I don't know why, but this thread reminds me of the time someone tried to set my brother's jacket on fire. Then the guy called my bro a "stupid Jew."

My bro laughs about it now.

Actually, Christians took a Pagan celebration day and CALLED it Christmas. So, seeing as Christians called it whatever THEY wanted, I am totally free to call it whatever I want.

Regardless, Merry Christmas to everyone here on 3FC!

~CGH~

They did the same with Easter. And All Saint's Day. ;)

Pretty much any Christian holiday is one that was superimposed over a "pagan" (i.e. non-Christian) holiday, to aid in converting the locals.

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Totally unrelated to the discussion, but could someone please tell me why people use "XMas", or "Xtians", why is "Christ" substituted with an X?

I'm not trying to rile anyone up, I'm just curious. Even CHristina Aguilera's alter ego is "Xtina"...

Here you go:

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/xmasabbr.asp

I personally use it a lot becuase it's faster to type Xmas than Christmas. :)


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Just a thought about this sentiment:

What about all the immigrants in the US who celebrate Independence Day. Are they allowed to say they celebrate the 4th if they're not American citizens? I mean, it's ok to get together with your friends or family, but don't you dare say you're celebrating Independence if you're not "one of us" (i.e. an American).

Seriously. That's just silly. :)

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Maybe I'm just over tolerant, but as long as people aren't hurting others it doesn't matter what you believe!!! When you actually take someone elses, space and botch it up then it is all our problem...Live and let live...be happy, and respect each other and the world would be a much better and safer place to be.

If someone is an immigrant who is working toward being an American Citizen or who is an American Citizen, I think it's awesome that they celebrate Independence Day. It might mean more ( or at least different ) to someone who has seen the other side, and wasn't born here.

But I think that Illegal immigrants shouldn't celebrate Independence day if they have no plan of becoming citizens or going through the process to be legally here.I don't think they should have the same rights as Americans. The word here is Illegal.

i use the term "Xmas" because the day is not about Christ to me. it is about family, food, friends, presents, being together, and having a good time. there's a really good Futurama episode about Xmas, and how Santa Claus is a giant murdering robot. i highly recommend it.

also, i celebrated the day yesterday with my boyfriend's family... we said "Merry Christmas" to each other and ate Christmas dinner and had a Christmas tree... but i'm agnostic (as is my boyfriend), and his family is best described as "Christian-flavored." should we have called it a "winter get-together"?

i'm confused about this 4th of July thing... are we going to start going around asking people at parades if they intend on becoming citizens? who would we even ask? would we start with non-white people, even though there are PLENTY of illegal immigrants who are white? "no sir, you can only watch the parade and eat barbecue if you plan on taking the citizenship test."

holidays don't mean very much anymore because of consumerism and the times we live in. the malls opened today at 6am so people could take advantage of sales and make up for the shopping they missed yesterday.

Have you ever gone to your local Mexican restaurant and had a margarita on Cinco de Mayo?

So wait ... am I getting this right then .. having a party, watching fireworks, grilling dogs and burgers, and enjoying the company of your friends and family is a "right" that you have to be an American to have?

I'm not sure I like the spin this thread is taking.

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My personal belief is that, because no one can "own" a day or the actions of others, all we can do is control how *we* celebrate a particular holiday. I believe it crosses a line when we start telling others how *they* can celebrate something. As long as it doesn't cause harm (and I'm not sure how the goodwill, celebration, etc. of a holiday celebration could cause harm), how does one justify saying what another person can do on a particular day?

Your decision on how to celebrate might include not attending a holiday celebration at the home of a non-Christian, and that's reasonable if you feel like the celebration isn't in the spirit of your holiday. But it crosses a line to tell someone that not only will you not come to the party, but they can't throw it at all because it isn't the kind of party you'd like to go to.

Just a point of fact here regarding immigration. Besides being a civil rights and anti-discrimination lawyer, I also did a lot of pro bono work as an immigration attorney. Anyone who uses the phrase "illegal alien" is not, in fact, correct in their terminology. To be in this country without proper documentation is not illegal. At least not in the sense that such immigrants are considered to be partaking in a criminalized behavior -- unless of course they have a "criminal history." That kicks up the stakes a bit and puts a different spin on the situation. In most cases, however, immigration is an administrative process...like licensing your vehicle or getting a permit to remodel your house...only on the federal level. Under federal law, deportation is not considered a "punishment". It is, instead, an administrative procedure. So most of the people who came here outside of the proper channels are "undocumented immigrants" not "illegal immigrants" or "illegal aliens".

In fact, if it was deemed a criminal behavior, in some ways that would be better for the alien. It would mean that they were entitled to the consitutional protections that those in our criminal court systems are entitled to -- such as an actual trial or basic criminal due process. In fact, they aren't entitled to those things. Often, they are not even entitled to an administrative hearing. Which is why I have had clients flown out of the country at 1:00 am and denied their requests to contact me or their families. Which is why people brought here as infants by their parents can be taken away from everything they have ever known and dumped across the border in a country where they know no one and they do not even speak the language. They have no "right to counsel" and have to somehow try to pay for it out of pocket or try to get help from a private, very over-worked legal aide organization. It is why things like "hearsay" can be, and often are, used by immigration courts to make their determinations.

This is an interesting thread.

I can't say as I have had a margarita in a Mexican restaurant on the 5th of May but I did have a Budweiser in one yesterday on Christmas. Our favorite place just happened to be open...as the owner had mentioned to us the week before.

I work with many men that do not have proper identification. Most of them are good hard working men that want nothing more than to have a decent life. Many of them have been to my home.

I will also tell you very-very few of them have even a clue what the 4th of July means to me. If you ask them about it the answer usually comes back "fireworks"

I don't think it is a secret the point Optical Goddess was trying to make. It wasn't a post about humanity.

Schumeany most of these men have openly admitted their paperwork is not legal. I have even had 2 guys give me 2 different SS# to hand into my office. As you know, as these men get "discovered" they are let go. Does this act make them illegal?

If you don't celebrate the birth of Christ, as a Christian, then you do not celebrate Christmas. You can exchange gifts, have parties, go to a movie....anything you want to. All fine things. It just isn't Christmas.

It used to bother me when people used an X instead of Christ in Christmas. It doesn't anymore. I understand that not all will be believers in Him. I also want to assure Painted Lady that I mean no disrespect to you for the X, I admire you for standing up for your beliefs and I always enjoy your thoughts. I also agree that many holidays have lost meaning because of commercialism and X's ;)

It absolutely is Christmas. Complete with a Christmas tree, Christmas presents, and Christmas dinner. Sorry if you don't like it or if anyone else doesn't like it, but celebrating a secular Christmas is part of my CULTURAL history. I'm not going to change my culture to accommodate anyone's religious beliefs.

And I wish more Christians would learn their OWN history before they get all offended about things. The use of X as a substitute for "Christ" in Christmas, Christian, etc., was actually COINED BY EARLY GREEK CHRISTIANS. The "x" shape character is the "chi" in written Greek, which is the first letter of the Greek word for Christ. In a lot of early Greek texts the letter is used as an abbreviation for "Christos" or "Christ". Many early Christians used the abbreviation XP to describe THEMSELVES.

And in fact the labarum, the x/p superimposed on each other, is a common symbol for Christ in a whole bunch of Orthodox churches.

It isn't a way to take "Christ out of Christmas" and any non-Christian who uses it as such is actually just reinforcing the origins of the Greek form of "Christ".

Edited: I had to go find the Greek letters online ... but the Greek word for Christ is written like this: Χριστός
And the labarum, for those who aren't familiar with the word but probably will recognize the symbol, is here:
http://www.tattoosymbol.com/religious/labarum.jpg


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It's obvious my POV is very unpopular, and I don't think I can successfully defend my thoughts or articulate them in a way that everyone would understand.

I have expressed my beliefs, I stand by them. This is what I think. I never said I would go out and interrogate people about thier citizenship status or thier spiritual beliefs. It's just what I think. I never said I'd tell people they couldn't celebrate the holidays. I never anything about race. At all.

While I am supposed to be tolerant of all that is around me, no one is tolerant of my POV. It's fine as long as I feel the same as everyone else.

For that, I'm taking out the odd element, and bowing out of this discussion, taking away the 'bad direction' this discussion is taking.

hear hear, PhotoChick!

Yes, EZ. If they are committing fraud, that is a criminal behavior. But that just makes them undocumented aliens who broke a US criminal law -- and they could be tried for the fraud. Of course, it has also been written into the immigration code that past criminal behavior, such as SS fraud, can be used as a basis for not granting a change in their immigration status. None of this, however, provides a basis for linking "illegal" to the front of "immigrant". Undocumented immigrants can do illegal things just like you or I could do illegal things -- such as commit fraud, but their basic status, living here in this country without the proper documentation, is not "illegal". That was my original point.

Thanks SCHUMEANY...that is what I wanted to know, if they were illegal because of fraud. Now another question if they came across the border, as in over a fence and not through a check-point...is this a crime?

Thanks for the input Photochick

"Christmas" is a word. You cannot own a word. You can own your own feelings surrounding words, but not someone else's. That is the basis of freedom.

EZ, the answer to your question regarding crossing the border without entering through a checkpoint may have changed in the last few years since 9/11. It did not used to be classified as criminal behavior, but I am not sure about its status now -- I have not practiced immigration law in a while, and while I try to keep up to some extent because it interests me, I do not know everything. *sigh* If it is considered criminal now, the undocumented alien would have committed a violation of a US criminal statute...but it would be equally illegal for a US citizen to cross the border without stopping at the checkpoints. Which gets us back to my original point. Just being here without documentation does not make you an "illegal alien". How you got here might weigh against you in the administrative procedure because of how it effects your "criminal history", but not the basic fact that you are here.

Thanks Schumeany....I don't think it really matters much anymore how one got here.

I am working with a gentleman now that is the only one in his family of 5 that is not a legal resident of California. He has 2 older sisters and one brother, one sister younger....all born here. He was not.

His mother was murdered by his father when he was a teen-ager....got into trouble with drugs....served time. A great guy today, 17 years later. But always on the run....sad.

EZ, I could tell you twenty stories as bad as his or worse. Being the only one in your family without proper status, for one reason or another, is pretty common. It is also pretty common to find out as an adult that you don't have proper status...because your parents lied to you or they simply did not understand all the steps of a very complicated process themselves. In some cases, those are the saddest situations. Imagine believing your whole life you were a US Citizen, and then having the Immigration Service show up on your doorstep one day and place you into custody and then fly you to some country that you have never been to in your life...and leave you there with no money and no connections. It would be terrifying.

That's what makes discussing the "situation" so hard SCHU....trying to separate humanity from laws and the expense of the "situation".

Thank you for your help.

And yes there are many more stories, I have several guys I work with with situations that scare them each and every day. Great guys but caught up in the "buy...buy...buy" of the world today, the collapse of their dreams of homes....high debt... and nowhere to go....papers not legal...companies refusing to hire them anymore because of the crime of hiring "illegal" workers....sad. Going "back" is NOT an option for many of them....staying here is becoming more difficult.

I guess what I don't understand is why do you care what this person thinks? Some cyber message board groupie shouldn't have that much control over you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main principals of atheism is that one has no belief in a "god" or power greater than themselves. I would venture to say that you are giving into a higher power if you allow comments about Christmas or anything else for that matter to offend you.

Being offended by ignorance and intolerance means you're "giving in to a higher power"? Could you explain that further?

I am quite annoyed at the repeated expressions of "why do you care" that keeps being thrown out there.

Let me ask this: If someone came here and said "on another board someone told me I didn't have a right to eat holiday food because I'm fat" everyone on this board would be up in arms ... giving support and comfort and telling the OP that she should be strong and ignore those who are clueless and ignorant. But because someone is annoyed or upset because she was slammed for her atheism, then she is instead given various versions of "why do you care" and "it's your problem" and "it's just a message board".

So is support here only for those who believe in some god or gods? Or is it for everyone, regardless of their religious choices?

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PhotoChick.... I had the same ideas in my head, and wanted to post them, but I didn't know how to word it. You can express yourself so well!

So yeh, what she said.

PhotoChick - If I had a dollar for every time I had to explain that the use of X for Christ is as old as Christianity itself, I'd be rich!! :lol: Another one I have to explain a lot is that the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus' conception. I'm not very familiar with most American Protestant denominations, but it seems they aren't teaching the history of Christianity as much as they ought to...

