Ha! I love that "I'll know it when I see it!"

Shmead: Your division of "obese" into medically obese and socially obese ... that's brilliant. Thank you, thank you for writing that. Given my life experience, I can't help pondering about obesity a lot of the time. (Way too much of the time, in fact.) It's like my hobby to think about it & its meaning & effects. So this was a wonderfully sensible concept, because it fits in with what we've been saying about being obese in one's peer group or community or geographic area. (Which I've said before, I experience in my own life as feeling thin when I'm back in my hometown in Upstate NY & feeling heavy when I'm in Manhattan & the Westchester suburbs. Without any corresponding change in the scale. Put me on a yoga mat in my regular gym & I'm a Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade balloon. Send me Upstate & walking around the State Fair at Syracuse, and I'm svelte & refusing all the kettle corn & spiedies & Buffal wings.)

yeah, that's interesting. I just saw a preview on a dvd I rented for a French movie. It's about an older couple, I think in their 70s, guessitimating that, and the wife has been married for 50 odd years to the same man. then she meets and falls in love with another man. it's very sexual.

as I get older, what I think is sexy has definitely changed.

I asked my bf about this (sort of) topic today (he's not overweight), he said the guys he knew in college didn't make a big deal about dating women who were thin, and they didn't put that much emphasis on a woman's weight. I agree guys don't seem to have a clear idea of real numbers when it comes to that. They go by what they see (and like or don't like). And obviously they like you! ;)

Shmead's defintion is dead on. Excellent.

And Paris81, I too have just entered the online dating world and finding it very disconcerting. I had originally posted a head shot of me 100 lbs heavier as it was the only digital picture I had. Within a week I had posted a few pictures that were more timely, about 75 lbs down and "winks" and introductory e-mails dropped off to nearly nothing. Updated with a picture from a few weeks ago when I hit 97 lbs down and got quite a lot of attention, but bizarrely, mostly from 30-35 year olds (I'm 50).

I've really hated what this process of putting myself out there has done to my new weight loss inspired confidence. I go from feeling like I'm hot stuff to "nobody wants me" in short order. Luckily I keep picking myself up and trying again and tonight am going out on my first live date with someone I've met on line.

Good luck to both of us in this brave weird new world.

Thank you for your kind words. I was thinking about your observation of NYC vs upstate NY when I wrote them.


More thoughts: I think this is why people resist/resent BMI so much, even though, medically speaking, it is pretty accurate for the vast majority of people. When the BMI says they are 10-15 lbs overweight, they think it is saying they are "socially" overweight--which quickly translates into "you are fat and ugly, your mom is embarrassed and no decent man would sleep with you". People look in the mirror and they see that that isn't true--they aren't "socially overweight", so they decide BMI must be crazy. But it's not--it's just saying that your health would be somewhat improved if you lost those 10-15 lbs--in the same way your health would be somewhat improved if you got more sleep, wore SPF 30 sunblock every day without fail, ate more fiber, or got that well-woman checkup annually instead of every 18-24 months. It doesn't mean you have to, or that you are a bad person if you don't. It's just a factor.

Analogously: Today I told my sleeping husband I was turning the light on "for a second" to find my shoes. Obviously, the light was on for more than a scientific second--probably 10 seconds or so--but that's the length of a "social second", and if he'd corrected me and said "that was more like 5-10 seconds", would anyone have blamed me for rolling my eyes? This is the same thing.

Oh, thank you for that!! How is it that I'm that Macy's balloon in my Spin class but I come home and look in the mirror and think I look pretty good?! Or walking into any mall I feel like I look pretty normal, but step inside an individual store and suddenly I'm the amazon woman. :dizzy:

This is crazy! So you got more attention with pics of you at a higher weight? What is with this world? It could be the timing though--I've heard that if your profile is new, you get lots of attention, and then it slows down. So that timing may have conincided with your picture change.

I've been out with several guys since I started about two months ago, a few second dates, and one third, but that's it. It's a process, I guess, and my main goal is just to get comfortable with dating (which I've avoided all my life!). In that respect, I've been sucessful!

Good luck to you on your date!

BMI really shouldn't be used to "say that," either because it's not the most accurate indicator of health and fitness, because it doesn't distinguish between the weight of fat and that of muscle. A person who is overweight or even obese by BMI alone, may not really be. Athletes tend to have more lean muscle mass, and are often "obese" by BMI - yet their health would not be improved by losing weight, because the only weight ttey have to lose is muscle.


