Shane and everyone else~I really enjoyed reading this post! Not that I'm in any of these situations but I am living in one of the largest gay communities in the US, so I see a lot of different things.

What I have realized after living here for 17 years is that there are really two types of gay people (IMO). Those that are comfortable with who they are and are happy to just be themselves and those that for some reason need to really flaunt their differences (and I'm not referring to the guy that is overtly effeminate or the girl that is a stereotypical jock).

Each year Palm Springs hosts a number of different gay-themed parties: Gay Pride (this weekend), the White Party, etc. These things bring in large numbers of gays from other areas and, I think, a lot of these folks are really still in the closet and coming here allows them to try and be open with other gays before returning home to their closet. Those are the ones that I feel are the different ones--they act ENTIRELY different than the gays who are comfortable with themselves (and obviously are no longer in any closet). I don't know if I'm making sense or not, but I can tell an "out of towner" from a "local" just by their actions around one another. The out of towners are much more "in your face" about being gay--flaunting it ad naseum. Just like I don't enjoy watching straight folks playing kissy-face on the street, I don't like watching gays groping and licking each other (save it for the bedroom, folks!). The gays that are comfortable with themselves might hold hands, put their arms around each other, give each other a hug or peck. All that is fine, normal behavior (for gay or straight). Sex acts (or those remotely close to that) shouldn't be seen in public.

I hope I haven't offended anyone (it certainly wasn't my intention!). Basically the point I'm trying to make is that you need to be comfortable with who you are and don't do anything that might make anyone around you feel uncomfortable.

Eughhh, public sex. :barf: Those people just constantly perpetuate BAD gay stereotypes!

I'm definitely one of the "comfortable" ones. I've been out of the closet since I was 16. Now, back then, I DID make a spectacle of it. I wore rainbow crap, chopped off all my hair (so I could look more "gay" :lol: - but I keep the short hair now because it's both cute and versatile), and looooved to talk about how BISEXUAL I was! Of course, bisexuality was pretty trendy in my teen years (remember t.A.t.u? they just did it to turn guys on, but that's why most "bi girls" were "bi" at my HS).

By the age of 18, I decided it was no one's business but my own and there was no reason for me to discuss it or flaunt it.

I am who I am. I no longer feel the need to "come out of the closet" like I did when I was younger. Who I am with is just a part of me and my life... it's so natural to talk about it that I don't even think twice.

I don't really go to gay pride parades. I did when I was younger, but now I just feel like they really do perpetuate bad stereotypes. We don't need that. I don't care to see practically naked men parading around on floats groping each other.

I also think gay and bi people would not feel the need to flaunt it if they knew they were mostly accepted by people. They flaunt it because they feel like they have been repressed for so long. The way I see it... is that people don't need to accept "gay people" to accept me as a person. I'm a genuinely kind person and most find it tough to dislike me... I naturally break some of the stereotypes and misconceptions that people harbor about anyone who is not straight.

:hug: Just want to send some good vibes your way, Shane.

I'm not sure how often you try to bring the subject up and I'm not sure how close to either set of parents you live, but have you tried the standard "Hey Mom, hey Dad! Ya know I was thinking that we don't really get to see eachother as often as I'd like. My girlfriend and I would simply LOVE to take you guys out for dinner! Our treat! What's your favorite place?" Repeat as needed with various activities always including your girlfriend in the equation. Granted... this really all depends on how hard to want to try, and how often you feel like getting rejected.

Sometimes we have to be the adult in a situation where we're dealing with another adult who isn't acting like an adult. (Could I say the word adult more? Sure. I just don't want to... :p)

This may mean that you have to be the one who holds that door open to your parents (and your girlfriend to her parents) always letting them know that it's open, and that you'll love them no matter what they choose. (Kinda reverses it on them alittle bit! >_<)

On a side note there's lotsa Catholic stuff being brought up, and it reminded me of when I "came out" as an Agnostic to my very German Catholic Mother. (Oh yes, it all needs capitalizing! :lol:) She realized I wasn't going to church anymore, and was more upset than at any other point I can ever remember in my entire life. For weeks I could feel a painful icy stare in my direction. She kept bringing up religion. I kept saying "I love you, Mom." Eventually things settled down.

Now years later, I know she still prays for me. Heck, everytime I leave her house she says "Go with God." "Be with God." "God loves you." But she's always done that every once and awhile so I know it's just her own way of saying she cares. Now she just does it a little more fervently.
I'm not going to be able to change her, and I love her enough to keep my mouth shut, and say my prayers at the table before supper with the family. I can overlook this "flaw" (and it's not really a flaw, just a difference) because it's something that doesn't really bother me or belittle me.

We'll all put up with a lot for family...

Sorry, got a little off topic, but my point is that you may need to take the reins in regards to your parents.

Maybe your parents really aren't sure how to handle it all, and need your guidance by example?

All the best of luck ~

Shane - wow, I could have written your post word-for-word. After my sister's wedding, my mom and I had a conversation about how, given how most people who DON'T live in major gay centers have little experience with gay people except via pride parade footage, it was great that some of my relatives got to see "normal" gay people.

I'm just like everybody else - domestically settled, Martha Stewart-esque, cooks at home me. And Sarah and I had a big discussion about how that means we don't "fit" in the gay population. We're a very typical, all-American lesbian couple.

That was off topic but I felt so connected to your post I needed to respond!

Gosh, reading all these posts makes me feel so alone. I kind of wish I could identify with either any one of you, but I can't because I just so "not either way". My brother gave me this strange look the other day when I mentioned this to him, and he think's I'm crazy....

Mandalinn, I live in New York City, where most "gay" types are your very stereotypical types, but I don't know what you mean by "normal" type of gay. Especially the males. It's very, very chic to be flamboyantly gay these days. (The females are "butch" types with LOW DEEP VOICES) In fact, being gay is like wearing the new black where I live, and hiding in the closet is a super-faux-pas. I'm a small minority of the asexual community, which I swear, seems to be blooming. I don't even know what "normal" is anymore. You mean like, "normal" in a way that you couldn't tell the sexual preference based on their outward appearance, behavior and mannerisms?

Normal as in, if you put me in a room and had me interact with a bunch of people, no one would know I was gay unless I told them. anti-stereotypical.

But there are similarities. People give you strange looks... people just not understanding. This is the way you are, and it makes sense to you. It's just another way a human might be.

A little bit of a side track, but I sometimes imagine living in a future where it's all pretty much in the background. Uhm... for example, no one talks about their sex life or sexuality all the time. (Or rather, no polite person :lol:) I consider it a rather personal thing. I don't bring up intimate moments with my boyfriend to the public (and certainly not to my parents... mortifying!). So what I've always wanted is for it to be brought up in a casual sort of way, the way that I might bring it up ... like "Yeah my boyfriend and I went to the park this weekend and -insert amusing story here-." That way I can go "K, this person has a boyfriend... filed away in the back of my head in case needed later" and move on.

Being straight or bi-sexual or homosexual or transgendered or non-sexual or purple monkey elephant dishwasher is part of who we are, but certainly not all of it.

It's kind of like that annoying stereotype that all gay people get along. Hello! It's not a hobby like quilting! That's like saying all women get along. Just because you have something in common does not mean you're going to like eachother. (I know this from personal experience being that I was a major _ _ _ hag back in school.)

I'm not sure where I was headed with all of this... so I'll just end it now >_>

I don't know why this made me think of this, but my roommates this past summer when I was in Nashville were a lesbian couple. Of course, if this had bothered me I would have ignored their reply to my craigslist ad, but I didn't give it a second thought. However, they were very foward with the fact that were gay, mentioning it a few times.

The funny part is, I could not have cared less that they were a gay couple, but they failed to mention to me that they were extremely environmentally strict, which affected my daily life much more than them sharing a bed :lol:

But they didn't fit the stereotype either. And I guess Nashville has a large lesbian population and I didn't meet one stereotypical lesbian there either.

I dunno. maybe I need to brush up on my stereotypes.

Edit: But yeah. I guess the broader point would be someday, stereotypes just won't matter because you won't be able to tell enough to care. Because people are going to be who they are and everyone will stop being so damn sensitive to it.

