Thanks All! Bambi Im considering buying "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle". book and downloading it.

No, there are most certainly NOT vegans who eat animals of ANY kind...Vegans don't eat ANY animal products, ever (not even honey!). Veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle that excludes the use of animals and animal products for any purpose. Vegans do not use or consume animal products of any kind.

Vegetarians don't eat animals either (yes, fish and sea creatures are in the animal kingdom too).

That all being said, vegans and vegetarians alike do eat a wide variety of diets, some are higher in certain nutrients than others, depending on individual choice.

I guess my sister wasn't such a "pure" vegan (cuz she ate shellfish)!:lol: Not knocking the "Vegan" lifestyle, but as you have said in previous posts, IT IS HARD doing Atkins (a high protein diet) while being a Vegan.

Here's another exerpt from Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle you may find interesting:

A pure vegetarian (Vegan) diet is not conducive to building muscle, and a diet that is not conducive to building muscle is also not conducive to getting and staying lean. One thing you will never see is a rock-hard, massive and muscular vegan. Lacto-vegetarians (Those who use dairy products) and ovo-lacto-vegetarians (Those who use eggs and dairy products) can build excellent physiques. Bodybuilding champion Bill Pearl is just one example. Pearl is well known for his lifelong aversion to eating meat, but he does use
complete proteins from eggs or dairy products. With this semi-vegetarian approach, Pearl won the Mr. America and Mr. Universe titles and became a legend in the bodybuilding and fitness world.

You can get fit, healthy and lean without consuming animal proteins, but unless you at least include eggs, dairy or protein powders, you will never develop a muscular physique. If a lean and muscular physique is what you're after, then heed the advice of Robert Kennedy, publisher of Muscle Mag International and author of "Rock Hard, Super Nutrition for Bodybuilders:"
"The bodybuilder would be ill-advised to adopt a true vegetarian diet. You can be one of the millions who are eating less meat and more vegetables. You may even want to drop all flesh entirely. But it would be a mistake to try for pure vegetarianism. Only 3.7% of Americans consider themselves to be vegetarians, and of those only a fraction of 1% are purists. In the bodybuilding world of champions, that percentage is currently.... ZERO!"

Please post the names of any top Bodybuilding Vegan purist. I would be interested to read about them.:smug:

No, I guess she wasn't even vegetarian, much less vegan! :o

Thats an interesting read, for sure. Unfortunately, he is sadly misinformed about several things. The diet he described that Bill Pearl eats isn't "semi-vegetarian" at all, it's lacto-ovo vegetarian.

The building blocks of muscle are amino acids, and the idea that one needs to get "complete proteins" combined at the same meal or they will not be useful is a fallacy that was thrown out years ago.

I know of several very muscular, fit and healthy vegans IRL.

There are examples of pro athletes who are vegan and at the top of their game too...Some aren't "body builders" but I included them anyway.

Here's a great site: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

And another: http://www.veganfitness.net/

Mac Danzig is a vegan Ultimate Fighting Champion too. http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=Tuf.Danzig

Robert Cheeke is a vegan and a professional bodybuilder http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/rob...ketraining.htm

Kenneth Williams is a vegan and a professional bodybuilder (I've actually met him in person) http://veganmusclepower.org

Brendan Brazier is a vegan and a professional triathlete (I've met him too) http://www.vegparadise.com/athlete5.html

Christine Vardaros is a vegan and a world class cycle cross racer.
http://christinevardaros.blogspot.com/

SoulBliss - I'm glad you posted those links. I made quite an interesting find. While the female Vegan bodybuilders and athletes were thin, IMO, they were definately not worthy of the cover of fitness magazine! And the male Vegan bodybuilders were kind of "small" and somewhat "soft"...hardly the kind of muscle you would find in a Mr. Universe! So, my point remains you will not be able to grow muscle without the building blocks (Protein) which is where you get your amino acids. Additionally, as I posted here earlier, your body produces 11 amino acids naturally, you only need to consume 9! However, it is suggested that by bodybuilding experts that you consume all 20 (kind of and insurance policy). Mr. Venuto's book is "real" and may not be what everybody wants to hear...but I'm always in favor of truth and logic...so that may make me a bit thicker-skinned than most.

As far as sis and her Vegan attempt...I try to stay away from "labelling" people. That's something she was interested in and so...hey...that's her! Personally, I don't believe in "lifestyles" or labelling myself as a "purist" of any kind as I find that attitude to be "narcicistic"..."isolating", and somewhat "supremesist". As it turns out, only 1% are really "pure vegans" anyway. So I say, to each his own...whatever works for you.

I was simply trying to give the OP the best information on her question on 'How much protein' she should consume daily'. BTW, the Vegan bodybuilders had a diet rich in tofu, and other high protein foods which would further support Mr. Venturo's logic and biologist as well, in stating:
"You can get fit, healthy and lean without consuming animal proteins, but unless you at least include eggs, dairy or protein powders, you will never develop a muscular physique."

It's great that you mention truth and logic...Because that's where I come from too, especially when it comes to veganism. In fact that's exactly why I feel it's good to empower people with the truth and using logic...Veganism is what it is and isn't what it isn't, you know? It's not a matter of "superiority" or even "purity" or anything even vaguely like that.

