[buckettgirl]

I'm not here to argue with anyone, so if that is what you want to do or if you think that is what I'm here for, then you needn't read any further.
I've needed to rant about this place for a long, long time. I keep coming back in the vain hope that maybe someone thinks outside the box. I am continually discouraged.
This is somewhat in reference to my post in the birth control thread; and telling the OP that 800cal/day is basically ok, as long as it is high protein, and should be medically supervised.
(Just to clarify, in this post, I am referring to all legitimate diet plans; and exclude anorexia and bulimia... those people need to be supported and encouraged to seek immediate medical help).

Y'all can argue the starvation mode thing till yer blue in the face.
But I have yet to see any statistically significant research to show that obese people go into "starvation mode" when they diet.
There is no magic number to calories that applies to every body, and anyone who believes there is, is simply foolish.
You do what works for you, but there is no reason to knock down a low calorie diet.

For the record (and you can search my posts) I am doing an Optifast based plan... medically supervised very low calorie high protein diet. Is it restrictive? YES. Does it need to be? YES. Research has shown that people maintain significant weight losses when their variety is limited (and if you read the "You: On a Diet" book, you will note that exposure to a variety of tastes during a meal causes one to eat more).
When I am on plan, I eat about 500-800 calories per day, and I lose about 5lbs per week. When I am off plan, I eat about 4000 calories per day, and after about 5 or 6 days of that, all I have gained is about 8lbs of water weight. Do I go off plan because it is too restrictive or because I feel hungry? ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY NO. I go off plan because I am addicted to food, in much the same way that alcoholics are addicted to alcohol and the like. I go off plan because I have no alternative coping strategies; because nothing satisfies quite like food (which is actually a brain neurotransmitter issue; food elicits a stronger dopamine response than most other things - which has been scientifically shown as well).
I started this plan back in June of 2006; I have yet to experience anything that could come close to resembling "starvation mode."

I keep coming back to 3fc because there are a few (very few) people here who are genuinely interested in my journey with this very low cal plan. However, besides being busy, I find that it is difficult for me to come here when I need support because of judgmental attitudes.
It is very disheartening to see how judgmental people are when someone does something other than what is in the mainstream. It is also very disheartening to see that people will believe whatever the media throws at them, whether or not there is any basis to the claims (and that people don't do their own research in order to decide for themselves.) Its hard enough to deal with being fat in real life with people always asking questions or giving disapproving looks when you try to change something about your habits... I should be able to come here and feel safe from that; everyone who comes here should feel safe from that.

This is supposed to be a place that is accepting of all body weights and all plans... yet I find that to be not quite true... I can count on one hand the number of people (who have commented) who have been interested, encouraging, and optimistic with the plan that I am on.
I am not asking for everyone to come here and gush about how wonderful I have done so far... thats not what I want. What I want is a wake-up call; before you go around and tell people they aren't doing the right plan, do some research to back up your response and also take into account that you don't know their whole story.
I think that too many people approach weight loss with rose-colored glasses. The idea of a "lifestyle change" is great... but there is no one, specific definition of that idea that works for every person.
Weight loss is hard no matter what your size is. It is an even bigger issue and challenge when you are morbidly obese and on the slippery slope to becoming one of those people bedridden by their weight and their addiction (which I believe I will always be on that slippery slope). People need to be able to come here and feel accepted and not ashamed for the type of diet they choose. Having a support group of any kind can make a world of difference; but I find that I can't get that here.... at least not what I'm looking for, especially with the plan that I do.
One of the reasons I stopped posting about my struggles is because I would either get a slew of responses wanting me to explain my plan all over again or inevitably someone would say that they didn't think that it could be healthy. Its medically supervised, so it doesn't matter if you think its healthy or not; and if you see someone post that they are eating a low number of cals, your best advice is not tell them to up their calories, but to encourage them to seek medical advice/supervision if they haven't already done so.