Optical Goddess - I don't understand why you would want to deny any celebration to anyone? That seems just plain mean spirited. I understand you take pride in certain things you feel are important to you, but my natural thought would be to share them. One time I visited the US on the 4th of July, and I was invited to participate in your holiday. I'm not an American, nor will I ever be, but I enjoyed the traditional barbeque and fireworks - I was made to feel very welcome by the Americans I was with and I left with a great opinion of them. No one said "Go away, this is my holiday and not yours". You are always welcome to your opinion (and I would never say everyone should have the same opinion - that gets boring fast...), but to use it to try to deny something to someone else that wants to participate is unfair.

If we look at our lives carefully, we'll see a huge portion of what we do is a taken from somewhere else. I recently started belly dancing, but I'm not from the Middle East. Anyone do yoga? That's got some serious roots in Indian practices. What about katate? Judo? Anyone like French cinema? Italian opera? Sushi? Tacos? We all share and participate in things that come from somewhere else. It's one of the great things in life - sharing and exchanging ideas and practices.

And I would loooove to be able to go to a local Mexican restaurant for a margarita on Cinco de Mayo, but we don't have very many Mexican Restaurants here in Montreal, and the few that do exist can't make a decent margarita to save their lives.

BP

Hardly at all. It's kind of sad really. I grew up Catholic and then in high school I began going to an independent Baptist church (mom was Catholic, dad was Southern Baptist - an odd combination). In college I found a better balance in the Episcopal church and, as of right now I'm still a registered, baptized member of the Anglican Communion, although I don't attend church. I do find the ritual to be beautiful and oddly comforting at times, but that's more about the sense of tradition and childhood comfort, I think.

I don't believe any more (and i don't really care to get in depth into my belief system on a public board for reasons you probably can relate to! :) ), but I do think my personal experience both in and out of the various denominations gives me a pretty interesting perspective.

Combine that with my degree in History and my passion for social and cultural history ... religion in all it's forms fascinates me.

All of that to say, that no, most American denominations have no clue about the history of their various belief systems. Most of them have no idea about the various shades of meaning in the original texts of the Bible and have no idea HOW the translations of the texts they use to substantiate their faith came about. Christianity is one of the only religions I know of where the faithful aren't expected to read their religious texts in the original forms and to understand the history of their faith.

Oh and the thing about the Immaculate Conception makes me crazy. ;)


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Oh and about denying the celebration ... it seems to me that attitude is the very opposite of what a real Christian attitude would be. I would think that encouraging people to celebrate the day and using it as a jumping off point to share your faith with them would be much more effective than pointing fingers and crying "you can't play in this sandbox because you don't believe what I do".

I dunno. Color me crazy, but I don't believe the Jesus of the Bible would tell anyone that they couldn't celebrate "his" day because they didn't believe in him.

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Because it is wrong to tell me that I cannot have friends over for dinner at this time of year. If this was one singel person that had said this, I might not be as bothered by it, but it is an attitude I have encountered *many* times.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. I am supposed to stifle my emotions and feelings because I am an atheist? Am I not allowed to be happy either?

An individual's comments *will* have the power to irritate or upset me if they attempt to infringe or deny me something I believe is important. That's life - we all get upset at comments sometimes. I have feelings and emotions, and denying them is unhealthy. When someone tells me I'm fat, I get upset because my feelings are hurt. I might try to deny it or shrug it off, but I *will* be bothered to some degree by it. When someone tells me *I* can't have a dinner party because *they* are having a religious celebration, I am upset by that.

I'm human, and I feel, just like everyone else.


BP

PhotoChick - Catholic, Anglican and Scottish Presbyterian were the big ones where I grew up, and they are all BIG on history. Like all denominations, they all have their opinion on why their version of Christianity and the bible are the 'true' version, but those big ones all insist on drumming their histories and theologies into their parishioner's heads! :lol:

I'm also a history fan, and a history of religion fan (re-reading Josephus' 'Antiquities of the Jews' right now actually (translated of course - I can't read Ancient Greek :D), so I often find myself having to explain what the origin or meaning of some practice is. :dizzy: I've not ever formally studdied these things - I just find them fascinating.

BP

Shumeany said:
Bopeep, what Shumeany said here is the key to this whole thing. If you let what people say to you have power over you, then they win. You have absolute control of how you let others affect you. If you don't believe what they say, then those words should hold no power over your feelings. (unless you let them).