It's like someone saying they are Catholic but they actually are polygamists. That's not logical, is it? :lol: Now, both are lifestyle choices that come with a label (one they chose to use for themselves, however inaccurately) and I would not say that one was any better or worse than the other...it's a personal choice! That being said, accuracy is important. Similarly, if a person says they are "vegan" but eat any animal products, that's not logical or factual at all. Why would anyone try to claim a label that doesn't reflect who and what they are?

Not sure I want to get into this discussion but I will since I follow a different low carb diet which actually puts an emphasis on protein. The general recommendation in Protein Power is about 1 gram per lb of lean body mass. I generally eat somewhere between 100-150 grams/day with no problems. As long as you have normal kidneys, you should not have problems with higher protein content to your diet. Despite the emphasis on protein, my diet is still more fat than protein (probably true of all diets than can be truly labelled low carb). I eat about 50% fat and 35% protein. As has already been said, excess calories from any source have the potential to turn to fat if not burned off.

If you think about it, body builders have been eating high protein diets for many years without any major problems. Good luck.

soulbliss-do you mean polytheists?

No, but that would work too, since just as polyamory/polygamy isn't in alignment with Catholic principles, neither is polytheism.

Ever heard of a Catholic Priest molesting young boys??? They still label themselves Priest...right? I guess I could cay, "I'm a dowhateveriwantist" and that's my "lifestyle"...I mean...common..it's ridiculous IMO...but that's me. Remember only 1% of self-proclaimed vegetarians/vegans are truly that "pure" or in another words...actually a VEGAN! So, I'm afraid your going to have to ask the 99% who are fraudulent why they are proclaiming to be something they are not. As for me...I dance to the beat of my own drum and one thing I think we can both agree upon is the importance to proper nutrition and exercise (as I see you've exceeded your Black Team challenge..GO YOU!). I don't put anyone down for any "lifestyle" they may have as long as it doesn't infringe upon me or my "dowhateveriwant" lifestyle!:D

I have known of such abhorrent behavior. It's called hypocrisy, sexual perversion and mental illness. :( I am sure that real Catholics don't want anyone to claim to be Catholic who are so obviously NOT following the basic tenants of their creed!

As far as veganism is concerned, you're preaching to the choir, girl! I AM that 1% who is vegan. ;) I think you misunderstood me though...Perhaps I was not clear.

I am not saying that 99% of the vegetarians are calling themselves vegan fraudulently. There's a BIG difference between a "vegetarian" and a "vegan". There are some vegetarians who eat eggs but no dairy, still others eat honey but no eggs and so on. They are ALL "vegetarian". Vegans don't EVER eat animal products, there's no gray area there or room for variation.

Most people call themselves what they are, in reality, especially once they know the accurate definitions of the terms they are using. I mean, why would they lie to themselves or others once they knew the truth, right? ;)

The numbers are what they are and I think it's important to note that the most recent Harris polls put the numbers at about this: 2.8% of the US is vegetarian (may or may not eat eggs, dairy, honey) and up to half of those are vegan (do not eat any animal products).

All that being said, I too am a "do what I like-ist" and continue to do what works for me and is the most ethical, reasonable choice for ME personally. Were my needs to change, I'd change the terms I use to identify and describe my lifestyle and philosophy accordingly, ya know? It's only logical to do so. ;)

I know people that call themselves vegetarians, vegans, Catholics... because it is the lifestyle/religion/philosophy they follow, and yet they're not perfect at it. So a person who intends to never eat/use meat products may actually "lapse" occasionally. If a person doesn't eat meat or use meat products, but lapses occasionally when does the label of vegetarian/vegan become inappropriate? If they eat meat or an animal product once a month, once a year, once a decade? If the lapse takes away the label or "title" when do they legitimately get it back - a day, a week, a month, a year?

A lot of times, even the black & white issues have shades of gray.

This thread has gotten pretty far away from the question of whether or not protein turns to fat and how much protein it is safe to eat.

Yes, and the sky appears blue. :lol: Both these statements are true but don't contribute to the original topic. :carrot:

So.........do you have anything else to contribute to the topic, on topic? ;)

This is what I've got and I think this sums it up:

Any excess calorie eaten can turn into fat.

The basic suggestion for protein intake for people without kidney issues is 1 gram per pound of weight.

That's about it, right? ;)

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-7378307.html

Yes, true...but it's kind of interesting...I think. I don't mind exchanging different point of views. Kind of like the "3FC's version of THE VIEW".:lol:

The truth is there is no scientific answer to the question of how much protein to too much..too little. There has not been enough absolute or conclusive studies performed in this regard, that is why the National Research Counsil has only established an RDA (recommended daily allowance). But, it's just that...recommended. I tend to go with the recommendations of a bodybuilder, while you may go with the recommendations of your doctor/nutritionist. The only thing that can determine that answer...is YOU. You have to tweek your nutrient ratios and using the suggestions made (by whatever authority you chose), is a good starting point for anyone, IMO.:hug: