Originally Posted by :
I view things different from you sometimes When someone cuts me off, often here in southern California, I usually don't say "hey you Christian sticker...Rainbow sticker...democrat/republican sticker....world peace sticker...free Tibet sticker....you secular Person"...I usually say "why you idiot on your cell phone person!"...arrrghhhgghhh.

I don't say "hey you rainbow sticker," unless it is something that directly is in opposition to what they have on their car, such as "respect others," because driving like a maniac isn't respecting others. To me, when a person claims to be a Christian, there's a certain expectation that they act the part. Driving in a way that could cause someone else to crash is just not a loving thing to do. Christianity, or whatever your religion, is a 24-7 thing. Sure, people mess up. But it's a lot easier to forgive mistakes when you see someone is really trying.

Aren't Christians supposed to be the light of the world? Isn't it reasonable to have a higher expectation of them because that is the path that they have chosen? I don't think it was mean to be bam, conversion, free ticket to Heaven, now resume your normal life.

Originally Posted by :
I have been known to cuss up a storm...very loudly!!! at work when I am PO'd....when I am done it doesn't take long for one of my guys to say..."Why are you yelling at us...I thought you were a Christian"..

since when did being a Christian not allow me to yell at my guys for being idiots! Especially since...being nice didn't work for the umpteenth time!

Since the Bible says not to. Ephesians 4, verse 29 to the end, on through chapter 5, verse 4 ("nor should there be obscenity ...")

I don't mean to make you feel bad. I used to be a Bible studies teacher, many years ago. My point is: If you claim it, then own it. Really be responsible for your beliefs and what they mean in your life. Then, people will look at the way you act and know that there's something about you. They'll be drawn to it, as an ambassador of God to the world. At least, that's the way I believe it's supposed to work.

Oh Gary I bet when you started this thread you had know idea what a response you were going to get! Ha! Isn't it great!

In my experience , my church would not celebrate Jesus Birthday or Easter and it really bothered me because when they left church they would go home and celebrate. Had their houses decorated etc... I don't see it would hurt one bit to at least sing, Joy to the world or anything like that for Jesus Birthday but it was denied when a man asked to sing it, I just did not understand.

I was thinking about this thread and something UFI said last night. I think what matters is 'our intent' ... as a Christian (as a follower of Christ), I try my best to emulate his example; but I am still human. We must not forget that JESUS CHRIST was half human and half GOD; his biological father was the Holy Spirit, so he did have an advantage over us. We had two earthly, human, flawed parents, so our sinful nature becomes a greater stumbling block for us.

Paul talked about this -- how in his WILL (or heart's intent), he didn't want to sin, but the sinful nature of his flesh, fought him and continued to sin sometimes. We must not ever forget this fact -- ALL CHRISTIANS SIN! Only JESUS CHRIST and GOD can claim to be perfect. As the bible says, we are being transformed (all be it slowly) each day of our lives here.

Some people have a different idea of what a Christian is; so that could be part of the problem too. Some people believe that going to church makes them a Christian; but it does not. Being a good person is not enuff to make you a Christian either; that makes you a good person. You can be a good person, believe in GOD & JESUS, and be a Christian at the same time. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of JESUS CHRIST and also commits his heart and mind and body and soul and life to Him, so that He can perfect us ... but the completion of that perfection won't happen until we die.

Since UFI is a former bible teacher, she would know this is what the bible says. And yes, you are right, we are not supposed to cuss or do anything that would harm anyone else, but I have to confess that even sweet, little ole me; if I am pushed to my brink with hurt and anger, have been known to cuss on a "few" occasions in my life, which I indelibly regret. I don't mean to, but out it comes, becuz I am human ... then I am so annoyed with myself that I immediately apologize to GOD and ask for HIS forgiveness; which I know HE grants, through the grace and work of HIS son, JESUS CHRIST.

