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Old 01-08-2015, 07:56 PM   #16  
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Originally Posted by PrimalLarry View Post
Faiora,
This is carb counters. And you know if a few people were overweight or obese or diabetic then maybe I wouldn't be so passionate.

But carb intake is literally killing us, our economy, our future. No most of us do NOT get to choose. If you are insulin resistant then you have a carb allergy so to speak. If you have a peanut allergy you don't get to eat peanuts

And yes someone choosing to eat too many carbs does impact me and my child. It is cracking our medical system and whole economy. We literally, collectively, can no longer afford it.
Yes, it's clear you're passionate on the subject. And I do appreciate that this thread is on the carb counting forum. And I don't take issue with the specific articles posted or the information given. I think you're intelligent and I think you care about people, which are both important things.

But by saying things like "carb intake is literally killing us, our economy, our future" and "someone choosing to eat too many carbs does impact me and my child" and "It is cracking our medical system and whole economy" you are alienating people just for eating carbs, regardless of their approach to carbs or their reasons for doing it.

People who lose weight on high carb diets, and people who are healthy on high carb diets are not "special." They've simply taken a healthier approach and thought more about their food choices, just like you have.

Most people who are eating high amounts of carbs are doing so because they don't think about their diet at all, and I would agree that the default diet in the US (and most first world countries, really) is no good. But the default diet does not describe all high carb diets.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:31 AM   #17  
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I think most people are concerned about themselves, their loved ones, family, friends, and their larger community. So I bring this up because it is real. We kind of shove it under the rug, but medical costs are quickly becoming unsustainable. Not to mention the medical system itself. This is irrespective of Obamacare, no Obamacare, single payer, whatever. They system is rapidly reaching the breaking point. We, collectively, literally HAVE to get healthier.

And for many there simply is no choice. If you are diabetic you are insulin resistant, period, regardless of weight. If you are 20-30 lbs overweight you are likely insulin resistant. Insulin is the fat storage hormone. Yes you have a choice to be unhealthy, yes you have a choice to contribute to the straining medical system, to take meds the rest of your life. But most people here want to be healthy. And for many, not all, there is simply no choice but to go low carb high fat to be healthy. They are insulin resistant, it is the only thing that will heal, will work.

Again this is not everyone. But it is true for many.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:34 AM   #18  
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Back to the original topic. There was a part two to the story you can find here:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/9-mor...#axzz3OL2azOTX

Then there was this awesome comment, not left by me.


How the body handles, partitions, uses and absorbs energy is NOT at all addressed by the first law of thermodynamics, or more accurately, conservation of energy principle.

Nor does the conservation of energy principle deal with fat cell regulation /hoarding/dysregulation specifically.

The conservation of energy is merely a very peculiar and abstract mathematical statement that says there is a quantity that does not change in the manifold; changes Nature undergoes as Richard Phillips Feynman stressed.

The conservation of energy principle is merely a “state equation” and cannot and does NOT say anything about where the energy came from or where it is stored.

I have studied this topic for 6 years straight, talked to over 50 physicists in this area. They ALL stressed the conservation of of energy principle is being abused and misused by Blog authors to blame and patronize obese people. . Obesity is a biochemical phenomenon. It is NOT a matter of basic thermodynamics….. yes, it applies to all life and , is valid and relevant int he background, HOWEVER, it is not nearly SUFFICIENT to explain fat cell regulation and obesity. There is FARRR more going on here than mere energy balance. Energy balance does not at all deal with WHAT FORM SPECIFICALLY of mass is lost or gained. You can have very fatty ‘smaller ” people who only lost “weight.”, NOT mainly fat.

There is nothing in the first law of thermodynamics which “requires” excess energy be converted to fat and stored as fat on the body . That is something the body actively decides to do. It is NOT something that just automatically happens in the absence of anything else being done with those calories. It COULD, but does NOT have to. That is ONE OPTION only.

You can poop out energy. You can waste. energy as dissipated heat

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Old 01-09-2015, 10:51 AM   #19  
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I think this can be a very educational story. I heard about it from Sam Feltham who is a blogger in London.

He was talking about a famous Olympic British athlete. This man won 5, yes 5 consecutive gold medals. Yet at his last Olympics he was visibly carrying 20 extra pounds around the middle Sam stated.

Note he probably was exercising more daily than most of us do in a couple of weeks or a month. But he was eating high carbs. Nothing his body could do but produce insulin, which again is the master fat storage hormone. He became diabetic. Note his dad was also. Does this mean they were both fated to?

NO WAY. Let me repeat that NO WAY. It does mean they had a genetic propensity to diabetes. Perhaps someone else eating the same diet would not have gotten it. Perhaps someone else eating the same diet would have gotten it much sooner.

So even though this guy was probably the poster boy for calories in calories out, burning vast amounts of calories a day he couldn't not gain the 20 gut pounds. Why? Metabolism, hormones, an actual living human body interacting with the type of foods it is given, not a bomb calorimeter in a lab.

Another fascinating aside Sam mentioned. It turns out over the last 30 years or so Brits are eating FEWER calories. That is right they should be getting slimmer if calories in calories out were true. But the type of calories has massively changed. Way more carbs/sugars, processed foods. And yes Britain has a diabetes and obesity explosion just like the U.S.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Diabete...eRedgrave.aspx
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Old 01-09-2015, 12:27 PM   #20  
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I used to obsess about not eating carbs and my weightloss had slowed down. As soon as i started to eat carbs again the weight easily falls off now. I do workout so that could be part of it.
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Old 01-09-2015, 01:21 PM   #21  
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People have a range. Also if you are not on high fat, protein turns into carbs. So people on a high protein diet even if they have low carbs are technically not on a low carb diet.

