I realize many of you are not on the board for the holiday. I just wanted to vent this now. We just received very bad news that my cousin's baby passed away during a home birth. My aunt, who was worried sick about a home birth, is understandably devastated. The whole situation is just sickening and so sad beyond words.
I talked to my dad this morning, and he had nothing to say about it. I told him I'm really worried about my aunt because she was against the home birth but didn't want to be a meddling MIL (her son is the father) so she did not express her concerns. I'm worried because my aunt is going out there (they don't live near her) alone and this is a situation where emotions can run very high. I told him, I'd go with her if I could but of course we have no one to watch the kids. (My dad doesn't watch the kids, he pretty uninvolved in that way). And he was like "well its over with". And I said to him, well this is very upsetting and can be angering too. It can be a very difficult death for someone to work through. And he goes, "well makes no sense to be mad. What's done is done and time to get over it"...I said to him, that first of all, anger is a very normal emotion during grief and if I ever said that to a patient, I'd lose my job.".... I've been a nurse for nearly a decade and I've done hospice nursing. It kills me that my dad is so heartless! He said he would call my aunt later. I hope he doesn't tell her what he told me. Though I will say when his mom died, he did tell one of my aunts she needed to get over it already when she grieved for what he determined to be too long. He makes himself the gold standard and everyone else is over reacting.
So after I told him that he just moved on to talk about his turkey he was having and that he was going to take a nap soon. I know my career has taught me how to be very patient with grief and how its so different for everyone, but I've never known anyone to be so cold about such a horrible death. So for anyone that has read previous posts about my dad, this is a pretty good idea of why I can't talk to him about difficult struggles. I mean, this awful news and he has the same attitude. That's its over so move on!
Anyway, I hope everyone has had a good day. I'm not looking to start a debate about home birth. This post is about my dad's reaction to a very difficult and emotional situation. To prevent this thread from a downward spiral, I'm going to report to the mods any posts that turn it into a debate about or unwanted information about home birth. Thanks.
I'm going to be honest and say I couldn't / didn't read past the beginning of your post. Its pretty obvious you have no kids. As someone who has been through 2 miscarriages I find your view repugnant and I really can't take anything else you might have to offer seriously. If you were trying to help, you didn't. You only took one horrible situation, the death of my cousin's baby and added to it my now feeling disgust for the thought that there are people in the world that find grieving a miscarriage rooted in selfishness. My god...
I edited it to say I will be blocking you. And my block list is very very short even in all my years on here. I don't think I'd even like to read any of your posts again. You should really think before saying anyone's grief for any reason is selfish. How awful.
Last edited by GlamourGirl827; 11-27-2014 at 05:59 PM.
I just wanted to put a note in here to apologize. I wasn't trying to attack you in your thread, and actually I felt like I was being vulnerable, putting some feelings out there that might not be accepted.
I can remove the post if you like. It was never intended the way you took it, and I take responsibility for the effect my words have on others. If I offend someone unintentionally like I have here, it means I'm not communicating well. That's my fault.
Let me know if there's something I can change or edit.
And again, I'm sorry.
...but surely as a nurse you also understand that your father's reaction to the situation is every bit as normal as your aunt's. You've been trained to deal with people's reactions to grief, but I'm guessing your fathet has not.
You empathise more with your aunt, but your father doesn't get it , and that doesn't make him heartless, it just makes him less emotionally sensitive and that's as much out of his control as your aunt's anger is out of hers.
It's hard to be empathetic to people we don't understand (und usually we don't understand because they don't think and feel as we do, or want thm to), but their feelings or lack of them should be just as much accepted and respected as the people whose thought and emotions we like.
Most people think their own level of emotionality is "just right." Anyone with more is overly sensitive, maybe even histrionic or neurotic and anyone with less is a stone-cold, heartless, b-turd.
The thing is, empathy and other emotions are largely outside of our control. Only a very small portion of emotional skills and emotional expression are learned. We can learn to lie (and pretend more or less emotion than we feel), but what we feel, and how deeply is largely a matter of biochemistry - a function of the limbic system (hormones, neurotransmitters, neurons, brain structures...).
Empathy, like most emotions (except for jealosy, pride, and rage), is generally felt more strongly by women. It's why so many women think most men are A-holes and so many men think most women are overly and disfunctionally emotional.
Your Dad isn't defective, he's about averagely emotionally gifted for a male. He's just a normal guy, with a normal, (possibly slightly underdeveloped) male limbic system.
Learning empathy when you don't really have the limbic system for emotionality, can be extremely difficult, even impossible (for example in people with Aspberger's syndrome or other autism spectrum disorders).