UFI ~ you are right -- it is not bam, conversion, free ticket to heaven, then go and resume your regular life. It is REPENT (meaning change your mind and change your ways), conversion = commitment, forgiven by grace when we repent, correction, then every day do the best we can to live as good as we can, and grow and improve throughout our entire lives.

Now, I have seen the other side too -- where self-righteous, judgemental people figure it's their God-given right to point out everyone else's flaws BUT not their own. I will never be perfect on this earth; I know that, and I know my flaws already and I am working on them. I have changed over my life; I am getting better, but also I know that I will make mistakes tomorrow, so I am sure glad that I can count on the grace that is available to me and everyone else who takes advantage of that free gift from the LORD.

DEAR BROTHER GARY ~ I will be prayin' about that cussin' at your workers .... :nono: ;) and I know that you will try much harder next time. :hug:

You know, that is why we need to be reminded all the time, as the bible writers said; mankind is notorious for forgetting things and needs to be reminded of our misconduct, for reproof and correction, but it takes time too. No, we are not supposed to excuse ourselves, but we do have an Advocate in JESUS CHRIST, who died for our sins (of yesterday, today, and tomorrow) to take away the guilt and shame; and who will forgive us, and help us to improve ourselves by the power of His Holy Spirit, who is our teacher ...

BOOTSIE ~ the bible says that we can select a few celebrations each year of our choice. If you want to celebrate Christmas or Easter, that is quite OK. There are a few churches that choose not to celebrate in the traditional and very commercial ways, but other churches think it is just fine, or choose their own style. I would recommend that you pick a church that is more in tune with your beliefs.

So what are we saying? What is wrong with churches or what is wrong with Christians, who are the church? hmmm ... it's a little of both, I think! I found myself saying once that I thought I was cursed, and immediately, a thought came right back at me, like a boomerang -- ALL MANKIND IS CURSED! And, what is that curse? We are flawed. Not only us, but the earth and all that is in it -- it is the human condition.

So churches are flawed, becuz we are flawed; but thank GOD for His perfect Holy Spirit and His perfect Son, JESUS CHRIST, who is the head of the church. So let us march on, dear soldiers ... to the light of day, press on, press on, press on ... :hug:

PS ~ my DH just walked in and wanted to add his 2 cents to this discussion and it was a doozy. He says that people who say they don't want to go to church becuz someone said this or did that are using that as an EXCUSE not to go to church! Oh my, that is food for thought, now isn't it???:)

Originally Posted by Ufi:
I don't say "hey you rainbow sticker," unless it is something that directly is in opposition to what they have on their car, such as "respect others," because driving like a maniac isn't respecting others. To me, when a person claims to be a Christian, there's a certain expectation that they act the part. Driving in a way that could cause someone else to crash is just not a loving thing to do. Christianity, or whatever your religion, is a 24-7 thing. Sure, people mess up. But it's a lot easier to forgive mistakes when you see someone is really trying.

I gave my old truck to my ex-wife...it had a JC sticker on it...her S.O. drives it from time to time...he is not a Christian...maybe the person that cut you off was borrowing the vehicle.

Aren't Christians supposed to be the light of the world? Isn't it reasonable to have a higher expectation of them because that is the path that they have chosen? I don't think it was mean to be bam, conversion, free ticket to Heaven, now resume your normal life.

But wasn't the example of bumper stickers I gave a showing of "unity - equality and love for all"....wouldn't you assume that they too would drive responsibly? I have been cut off by these people too. Are you saying it is OK for them but not for a person with a fish sticker?

I have never ever met a Christian that thought for one second that Christianity was a bam...free path to Heaven...resume your normal life. Really... have you? Since you have studied the Bible I would think that.... MATTHEW 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.".....would come to mind for those that may have said that to you.



Since the Bible says not to. Ephesians 4, verse 29 to the end, on through chapter 5, verse 4 ("nor should there be obscenity ...")

Very true. I too have my cussing and anger outbursts! But I know they are far less as my walk progresses! I would be "****" to be around at work sometimes if I hadn't become a Christian! To be honest it would be ugly...my guys are good men...but man oh man can they do the stupidest things...things that are very dangerous to others on a construction site!

I don't mean to make you feel bad. I used to be a Bible studies teacher, many years ago. My point is: If you claim it, then own it. Really be responsible for your beliefs and what they mean in your life. Then, people will look at the way you act and know that there's something about you. They'll be drawn to it, as an ambassador of God to the world. At least, that's the way I believe it's supposed to work.

Thank you...and no you don't make me feel bad at all. I appreciate your input. I do claim to be a Christian and I do own it...each and every day....sometimes I do wonderful things....and sometimes I fail. I am a work in progress :)

Originally Posted by :
But wasn't the example of bumper stickers I gave a showing of "unity - equality and love for all"....wouldn't you assume that they too would drive responsibly? I have been cut off by these people too. Are you saying it is OK for them but not for a person with a fish sticker?

I have never ever met a Christian that thought for one second that Christianity was a bam...free path to Heaven...resume your normal life. Really... have you? Since you have studied the Bible I would think that.... MATTHEW 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.".....would come to mind for those that may have said that to you.

On the bumper sticker, it is wrong for everyone to drive recklessly, even if you have rude bumper sticker. But it is also additionally wrong for those who profess a certain belief to act in a way that is counter to that. Therefore, it is extra wrong for BOTH the unity sticker and the fish sticker people to drive recklessly. If someone has one of those mean little kid peeing on something stickers, then they're not violating the principles they're professing, so the only thing they're doing is being a reckless driver. People set the standards they are judged by, so to speak. If that makes sense.

I have often thought of that verse regarding people who claim to be what they're not. While people haven't told me in words that they expect they can be a Christian and continue on with their lives unchanged, they've said it in deeds. And that, to get back to your original question, is why I think some people don't go to church. They don't see any difference between Christians and nonchristians.

It crossed my mind that it may have come across that I was bragging by pointing out that I used to be a teacher, but what I meant in saying that was that might be the reason I was familiar with that verse when you might not be, so I didn't want you to feel bad. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

We're all works in progress, regardless of our beliefs. Some of us are just progressing in different directions. :) The goal is to have clear eyes to see where we need work and a willing heart to constantly strive. Not everyone does that.

Originally Posted by Justwant2Bhealthy:
the bible says that we can select a few celebrations each year of our choice.

? I know this is OT, and a short answer will be plenty, but I have never heard this. Where does the bible say that?

Originally Posted by Ufi:
On the bumper sticker, it is wrong for everyone to drive recklessly, even if you have rude bumper sticker. But it is also additionally wrong for those who profess a certain belief to act in a way that is counter to that. Therefore, it is extra wrong for BOTH the unity sticker and the fish sticker people to drive recklessly. If someone has one of those mean little kid peeing on something stickers, then they're not violating the principles they're professing, so the only thing they're doing is being a reckless driver. People set the standards they are judged by, so to speak. If that makes sense.

Maybe I am reading you wrong but I am getting the feeling that if...me for example...tries to show others that I am a christian by professing it...going to church...wearing a cross...Jesus T-shirt or a window sticker...AND....then do anything at all against God's moral law then you consider me a hypocrit?

I have often thought of that verse regarding people who claim to be what they're not. While people haven't told me in words that they expect they can be a Christian and continue on with their lives unchanged, they've said it in deeds. And that, to get back to your original question, is why I think some people don't go to church. They don't see any difference between Christians and nonchristians.

Humm...some people don't go to church because they don't see any difference between Christians and non-christians. What is ONE THING you would like to see different between a Christian and a non-christian?...just one thing that would set them apart.

It crossed my mind that it may have come across that I was bragging by pointing out that I used to be a teacher, but what I meant in saying that was that might be the reason I was familiar with that verse when you might not be, so I didn't want you to feel bad. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I never felt like you were bragging and I never felt bad.

We're all works in progress, regardless of our beliefs. Some of us are just progressing in different directions. :) The goal is to have clear eyes to see where we need work and a willing heart to constantly strive. Not everyone does that.

I disagree....for some, because of their beliefs, there is no progress. My eyes are clear solely because of the person and work of my Savior. My heart is willing but my actions are human :)

JULIE ~ bible.com :D

I searched for "celebration" and found nothing.

Originally Posted by JulieJ08:
I searched for "celebration" and found nothing.

I didn't think that the Bible gave you choices on which things to believe or celebrate? I was raised in the church, taught Bible studies myself as a younger person, lived with pastors and deacons my whole life. I don't remember anything saying you can pick whether you choose to celebrate Christmas or Easter? Actual citation please. :)

Sorry Julie, quoted the wrong person, meant that for JustWant2BeHealthy. :)

JULIE and others ~ I was speaking of "holidays" in general (citing Christmas & Easter as examples only, to Bootsie about her question); and in the bible, holidays & celebrations of the day were often referred to as "Festivals" et al ... this verse says all that is needed really -- no one has the right to judge us on what festivals we want to celebrate ...

Colossians 2:16 (Whole Chapter in context) ... and specifically ~

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a *FESTIVAL* or a new moon or a Sabbath."


Thanks for the questions, ladies ... GOD BLESS YOU BOTH!

PS -- when I find the one I was referring to, I'll pass it on too; I'll keep my eyes open for it for you.

Justwant2Bhealthy,

Thank you. TBH, from what you said I would have never thought of this verse or really paraphrased it that way. But thanks. I was just confused by what you said. I never thought of the Bible as telling me or giving me permission to choose holidays. I think that's rather different than not being judged by what holidays you observe. But YMMM. Just threw me for a loop.

Originally Posted by :
Maybe I am reading you wrong but I am getting the feeling that if...me for example...tries to show others that I am a christian by professing it...going to church...wearing a cross...Jesus T-shirt or a window sticker...AND....then do anything at all against God's moral law then you consider me a hypocrit?

The Bible, such as in Matthew 6 and 23, defines hypocrites as those who portray themselves as righteous but who are not on the inside. It is not for me to say regarding you specifically. That is between you and God. How would you define it?

As far as one thing that would help someone spot a Christian, it would be someone who is clearly a follower of Christ. That sounds simplistic, but in reality it is very difficult and challenging. It isn't just one behavior, such as striving to act with wisdom or providing for those who need help or speaking with love instead of trying to stir someone else to feel bad. It's a whole and constant package of behaviors constantly compared against the measuring stick of love.

Originally Posted by Ufi:
The Bible, such as in Matthew 6 and 23, defines hypocrites as those who portray themselves as righteous but who are not on the inside. It is not for me to say regarding you specifically. That is between you and God. How would you define it?

:cool: Cool...I am OK then...I do not portray myself as being righteous...I portray myself as a sinner...one in need of my Savior's forgiveness.

As far as one thing that would help someone spot a Christian, it would be someone who is clearly a follower of Christ. That sounds simplistic, but in reality it is very difficult and challenging. It isn't just one behavior, such as striving to act with wisdom or providing for those who need help or speaking with love instead of trying to stir someone else to feel bad. It's a whole and constant package of behaviors constantly compared against the measuring stick of love.

I respectfully disagree...I think the EASIEST thing in the world to do/be is a Christian! Nothing difficult at all about it....not challenging....just a matter of wanting a relationship with Christ. If the rest of your paragraph is refering to me then let me say...first ....I am wisdom challenged!....second....I may at times try to "stir" up conversation but I never want anyone to feel bad about what I say...I just try to share my message...just as many others do here in their threads. The only measuring stick I count on is Christ...and I ain't never gonna reach that one here on earth!

I think its easy to being a Christian too, just follow your heart in loving Jesus, Jesus is Amazing! We all make mistakes ,right, sometimes some real doozies right? Hey somewhere in the Bible some men asked Jesus how many times must I forgive , can anyone tell me where that passage is and what did Jesus say? I know it says that somewhere.....