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Old 01-16-2005, 09:42 AM   #1  
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Default Demystifying the scale

I decided to do this thread because I basically cringe every time people talk about weighing themselves once a week or so and then getting upset if they've 'only' lost a pound, or gained a pound. It is very easy for a 2 lb body fat loss, a spectacular result, to get lost in normal daily weight variations. There are some obvious ways to measure a more consistent weight: measure at the same time, on the same scale, and wearing the same clothes (or none), but the hydration level of your body is a funny thing.

I had a real hard time with this when I started maintenance, until I read in several sports nutrition books that one of the best ways to figure out if you're getting dehydrated is to weigh yourself before and after exercise. I tried it, and in the summer that could be several pounds lost for me in less than an hour, even drinking a lot. That really got me thinking about the impact of hydration levels on weight. I took it a step farther then and experimented with weighing myself before and after meals, using the bathroom, showering, different times of day. Over several days, I'd notice differences, sometimes big differences, due to menstrual cycle, quantity and quality of calories, exercise including muscle soreness and dehydration, etc. I came to the conclusion that hyrdation levels are the largest, by far, reason for short term weight changes and must be properly accounted for in using weight as a measure of body fat loss. I cannot do that with one weight measurement in a week.

These are my real weights (in lbs) over the last couple of days. They are measured on my home scale while not wearing any clothes, unless otherwise noted. My other stats: between 5'7" and 5'8" tall, BMI hovers around 27, body fat is 25-27% or so, and I'm a real comfortable size 12 getting into a 10 once in a while. I'm hovering at the top end of my maintenance range right now. For the record, I usually only weigh myself about twice a day, unless I'm trying to assess dehydration when I exercise in the heat (this is Tucson after all), when I also weigh myself before and after exercise. I did this log to illustrate the point. Gain/loss is only calculated where the scale and state of dress didn't change between weigh-ins.

Code:
Time          Weight	G/L  Note

Thursday

9:25 pm         175.2	****	Before bed

Friday

2:05 am         174.0	-1.2	Bathroom (BR)
4:20 am         173.4	-0.6	Up for the day
5:20 am         176.2	+2.8	After b'fast
5:25 am         174.8	-1.4	BR
5:50 am         174.0	-0.8	After shower & BR
6:00 am         177.2	****	Dressed, no shoes (D)
6:30 am         176.0	-1.2	Leaving for work, D

7:20 am         169	****	Work scale (W), D
8:50 am         170.5	+1.5	After snack & BR, W,D
11:20 a         168.5	-1.5	Before lunch, W,D
12:00 p         170.5	+2.0	After lunch, W,D

4:00 pm         176.4	****	Home, D

Saturday

12:15 a         178.2	+1.8	Home, D, after dinner & show
12:20 a         175.4	****	Undressed, ready for bed (!)
5:00 am         173.6	-1.8	BR
6:45 am		172.6	-1.0	Up for day
8:00 am		174.0	+1.4	After b'fast
9:15 am		172.6	-1.4	After exercise

6:00 pm		176.6	+4.0	After dinner
8:30 pm		176.6	+0.0	Ready for bed

Sunday
	
5:15 am		174.2	-2.4	Up for day
Total measured gains: 13.5 lbs. Total measured losses: 13.3 lbs. Net gain for two days: 0.8 lbs.

Daily circumstances: Friday was a long day, dogs woke me up extra early, went to work and then to dinner and a show with my parents and DH. Got home very late and pretty much fell into bed. Saturday, got up, worked out, went shopping, then came home and relaxed and went to bed little early. My calories both days were about 2200 calories, close to my maintenance level, and I had reasonably healthy food--no big sugar binges. More veggies on Friday than Saturday. So, should be very minimal change to my body fat levels. Neither were particularly exceptional days, either good or bad.

Over just slightly more than 48 hrs, I logged over 13 lbs of both gains and losses. Noticing there were long periods of time when I couldn't get to the scale, or couldn't assess a change due to other variables, scale, clothing, etc, the real changes certainly added up to much more than that. These are real WEIGHT changes due to normal fluid variations over a couple days. They are NOT body fat changes. That is a big number--13 lbs. Even the morning numbers I formally track (173.4, 172.6, & 174.2) changed by more than a pound.

