that HE couldn't fit into our livingrooms, so why would we judge GOD by a mere human being?

So ... if I'm a good Christian, you'll believe in God? But if I'm a bad Christian, you won't believe in God? Remember that a Christian is just a 'FOLLOWER of CHRIST' -- we are not GOD himself; we are not perfect; we are just forgiven, imperfect human beings, who are trying to do the best we can, with GOD's help!

Someone asked ... Where is GOD? I wrote a poem once with that very question. The answer I found in the Word (the Bible) -- HE is right where HE is supposed to be ~ on HIS throne ~ keeping the world and all the universes in place; directing and creating and supervising and healing and helping and waiting, like any Supreme Being might do ...

If I thought that we and this earth were created by a combination of the big bang, omnipotent thought, and evolution -- would that change anything? 'One day can be a thousand years' the bible says ...

If I thought that GOD sent all religious leaders to this earth to teach man over time and in all places, culminating with JESUS, the fulfillment of all religious thought -- would that change anything? 'I am the way, the truth, and the life' He says ...

Are we limiting GOD to our intellect; our pea-brained minds; by our knowledge; by our limited powers; and by our limited standards of perfection??? I suspect, that we could not even comprihend the massive size of GOD's power and mind and knowledge ... but the size of some people's egos never seizes to amaze me! ;)

No, I'm not trying to proselytize, but if by answering someone's questions, someone else should find a glimmer of hope for all eternity, then I won't mind.
Sorry, if I got off topic too much or rambled on too long; but I just had to add some more food for thought to some of the things I was reading on this thread, which is very thought provoking, I must say ... and I enjoyed it immensely!

I was always it was up to God's will, not ours. Wont he just do as he pleases, whether to the faithful or the nonbeliever?

There are many of us who have been quite open to [the Christian] God's existence who have yet to see him reveal himself. I was raised in a very religious home and believed all my life without question. After a while I realized I never had a personal experience with that God. I prayed quite frequently and asked for signs. I was not opposed to his existence--quite the opposite--I already believed. But after a long while of this I felt like I was talking to the ceiling as a prayed. Can you honestly blame the human in stances like these for not believing? It seemed odd to continue believing in something that never once acknowledge me. They do say, "God works in mysterious ways", so if he does exist I certainly can imagine that. I don't think it really has anything to do with whether not the person is just open or not. It's quite condescending to assume so.

It wasn't until I turned to another god that I immediately got some communication. (Finally!) For a while I was bitter toward the Christian god, but got over it.. We just didn't work out I guess. But am bothered by how it's always the people trying to convert you who have to share their all miraculous stories. I converted to my present faith largely because of my own odd experience, but it's something I like to keep to myself because it's personal. Nobody would ever believe me anyway, and I'm not interested in converts. Plus it would be a little dishonest to present it as if I knew it were factually a miraculous event.. I'm skeptical of that myself. I just don't like the attitude that I have to accept other people's miracles and then convert because of them.. If a god wants to show itself, it will, but it will be a personal event that can only concern that individual.

This is my point of view-- I was always taught that the Christian God changes peoples lives. He's supposed to fill you with joy and hope and make you a better person. Poor behavior is not so much an argument against God in particular, but it is for Christianity. If I don't see Christians behaving any differently than people of any other persuasion, then why should I become a Christian? It seems like I could just do what works best for me.

That depends on how you look at it, I suppose. In my 23 years as a nurse I've never seen anything that I would describe as a miracle. I never cease to be amazed at the power of the human body to regenerate and heal itself, and I can't explain some of the people I've met who by rights shouldn't be alive.

But I put them down to our lack of understanding of science. I certainly don't believe that they are due to divine intervention or anything like that.

If there were someone up there pulling the strings, he/she/it certainly has a pretty warped sense of humour. I've seen people who are the strongest of strong believers knocked down in the prime of their lives, leaving loved ones and small children. And I've seen babies born with horrendous brain injuries, who will be going home with parents who you absolutely know aren't capable of looking after them. And you're saying this is deliberate? Wow.

Anyway, I'll stop before I get carried away. Each to their own, like I said before. I have no problem with people spreading the word of their beliefs (hi Gary!) as long as you accept that I have my own beliefs, and that I am more than prepared to defend my right to hold them.

Live your own life the way you want. Just don't expect me to live like that as well.

No, I don't believe in the existance of a God in any form. I am an atheist, I suppose if I have to qualify my beliefs then I am a Darwinist. The work of Charles Darwin explains the existance of all life and explains the meaning of life. This is my belief and is in no way meant to critisize, upset or antagonise anyone.