I too am an atheist and I love parts of Christmas (good will and peace on earth, sharing good times and food with family and friends, and the bright lights and glitter), and hate parts of it (the commercialism). It will always be Christmas to me.

There is nothing religious about a Christmas tree, exchanging gifts, cooking a meal, or having friends over. So to do any of those things does not mean you are celebrating Christ's birth...just that you are celebrating a secular holiday that is most likely a family tradition. And a lovely one at that.


Optical Goddess said:
I have no problem with people saying Merry Christmas. And I think it's silly to say happy holiday to make sure you don't offend someone, so feel free to express it any way you like. :D

I don't feel slighted at all. I love the holiday and the feelings of warmth and cheer. The fact that it's a secular holiday to me and a religious one to you is fine with me.

As a kid I used to write xmas, because it was easier and I was lazy, and I was a Christian at the time, so I would not have meant it to be an offense to Christ. It doesn't mean a thing to me except as an abbreviation for the day, just like I often write bday for birthday.

Schumeany said:
I knew there was a reason I liked you! :lol:

Exactly!

Optical Goddess, I'm not sure I'm understanding your comment. You are not being intolerant when you disagree with some of the people here, yet you think they are being intolerant when they don't agree with what you say? No need to bow out. Just understand that some of us are no more inclined to agree to your beliefs than you are to ours.

Bopeep, no one has the power to deny you the right to celebrate Christmas. Their words have no power over your actions. The only power anyone has over your feelings are you. I understand your idealism, but why not just stand up for your beliefs and state them proudly, and accept that others have the right to state their beliefs too, as Optical Goddess has done here. If you are not ashamed of your beliefs and feelings there is no reason to feel defensive (or angry).

Well- I celebrated Christmas yesterday with my husbands family- some Christians, some agnostics, a pagan, a Buddhist, and some athiests. We had a christmas tree, presents, and a nice dinner together. None of us non-Christians burst into flames, Jesus did not smite us, and we all had a great time enjoying the holiday and whatever it means to us as individuals.
Not one of them decided not to come over to my house because they knew I wasn't Christian.
A lot of interesting points brought up here- and some of them make me really question how people come to believe what they believe.

two side notes- July 4th has always just been fireworks and alcohol for me and most people I know. And I once did read an article that outlined why it was immoral for Christians to practice yoga. It was totally serious and written by a Christian who truly believed that spending that time was opening yourself up to the devil.

Happy Holidays- whatever you celebrate and however you decide to celebrate it.

Yup. I mentioned above that when I was in high school I started going to a fundamentalist Baptist church. I started taking a yoga class after school and I remember being called into the youth pastor's office and "counseled" on how I was opening myself up to demonic influences by doing so.

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Oh cool. I read Josephus in college. That and Eusebius' history of the church, which is really interesting when you read it at the same time as you're reading Augustine and the Venerable Bede for another class. :)

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Demonic yoga? :dizzy:

Here you go:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-yoga.html
And the more .. um ... intense version:
http://www.macgregorministries.org/c...oups/yoga.html
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Thanks Photochick. I had never heard that before...demonic yoga. Who knew?

Hey Recidivist, I like you too. :) For the sake of true honesty, I should have said that I WAS a civil rights and anti-discrimination attorney. A couple of years ago, I gave up lawyering to become the executive director of a non-profit that helps children with disabilities expand their educational opportunities and helps guarantee their legal rights.

I read Eusebius four or five years ago - I think it took me a whole winter to get through (LCL version - tried to learn some of the Greek, but without a teacher... Yikes!)! I have never actually read Bede - every time I remember to look for a copy of the Ecclesiastical History, I can't find one! :lol:

I love my copy of Josephus - it's a 150 year old William Whiston translation and is really hard to get through with the 300 year old usage! I keep thinking I should get the newer translation, but then it wouldn't be my beautiful old book... :o My brother gave it to me for my birthday several years ago, so I have an attachment to it anyway, and I couldn't really replace it.

All this reminds me - it's time for a pilgramage to the local used bookstore. They specialize in buying and selling the university students literature and history books, and it should be packed full now since the fall term is over. Maybe I will finally both remember to look for Bede and find it! :lol:

BP