Over time, I found other factors affect my weight pretty consistently (you guys will have to take my word for these).

                If any of these events happen, I make a mental adjustment to my weight, and then watch to see if it returns to normal. There may be other factors I haven't discovered yet.

                So what was the lesson for me? How do I use weight as a tool to track where I am? For me personally, I look for PATTERNS. For example:

                        My assessment of the two days above based on my normal patterns: I'm still on the high end of my weight range from the marathon, but I'm happy that I'm back in it now. I need to make sure that drops another pound or two in the next couple days. If it doesn't, I need to look at the possibility that some of the 'carbo loading' from last week has gone to my butt--I wasn't eating so well last week and that could have lasting implications. I did reasonably well on the food plan these two days, even with a lot of eating out and such, but the scale wasn't budging. Fine for maintenance, but I'd still like to drop a few more pounds. I need to step that up a notch, carve out a couple hundred calories a day, and get the scale moving in the right direction again.

                        Now, the number on the scale is very emotional for most women and I'm not immune to its effect either. For many people, weighing once a week is a fine and sane method for tracking body fat loss. If that's working for you keep doing it. But the only thing that worked for me was understanding the my weight patterns, and that requires more data. If a small weight gain after a week or two of hard, on-plan work upsets you, I'm a strong advocate for understanding your weight patterns, and seeing how those play into the weekly number. I would also recommend that this is not a license to kid yourself about weight gain to be concerned about, more than a couple off plan days for example, but it is good to have the facts in to make an appropriate plan.

                        Last edited by AnneWonders; 01-16-2005 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Spelling, reformat table
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                        Old 01-16-2005, 10:01 AM   #2  
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                        Hey!

                        I totally agree with you on this. My mum won some electronic scales and since then I can weigh myself whenever I want when I'm living at home. It's interesting to see your weight jump up and down a lot and I've realised that it's more important to look for patterns than anything else. The different weights of clothes can be suprising too so when you weigh yourself in public it's difficult to take that into account.

                        Dill
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 05:02 AM   #3  
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                        Hi Anne,
                        Thanks for a great post. I totally agree with you about the hydration factor. That really makes a very big difference. Also the time of day, having had coffe or wine (make you loose fluid) or much salt ( makes you retain fluid). So I try to look at the patterns as well. I weigh daily to keep on track and also if you have more data and average over the week you get a much more reliable number than just weighing once a week.
                        Typically my scales don't budge and then I have a loosing spurt. At the moment I seem to be in a gaining spurt and I am seriously looking at the food intake (too much snacking over the last days & drank not enough water)

                        have a good day
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 05:34 AM   #4  
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by wndranne
                        the only thing that worked for me was understanding my weight patterns, and that requires more data.
                        Anne

                        This is turning out to be the thing which works for me, too.

                        I log what's important for me. That's my am and pm weight, amount of sleep, exercise, nutrition (time and content of meals) and sometimes other factors (for example, location, mood) - all on the same double page spread. And it's only since doing this that I've been losing weight. And losing it well.

                        Data seem to be the theme of my life at the moment.

                        Thanks for sharing yours with us.
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 05:46 AM   #5  
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                        Anne - THANK YOU for taking the time to put your data together for us! Those numbers make the point about the limitations of the scale so well.

                        Rabbit - I lose in chunks too. Of course, I seem to gain in massive chunks also, but I know that's water weight. I read that one gram of carbs will hold on to 3-4 grams of water, so if I have a carb fest, that's why the scale shoots up several pounds overnight. I hate it though!
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 09:12 AM   #6  
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                        Thanks Dill, rabbit, Silverbirch, & Meg. And thanks to everyone who made it through that long post. I was beginning to think I was some kind of a weight-control weirdo--the advice to weigh-in very seldom is just so ubiquitous. And it is quite possibly, again for me personally, the worst advice I picked up. So naturally I am actually very curious about the topic. Do weekly or so weigh-ins work, at least emotionally, for anyone? Is it a loss vs maintenance issue? How much data do you need to see a pattern? Anybody else have any useful patterns to offer up? [I deliberately left my questions out of the original post because you guys can sometimes take things in new and enlightening directions, and also because the post was way too long as it was!]