I was blessed to be raised by a family of scientists.That is where my gotta see it to believe it comes from .Those of you who understand scientific theories will get this.interesting to me is that 93% of scientists are either agnostic or atheist.also studies show that the more educated a person is, the more likely they are to not believe.Justwanttobehealthy-I am happy for your family member.Like i said in an earlier post-a small number beat the odds.That is statistics.When someone receives a cancer diagnosis with a 10% survival rate...someone has to make up the 10%.Can even our brightest physicians explain this?Not at this time.Research is being conducted every day to do so and there are many scientific theories as to why some people live longer than others with certain diagnosis...and trust me, none of the theories involve any god.I have no problem with anyone who believes!!!If you find peace in you faith and it gives you something to shoot for while on this earth...GO FOR IT!I personally dont need some religion to tell me....do not kill, do not steal, honor thy mother and father.... And I certainly dont need anyone to carve these in stone to remind me. I consider these things COMMON SENSE!
Primm-Thanks for understanding!its hard to explain to others what we experience every day.Most would be shocked to find out that the physician leaning over them with a scalpel in hand..........believes as we do.There are no prayers said when things are going wrong.

harrismm--i am 100% in agreement with you.

that being said, show me some physical, scientific proof of a mystical being that lives in the sky and controls our lives and i'll acknowledge its existence.

I might be in the middle here, not a Christian or a Scientist, but I think we put what we want into certain words and terms. For example, I know a few nurses and they have witnessed events that they considered miracles or miraculous. I've also known doctors who feel the same, but each person has their own view of what a miracle is. Take the nurse I know who is very religious, well she views it as divine intervention, while another person I know who is not religious views it as someone beating the odds.

I used to know this guy, he loved his motorcycle, probably still does. One day, clear wonderful cruising day, he survived a wreck that most people would not have. This wreck involved him getting run over by a truck and being drug by the truck for quite a distance. Of course he was very injured, I believe he ended up loosing his leg, and he had experienced medical professionals working on him. However, before the medical professionals intervened it was him and the truck. The motorcycle just happened to be in the right position to protect his body enough while the truck ran over him and he just happened to get lodged in the truck in a certain way. I don't think he ever looked at it as divine intervention, but he did view it as miraculous that he survived and then having incredible medical professionals take care of him...they made sure he had a good chance. I don't, from speaking with his doctors and nurses, feel that they viewed him as a statistic. They viewed his situation as "beating the odds" and I believe his nurse at the time said the world "miracle," but to her it was.

To me, if you want to live your life with studies and statistics and beakers and whatever, then great. If that is what makes you feel fulfilled, wonderful. If you are a person who wants to live your life believing in God or Gods/Goddesses, or nature, or whatever, great. I guess for someone like me, if you're not using your faith, beliefs, or scientific nature to hurt other people or creatures, then more power to you. :hug:

I had to comment on this:

When you are born, speaking scientifically, you do not know these lessons. Someone, a human being, taught them to you. Now this someone could have been a parent/s, a school, books, culture...Saturday Morning Cartoons lol..my point is that if someone chooses a Church or Religion in order to learn these lessons, then that is okay. Common sense dictates that you were told about these morals by another individual or individuals. Even if you are one that believes that God taught you these morals, you still had a person, human being, teaching you these things. My point is that you too were taught by people otherwise you would not have known about these morals. You were most likely, statistically and scientifically speaking, taught by stories that were told to you by people. That could be a parent telling you a story or lesson from their childhood. That really isn't that much different than hearing the Noah story or etc. Not all religious people believe that the Noah story actually happened. There are people who just view that as a story, a myth, a legend...

Sure, a religious person probably will view the Noah story differently than you do, but still you say it is common sense. Well, it is NOW that you know these things, but at one point you depended on people to teach you their ways. If you were growing up in a religious family, and I did, you would have been taught their way. Now hopefully you would then be able to choose your way, like I did, when you felt it was time without pressure... However, you still were taught the same things, but you were just taught differently. I realize that the Noah story is probably not the best example, but I'm speaking in general terms. What someone takes from those stories...etc.

;)

Love hearing your thoughts ladies -- but please don't think for a minute that I cannot grasp what you are saying; and you have some very valid points. I worked in 4 nursing homes in my life (as a nurse's aide et al), and less than a handful of our dear clients got better and walked out of there (physically, I mean), so death was an ever-present occurrence for us, BUT I did witness some strange spiritual things while working there ...

I too have common sense, and appreciate intellectual thought, and the wisdom of science (even with its limitations), but I can still have faith on top of all that too (I guess I get the best of both worlds) -- and I just don't think that they have to be mutally exclusive of each other, that's all.

And, I DO respect your right to believe, or not to believe what you want. Some of us are just sharing 'why' we do believe in GOD/religion despite all the imperfections and limitations and questions that we experience in this life.

I find it interesting that some of you believe in your 'Science' to the point that I might call that a kind of religion. You propose that science proves there is no GOD, yet admit that science too is limited; but some day, may explain the unexplainable ... Maybe belief in our intellect and science and reason, can become a kind of god and religion too?

I see so much awesome beauty in this world and the night skies, that I find it hard to believe that it all happened by accident alone: that seems like limited thought to me. Maybe it's all just a matter of personal experience and 'perspective' like you say ... Science tells us that everything is very orderly, yet not always perfect: that would be heaven then, not earth.

I'm learning a lot from this discussion, so thanks ... :D


PAINTED LADY: I was still giggling this morning thinking about your bumper sticker, but decided I want one with Charlie the Tuna reclining on an 'extinct' Brontosaurus' skeleton, while sipping on a Margarita in the hot, Florida sun ... :lol: