Weight and Resistance Training Boost weight loss, and look great!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-01-2005, 03:10 PM   #31  
Senior Member
 
RobertW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Washington Heights, NYC
Posts: 506

Default

Cardio is great for WEIGHT loss, just not the best strategy for fat loss. Those of us with an interest in strength training and/or bodybuilding are concerned with % of bodyfat rather than bodyweight.
RobertW is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:32 PM   #32  
I choose
 
ShannonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 68

Default

And once again, Robert says in two sentences what I had to say in a book.
ShannonM is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:32 PM   #33  
Meg
Senior Member
 
Meg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 8,974

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShannonM
But here's the dirty secret that a lot of PTs don't like to talk about: fat loss is very often - not always but often - FASTER with the cutback or elimination of cardio. That's real. It has happened with me more than once and I am by no means the only one. PTs can have (and have had) greater success with clients when they advise them this way. The PT who runs my gym has worked with a lot of obese people, and his experience bears out what I'm saying. The elite athletes, trainers, and coaches who post on Fred Hatfield's forum have sworn to the same thing, reflected in their own workouts and in the advice they give to their clients.
Whoa - hold on just a sec here. I'm puzzled about this 'dirty little secret'. What possible motivation would a trainer have to deliberately give his or her clients bad information? To NOT help them attain their fat loss goals? I'm baffled by your implication that trainers are handing out what they know to be erroneous advice about cardio.

And is it only the 'elite' trainers who advise their clients not to do cardio? The rest of us are hacks and posers?

Shannon, I don't have any problem with you sharing what works for you -- as I always say, we're all different and what works for me doesn't necessarily work for you and vice versa. I did an hour of cardio per day, seven days a week, along with fairly heavy weight training (I'm talking 500# leg press, 175# deadlifts, 180# hacksquats etc) and lost 122 pounds in less than a year (while gaining eight pounds of LBM), so obviously cardio worked for me (and yes, I focused on body fat percentage and got it down to 14.5% from a start of over 50%). On the other hand, no cardio works for you. We're both reaching our goals in our own ways and that's awesome.

I DO have a problem with you insisting that your way is the right way and that trainers know it but are keeping it a secret for some nefarious reason. Certainly there are BB boards where little or no cardio is advocated. But I think you have to admit that outside the insular BB world, cardio is generally accepted as necessary for fat loss for most people. Every PT course teaches that, the seminars and workshops I've attended teach that, my personal experience teaches me that, and so does my experience with clients.

At the end of the day, fat loss comes down to calories in versus calories out. I hope we all can agree on that. No question, you absolutely can burn more calories with a higher LBM - in fact, every kilogram of LBM burns 50 calories per day. So building and maintaining muscle mass is essential for fat loss. No arguments from any of us here - we're all proponents of the LWL trinity. But cardio burns calories too and if someone can knock off an additional 500 calories per day through cardio, that's going to work out to another pound of fat lost per week. Again, I'm not disputing that your results are different but I honestly believe that the vast majority of overweight women will benefit from adding cardio to their exercise routines.

I don't have 'dirty little secrets' that I keep from my clients to try to hold them back from success. Nothing in the world makes me happier than helping my clients achieve their goals. The same goes for why I'm a moderator here at 3FC. I post about what I think works for weight loss, discovered through my own personal experiences and education, and always with the caveat that we all have to find our own ways.
Meg is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 03:36 PM   #34  
Uber-Moderator!!
 
MrsJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Silicon Valley, California
Posts: 5,020

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShannonM
You're right that I did "approve" that. In fact, the cardio I was doing was interval-type stuff, because I hate steady-state cardio with a passion. I said that I can get on board with Krista's recommendation of two or three 20-30 minute cardio sessions a week (meaning cardio as she defines it, not steady-state) BUT I have not found even that much to be necessary for fat loss, and I know of many people who have had the same experience as I have.
So in other words...what you are writing is based largely on your personal opinion - you don't like cardio thus you don't think it's necessary...along with what I call (in honor of Andy Garcia's character in Ocean's Eleven) the "you know a guy..." ancedotal evidence.

While I agree Krista's website is great and has a lot of valuable information...she doesn't really focus on fat loss or the plight of being severely obese. (I also get the distinct impression that she's not a fan of cardio herself just in reading her articles)

In fact, why don't we just get AWAY from the term CARDIO for awhile and go old school...I'm going to call it "Aerobic exercise" right now.

According to the American College of Sports Medicine guidelines for healthy aerobic activity- the recommendations are to exercise three to five days a week for 30-45 minutes with a 5-10 minute warmup beforehand and a 5-10 minute cooldown afterwards - for weight loss, a minimum of 30 minutes of aerobics 5x a week is recommended.

The 2005 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommends:

Quote:
Engage in regular physical activity and reduce sedentary activities to promote health, psychological well-being, and a healthy body weight.

To reduce the risk of chronic disease in adulthood: Engage in at least 30 minutes of moderate-intensity physical activity, above usual activity, at work or home on most days of the week.

For most people, greater health benefits can be obtained by engaging in physical activity of more vigorous intensity or longer duration.

To help manage body weight and prevent gradual, unhealthy body weight gain in adulthood: Engage in approximately 60 minutes of moderate- to vigorous-intensity activity on most days of the week while not exceeding caloric intake requirements.

To sustain weight loss in adulthood: Participate in at least 60 to 90 minutes of daily moderate-intensity physical activity while not exceeding caloric intake requirements. Some people may need to consult with a healthcare provider before participating in this level of activity.
The book Thin for Life by Anne Fletcher (written based on interviews with weight loss 'masters' who have kept off 30 pounds or more for at least five years) which was discussed earlier this year in our Maintainers Forum, shows that the "masters" did a lot of aerobic exercise to get the weight off, and they do a lot still to maintain that weight. If you review the thread on the chapter regarding exercise in the Maintainers Forum, you'll find that just about everyone who responded (most of whom are maintainers) is doing some sort of aerobic activity pretty much on a daily basis.

I do EMPHATICALLY agree (as you can see by many of my past posts) that everyone should find an aerobic activity (preferably more than one!) that they truly enjoy doing. "Aerobic exercise" doesn't have to mean slogging on the treadmill...try a Spinning class, or a NIA Dance class...go running in the rain...put on those Rollerblades and go out for some fresh air...there are SO many different types of activities that get your heart pounding and chew up the calories, one is bound to find SOMETHING they enjoy, IMO!
MrsJim is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 04:10 PM   #35  
I choose
 
ShannonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 68

Default

Quote:
I'm baffled by your implication that trainers are handing out what they know to be erroneous advice about cardio.
You're right. No halfway honest person who is in the business of helping others would deliberately give out bad advice. I should have said that the PTs don't know they're giving out advice that is at best, unnecessary, and at worst, counterproductive.

Quote:
And is it only the 'elite' trainers who advise their clients not to do cardio?
Not what I said and not what I meant. By "elite" I mean competitive athletes and the people who train them.

Quote:
The rest of us are hacks and posers?
Meg, the truth is that if I lived near you, I would love to hire you as my PT. You post some very impressive lift numbers and your weight loss accomplishments are truly inspirational. But I would fight you tooth and nail on your cardio recommendations every step of the way - so I guess it's a good thing I can't hire you.

Quote:
Certainly there are BB boards where little or no cardio is advocated.
I never visit those and they're not where I got my information, for whatever that's worth.

Quote:
cardio is generally accepted as necessary for fat loss for most people. Every PT course teaches that, the seminars and workshops I've attended teach that, my personal experience teaches me that, and so does my experience with clients.
"Generally accepted" does not equal right, regardless of how many times it's shouted from the rooftops. It's as simple as that.

Quote:
I don't have 'dirty little secrets' that I keep from my clients to try to hold them back from success.
I apologize for giving the impression that I thought you would do that. It was the farthest thing from my mind. There are some PTs, however, who are so afraid to try anything beyond what's "generally accepted" that their clients don't get the most effective information.

Quote:
So in other words...what you are writing is based largely on your personal opinion - you don't like cardio thus you don't think it's necessary...along with what I call (in honor of Andy Garcia's character in Ocean's Eleven) the "you know a guy..." ancedotal evidence.
Absolutely not, and I resent that implication. I can work up a list of names and email addresses for you if you like, and you can check these people's qualifications for yourself. And your if-then statement is not at all what I implied in my previous posts. It's true I don't like cardio, but that would never have stopped me from doing it IF it were as effective as weight training for fat loss. But...it isn't. My realization of this was not related to my dislike for cardio. I was determined to lose weight and didn't care what it took - cardio or whatever.

And I know the current recommendations. I guess we're just going around in circles at this point. See above re: "generally accepted" not being equal to right.

Last edited by ShannonM; 12-01-2005 at 04:16 PM.
ShannonM is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 04:30 PM   #36  
Senior Member
 
RobertW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Washington Heights, NYC
Posts: 506

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShannonM
And once again, Robert says in two sentences what I had to say in a book.
It is because of my scientific training. Journals CHARGE scientists by the page.

What is the benefit of doing lots of cardio for me (at this point in time)? My basal metabolic rate is ~4,200Cal/day and I can get by on a strict diet of 1,500 Cal/day so I don't need it to speed up my weight loss. 5# in a week is plenty; nobody is going to give me $250,000 for being the "Biggest Loser".

On the minus side conventional cardio will result in a loss of lean bodymass, which combined with some yo-yo dieting could easily leave you worse off (in terms of fat %) then when you started. Losing lean bodymass is common problem among dieters.

I would rather lose weight more slowly and hang onto my hard won muscle, than risk ending up "skinny-fat" or worse yet fatter than I was when I started.
RobertW is offline  
Old 12-02-2005, 01:56 PM   #37  
Senior Member
 
RobertW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Washington Heights, NYC
Posts: 506

Default

I was just wondering about how many calories are in a pound of muscle and I came up with the following:

1g of protein=4cal, and muscle is ~75% water. If we assume that muscle is basicaly all protein and water we get 1,000 Cal/ kg of muscle or 450 Cal/#! A pound of fat contains 3,500 Cal.

So losing a # of muscle is ~7 times as easy as losing a pound of fat! OTOH, gaining a pound of muscle would take a very modest surplus of calories. No need to pig out when bulking up. Even 100 extra calories of protein/day is probably enough.

This probably explains the incredible pace of weightloss experienced by gastric bypass patients. It doesn't take a big calorie deficit to drop a lot of muscle.
RobertW is offline  
Old 12-02-2005, 02:29 PM   #38  
Meg
Senior Member
 
Meg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 8,974

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertW
I was just wondering about how many calories are in a pound of muscle and I came up with the following:

1g of protein=4cal, and muscle is ~75% water. If we assume that muscle is basicaly all protein and water we get 1,000 Cal/ kg of muscle or 450 Cal/#! A pound of fat contains 3,500 Cal.

So losing a # of muscle is ~7 times as easy as losing a pound of fat! OTOH, gaining a pound of muscle would take a very modest surplus of calories. No need to pig out when bulking up. Even 100 extra calories of protein/day is probably enough.

This probably explains the incredible pace of weightloss experienced by gastric bypass patients. It doesn't take a big calorie deficit to drop a lot of muscle.
Robert, I'm sorry but I'm afraid that your logic is a tad faulty. You're assuming that the body doesn't distinguish between fat and muscle for energy storage and utilization.

It doesn't really matter how many calories are in a pound of muscle. Fat, not muscle, is the body's system for storing excess calories. Ah, if only excess calories were stored as muscle - ! But they're not. Excess calories, whether from protein, fat, or carbs, are stored as fat.

When you create a calorie deficit in your body, through diet and exercise, your body is forced to utilize its stored energy supply, which is the calories it put away as fat when you were in a calorie surplus. Your body doesn't indiscriminately burn off muscle at the same time as fat - it's evolutionarily adapted to store fat in times of surplus and burn fat in times of famine.

Building muscle takes more than eating 100 extra calories a day, of course. Otherwise we could skip the gym and just eat and voila - we'd have bulging biceps and huge pecs. Those 100 extra calories per day are going to be stored as fat if they're more than your body needs to function.

The fast weight loss experienced by gastric bypass patients is due to the enormous calorie deficit that is created in the months after surgery due to forced calorie restriction and malabsorption. WLS patients generally eat less than 1000 calories per day for the first year or so after surgery. Their pace of weight loss slows as their calorie intake increases in the second year.

If you take a minute and think it through, you'll realize that your statement that losing a pound of muscle is seven times easier than losing a pound of fat really isn't supported by science or logic.
Meg is offline  
Old 12-02-2005, 04:00 PM   #39  
Senior Member
 
RobertW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Washington Heights, NYC
Posts: 506

Default

It takes one seventh the calorie deficit to lose a pound of muscle vs. a pound of fat. Whether or not you burn fat or muscle when a calorie deficit is incurred depends upon your physiological state, but a small caloric deficit can result in a big weight loss if you are losing muscle. The type and intensity of the exercise you perform will influence whether you are burning muscle or fat. If you are far from your ideal bodyfat % you will probably lose mainly fat regardless.
RobertW is offline  
Old 12-02-2005, 07:36 PM   #40  
Uber-Moderator!!
 
MrsJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Silicon Valley, California
Posts: 5,020

Default OTHER reasons to add cardio...

...other than losing weight or fat that is...

(sometimes we tend to get hung up with the 'lose weight' benefit of exercise...what about the OTHER benefits?)

There IS more to consider in the benefits of aerobic cardiovascular exercise (or for that matter, anaerobic exercise such as weight training) than just fitting into a smaller size of jeans. As I've gotten older (my early-to-mid 40's) I've become more aware of the OTHER benefits of cardiovascular exercise.