                        Ditto on the losing in chunks, BTW. I was actually sort of hoping that would happen in the two days I logged, again to illustrate the point. But it ended up illustrating another point to me--there is some level of unpredictability in all this!
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 09:33 AM   #7  
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                        I think the most interesting thing I gleaned from Anne's post was that 'this lady knows her own body'.

                        I'm gonna rhyme off some of my own behaviours in the genre of 'I had no idea' but I've heard and seen this sort of thing numerous times from other people.

                        .... what should I set my activity level at? am I sedentary .... oh I don't think so
                        .... I don't eat very much and I hardly ever nibble while I'm cooking
                        .... I'm strong. I'm a nurse don't I have to be strong?
                        .... I don't think I'm in bad shape for my age
                        .... I can lose 8 pounds whenever I want
                        .... I'm going to do the blah blah diet because it worked for "Jane"

                        I tried to track my dehydration patterns at work but the other staff made comments about me weighing myself all the time so I quit.

                        If we don't know our own bodies, patterns .... I just don't even know what to say ...

                        As for weekly weigh ins ... IMO ... they probably give a more true reading of actual body weigh loss than weighing everyday. As in 'if it's gone in a week, it must really be gone'. But as soon as I think that I think 'well all but period week'. Which leads me to once a month, after your period but yikes .... that's not enough control for me.

                        OK, sorry, I got to rambling. What I really wanted to say was that I admire Anne's dedication to learning about her own body and think more folks should do the same.
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 11:46 AM   #8  
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                        Anne I love that you laid out all of your scientific observations. I think that type of exercise is very educational, for the very reason that it teaches that there is a HUGE amount of fluctuation in our weight.

                        You are right, that number IS an incredible source of emotion, and the only way to counteract emotion is with hard data. I try to tell people over and over that if you experience NEGATIVE emotion every time you get on the scale, or if you DEPEND on seeing numbers drop constantly to stay on your program, it's time to get off the scale for a while. I am all for diligence and staying real in terms of what's happening to your weight, not kidding yourself as you say. And again, weighing yourself daily for a while and noticing how the weight fluctuations tie to circumstances is incredibly valuable in trying to keep a cool head.

                        Face it, a key factor in sticking to a weight loss program is by staying optimistic, and that takes a lot of effort. Anything that makes a person lose hope or confidence is something to avoid. So many people are tied to that dang scale without realizing that the fluctuations happen. And, even when they do (like me), they still let a flat or up reading bring them down. I knew from past weight loss attempts that I NEVER lost as much as I wanted or thought I should every week, and that the first time my period hit I would get depressed because of the excess water weight. Logically I knew the score, but my greedy pessimistic little heart didn't care. So, this time, the best strategy I came up with was to essentially ignore the scale for 6 months. I belong to Jenny Craig so they do weigh you every week, but I got on the scale backwards and my consultant was forbidden to tell me anything. After about 6 weeks I asked how much I had lost so far, and I got an update about every 6 weeks. It wasn't until about 6 months into the program that I felt brave enough -- and SECURE enough in my emotional state -- to find out how much I had weighed when I started, and to start viewing the weekly weigh-in. After a while I did an experiment similar to yours, where I started weighing every day and tracked the fluctuations, just to see. I did that for several months. Now, I still weigh in every week at JC, and I hop on the scale a few times in the week just out of curiosity. But, I can look at those numbers much more objectively and I know EXACTLY what they are worth.

                        There is an article link that I refer people to frequently that discusses a lot of the issues involved with the scale: http://www.primusweb.com/fitnesspart...ight/scale.htm.
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 01:06 PM   #9  
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                        Anne,
                        Thank you for the post. I agree with you that the once a week weigh-in is not enough if used as the only measure of weekly success. When I was in my losing phase, I weighed daily first thing in the morning. Yes, there were plenty of fluctuations, but there were enough data points taken at a consistent time of day to see the trends.