Basically, there is no one right amount of calories or amount of weight loss per week. Everyone's body is different and none of us are in a position to judge how others approach their weight loss... we all do what works for us as individuals. You can't be supportive of a person's weight loss if you are (whether being straight forward or in a round-about way) telling them they are doing it wrong.

End Rant.
I'm tired and I'm going to bed; but I'm fired up enough about this that maybe I will get out of my current slump....Now that I'm mad about it, I want to make this plan work in spite of my addiction just prove everyone wrong.

Thank you for that opinion... it is nice to read something different every now and then. Especially when it's concise and articulate. Many people will continue to disagree with you, but I personally believe that we all must do what is right for ourselves--- not just in the weight-loss arena, but everywhere in life. Best of luck proving everyone wrong.

[Heather]

Amanda -- I agree with much of what you say, especially when you discuss what we research and present as fact that may not be true. And I'm sad you're not receiving the support you need here. I have watched your journey on Optifast for a while, and I think I've maintained that while it's a plan I would never do, I respected that you did everything you could to make what you thought was the right choice for you. I have always been relieved that your plan involves medical supervision.

As a social psychologist and a researcher, I am frequently appalled by the poor information that gets disseminated casually around here as fact. Though, I must admit that I, too, have not carefully researched every word I type – though I try to be as good about it as I can. And all too frequently, I find that my well-researched information (complete with citations) is ignored in favor of a more “popular” response.

One of the many things I have learned in my professional life is that people are really not very good thinkers much of the time. We rely on cognitive heuristics (such as the confirmation bias, the availability heuristic and vividness effect) all the time to come to conclusions and make decisions.

We very frequently mistake “X happened, and then Y happened,” for “X caused Y”. And thus, we think we know why our weight loss plateau ended, and casually pass that advice off to everyone as the way to end them. I’m not passing judgment on anyone who does this. Heck, I do this too, from time to time. I think it’s easy and natural, and probably made good sense when people needed to try to predict the weather and the seasons. But it doesn’t make us right.

And yet we THINK we’re really good processors of information. We tend not to know a good source from a bad source, and frequently get frustrated by research findings that seem to contradict each other. “After all,” we figure, “if the experts can’t agree, then all choices must be equally good.”

However, I don't know if I can agree to the point that all plans are good plans. You said it yourself:

(Just to clarify, in this post, I am referring to all legitimate diet plans; and exclude anorexia and bulimia... those people need to be supported and encouraged to seek immediate medical help).

It can be really hard to know whether a plan is "legitimate" or not. After all, we sometimes get people posting here who are doing starvation diets with no medical support, and I personally cannot casually stand back and watch as others read that information and think, “Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. I'll eat nothing but slugs for a week and the weight will just fly off.”

So, what’s the solution? I’m afraid I don’t have an easy answer for you. I know that I, personally, try to support people when I can. After all, their choices are not my choices. But if I do see what I think is bad information going around, I sometimes say something. And if I really think someone is doing something dangerous, it’s hard not to say something.

I think people are trying to help. I don’t think they are trying to be mean. That doesn’t make it any easier for you, though.

So, I have no answers, except that I truly value this place for my own support, ideas, and inspiration, and hope you can find a way to do the same.

[mandalinn82]

OK, I am going to delete my previous post, because it came across as harsh, and I really wasn't trying to be - this type of post is a pet peeve of mine.

I can imagine it must be hard to get the same questions and lack of support here when you post about your plan. At the same time, though, when you make a post, you are inviting people to comment on it. And people have done that, and will continue to do that. Because your plan is so different from those that many of us follow, we are going to have questions, and we're going to ask those questions if you post asking for advice or support. We are all going to give out the advice that has worked for US - and unfortunately, there is a critical mass of posters on this board for whom calorie/point counting or portion control, exercise, and a tendency toward lean proteins and whole foods is working or has worked.

I disagree also that you cannot support someone by telling them that they are doing something wrong. Sometimes, you need to look at other peoples viewpoints to get a better grasp on your plan, or tweak it. And if no one provided advice or suggestions here, we'd have tons of posts...one after the other...to which the only responses were "have you asked your doctor?" because thats really the only -solid- advice that can be given...most everything else is a combination of second hand research, personal experience, anecdote, and other non-official information. Thats the way that it goes when you join a board of non-experts.

Bottom line is that I think everyone on this board offers the information that they have available to them freely - and because the nature of the board is to discuss topics relating to weight loss, will bring up differing viewpoints. I don't think anyone is meaning to attack you by saying that they aren't sure your plan can be healthy - they are offering the information that THEY have found to be true in a forum designed specifically for that purpose.

Anyway, I AM really sorry you don't feel supported here, and sorry you're so frustrated. But I think the way that the board functions in a general sense (member asks for support, others provide advice and information based on their own knowledge and own experiences) might be counter to what you are looking for right now. On a practical level, could you put something in your signature that says something like "I am on Medifast, which is <describe program>, it is medically supervised and my doctor and I agree it is a healthy choice for me" and see if that resolves some of the problem of having to repeat yourself or argue with people saying it is unhealthy? Its a little wordy, but it might allow you to get the support you're looking for without dealing with any of the problems you mentioned above.

[NemesisClaws]

Originally Posted by mandalinn82

OK, I am going to delete my previous post, because it came across as harsh, and I really wasn't trying to be - this type of post is a pet peeve of mine.

I can imagine it must be hard to get the same questions and lack of support here when you post about your plan. At the same time, though, when you make a post, you are inviting people to comment on it. And people have done that, and will continue to do that. Because your plan is so different from those that many of us follow, we are going to have questions, and we're going to ask those questions if you post asking for advice or support. We are all going to give out the advice that has worked for US - and unfortunately, there is a critical mass of posters on this board for whom calorie/point counting or portion control, exercise, and a tendency toward lean proteins and whole foods is working or has worked.

I disagree also that you cannot support someone by telling them that they are doing something wrong. Sometimes, you need to look at other peoples viewpoints to get a better grasp on your plan, or tweak it. And if no one provided advice or suggestions here, we'd have tons of posts...one after the other...to which the only responses were "have you asked your doctor?" because thats really the only -solid- advice that can be given...most everything else is a combination of second hand research, personal experience, anecdote, and other non-official information. Thats the way that it goes when you join a board of non-experts.

Bottom line is that I think everyone on this board offers the information that they have available to them freely - and because the nature of the board is to discuss topics relating to weight loss, will bring up differing viewpoints. I don't think anyone is meaning to attack you by saying that they aren't sure your plan can be healthy - they are offering the information that THEY have found to be true in a forum designed specifically for that purpose.

Anyway, I AM really sorry you don't feel supported here, and sorry you're so frustrated. But I think the way that the board functions in a general sense (member asks for support, others provide advice and information based on their own knowledge and own experiences) might be counter to what you are looking for right now. On a practical level, could you put something in your signature that says something like "I am on Medifast, which is <describe program>, it is medically supervised and my doctor and I agree it is a healthy choice for me" and see if that resolves some of the problem of having to repeat yourself or argue with people saying it is unhealthy? Its a little wordy, but it might allow you to get the support you're looking for without dealing with any of the problems you mentioned above.

Agreed.

[LindseyLouWho]

I agree with mandalinn82. *sigh* I feel as if my post was the straw that broke Amanda's back, and I'm sorry for that. I did not mean to step on anyone's toes, but was merely going on what I've read here from some of who I consider to be rather successful and knowledgeable people in terms of weight loss. That's it. It's kind of intimidating that my first post, other than in the profiles, on the 100 lb. club board was met with such hostility, even if it was not only directed towards me.

I'm sorry if you took that as me saying that NO low calorie diet is okay. I fully support any medically supervised diet that someone may be on, if both they and their physician are happy with it. In the post about BC pills, the person did not mention that she was on any sort of medically supervised plan, and I gathered that she had just decided on that number without any guidance from an expert. Also, I just went to the Optifast website to learn more about the diet, and this caught my attention:

"The well-documented weight loss success of the OPTIFAST® Program is based on the use of a liquid Formula diet. This diet is portion-controlled, calorically precise, nutritionally complete, and has been shown to help people stick to their diet plan."

Right there, it says that this diet is precise and nutritionally complete. That's much different than the average dieter eating meals made from ingredients that they pick up from the store, picking and choosing what they want to eat. Most people don't have the knowledge or discipline to eat a nutritionally complete diet made up of their own food choices. In conclusion, my post was in no way about doctor supervised plans. I agree with the mentality that everyone is different and must find a plan that works for them.

I'm sorry that you're feeling let down by 3FC and feel that there isn't enough open-mindedness here. Just know that I am not one of the people who is against your diet plan. I wish you continued success in your efforts.

[kaplods]

This site is an open forum, where people are free to share their experiences and opinions. Whatever plan you are on, you will find those who disagree with it, and are more than willing to say so. And if you are on a plan that more people find controversial, or a plan that many have had very bad past experiences with, you are going to see more disagreement and criticism than you may feel is your "fair share."

I've tried quite a few other weight loss forums, and have found none as friendly and accepting as this one. Even when criticising, most people here at least make an effort to be polite, which I haven't found to be true everywhere. Whether someone agrees with me or violently disagrees, I consider both support, because they both make me understand my own opinions better.

I think we have to remember that we all are basically strangers to one another. I don't mean this to diminish the relationships we form here, but no one here is obligated to meet another member's needs (even if it were possible to determine what those where). We're each here to get what we can out of contributing and reading others posts. We throw out what we can, and hope it helps others and doesn't hurt or offend anyone, but to a large degree that is out of our control. We can't be everything to everybody in our personal lives, let alone in a public forum.

You do have the disadvantage of being on a minority plan. It is a plan that has often been abused (by lack of appropriate medical support) and a plan that has failed miserably for many, and that is going to be reflected in some of the questions, comments, and criticisms you receive. If you need people to agree with your plan and not comment negatively on it, you may have to choose how and where you post on this site, or at least make your desires known somewhere in your post.

If you aren't getting what you need here, you can try to find it elsewhere, or try to develop it here. There may be others on plans similar to yours that you can find here, or maybe a statement that comments on your plan are not welcome will help. I think sometimes you have to ask for what you need, or at least make clear what you are not willing to accept, and most people will at least try to cooperate.

[Jen]

Hi Amanda, sorry things are rough for you right now. First of all I completely agree with what you have said about studies etc. Anyone and everyone does studies and they can all be manipulated so that the right findings come up. Also we don't always hear every detail about the study, where it was done, control groups, who were the participants etc. I take everything I hear about weight loss with a grain of salt. Secondly about very low cal diets, I don't think there is anything wrong with them. I would say that most of us are so sedentary we probably need the minimal # of calories to survive and what that # is depends on the person.

You may not have seen my thread about the Master Cleanse and I got a lot of negative opinions about that even though there are thousands of people who do it and it works for them. I haven't posted a follow up to how it worked out for my husband because I just didn't want to have people post in a negative fashion. Yes this is an open forum but in someways I think of the old adage if you can't say something nice don't say anything.

But anyway I think you may want to find a board that is exclusively Optifast or some other VLC diet plan in order to find better support than what you are finding here. Those people will have a better idea of what you are going through.

[rockinrobin]

Amanda, I too am so sorry that you are feeling so let down by 3FC. You must realize though that everyone here is entitled to their own opinion. As are you. Opinions are just that - opinions, someones own take on things, not necessarily fact. When someone writes something it is what that are taking from their own experiences. Because that's all we know. When we speak we are for the most part generalizing. I think most here know that we are all different. Not the same things will necessarily work for everyone.

As far as your "diet" is concerned I am glad it is working for you. Beyond belief glad. And I wish you continued and longterm success. Here comes a harsh part, so if you don't want to read then maybe you should stop right here. Like it or not you have chosen a plan that is highly restrictive and one that many people do not attempt for a host of reasons. 3FC is all about promoting a healthy "lifestyle", one that will last forever and ever and your plan is not about that. That's not to say that it can't work, but as a whole it's a hard pill to swallow and therefore I do think you will find it hard to find a large amount of people who would agree with you and support this kind of plan. That's not to say that we can't support YOU. Because we most certainly can. I don't think anyone here has a problem with wanting to support and encourage YOU on your journey and your efforts. I'm sure you must realize you've picked a plan that puts you in the minority. You are amongst people who for the most part have chosen to lose their weight through eating healthy foods in healthy portions and exercise. Being in the minority is never fun. You must have a thick skin.

[kaplods]

I agree that being hurtful on purpose has no place on this board or any other (and I think the moderators do a great job of nipping nastiness in the bud), but I think we have to be careful about saying we should keep quiet "if you can't say something nice," because I think most of us want to hear criticism as well as praise. If someone has had a bad experience or sees flaws or risk in something I or someone else is doing, I think it is beneficial to hear about it (even if they can't articulate it very well) We're all very different in our ability and style of expressing ourselves. One person may be able to be more diplomatic and say "I don't think that would work for me," or "I tried that and it was a disaster, because..." another person may say "that's a crazy idea," and mean it no more harshly. Do we tell the opinionated or less tactful person they need to keep quiet.

By sharing our opinions positive and negative, I think we all learn to see the bigger picture. I think any time we are in a minority opinion though, we have to be aware that we may have a hard time finding agreement or even acceptance from others. It doesn't mean that people who disagree are being intentionally unsupportive. Usually, they're trying (possibly ineptly) to share their experiences for the benefit of others.

I don't know if I ever criticised Amanda's program, but it is very possible, as my experience with very low calorie diets, including one supervised by a physician, were dismal. I too consider myself addicted to food, and have spent 36 of my 41 years battling the addiction. I know I have shared what is working for me, and what hasn't in the past, as well as my opinions on what makes this battle easier and more difficult. I don't always remember to add disclaimers such as "this is only my opinion," because I expect in most cases that it is generally understood.

[Cheryl14]

Hi Amanda!

Congratulations on your weight loss!

I have the Oprah 20-Year DVD set and watched Oprah's section on weight. She was on Optifast, too. She lost 67 pounds by using it. She DID say that when she went OFF it she gained back weight at an alarming rate. I don't know what foods she ate or how much of them she ate. Maybe you can ask your doctor about the transition to regular foods once you have reached your goal so that weight gain doesn't happen to you as it did to Oprah.

Good Luck with your plan! If it's working for you and it is medically supervised then you should be fine. Keep reading on this site for ideas that will also help you once you transition to regular foods.

We all need help getting control over food no matter what plan we choose to use!

Cheryl

[reds ohare]

Hi Amanda. I too am doing an Optifast-based plan (New Lifestyle), but mine is not weekly medically supervised, so I try and stay around 1000-1200 calories a day. I also was hesitant to flat out say it, because I know the negative thoughts that occur when someone says "liquid diet".

I have found that it is very difficult to find supports of the LD (liquid diet) lifestyle unless they are actively involved, or have seen the results firsthand. I supplement mine with a L&G (lean and green....5-8oz of lean meat and 2+cups veggies) meal some day, and do shakes the rest of the time.

Many people don't realize that the LDs of today are very different than the LDs of the past. I know that with this, I am getting a nutritionally balanced diet, and before, I was not. I too needed to remove food from my life for a bit, and I will always have a problem with it. It's just getting to the part where it's not quite as much of a problem, and I am finding that easier when I go off plan. It's not like you're drinking Orange Juice and chicken broth.

