[thinthinker]

WELCOME !!!

We are a group of individuals who weigh or have weighed 300+, or near there. This group was formed to provide a place for others like us to find support and hope. We are aware of the distinct problems that come with weighing over 300 lbs.

We want to invite everyone to join us in our journey.
We share laughter and tears.
We share what works for us and what doesn't.
We often use a "Topic of the Day" for discussion.

Motivational Monday
Tuesday Tips
Wednesday Wish List .. and What you are doing to obtain it.
Thankful Thursday
FUN Friday ... don't wait until you lose your weight.
Sit-up Saturdays - any physical activity
Share your Success Sunday

These are not required topics ...just ideas to share. We often find them very helpful. We also share heartaches and fears ... joys and celebrations.

We have several extra threads going on simutaneously such as Monthly Challenges, Weekly Weigh-ins, Recipes, Bios, and more. Please feel free to check them all out.

We have found this thread to be more than just a support group...
we have found it to become a home. We invite you to join us.

WELCOME!

I know you'll all agree that we are really thankful for the free services here at 3FC. The sisters offer all of this support and information with no charges to us. There are a couple of ways though that we can help out.

If you are thinking about buying anything at Amazon, why not help out 3FC at the same time? You can do this by clicking on the button for Amazon on any page in the forum, or by clicking on the button on the main 3FC page at www.3fatchicks.com . A portion of your purchase price will be given to 3FC by Amazon. It doesn't increase your price at all, but it does help out 3FC. You can use any of the Amazon.com links that you see on the site in order to help contribute to the site.

Also, BTW, in case you didn't know it, you can view the message boards "ad free" for a minimal charge. I think it's like $15 for 6 months. A very small investment to be rid of the annoying ads and make your pages load quicker.

There have been some concerns expressed by the powers that be about copyright infringement. So please, if you are directly quoting someone else or printing an article in whole or in part, please give credit where credit is due!!!!

[kayleystar]

Well, I have missed an entire thread of posts! It's been a busy few days, and MAYBE I'll be able to catch up! But if not, congrats to all the losers, and EVERYONE for trying!
Right now, I have about an hour before my criminal justice class begins, and I wasn't sure about the weather up here, so I left early. I guess better safe than sorry, right? Last night, a friend, Andrew, and I went to see "Casanova". Movie was pretty good, but the theater had NO HEAT. We were shaking through the whole movie. They refused to give us a refund, so we stuck it out. They also didn't turn off the lights when the movie started! Talk about RUDE. We were the only ones in the theater for that movie...and I can see why, considering the services!! I'm going to go and check some e-mail, and work on a paper for my english comp. class.
Someone, I can't remember who, asked me what I'm studying. I'm taking some pre-law classes, but I'm actually going to become a paralegal. I don't wanna go to LAW school! lol....nor take the bar. And Ammi, it wasn't my criminal justice class that was boring...it was some BS class for Resumes and stuff that's required...*sigh*
Hope you chicks all have a great night!

[AmmiUK]

Hi All,

Well what a day today has been, diet wise I have done ok, but I was a bit naughty. Daren bought some gorgeous shortbread with raisin cookies, and although there was no info on the pack to work out the points I reckon they must have been at least 4 points each. I was going to walk to a parent teacher evening tonight to work them off, but Daren wanted to get a taxi. It's really cold out and he didn't fancy getting a chill on his chest which is fair enough. So I ended up missing lunch. After the meeting we came home and I had a lovely big bowl of home made stew. So I am still in my points, AND I did exercise this morning. I will have to go over to the exercise thread and put my minutes on there. Anyway I was totally shocked at how much work my step daughter will have top put in to take GCSE PE next year. They expect her to do the sports in class time, plus 5 lunch times and 3 afternoons after school. AND they want her to join a swimming club. All because she has to excel at 4 sports to pass the GCSE. She isn't a sporty girl, the only reason she wants to take the GCSE is because it will look good on her CV to get into the Navy. So here I need to talk to Heather...

Heather - would my step daughter have a chance to get into the Navy from just being physically fit rather than excelling at a load of sports. I mean she isn't going to bother with playing sports in the Navy, she wants to be a Chef or a Steward. Any advice you could give me would be much appreciated.

Tasha - Have you ever been tested for thyroid problems? It just seems amazing that you have to eat 900 calories to enable you to lose weight. That's hardly anything at all. Could you possibly eat more food but exercise more too?

So were you a real rebellious teenager then I know a lot of people say this, but honestly I wasn't rebellious. My mum had it so easy with me. A while back she took on my brother's 13 year old daughter, and she had such a shock because this girl was totally rebellious, even sneaking out the window at night to go hang out with boys etc. Mum thought she would be like me, but she was as perhaps I should have been lol. So yep, I was a good kid. I didn't go boozing, or hang out on the streets, in fact when I did go out it was to church. I think this is one of the reasons that I find it really hard to deal with my teenagers, it's a real eye opener for me too. Oh well, hopefully their hormones will settle soon.

Jill - I am sorry you are feeling hungry all the time. Stress is a pain isn't it when it comes to wanting to eat. All I can say is that if you do eat what you shouldn't then maybe you could try to counteract it by doing a little more exercise.

When you see your gyn doctor why don't you ask about the contraceptive rod that goes in your arm just under the skin. I have one called Implanon, and since I had it I haven't had one period, which is bliss for me. It's also great not to have to worry about remembering to take the pill or it's effectiveness if I have a bad tummy. I really would recommend it!

Sarah - oh boy do I know how you feel. I haven't exercised properly in 3 years thanks to surgeries and long recoveries, and I have gained more weight in that time. I am forcing myself, and I mean forcing myself to get out of bed and exercise 3 times a week. Every time I have a fight with myself, one side of me saying nah stay in bed you can exercise another day, and the other side of me saying I have to exercise if I am going to get the weight off. Thankfully the latter voice tends to win and I drag myself out of bed and go work out downstairs. As soon as I get started I really enjoy myself and feel so good afterwards knowing I am doing more to get fit etc. So I honestly don't have any tips to help motivate you to exercise, just try to listen to your good voice

Lilion - I know you got a bad start with your eating habits by living with a mum who cooked like yours did. BUT having said that, oh wow, I wish she was my mum!! Mine was one that worked two jobs so was hardly home, and if she did cook a meal it was always out of a can or the freezer. My weight gain at home was from junk food, certainly not from what I ate for my main meals etc.

You are so spot on with what you said to Heather about that horrible woman and what you would say to her if she made those oink noises in your direction. You don't expect behaviour like that from adults do you?

Checked out your slider, and you deserve a big woohoo

Vicki - I am like you I am ok with dealing with things when I am unwell, but seeing Daren poorly kills me. I am so glad that he is feeling much better now, but I will constantly worry that he will get those terrible pains back again.

That sounds pretty amazing that you could totally pig out on carbs and not gain weight. I wouldn't mind having a non gaining pig out Still I know you need to keep on track if you are going to make that 30 lbs loss by March. I am sure you will do it. I have every confidence in you

GarnetFairy - how are you doing with the Leslie Sansone tapes, do you find them fun, or a bit boring? Nothing worse than a boring exercise DVD.

Felicia - I am like you, my broadest parts are my hips and butt, so I reckon I wouldn't fit width wise on that Gazelle Rider either. Good job I don't want one right now That is great that your hubby didn't ache at all after such a long work out on it AND that he is enthusiastic about using it. It does look like fun, I think I would like to use it daily. Well that's if it's as fun as it looks.
I did check out the photos on your blog, I see your little workout buddy was right in there having a go. I love that you have the treadmill, the abs machine, and the Rider in shot, you have your own little gym!!

well done on doing a full mile and 30 mins on the treadmill what a fabulous feeling that must have been and every drop of sweat will have been worth it. Congrats on no cheating on the diet either, you are doing brilliantly and I am sure when you weigh in you will see great rewards for how well you have been doing.

Kayley - wow that really sucks that the cinema was unheated AND they didn't turn the lights off. Is there anybody you could write to, you know major management or something. You don't pay money, any amount to be so uncomfortable. Forgetting the shivering though, was the film good??

Okie dokie time to go, Biggest Loser is about to start. Take care all and bye for now,

Hugs,

Ammi

[Heather]

Wow, less than a day later and I still can't keep up. I think I keep missing posts as people talk about situations I don't remember reading about!

Wanted to shout out to Lilion a big congrats for the weight loss!

Ammi -- I know what you mean about the fight to exercise. I still have that fight with myself. Luckily, I'm less angry at me than I used to me. Fewer bruises that way.

And speaking of making exercise a habit...
I also want to put in a plug for everyone to start thinking about joining our exercise thread. You can certainly join this month, but it may be more natural for you to think about joining next month. Our goal is to do regular exercise -- whatever that is for you. We set goals for number of minutes we will each exercise per month. The accountability is great!

But what's even more fun is that we track the total GROUP exercise minutes. As of today, we have exercised WAAAAAAAYYY over 100 HOURS (6000 minutes) so far as a group (our goal for the month). I think we can set a higher goal next month, especially if others join us!

[christineu]

Just popping in to check in with everyone....

Garnetfairy- Glad you found your videos too...I have a lot of Richard Simmons ones but he annoys me too much now-lol. Maybe once I get back to exercising more, I might try some of them again.

Vicki- I find its easier to compose my post using Notepad (Windows computer). Then I don't have to worry about the internet blackhole post can land in. I usually try to run it through my word processor if I'm having a really bad spelling day (which is most days for me-lol).

Julee- Luckily I know were my 2# handweights are to get started. When I was buying my handweights, I almost didn't get the 2# ones- thinking I would never need them...but the Meijer outlet store had them for something like $1.50 for the set of 2, so I figured why not...good thing I did.

Lillion- that 'clean plate club' is one that is hard to give up membership. Even now that I can only eat really small amounts at a time due to my stomach problem, I still have a hard time throwing away food. I'm getting better at remembering my eyes are bigger then my tummy...you would think after 5 years I would know that...just like I would know I can't eat chocolate by itself either...

sarah- Make sure if the tiredness & listlessness does go away, that you get checked out with your doctor. Its a good idea whenever you make a major change in your diet or exercise routine to make sure everything is okay.

Jillybean- I hope work stress and all the other stuff slows down soon for you. Good luck with your appointment!

Tashabella- Have you talked to your doctor about only being able to lose when you so low cal? 900 calories per day is not a lot- I know when I was struggling to eat and maintain a minimum of of 800 calories per day that I had problems with losing hair and other problems. I know its really hard to meet basic nutritional needs at low of a daily caloric intake too.

Kayley- I can't believe the theater was that rude- sounds like they basically wanted you to leave or something. Its amazing what some business think they can get away with becasue they know we'll be back anyways.

Ammi- You and I sound like we are built a lot a like. All my weight tends to be in hips & thighs. We're about the same weight too- I went just over 340 shortly early last year due meds, but my 'stable' weight for the last couple years has been 320ish . Its funny how my best friend & I are about the same height & weight, but we carry our weight so differently.


I'm doing pretty good today- no naps (still can't believe I slept soooooo much yesterday) and I can bend down without the back of my head feeling like its going to explode where they went in to work on the nerves. I have to hold off another day or two before I can do much exercise wise- hopefully Friday I'll be able to try out the Leslie Sansone vidoes since I finally found them again.

Hopefully I can get rid of the rest of this extra water weight soon. I couldn't get my Singulair (allergy/asthma med) for a couple weeks with the new Medicare prescription plan. I didn't think anything of it, since I take 2 other allergy meds & my allergies aren't too bad this time of year. It wasn't until I realized I'd put back on 15+ pounds of water weight in the 2 weeks I was off it. I couldn't figure out why I had finally lost the excess fluid last fall- now I know its the Singulair...doensn't make any sense to me or my doctor, but I'm not going to argue with the fact I can finally see my ankle bones again Only 5 more pounds to go before I can get back to losing weight again...

[NotTheCheat]

Here's a fly by post to say hello to everyone. I have been so busy at work that I haven't had time for anything else. At least I am finally feeling all better. My audit will be over tomorrow and I have my first session with my personal trainer - I'm not going to miss that, even if they want to stay past 8pm again! I will go down for my session and come back up when I am done if there is still work to do.

[princesspuffypants]

i just had my weigh in. down another 1.8!!! yay!!

how are you doing losers?

[LovelyLatina]

Hello everyone! Looks like everybody had a good day! Mine was especially exciting today. I finally got my NutriSystem package--my sister and I both. It was mutually decided that we want to start it on the 1st of February so we have about a week yet. The good thing is that the food doesn't need to be refrigerated or stored in any special place, so we can just let it sit in its box until we are ready to start I am really really really looking forward to it! I can't wait!
In the meantime we are cutting down calories, not drinking soda, not eating (as much) junkfood as we USED to so that's a start. We haven't incorporated exercise yet, but we will once we start doing the NutriSystem. I plan on starting slow and then picking up the pace as I go. But I do plan on exercising everyday--well, it is actually required when you do the program--to do some exercise every day. I'm actually looking forward to that too! I will do what it takes to make this work this time around And of course, I'll have the support of all of you here and a buddy I've been e-mailing with back and forth for the past few days The future is looking bright...I better put on some shades! hehehe. Well, I hope you all have a great day tomorrow! I will read you then! Goodnight!

~Cindy

[garnetfairy]

Lilion - congratulations on the weight loss!
FS72 - your workout partner is adorable and I am glad your husband likes the machine so well!
Ammi - I really enjoyed the Leslie Sansone tape and plan to do it again tomorrow. I have not exercised the past two days due to my coughing and antibiotics and going to the doctor and all that jazz. Hopefully i will feel up to it tomorrow.

Felicia - way to go you exercise machine!

Oh, I stink at doing personals. I get everyone confused in my mind and forget what I wanted tos say. So well done everybody! Keep on exercising and working your programs you are all doing great. dont let the water weight get you down, you know it will go away when you start singulair again. Doesnt the new medicare D take some getting used to? Because of the government programs I was in, medicar D makes my pharmacy costs way more than they were. But I know it helps other so that is great.

I had my birthday dinner tonight (early) we went to our favorite mexican place and I had grilled snapper with a wine and lemon sauce with mushrooms, tomatoes, and red onion. rice, black beans, and guacamole. I did not eat even one chip or tortilla. I asked for a to go container and put half my meal in it so I would not eat it (except for the guacamole). I am so happy with myself for doing this. I did not even have a sopapilla which they make the best ones I have ever had there. I feel really good about today even though I did not exercise and took a nap due to antibiotics. I hope to do WATP tomorrow if i can stay off the PC long enough! ha ha

gotta go, ran out of crystal light gotta fill'er up.

WE ARE DOING GREAT!

[honiangel]

Hello all. I'm sorry I never have much interesting to say here usually just "hello,good or bad day, and bye". But, not much going on in my life. Work is pretty crazy all the time because I work at a daycare. So it's something new everyday but always pretty mcuh the same if you know what I mean. The girls (my nieces that I am raising) are doing okay, if not way spoiled . The oldest is three and she's the one that the mother still wants to see on occassion, so shes shifted from our home to her mothers at her mother's whim and without regularity. So she's in a strange phase right now. The youngest one (18 months) is recovering from a weeklong stay in the hospital but she almost done with her meds and is much better if not MORE spoiled for having her "Amer" (what she calls me) hold her in the hospital bed 24/7. I didn't think she could get anymore spoiled, but, alas it was possible. Between work and the girls I have a sum total of an hour to myself, if I can get them to sleep early enough. Soooooo...not a whole lot of time for anything exciting . I'm not complaining...it's what I've got to do for now...but it makes for awful boring conversation

I hope that everyone had a wonderful day today and has an even more wonderful one tomorrow.

Ammi--I weigh in on Sunday and I hope to see a difference. The goals I set were to lose 2 pounds a week, because I read that was a healthy expectation. I'm really trying to make sure I do everything I need to. I just feel so limited in so many ways that I'm not sure I'll ever get where I want to be...but I do intend to try.

Stray thought...has anyone tried the Richard Simmons Food Mover or Deal a Meal? I found them in a search I was doing on ebay, but I don't really know anything about them. Just thought someone might know something. I'm just sort of "winging" my weight loss effort, so I thought maybe the structure would help. I'd love to do WW or something like that but I can't so.... I'd appreciate any feedback about either of those programs.

[thinthinker]

This message is really for everyone, but Vicki's the one that mentioned it so that's why it's addressed to her.

Vicki: I know you mentioned the trouble with posting in the last thread and it's taken me awhile to get to it but......I was having trouble too and when I asked Suzanne apparently there has been alot of trouble since the first of the year with all of the newbies we've acquired. Suzanne has a new server on order but it will be a little bit before it can all get switched over. My suggestion is to write in "notepad" or a "Word" document and then copy/paste it here so that you don't lose everything.