                        Unless I do something unusual like go out to dinner, eat something salty, or do a particularly grueling leg workout, I still weigh daily first thing in the morning. I know the days when the scale is going to be up, so there is no sense torturing myself by hopping on to find out that I'm retaining a pound or two of water. What I have more problems with psychologically these days, are the times that the scale is inexplicably down Since I'm not trying to lose any more weight and I know pretty much exactly what I'm eating, seeing a lower number makes me feel like I got a caloric freebie somehow. Not true! Those days are usually followed by a week of frustration trying to bring the scale back down.

                        I know some of you are advocates of throwing the scale out the window. I've only tried that a few times, usually with bad results. Luckily I've never been able to stay off it long enough to really get in trouble. When I don't weigh myself, I gain weight. I need that reminder every morning. Not knowing was one of my main denial tactics when I was heavy.

                        Mel
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 01:45 PM   #10  
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                        Meg and Mel,

                        Can we please save this thread? I think it's some of the most valuable information I've seen recently, and I'd like to keep track of it. In this new formats, how are we handling favorite threads? Meg, I remember you saying something about this, but I don't remember what
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 02:07 PM   #11  
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                        Thank you Anne that is awesome information...

                        Mel I used to not weigh-in either and used to gain also !! Now I weigh-in twice/week on Monday (I hate that day!) and Friday (I like this day better) since doing this I have been loosing weight pretty steadilyk, altho slowwwwly ...
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                        Old 01-17-2005, 11:46 PM   #12  
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                        Meg, on the carbs comment... I recently came across something via the NIH site that said that for every ounce of sodium our body holds, it will store 95 ounces of water. The average obese person carries 2-3 ounces of sodium. People in overweight range have around 2 ounces. Normal range is < 1 ounce. Accounts for why people see a water weight drop when they change their eating habits in a positive direction.
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                        Old 01-18-2005, 04:32 AM   #13  
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                        hi Anne and Meg,

                        Thanks for the comments, and especially about the carbs comment of Meg. Since logging my food portions I have found oput that i actually eat much more bread and such than usually recommended, and much less fruit.
                        Yhis also might tie in with a thread over at maintainers, describing "insulin hangover", and what I recognise as my daily meet with the man with the hammer after lunch. i have even postponed my lunch so as to have less preoblems with this.
                        So combined with my big scale movements I'm definitely going to try to cut down on the bread and easy sugars, and put in motre protein and fruits for the lunch!

                        Have a good day,
                        rabbit
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                        Old 01-18-2005, 06:37 AM   #14  
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                        I've been pondering this subject since my first, rather terse, post yesterday. (Yesterday was a rather terse day.) Several thoughts have bubbled up.

                        1. Anne has given such a good description of water working in her body as she goes about her daily business. Water is a marvellous element. It's so important for life. For plants, for animals, for the planet. It's central, it's essential. And focusing on the vagaries of scale weight demonises water. That's all the wrong way round. We should give it the very highest value.

                        2. I like Anne's emphasis on the value of data, and looking for patterns in them. That's what I've learnt to do in the rest of my life and it serves me well. I spend a lot of time collecting information, looking for patterns and deciding how to act or not. It's a good tool. Why should losing weight and maintaining a fit and healthy body be any different? It isn't. So I'll be carrying on using this tool and improving it.

                        3. Patterns - they are often beautiful. They may not fit in with our view of what should be happening but they show that something is happening. There’s some connection here to Robin’s description of how the body goes up and down, up and down but I can’t quite put my finger on it at the moment.

                        4. 'Weigh yourself once a week only' doesn't chime with me at all. In fact, it's so discordant that it can make me mistrust any other ideas in the same piece of writing. (That's usually when I'm feeling particularly grumpy or argumentative!)

                        5. I want to know my own body. It's me. It's mine. It's unique. I want to keep it going, as well as possible. As we know, knowledge is power. I want the knowledge to make conscious choices about my health and fitness. Collecting information helps me do this.

                        Ramble, ramble – and off over the horizon.
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                        Old 01-19-2005, 08:23 AM   #15  
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                        Good job Anne, you truly helped alot of us with you data.
                        I need to set up a chart for my own fluctuations. I try and weigh in once a week.
                        This leads to A: Extremely good day, scale was cooperative.
                        B: Extremely bad day, scale was uncooperative.
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