My husband has a friend who is "obese" by BMI standards, and when he asked his doctor if he needed to lose weight, his doctor laughed. He got out the calipers and told him that he was in a healthy body fat range, but could lose up to 10 lbs and still be in a healthy body fat percentage, but the doctor said he wouldn't recommend losing any more. The guy did lose those 10 lbs, and he's still in the "obese" category, but has no fat to lose. If he lost more fat, he'd actually be too lean. This guy is "ripped" - six pack abs, defined pecs, calves that are mesmerizing, a complete "hard-body" (even before the 10 lb loss he didn't just look ok shirtless and in shorts, he's body-builder, beach body lean).


I wish I had a photo to send you guys, because no kidding. Shirtless in shorts, he's scary, jaw-dropping, beach-body gorgeous, and any fat he actually has on his body (you have to have some to survive, let alone be healthy) is well-hidden. You can see the definition in absolutely every muscle. He's crazy athletic though, and is a gym-rat (both weight-training and aerobic), and he hikes and camps too. I've never actually seen the man sit down. He always paces and gestures with his hands and arms too. He's in constant motion.

In order to lose weight, he would have to lose muscle. His doctor told him that he has an ideal body composition (even with the former ten pounds he was still in a healthy fat composition).

BMI isn't entirely bogus, but if you have more muscle than average it's going to overestimate your body fat percentage. Not many of us can say we fall into that category (I doubt I ever will), but I've met several people that blow BMI out of the water as an indicator of health and fitness.

BMI is just a "short-hand" guesstimate. There are some BMIs that are so extreme that anyone at that BMI has to be at an unhealthy weight (either overfat or under weight), but there are many in the overweight and obese categories that aren't overweight at all - because they have more muscle tissue than the average.

BMI is less accurate than body fat analysis - it's just a lot esier to calculate.

OKCupid.com is like that too... and I have had similar experiences.
Even over 300 lbs, some guys just did not see me as THAT heavy/big.

Then again, when I was much smaller (long ago, and under 200 lbs), I knew some guys who were probably around 250, etc that considered me to be REALLY fat.

Yeah, OkCupid is the site I'm on...glad to hear someone else had a simliar experiance!

Could have been the timing thing, but as traffic went back up with latest picture, I suspect I crossed a dating category when I initially dropped below 200 lbs (the 75 lbs down set). Not big enough for the guys who liked a fuller figure, but too big for the guys who are looking for "toned" and "slender" categories.

I'd describe myself now at 168 as toned AND curvy, but that's not a choice on the site I'm using.

Thanks for the good wishes, heading out now to meet up. Gulp.

Interesting analysis of this divide in men's attractions! I'll really have to keep this in mind as I lose weight!

Have fun! Let us know how it goes!

Reporting in after date. Had a wonderful time. Fun to get dressed for an evening out with the idea of showcasing my assets rather than worrying about "looking fat".

Oddly, I confessed my weight loss. I had been looking forward to meeting someone who didn't know me as a fat girl but came out when I was explaining my 18 year gap in dating history.

I agree Shmead that you nailed it with the "social obesity/medical obesity" designation.

As a young woman I was socially obese at 165 lbs or a BMI of 25 because the norm in my social set was to be very slim.

I somehow decided that 150 was "overweight" and 160 was "obese." When I weighed 170, a weight I'd LOVE to weigh now, I was embarrassed and ashamed.

I notice the weird disconnect that Saef is talking about in my life as well-- at work, about an hour from home, I am rather slimmer than most. At home, I'm still a little chubby.

There is no doubt that obesity has been socially normed here. It is MUCH easier to be overweight now that it was in 1980.

Case in point, my mom dragged some clothes out of her drawer for me to try on.... I could fit nicely into a pair of size 12 Not Your Daughter's jeans that were a year or two old, but a really cute size 14 jeans skirt that was probably at least 20 years old-- NO WAY, confirming my memory that I could not wear a size 14 when I weighed more than 175.

I have very mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it is MUCH easier now to be twenty or thirty pounds overweight. You will look more socially attractive, blend into the crowd more easily, and find clothing to wear more easily.

On the other hand, the social norming of overweight and obesity does raise questions about our lifestyle and whether this is not a very bad thing for people in the long run.

As painful was it was to bust out of normal sized clothes as soon as I hit a BMI of 25 or so, at least it did give me a very concrete sense of what it meant to gain 15 lbs.

I think that someone who is 20 lbs overweight, but does not feel socially obese is probably much better off than a person who carries those same 20 lbs and feels overweight, with all of the social stigma attached.

On the other hand, the person who feels the stigma of 20 extra pounds may be more likely to lose them, which is health-promoting in the long run.

Ahahaha! I'm on okc too, and I know what you mean!

I've had a lot of issue with this "morbidly obese" label. Everyone I tell that I am morbidly obese, jumps all over me like I'm lying. I'm between 5'5 and 5'6, and I weigh 253. (I weighed 293 at my HW)

It was very rare for me to find someone who would look at me and genuinely think I was morbidly obese. I definitely get "healthy-looking" more than anything.