There's nothing wrong with your dad (except for not knowing when to keep his feelings or lack thereof to himself). He's just wired differently than you and your aunt, and he hasn't been trained to fake it.
I had a friend who miscarried, who said I was exceptionally helpful when I told her it was "ok not to feel ok," but my reaction was 90% my degree talking and less than 10% true empathy. I couldn't even imagine how she felt, and my guesswork couldn't bridge that gap. If I had not had 6 years worth of education, and 15 years in the mental health field, and had not learned feminine tact, I'm sure I could have come across as a heartless monster. I was taught what to say and what not to say, but it's not always because I have true empathy.
Your dad may lack empathy, but he probably has other gifts.
I could beat anyone in my path at the moment, it's Thanksgiving in the USA. And I have NOTHING to be thankful on this Thursday night. Bring it. Sorry but I'm so sad I am spitting fire.
Last edited by Ruthxxx; 11-28-2014 at 05:14 AM.
Reason: Removed troubling quote.
I am so very sorry for your family's loss. *gentle hug* When I was in my teens my Mom had a miscarriage and we lost little Jeromè. My entire family was devastated including my Dad. We still talk about him as if he's been here with us all these years.
A tiny precious life was lost. I can't imagine not acknowledging that and feeling something for that loss.
...but surely as a nurse you also understand that your father's reaction to the situation is every bit as normal as your aunt's. You've been trained to deal with people's reactions to grief, but I'm guessing your fathet has not.
You empathise more with your aunt, but your father does not, and that doesn't make hm heartless, it just makes him less emotionally sensitive/motivated, and that's as much out of his control as your aunt's anger is out of hers.
Most people think their own level of emotionality is "just right." Anyone with more is overly sensitive, maybe even histrionic or neurotic and anyone with less is a stone-cold, heartless, b-turd.
The thing is, empathy and other emotions are largely outside of our control. Only a very small portion of emotional skills and emotional expression are learned. We can learn to lie (and pretend more or less emotion than we feel), but what we feel, and how deeply is largely a matter of biochemistry - a function of the limbic system (hormones, neurotransmitters, neurons, brain structures...).
Empathy, like most emotions (except for jealosy, pride, and rage), is generally felt more strongly by women. It's why so many women think most men are A-holes and so many men think most women are overly and disfunctionally emotional.
Your Dad isn't defective, he's about averagely emotionally gifted for a male. He's just a normal guy, with a normal, (possibly slightly underdeveloped) male limbic system.
Learning empathy when you don't really have the limbic system for emotionality, can be extremely difficult, even impossible (for example in people with Aspberger's syndrome or other autism spectrum disorders).
There's nothing wrong with your dad (except for not knowing when to keep his feelings or lack thereof to himself). He's just wired differently than you.
He could fake emotion, but is that really what you want from him?
My own limbic system is a bit off for a woman. I am highly empathetic in some regards, but not in the same degree as most women, so I can miss social cues and come off as insensitive or even rude when I'm just sharing my experiences and imptessions, not trying to be a rude dick..
I don't have much maternal instinct, which is why hubby and I do not have kids. I think parenting should be done well, or not at all. I doubt I'd do it well, so I'd rather not do it all.
Friends say I'm great with kids (and I should be with my degree), but I have more knowledge than interest, and more interest than desire. I do like kids, but only when I can give them back to their parents when I'v lost patience and empathy.
I had a friend who miscarried, who said I was exceptionally helpful when I told her it was "ok not to feel ok," but my reaction was 90% my degree talking and less than 10% true empathy. I couldn't even imagine how she felt, and my guesswork couldn't bridge that gap. If I had not had 6 years worth of education, and 15 years in the mental health field, and had not learned feminine tact, I'm sure I could have come across *** a heartless beotch.
I have more mental/logical empathy tban emotional empathy. I understand the fact, but not always the experience of some states of emotion. ( I was often described, as a child as "book smart with no common sense). I often miss cues that I might be boring or offending others. When it's pointed out, I can usually see where I went off-normal, but I have to really be paying very close attention to avoid being seen as insensitive.
Now my hubby doesn't understand why I even care how I'm perceived by others. He's quite like your father, and like his own father. His mother actually tried to talk me out of marrying her son, because he was a self-centered A-hole like his father, her b-turd ex-husband.
What hubby lacks in empathy, he makes up for in loyalty and generosity. He will give you the shirt off his back, if you ask, but he might not notice or care why you had no shirt in the first place. He may understand or even ask why you need it, but he'll give it, no strings attached.
Your dad may lack empathy, but he probably has other gifts.