I agree, there is no "magic" number for starvation mode, but without doctor supervision, I think that it's important to get 800+ a day, mainly because you don't know what your body is doing on the inside. But that is my opinion. I am hesitant to try the 450-ish calories a day, because I actually do work out daily, and sometimes get burned out on 1000 calories.

I tend to say that I am on a "low calorie, low fat, low carb, high protein, partially liquid" diet.

It amuses me how widely accepted Slimfast is, but as soon as you take out that one "healthy" meal a day it automatically becomes a bad idea. The slim fast plan the way that most people do it (2 shakes and a healthy meal) is only about 1000 calories a day, and not quite as balanced as all liquid.

Before I started the LD, I did a great deal of research on it, and after failing so many other diets, I am finally finding something that is going to work for me. It's very possible that I might be in the percentage of people that regain the weight, but I am dead set and determined NOT to be. As soon as I get down to about 175, I am planning on starting to transition to all regular foods, and then I am going to join Weight Watchers. It's all about having a plan, and sticking to it.

Best of luck to you. I know that finding support is difficult. Please feel free to email me anytime, I would love to chat with you.

[LisaMarie71]

I agree with everyone else, but I would hope that you could continue posting here and that you could find support and encouragement. If I've ever been anything less than encouraging to ANYone about weight loss, then I certainly didn't mean it. It's an extremely difficult thing, as we all know, and we have to each find our own way. I've had a very different experience reading posts on this board, because I've always seen posters writing "whatever works for you is what you have to do." Nearly all of us say that when we post an opinion about someone else's plan, it seems. You have a different perspective, however, because you're doing a very different plan whereas I'm doing the traditional calorie counting and exercise, so maybe it's easier for me to feel accepted. I've felt at times that people were a tiny bit judgmental about not eating processed foods, but not to any extent that would offend me.

It's certainly true that people repeat whatever they've heard in the media without knowing for sure if it's true, but more often than not at 3FC, people seem to speak from their own experiences. I know that for me, a very low calorie diet is something I would never keep up for long, so I don't see the point of doing it. If it works for you, and it seems to be working (look at all the weight you've lost so far, after all!), then that's wonderful. I'm truly sorry you don't feel supported here.

[GirlyGirlSebas]

Hi Amanda,

I have chosen to follow the Southbeach plan. Southbeach works for me and I can honestly see myself following this plan for the rest of my life. Like you, I have often felt a bit of negativity regarding my plan choice and have felt the need to defend my plan. However, I have always felt 100% supported by my 3FC friends in my efforts to lose the weight and improve my life. I am truly sorry that you have not felt the same support and encouragement.

Most of at 3FC have fought the weight loss battle for our lifetimes. Can we really blame those who have found success for becoming enthusiastic advocates and proponents for what has worked so very well for them? They have found answers and want to share their answers with those of us who are struggling. And, I want to hear how they did it...I want to hear about what works for them because I am continually looking for answers and I have not been as successful myself. Unfortunately, this site does not seem to have many dieters who have been successful on your type of plan. Many of us have have very negative experiences. This does not mean that we are not 100% behind your efforts to succeed with your weight loss efforts. This plan appears to be working very well for you and I am so very happy for you.

[beautifulone]

Hi Amanda,
I am sorry to hear that you have felt unsupported and even criticized at 3FC. Certainly I've always appreciated what I've perceived as a supportive environment on these forums, and I always hope others also benefit from this support.

I agree with what others have said. My one suggestion I want to offer is that it may be helpful to include a brief statement about your diet in your signature and maybe even a link to the thread where you explain what Optifast is if you feel like that's not too much. Personally, I never knew what Optifast was (or that it existed) until I read about your experiences. I do not know if I am one of the few or one of the many, but it makes sense that people are may ask questions about the diet itself after reading your posts, it's a sign of interest. Is it the same people who ask a slew of questions after reading your posts? Or people who are meeting you for the first time and who want to understand a little more?

Whatever you decide, I hope it is in your best interest and best for you. After all, you do need to do what is going to work for you. Good luck.