N- I only read your original post to this thread and just want to comment. I've been a hairdresser since the early 80's and, hence, have known a gay man or two (or three). I have to admit...back in the 80's I was totally freaked out by gay people. I had all the typical paradigms in my head...the lesbians were, of course, all looking at me like I was interested in them and the guys were all just icky people that put their you know whats you know where. I was totally freaked out. Alls I can say to stick up for myself is I grew up in the country and was raised by totally conservative parents and all this gayness was totally foriegn to me and I just didn't understand.

Then I met a friend of mine in an office named Jane. She was a manager that worked under my boss and she was in my office or on my phone asking me to help her with something or set up a meeting of some sort. We had many conversations about our own personal relationships and I found that, with the exception of the fact that she is gay, we had a lot of the same problems and heartaches and crap going on. She didn't want our boss to know of her relationship because he was...well, like my parents...but she used to expense $25 a night for hotel expense when she stayed at her partner's house for travel. I remember one day my boss coming in and saying, 'you know, I think Jane is gay...' and I said, 'what give you that idea?' and he just walked away scratching his head.

Then I left that job and worked in anohter office and met my friend Ed. Here was a guy that had a relationship I was totally envious of. He and his partner David would get up in the mornings and both sit and have coffee in their robes, each with a cat on their lap, watching Matt and Katie, then Ed would go off to take a shower while David made him his lunch and started the car for him so it would warm up. I used to call them Ward and Ward Cleaver. Ed is still one of my friends and we e-mail from time to time and when I go to visit my frineds in Rochester (I moved away a few years ago), he's on my list to visit.

Anyhow...my point is, many people have phobias about things they don't understand or haven't had exposure to. What many people don't understand...or what I didn't understand...is that homosexuality isn't just about who you're having sex with, but a lifestyle change that, once you remove the unfamiliarity of it all, isn't so different from heterosexuality. We all want to love and be loved by the right people.

Its all a matter of breaking down barriers one at a time.

Then there's the parents. I feel the pain of both sides because I am a parent. Here's the thing for me...we have children...say, a girl. Almost instantly, we're thinking and dreaming of what their future will be. Will she be a musician? An athlete? A dancer? What will her boyfriends or husband look like? What will my grandchildren look like? Never in the equation is there, I hope she becomes a lesbian! It's just not in the equation of what we hope for or expect from our children. Of course, we want our kids to be happy, but your parents, likely, grew up in the 60's or maybe the 50's...I don't know how old they are...but if I had a hard time accepting homosexuality growing up in the 80's, holy crap, imagine how hard it is for them to accept it growing up in an even more conservative time span?

Problem is, from my perspective, people that have a hard time accepting homosexuality may be having a hard time accepting anything from what exactly is going on behind closed doors to the religious aspect to the whole, "this is just not normal" aspect. In your situation, in particular...I think you've been through more than the usual amount of bad times in your life. you could pull the heart strings of your parents to understanding this further and that you have finally found happiness in this relationship. I think I read one reply here that said that you should bring her around and not hold hands or act romatically at all. That is up to you...but to force it down your parents throats may backfire. You should wait till they are ready. Bringing her around in a very casual environment until they can get to know her and realize that she's not some sort of freak may be a better route, instead of tossing her at them during the holidays.

As a parent, all I'm saying is to think of their feelings, too. Before they can accept this in their lives, they have to first have a chance to alter their hopes and dreams they have for their little girl...realizing that you probably aren't going to get married to a handsome man and have beautiful babies or whatever. You are going to go on into a relationship that THEY are, in turn, going to have to explain to their conservative friends and they are going to be embarassed and ashamed, etc...until they can learn to get behind you and support you...which is where you want to be with them someday. But it won't happen overnight.

Accepting homosexuality in our friends is one thing...even brothers and sisters...but accepting it in our children, being the least bit conservative, is a whole nother ball of wax. For you, understanding this, is the first step, I think, in making this work for you.

Also, you may just have to accept the fact that jsut maybe your parents will never accept your choices. Which, knowing the gay people I've known, homosexuality isn't necessarily a 'choice' as much as its an acceptance of who you are and having the bravery to live the way you want to live that makes you feel like a whole person. Some of us choose to be a stay-at-home mom and have our husbands support our family, some choose to get married and have kids and take them to daycare while we persue our careers, some get married and choose to not have kids at all, some choose to not get married at all and live the single life. Conservative people have strong, strong visions of what they consider to be 'normal' and they almost have tunnel vision when it comes to accepting anything that isn't normal in their eyes. They're almost afraid of it. And, from a religious sense, its not our job to judge others...that's God's job...its our job as Christians to accept people for who they are and their choices and treat people the way we want to be treated. That's easy to do most of the time....until it's your own kids.

I feel sorry for you because, growing up in a conservative household, and having both of my kids before I was married, I was the brunt of my parents harsh judgements, as well. I didn't know it until I was married to my husband, but they actually cut me out of their will! Then when I got married, they had my husband and I put back in! They said because they didn't want some random guy coming along and squandering me out of my inheritance. Gimme a break.

Good luck to you...and, a thought, I don't know if she's replied here, but I would talk to Amanda about this, as well. She must know what you're going through and can give you very good advice from a hands-on perspective.

Hugs and prayers!! Kris

:lol: veggielover - wowza, all the lesbians have REALLY DEEP VOICES over there? Daaaang. There are some butch-y types over here... those lesbians that look and dress like gay men seem to be the hot thing in my town right now.

I... actually have a really girly voice and very feminine mannerisms, with a sort of tomboyish look that the straight people of the south still find acceptable :lol: I'm a pseudo tomboy... I have short hair and will wear ties and a few clothing items that walk the border of the androgynous zone, but no one would EVER mistake me for a guy and I'm still... well... "pretty" (delicate features, decidedly feminine face and body). People rarely think I'm gay/bi though... it's kind of funny, even other queer folks are never sure whether I'm "family" or not and that most think I'm just "punk" or "artsy" ;) - which I am, of course!

junebug - just PM me for all the stereotypes :lol: I'm on the up-and-up on those things. :p I think your old roommates just felt compelled to mention their gayness to make sure you were okay with it. A lot of gay people have experienced quite a bit of rejection from people who are practically strangers just because of their sexuality, silly/sad as it sounds. Mostly, though, it's just a fear that people won't accept them, as opposed to a reality.

faerie - your mother's Catholicism sounds just like my mother's... only she's a *converted* Catholic, so she's REALLY into Catholicism, since instead of being born into it, she CHOSE To be Catholic. Now, why the **** ANYONE would CHOOSE to be Catholic is beyond me, considering all the steps you have to go through just to be part of the daggone church! I prefer the Unitarians myself - you just show up, they welcome you, AND they don't care if you are gay!

Saying things like "my boyfriend (or in my case, my girlfriend) and I went to the park" et cetera is how I "come out" to people, too... :)

Okay...I jsut read the rest of the post and see Amanda has been here. If I were in your shoes...she's the one I'd be making a beeline to for advice and she's given you wonderful advice so far.

As for stereotypes...we have a resident lesbian couple and they make me laugh so much. The looks exactly like John Cougar and works for the DPW. Then you talk to her and she has this totally feminine voice. I always praise her when someone is bashing 'the dyke' because she's one of the nicest people in town...always helps me with the door at the grocery store...always waves and is friendly. And when you see her at work, the guys are all standing around scratching their nards while Kate is the hard working one in the middle of it all. I think she's awesome. I was goign to invite her to a Girl Scout meeting a couple years ago as one of the power women in town to look up to along with the post master and the lady that owns the coffee shop, but the moms all looked at me funny when I suggested it. I just skipped the power women meeting because I didn't think it would be complete without Kate.

Nshane - i can't add much more than what brillant statements have been said. All i can say is we are all here and love you for you. I personally think you should just tell you parents and be honest with them. Dont' be argumentive just state the facts. I truley think that, it may take time, but that they will accept you and love you. My parents are very strict devout catholics...but i know if i ever told them i was gay...there might be a moment of disappointment, but then once they came back to reality..they would love me for who i am. I hope it doesn't take a long time for your parents to accept you as a happy lesbian woman who isn't a typical stereotype. I think it may help if you do talk about your steady relationship and that not everyone who is gay is running around in parades having sex on the street LOL. Show your parents what a abrillant beautiful young happy gay woman looks like and that they arent "freaks of nature" Be proud of who you are and show your parens that this is me..and eventually they will come to love you. 99% of parents will love their child unconditionally.

You said you are pround of being gay and are out of the closet...but in my opinion, you cannot be out of the closet and be strong in your beliefs until you ensure your parents know and understand your lifestyle. You can't be one way in front of your friends and different in front of your parents. I agree that the first few times you bring your gf to your parents very little affection should be shown (it may be too much)...but heck i wouldn't bring DH over to my parents and make out with him on the couch LOL. I know this is a very scary thing....no one wants to think that their parents would "disown" them. But you must take a chance and explain this to your parents. IMO you are living a lie if you don't tell your parents about you lifestyle and have them understand who you are.

Hugs to you...and i hope that your parents will see the wonderful person you are and not get blindsides and jaded by you being a person in love with a women. There's no crime in that. Good luck my dear friend.

kris/techwife - what an insightful post from a parental perspective! :) :lol: :rofl: @ "Never in the equation is there, I hope she becomes a lesbian!" - like you said, it just doesn't enter into parents' heads! ;) You are right - my parents grew up in the 60's. Homosexuality didn't even start to become accepted until the 70's (and back then, it wasn't nearly as accepted or as mainstream as it is now). My dad managed a Grayhound bus station where people beat up obviously queer people (mostly transgendered folks) but he made a point of telling me that he always defended them. He's halfway to acceptance of my sexuality, though right now he is just tolerant in the sense that he feels like there is nothing he can do to change me.

Wow, I'm sorry that your parents were so judgmental as to remove you from their will until you got married :eek: "They said because they didn't want some random guy coming along and squandering me out of my inheritance. Gimme a break. " <----that sounds EXACTLY like something MY parents would say! My parents would be VERY judgmental of me having kids before marriage, though I think they would be more tolerant of it than homosexuality, because this other thought would be going through their minds: "At least she didn't have an abortion!"

"its not our job to judge others...that's God's job...its our job as Christians to accept people for who they are and their choices and treat people the way we want to be treated. That's easy to do most of the time....until it's your own kids. " True on both fronts. Believe it or not, I'm actually a pretty spiritual person. I believe profoundly in God and I pray often. I treat people the way I would want them to treat me and I try my best never to judge anyone. I used to pray that God would "turn me completely straight." Then, I prayed that if my relationship was "wrong" that He would have it end in a way where neither of us were extremely jaded and heartbroken :lol: But so far, everything gets better and better on the relationship front, so now I just pray for Him to give me the strength to stop hiding from my parents and give my parents the ability to eventually become accepting.

My girlfriend's parents have known about her sexuality for 5 years and met her ex girlfriend (who was a total douche!) Despite having 5 years to get used to it (and being emotionally abusive towards her! :(), they STILL have a BIG problem with it.

Hehehe, now I wanna join the purple monkey elephant dishwasher group because it sounds so cool. (:o woops, can't since I'm neither elephant, dishwasher or a monkey... nor am I purple....)

Wow, then you have it better than I have it if people can't tell. Instead of asexual, people confuse me as homosexual. Straight and homosexuals alike. I'm BOYISH and rather androgynous, but the only reason why people think I'm gay is because I tell people that I don't like men (for reasons, most people would assume that I'm gay if not straight). I don't blame them, I don't get angry, I mean, afterall, I spent a whole 5 years figuring out my sexual orientation and even then I was confused about it. Only to find out now, that I really don't have a sexual orientation... (I actually think this is partly due to the fact that I have a twin sister whom I love to death. I seriously do not care for sex or anything so as long as I have my twin sister.)


I know a lot of young homosexual individuals that are afraid of the disowning thing, but I've yet to see that happen. Most parents are accepting, even the super-radical religious types, I have seen accept their kids. Over time, itheir short term shock will die out and then think twice about how selfish they were when they couldn't accept it. Although I do feel for her in this position; I would be scared to say anything to my parent if she didn't already accept it...

You're boyish and rather androgynous, eh veggielover?

This means you are probably REALLY freakin' ADORABLE! Seriously, androgyny is SO cute on those who can pull it off.

I, too, can pull off androgyny quite nicely, but it takes some work. I'm curvy. Hiding my curves is tough and painful. :p

As for looking and/or appearing gay, while most people do not suspect, they are also usually not surprised.