but what good is that infomation if one is considerably cheaper than the other and has all the good tasting junk people are programmed to eat. ever had a fast food meal and felt wonderful till about half and hour later? then you feel awful and only more junk food makes you better?
And you still CHOOSE to eat more.
It's still their choice to go buy more or only buy junk food. Healthy food isn't expensive at all. It's very affordable.
Last edited by sunflowergirl68; 06-02-2009 at 06:03 PM.
Maybe the government can encourage people to eat healthier and exercise more, (**** I'd like a cash incentive to lose weight) but it's not their fault that junk food is cheap.
Ahh, but it is. I think that's the point Mandalin and I were trying to make.
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The reason HFCS appears in so many foods, and those foods can then be marketed so cheaply, is that HFCS is a byproduct of corn. The government pays farmers to produce more and more corn through subsidies...way more than is needed for more common uses. So the excess gets pumped into corn byproducts like HFCS, which are sold on the cheap because they are essentially being paid for by the government.
Mandalinn, thanks! You put that very well. It reminds me of a stat I read somewhere that something like 300 calories a day are produced in the US over and above what people need to consume (exports factored in). Those 300 calories thus need to be purchased (and consumed) by someone--and so the constant barrage to eat and eat and eat.
I'm trying to remember the name of the author I read who educated me about this. Wish I could remember. Marian something maybe?
Last edited by Alana in Canada; 06-02-2009 at 06:08 PM.
I definitely agree that people are responsible for what they put in their own mouths. Ultimately, that is where responsibility lies. But I do think that the current farm subsidies system is "broken" in a way that damages the food supply, which encourages and contributes to obesity. And if that subsidy program could be modified in such a way that moved the government money already being spent from crops used primarily to make junk to crops used primarily to be eaten with minimal processing, I think that would be a positive thing.
Sunflower - vegetables ARE cheap in CA, particularly in farming areas, like we are both in. I am always amazed when my friends from out of state and non-farming areas come to visit, and comment on how much my basket of produce would cost them after it traveled cross-country from the area in which it's grown to where they live. I remember once I bought my produce for the week at a farmstand while a friend was visiting from the DC area. She commented that my $60 worth of produce would have cost her around $150 to purchase at her supermarkets. It blew my mind...I'd never be able to afford to eat the way I do if I didn't have access to CA market prices.
And it's even worse in some cities or neighborhoods, where access to produce is limited to what can be purchased at a ridiculous markup at a convenience store, unless you have access to a car to drive into a more suburban area. The average cost of a healthy diet increases dramatically as you move further away from the sources of production, either into an inner-city area or to a state away from where the bulk of US produce is grown.
Could the government have prevented me from becoming obese?
Maybe, maybe not, but I'm willing to accept help from anywhere I can find it - and be grateful for it (not blaming anyone if I can't or don't use the help).
I'm not sure why it's assumed that if there are governmental programs aimed at treating/preventing obesity, that it means that the government is accepting full responsibility or blame for obesity - and absolving all individuals from any responsibility.
There are governmental programs for all sorts of things. The "arts," are a perfect example. I don't believe anyone assumes that art would not exist without government, and I think stipends for weight loss would be a better use of governmental funds than stipends for writers and artists. But, governments (at least democratic republics "of the people") support what it's people value, and we value education and the arts, so we fund them. I think it's certainly reasonable for us/the government to value the physical health of citizens as much or more than eductation and fine arts.
I agree that governmental programs can't solve the obesity epidemic, but there are ways it can, and should be part of the solution, starting with undoing some of the damage that has been done by government. Withdrawing subsidies for the production of empty calories would be a great start.
I don't "blame" anyone for my obesity. I don't even blame myself, at least not in the "you're a bad person, Colleen - a bad, bad person" way that I was taught to. I've learned that there are a lot of factors that contribute to obesity, and they are not the same from person to person. I can not claim poverty as one of my factors. Well, I guess indirectly, I can. I was raised in a middle class family only one generation removed from abject poverty. Getting too much to eat, had never been a concern, so my parents and grandparents didn't really know how to deal with an obese child (I was the first, and to this date only person in the family to have been overweight as a child, as an adoptee I do wonder if there is a genetic component - not that I'm looking for a place to lay blame, just curious - and wonder if weight issues "run" in my bio-family).
Understanding every factor, even for myself is probably impossible, but knowledge is power, and I think the "risk" of providing excuses is a lot lower than the risk of providing individuals with power. Excuses don't find people, people find excuses. Discovering that there may be genetic factors to some obesity did not make me give up and blame genetics for my weight, but it did give me insight as to why I might have been such a freak all of my life, where appetite and weight were concerned. While some people may use genetics as an excuse - they would have found some other excuse if there had been no research finding genetic factors.
Likewise, federal, state, county, and city governments, corporations, health insurer's, employers, community and charity groups, neighbors, individuals, families...... all can be part of the solution without taking any blame. By acepting asistance from any of those sources, I'm not handing over responsibility for my weight loss to someone else.
I don't think that governmental regulation or programs need to be expensive or invasive to be helpful. Much of it, governmental programs already do, and have done for decades - improving their effectiveness and efficiency should be part of the process.
I know that Marian Nestle wrote on the topic in "What to Eat". Michael Pollan has also done some writing on this, in "The Omnivores Dilemma" and "In Defense of Food".
Do you believe the government could or should have saved you from obesity? Or do think that it's a matter of personal responsibility and the government should stay out of it?
I'm less irked by the government doing something than by having the issue framed as black or white, one extreme or the other.
I'm less irked by the government doing something than by having the issue framed as black or white, one extreme or the other.
I agree this is not a black and white issue. The government providing help for obesity does not mean the government is shouldering the blame or taking the responsibility for obesity. It's not necessary to be the source of the problem, to be part of the solution.
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Originally Posted by sunflowergirl68
And, FTR, healthy food isn't expensive at all. Produce is very cheap.
As already said, this is not universally true. Firmly intrenched in the middle class, and always having had easy access to affordable transportation, I have never been unable to afford or access healthy food. However, in working in social services and law enforcement (as a probation officer), I worked with many people who were not as fortunate.
There are many people who not only have no reliable transportation, but also no reliable method of food storage. Yes, most poor families do have electricity and a refrigerator, but I still worked with many who frequently had their utilities (voluntarily or involuntarily) turned off during hard times. Many had no transportation, and had to buy from convenience stores, or small grocery stores in which healthier foods were quite expensive, or not available at all.
Only the wealthiest countries have obese poor. It's both to our credit and our shame that our poor are more likely to have obesity and food-excess issues (like high blood pressure, diabetes...) than the general population and the wealthy.
The government didn't make me obese; I did a wonderful job of that all on my own. I take full responsibility for my poor food choices and sedentary lifestyle.
Produce in my area is extremely expensive. I have room in my maintenance calories to eat more if only it were more affordable.
I guess I still don't get it. DC was mentioned and I see Tai is MD, as am I. There are farming communities all around DC. I go to a great farmer's market. Last week I brought home a HUGE bag of leaf lettuce, packed and stuffed as full as they could get it - $2. My DH and I ate salads every day for a week from that bag. In the summer I get 3 zukes or cukes or green peppers for $1. Friends of mine in the city join co-ops. Yes, grocery stores can be expensive, for that reason produce is one thing I rarely buy at the grocery store. But a store brand box of frozen spinach or bag of broccoli is still a huge bargain. How is this more expensive than junk? I just don't believe it is - in this country at least. Now, not having transportation or access, that's a different issue.
Oh, and to answer the original post, I don't think the government had anything to do with my obesity. Since it is a national health issue, however, they should try to be part of the solution.
@kaplods: I'm poor and I've always managed to have access to fruits and vegetables. If someone doesn't have access to transportation, how on earth are they getting to the unhealthy food? If they can go to where the unhealthy food is, there is no excuse for not being able to get to where the healthy food is. And, most fast food places offer salads and lower-calorie options.
I just don't believe that smaller grocery stores have more expensive healthy foods. I shop at a small grocery store and I live in a more rural area, and it's still inexpensive. And if you live in a city, you can walk. I walk to buy my food. And there's always the bus. And there's always a farmer's market somewhere, and that is extremely cheap. I got a bag of spinach for $1 and it lasted a week.
I just think a lot of people like to make excuses. If they want to eat healthy, they'd find a way. Plus, many cities have food pantries and many churches are more than willing to help people get healthy food, and there's always food stamps. Sometimes you might have to go out of your way.
And if for some reason produce is more expensive where you live, it's easy to cut from another area of your expenses to allow for more money for groceries. I've had to do it. Also, frozen veggies are really cheap and they last long. Most people aren't dirt poor, and if they are, they are getting government help.
I guess I just hate it when people make excuse after excuse. I am fat because I ate unhealthy and didn't exercise. I chose to eat unhealthy.
.I'd never be able to afford to eat the way I do if I didn't have access to CA market prices.
And it's even worse in some cities or neighborhoods, where access to produce is limited to what can be purchased at a ridiculous markup at a convenience store, unless you have access to a car to drive into a more suburban area. .
Thank you for mentioning that. I live in Kentucky and what is locally grown is tobacco most of the time. Even the farmer's markets are still pricey. Right now, my boyfriend refuses to buy me bananas from Kroger or Walmart because he wants it from the farmers market to save 10 cents a pound but they don't have any yet.
It's interesting to see different perspectives on this.
A friend of mine works with kids who live in a neighborhood where the only food option within walking distance is a dollar tree. It sells no produce, period, but it does have an aisle of convenience foods, chips, and soda. The only food access to the neighborhood without getting SOME form of transport is this store. This is in Sacramento - despite being surrounded by farms, there is an access issue. And that's when they feel safe walking (daylight hours). These kids live in a gang area where you can't BE walking or on the bus after hours. It's a real problem in inner cities. The same people saying "Walk to get your food" also say "Well, walking is free exercise". Which is true, unless your life is endangered walking in your neighborhood. I personally have never had to live in a neighborhood where I felt that unsafe, but lots of people do, because they have no choice.
Food banks do pass out food. Unfortunately, a lot of the donations that come in are the processed, canned, sodium-filled stuff that they can store. Many food banks don't have access to refrigeration, so they can't keep produce or fresh foods as long. They do get some grain staples, but its not like a food bank is a full service grocery store...you take what you can get, and what you can get often isn't healthy, because people donate canned product.
For the record, I was fat because I ate too much and made bad choices. I grew up with every choice and advantage, and that's fine. But that doesn't mean that other people are genuinely subjected to circumstances that make obtaining healthy foods and eating a healthy diet really, really difficult. And I do believe that anything that can be done to improve access for those people would be money well spent.
Vegetables fresh from the farm or just picked are more nutritious than their frozen or canned counterparts, but frozen and canned vegetables are an acceptable nutritional alternative. Just be mindful of the amount of salt added to canned vegetables; try to buy those without added salt. And, don't overcook any vegetables.
So the rationale that it has to be FRESH or it is CRAP is misguided.
I recall when fresh romaine lettuce was $5.99 a head due to frost conditions killing the source of this produce. I didn't head over to the frozen pizza section in response -- I bought spinach instead..
And if those in underpriveleged areas have weight issues and want to address them, they will find a way. Food banks give out canned foods, and there is nothing wrong with canned veggies if that is the best that you can get. It sure beats McDos any day of the week. You can get a great workout in your own home -- you don't have to go outdoors to get fit. You can improve your fitness in your own living room.
And like I've said before, US poverty levels are around 12% of the population. For these people, there definitely are barriers to health. But not all of those living in poverty are overweight/obese. So why are some and not others? And IF we assume that all 12% in poverty have weight issues, what is the excuse for the other 54% of the population that is overweight/obese? These people have access to services and transportation...So, yeah there are obstacles. But IMHO nothing is impossible nor insurmountable. Lots of people have done greater things under much worse circumstances...you just have to take responsibility for the problem if you want to solve it, because no one will solve this for you any time soon, not the government, not social policy, not the corporations, and not your family. You really are on your own path on this one...
I don`t know if this has been brought up yet but...
In regards to packaged food and being full of HFCS and trans fats. There are TONS of foods on the market that mascaraed themselves as being healthful. Granola bars, `fruit` snacks, applesauce cups (sugar added ones)... now we are all intelligent people who have knowledge and the internet on our side and can research or even THINK to research healthier options... but there are MANY who don`t research or CAN`T research or who just plain don`t KNOW that these things are bad for you.
For this reason I believe that HFCS, unnecessary trans fats etc should be banned. Taken out of food completely.
Kira, FWIW, I agree with that you're saying completely...that if losing weight is a priority to you, you can do it, and that no one is going to solve the problem for you. And in answer to the original question posed, I don't think that the government could have prevented me (or most people) from gaining weight in the first place.
I do think, though, that if government subsidies for corn were reduced or redirected to more healthy crops (green beans to get canned and sold in convenience stores, even, or apples to make apple sauce, or etc), it would be easier for people to make healthy choices in the face of adversity, which might, along with education and determination to make better choices, make a difference in nationwide obesity rates over time.