I also occasionally on purpose go higher carb for a day or so every week or so. There is some research to back that up. But never grains and certainly never gluten. Sweet potatoes or regular potatoes, bean occasionally.

Many folk don't realize your body turns protein into glucose if you have too much. Not saying this was the case here, but they go low carb high protein not high fat. The high protein diet is in reality a high carb diet because of the way the body works.

But as long as you are in your range for weight loss and gaining, or at least not losing muscle and believe you are not producing too much insulin for good health, then going higher on carbs can work for some people.
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Old 01-10-2015, 06:47 PM   #22  
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Quote:
The high protein diet is in reality a high carb diet because of the way the body works.
No it is not. Why do all the conversations like this start sensible and end up with nonsense?

Jesus turned water into wine, but there ain't no way even he could turn this little puppy into carbs.

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Old 01-10-2015, 07:25 PM   #23  
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Look up gluconeogenesis, it is a real thing Ian. Why just say no it's not? Did you research it first?

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Old 01-10-2015, 07:46 PM   #24  
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Proof Ian is correct:

Google: Metabolic Effects of the Very-Low-Carbohydrate Diets: Misunderstood "Villains" of Human Metabolism

I'm too new here to provide the link.
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Old 01-10-2015, 08:37 PM   #25  
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I'm not referring to low carb diets, but high protein diets metabolicaly can act like a HIGH carb diet by turning into glucose prompting insulin, fat storage, and all the other things you don't want by consuming too many carbs.

All Ian said was protein cannot be turned into carbs which is simply wrong.
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:39 PM   #26  
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Proof Ian is correct:

Google: Metabolic Effects of the Very-Low-Carbohydrate Diets: Misunderstood "Villains" of Human Metabolism

I'm too new here to provide the link.
I had a look at the article. One thing that had me scratching my head was:

<<Contrary to popular belief supported by the leading physiology and biochemistry textbooks, there is sufficient population of glucose transporters in all cell membranes at all times to ensure enough glucose uptake to satisfy the cell's respiration, even in the absence of insulin [21]. Insulin can and does increase the number of these transporters in some cells but glucose uptake is never truly insulin dependent.>>

Try telling that to people with type-1 diabetes.

F.

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Old 01-12-2015, 04:10 PM   #27  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimalLarry View Post
People have a range. Also if you are not on high fat, protein turns into carbs. So people on a high protein diet even if they have low carbs are technically not on a low carb diet.

I also occasionally on purpose go higher carb for a day or so every week or so. There is some research to back that up. But never grains and certainly never gluten. Sweet potatoes or regular potatoes, bean occasionally.

Many folk don't realize your body turns protein into glucose if you have too much. Not saying this was the case here, but they go low carb high protein not high fat. The high protein diet is in reality a high carb diet because of the way the body works.

But as long as you are in your range for weight loss and gaining, or at least not losing muscle and believe you are not producing too much insulin for good health, then going higher on carbs can work for some people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanG View Post
No it is not. Why do all the conversations like this start sensible and end up with nonsense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimalLarry View Post
Look up gluconeogenesis, it is a real thing Ian. Why just say no it's not? Did you research it first?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimalLarry View Post
I'm not referring to low carb diets, but high protein diets metabolicaly can act like a HIGH carb diet by turning into glucose prompting insulin, fat storage, and all the other things you don't want by consuming too many carbs.

All Ian said was protein cannot be turned into carbs which is simply wrong.
The issue here is the statement that gluconeogenesis turns a high-protein diet into a high-carb diet. This is not the case.

Just because your body must convert certain amino acids to glucose (in an effort to feed your brain, by the way; because we require glucose to function) does not mean it is turning all the protein you eat into carbs. Eating high amounts of protein does not result in your body converting all that protein into an overabundant supply of carbs.

And anyway, the term "diet" refers to what you're eating, not what your body is making out of what you eat. So no, there's no other "reality." A low carb diet is a low carb diet.

Is all of this talk given in an effort to prove that some people are "special" and that's why they do well on high carb diets? That they would do better on a high protein diet? If so, again, I think you're stepping on toes, and could try to be more supportive of people who make choices that are different from yours.
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:51 PM   #28  
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Renew Me I absolutely loved your comment and I 100% agree!!! I didn't think very many people thought like this and it's so nice. I think its SO TRUE and just makes sense as to why so many different diets work for different people.

I heard of a native american group of people who were suffering from health problems and stomach problems... But when they switched to eating bison, as their people traditionally did instead of cow, their health problems started to dissapear!!!

I think as soon as we try to say "this, this ONE thing RIGHT here" is the cause of all problems, we will always fail. Especially in north America, at least my neck of the woods (Canada). We are very multicultural and there are people with so many different historied and backgrounds whose ancestors grew up eating different foods. It's my personal opinion, but I think it holds some ground. I think some people can't eat gluten or high carbs, but I don't think its the answer for everybody.

Kind of reminds me of one of those jokes... Don't remember exactly how it goes but it compares how a bunch of different countires eat and drink and how they all live longer/are healthier than Americans and the conclusion (and punchline of the joke) is that being american is really what kills you.
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