Please don't with Asperger's. My son is classified high functioning autistic, aspergers but they are backing away from that since it was pulled from the DSM. My son has difficultly empathizing, but he is not a heartless person. Even he, a child, can understand some level of grief surrounding death and offer some type of comfort.
I'm a pretty rational person, and I often prefer to take the logical route, solving problems and offering sound advice. But some things are just beyond being rationalized.
I get you were trying to explain all this, and in nearly all other topics its really helpful. But in a case like this, life has taught me less is more. Some times a simple 'I'm sorry' is the best thing for someone to learn to say if they are otherwise unable to express empathy.
I'm so sorry but I read the first part of your response and quoted to say "wow, what an a$$ hole". Then I saw your username and said to myself "wow, I liked her but what an a$$ hole".
If you never lost a baby, please back off right here and now. And if you haven't, I pray God blesses you with the same.
I could beat anyone in my path at the moment, it's Thanksgiving in the USA. And I have NOTHING to be thankful on this Thursday night. Bring it. Sorry but I'm so sad I am spitting fire.
Would I be over stepping to say I'm sorry. I don't know you've had a loss, but that's what I gathered from you reply. I don't know what kind of struggle you are going through right now, so I can only offer hugs for whatever it is you are facing. I'm sorry that my post even prompted some to reply with such a hurtful and vile reply. I'm sorry you had to read that today and I hope it didn't bring you too much hurt or anger. It was a very upsetting thing to read, I know.
I am so very sorry for your family's loss. *gentle hug* When I was in my teens my Mom had a miscarriage and we lost little Jeromè. My entire family was devastated including my Dad. We still talk about him as if he's been here with us all these years.
A tiny precious life was lost. I can't imagine not acknowledging that and feeling something for that loss.
Thank you for your reply. The baby lost is a child, sibling and family member that was meant to be part of your family, holidays, birthdays, vacations, movie nights, long phone conversations and family photos. A miscarriage leaves a void where someone should have been for the rest of a family's life. Someone that had something to add to the world, a life of their own to lead...
I am so worried for my aunt, she has been through a lot in her life. She really carries on in such a positive way despite all she's faced. I know she was so worried about this home birth, and having this happen, I hate to see her worse fear become reality. I am worried about my cousin, this was their first baby. I just hope they all reach out to their support systems if / when they need it.
I agree, I can't imagine not feeling pain over such a loss. Or feeling pain for those you love that are in pain.
Perpetuating the idea of getting over it only leads people to believe that their grief is not "normal" and can make it worse, because it can create feelings of guilt or shame regarding the grief and hesitance to reach out for help/ talk to family because they don't want to admit they are still struggling. I've met a lot of stoic people, actually if you knew my IRL, I am one. But to me there are few very sensitive subjects that you have to be a real piece of work not to get are delicate areas. Passing of a baby/ child is one of them.
Last edited by GlamourGirl827; 11-27-2014 at 09:07 PM.
Some people are just "heartless" I for one, have seen someone be so cold over death. My husband's best friend buried his son and never talk about him. The baby lived for 2 days, died from SIDS in the hospital, so he got transferred to the local children hospital where he was kept alive for 4 days only to have to be taken off support because there was no brain function.
His father doesn't talk about him except for very occasionally, took down all pictures of him and the baby doesn't even have a headstone.
I say this because I took offense that you would say that someone like this would have to be a "piece of work". This individual is hardworking, smart, caring and very affectionate to his niece and nephews.
Just because not everyone grieves like you, or the way you approve, doesn't mean their coping mechanisms aren't valid.
Eta: I am sorry for your family's loss. The loss of a child is not something that anyone should have to bear and I hope you aunt is able to find the support she needs during her time of grief.
Last edited by izzyboomama; 11-28-2014 at 10:53 PM.
A: I am so very, very sorry for your family's loss. Miscarriage runs in mine, and my mother miscarried when I was 8 and it affected our family for YEARS afterwards in many ways. You have my greatest sympathy and thoughts for you and your family.
B: Kaplods is 100% right in their analysis, IMHO. I would say to step back and not take offense at the moment... you need some time to process your own grief and breathe a bit. Everyone reacts to grief in their own way, and you don't know someone's internal state unless they tell you. The stoic "get over it" mentality is a male coping defense that is hard for many to get past, neurotypical or otherwise.
C: I have to say it... have to... please skip if offended by opinions on home birth. Home birth, in most cases, is irresponsibly dangerous. I won't say that it's causative in this instance, as I don't know the facts. I will say that I would never do one, would never advocate that anyone do one, and am suspicious of anyone who says that's their plan especially if there's any health concerns WHATSOEVER for the mother or baby.
My dad's reaction to an unexpected death...