[HeatherUSNWife]

Hello and good evening everyone

Ammi - You are talking about the Royal Navy right, not the US Navy? Just wanted to check As far as my knowledge goes about the US Navy, you don't have to accel in any sports, you just have to pass the PT test. In the Navy, they run, do situps and pushups every six months along with a weight/BMI check. My husband is not sports inclined...heck, he can't even swim My brother was trying to join up, but he was overweight, by like 100 pounds! and they gave him a workout sheet and a date on which to return and be in his "range"...he did it, but because he was borderline diabetic before he lost all his weight (which he has since reversed) they wouldn't let him join. It is never to early to talk to a recruiter. I would give that as my first and foremost advice. Go into a recruiting office and tell the man or woman that she is interested, what does she need to do, what are the qualifications, etc. Starting now will save her alot of time and allow her to find a goal she needs to work for.
Good luck!

As for everything else going on with me, I am finally starting to get over my cold, and can finally breath, so I am looking forward to walking tomorrow for more than 1/2 mile or so. I know my dog is looking forward to it too! I was going to start doing Dance Dance Revolution, as we got it for my oldest daughter for christmas, but holy cow! Thats hard!!! So, I dug out my old VHS of the original Sweatin' To The Oldies, and I am looking forward to giving that a shot

I have a Girl Scout meeting tomorrow, which I still have to get ready for (I am a troop leader) but aside from that, its my day to get my arse in gear and get moving!

Have a great night everyone

[ZedAus]

Just checking in before heading off to bed. We have a public holiday tomorrow, so we could sleep in, but lately we still seem to be getting up at 5:30am or earlier anyway. I suppose that at least I won’t have to worry about getting back into a proper sleeping habit when school starts Monday.

Some of the following messages may be a little out of date, because I wrote them yesterday (in Word) and saved the document, ready to post, but my computer spat the dummy. Lucky I saved it! I wouldn’t want to type all of this again! If I’m a little behind, please forgive me.

Honiangel – It is perfectly OK to boast about getting your exercise in. We all understand how hard that can be, and cheer you on from the sidelines. Exercise is a great way to start and it seems as though you did an excellent job with food choices the next day, so well done!

Heather – Sorry to hear that you have to put up with so much rubbish from the women around you. I can’t believe how people like that have the impression that it is their right to say nasty things about overweight people, but I wonder if they spend as much time complimenting people with stunning figures. Guess not – I would imagine that they are too jealous. I am looking forward to hearing where your next posting with the navy will be.

I think you have made a good decision about talking with a dietician. I have a friend who is a dietician and she has given me some of the best advice on healthy eating that I could ever hope to receive. She is SO positive all the time too, which really helps.

Good luck with staying off the scales. I am HOPELESS at that! I feel as though if I go too long without weighing myself, I could have put on weight and may have been able to do something about it earlier. I’m hoping that once I get to my target weight I will be less obsessive.

Jill – Good on you for getting back on track after the extra ‘snacking’. I have never thought of looking for nutritional information of restaurant meals online. I didn’t even know that was possible. Mind you, I still don’t know if any local restaurants do that, but I’m certainly going to look. That is one of my aims for 2006 – to be able to eat out in a healthy way.

Mechell – I was 350lbs when I started on my healthy lifestyle and I was as worried as you about how unfit I was. I just started by marching or doing basic aerobics exercises to music in my lounge room. It sounds as though this is similar to the Walk Away the Pounds DVDs, but I’m not really sure. I basically just did as much as I could cope with at a time and added more time, or recorded faster music when I was up to it. Now I have a treadmill and an exercise bike and I get a good workout with both of them. It has taken me a long time to get to this stage though.

Dogpal – It is wonderful to hear that the interview went so well! Great job! It sounds as though they were really impressed with you. What a confidence booster. It will certainly make you happier to apply for other jobs, if you don’t get (or accept ) this one.

Ammi – Thank you for always taking the time to answer posts personally. I love reading what you have to share. Well done for making good food choices at the hospital. One of my biggest problems used to be stress eating and I was so thrilled at one stage last year when work got REALLY bad, but I didn’t turn to food. But boy, did the treadmill get a good workout that day!

Julee – I am so impressed that you could share your story with us. Thank you. I am SO sorry that this ever happened to you, but you sound like you have come through as a fairly strong person. I’m glad you have Jason to support you. I’m not sure why I ended up getting as big as I did, other than bad food choices and a VERY sedentary lifestyle. I know that there could be underlying causes, but I’ve never really looked into things that deeply. Perhaps I should one day – it would be very helpful to know.

Garnetfairy – It sounds as though the gym scales are the more accurate ones anyway, so I would stick to their reading. If that is where you started your readings, then that is where you should stay. Well done on the loss!!!

Felicia – I’m so glad your gazelle finally showed up. It sounds as though hubby is having a great time. I can’t wait to hear if he found some new muscles in the morning though. There could be a few aches and pains involved. I’m sure it won’t be too long before you will be competing with him for ‘gazelle time’.


I have a little ‘boast’ of my own today. Yesterday I had an “I feel beautiful” day. That probably sounds SO vain, but I even had some days close to that when I was bigger (more ‘pretty’ than beautiful though). You know the kind… things just look and feel ‘right’. My hair was behaving itself and I really liked the outfit I had on. Well… anyway… I went to school for a little while and saw people I hadn’t seen for the last 6 and a half weeks. ALL of them were so impressed with how I looked and they said it looked as though I had lost a lot more weight. This was such a boost for the morale. I have only lost about 3kg (6.6lbs) in the last 6 and a half weeks and I am used to losing a kilo a week. So I have been on a bit of a downer for a while. I had a feeling that the exercise bike may have just been toning things up a little, but I wasn’t sure. These comments confirmed that this must have been happening, so I felt even better than I had been before. I even got hubby to take some photos of me, THAT is how good I felt. I will post the pics on a webpage and add the address at the end of this if I remember after writing this ‘novel’.

Hope you all have a wonderful day.

Take care,

Zelma

Here is the photo page for anyone who is interested... and who hasn't had enough of looking at photos of this VERY vain person. I will add photos to the page as I go along. We took some more today, with our visitors, so I may be adding to it sooner than I thought.

http://www.neilknobbe.com/zelma/holiday.html

[JuleeCeeS]

Luan....WTG on your loss!!!

Garnet...WTG on your awesome meal...that's a lot like what I order when I go out. I'm not even tempted by tortillas and chips anymore. Every once and a while I'll have corn tortillas..but only one or two. They are nice and low in points. Skipping the sopapilla was probbaly a good idea..but the key is do not totally deprive yourself. That's when you start to resent the process, yourself and even those trying to help you who are eating "treats." I have recently started allowing myself a weekly treat that I know is not on my plan. I'm not even talking about a big piece of cake or anything...but the coffee place we go to after our WW meetings has amazing peanut butter cookies. They are big and I eat the whole thing...but it also takes me about 20 minutes to eat it becuase I break off little pieces and dip it into my skim latte.

In my own news...I lost 1.4 this week!!! The funny thing is that since Thanksgiving that's exactly what I have lost. I have battled the same 5 lbs since Thanksgiving...but I am now down from where I was...which makes me really happy. Next week is our 1 year anniversary at WW..and as of tonight I have lost 86.6 lbs...in a year. I cannot believe how different I am and my life is. I actually caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror tonight at a differnet angle and I was amazed at how thin my face looked. people have told me that especially in my face I look like half of what I used to..and tonight I finally saw it. AMZAZING!

BTW...I watched the Biggest Loser tonight..the last 30 minutes anyways. Since when is it healthy to lose 21 lbs in 2 weeks??? I think it's great and yeah they have everything there they need to succeed....and great incentives too...but last time I checked it was not healthy to lose that much in 2 weeks time. Or were they at the Ranch for longer?


Good night chickies...tomorrow night we're off to bed Bath & Beyond to do more registry stuff...yowza!

[CatherineM]

Ammi- my foster son is a chef in the US Navy. He is so far from being athletic. He played little league for two years before he got his first hit. When he did get on base because of a walk, I'd have to stand at the fence by 1st base to yell when it was time for him to run. He eventually put his efforts into boy scouts, and finally made Eagle Scout 3 months before he would have been too old. He did okay in boot camp on the situps and pushups, but his running was just too slow. He had to stay an extra 4 weeks past his class's graduation to finally pass the run test. I told him that just meant that he would have 4 extra weeks of pay to blow on his first liberty, and boy did he. Heather is right a recruiter can tell her everything she needs to know. Just remember that sometimes they can fib a bit. Treat them like a used car saleman.