I have two strikes against me: A history of heart problems and high blood pressure on my father's side of the family (all 7 siblings have had heart 'issues' including my dad), and a history of breast and cervical cancers on my mom's side (including my mother herself, who is a breast cancer survivor). In addition, I would rather not be one of the unfortunate sufferers of osteoporosis and other debilitating 'aging' diseases.

Well guess what - the LWL trinity of nutrition, weights and CARDIO helps to prevent cancer.

As far as reducing the risk of heart attacks and heart problems - The American Heart Association HIGHLY endorses regular aerobic exercise (moderate or vigorous) to keep your heart healthy, and has a slew of suggestions and tools on their website.

Here are some additional benefits of aerobics...

· Increased maximal oxygen consumption (VO2max)
· Improvement in cardiovascular/cardiorespiratory function(heart and lungs)
· Increased maximal cardiac output (amount of blood pumped every minute)
· Increased maximal stroke volume (amount of blood pumped with each beat)
· Increased blood volume and ability to carry oxygen
· Reduced workload on the heart (myocardial oxygen consumption) for any given submaximal exercise intensity
· Increased blood supply to the muscles and ability to use oxygen
· Lower heart rate and blood pressure at any level of submaximal exercise
· Increased threshold for lactic acid accumulation
· Lower resting systolic and diastolic blood pressure in people with high blood pressure
· Increased HDL Cholesterol (the good cholesterol). Regular exercise raises the level of "good" cholesterol and lowers the level of the "bad" cholesterol.
· Decreased blood triglycerides
· Reduced body fat and weight control
· Improved glucose tolerance and reduced insulin resistance, reducing the risk of diabetes
· Weight bearing exercises help fight osteoporosis. Regular exercise delays bone loss and promotes bone formation.


And strength training benefits...

· Increased muscular strength
· Increased strength of tendons and ligaments
· Potentially improves flexibility (range of motion of joints)
· Reduced body fat and increased lean body mass (muscle mass)
· Potentially decreases resting systolic and diastolic blood pressure
· Improved glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity
· Improved strength, balance, and functional ability in older adults

Daily physical activity can help prevent heart disease and stroke by strengthening your heart muscle, lowering your blood pressure, raising your high-density lipoprotein (HDL) levels (good cholesterol) and lowering low-density lipoprotein (LDL) levels (bad cholesterol), improving blood flow, and increasing your heart's working capacity.

Regular physical activity can reduce blood pressure in those with high blood pressure levels. Physical activity also reduces body fat, which is associated with HBP.

By reducing body fat, physical activity can help to prevent and control noninsulin-dependant diabetes.

Physical activity helps to reduce body fat by building or preserving muscle mass and improving the body's ability to use calories. Combined with proper nutrition, physical activity can help control weight and prevent obesity, a major risk factor for many diseases.

By increasing muscle strength and endurance and improving flexibility and posture, regular exercise helps to prevent back pain.

Regular weight-bearing exercise promotes bone formation and may prevent many forms of bone loss associated with aging such as Osteoporosis.

Regular physical activity can improve your mood and the way you feel about yourself. Researchers also have found that exercise is likely to reduce depression and anxiety and help you to better manage stress.

Regular exercise helps keep joints flexible and helps build muscle to support the joint, reducing arthritis symptoms.

Exercisers feel sick almost 30% less often than non-exercisers.
MrsJim is offline  
Old 12-02-2005, 09:16 PM   #41  
Old Cackler
 
jiffypop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: northern New Jersey
Posts: 7,525

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertW
I was just wondering about how many calories are in a pound of muscle and I came up with the following:

1g of protein=4cal, and muscle is ~75% water. If we assume that muscle is basicaly all protein and water we get 1,000 Cal/ kg of muscle or 450 Cal/#! A pound of fat contains 3,500 Cal.

So losing a # of muscle is ~7 times as easy as losing a pound of fat! OTOH, gaining a pound of muscle would take a very modest surplus of calories. No need to pig out when bulking up. Even 100 extra calories of protein/day is probably enough.

This probably explains the incredible pace of weightloss experienced by gastric bypass patients. It doesn't take a big calorie deficit to drop a lot of muscle.
HUH???? what accounts for the tremendous rapid weight loss in MOST gastric bypass patients from my experience - and literature searches - and conversations with doctors and nurses and the few dieticians who actually understand what's going on - is because we are hard-pressed to consume 400-500 calories a day at first. and because we can consume so little, the standard of care is that we focus almost exclusively on protein for awhile in order to maintain our body systems - including muscle - while we're in essentially starvation mode.

if we meet our protein goals for the first 2-3 months, we've done a GREAT job. after we heal, the instructions most of us receive state that we MUST do at least 30 minutes of cardio - in whatever form we can tolerate - DAILY. let's face it, if we qualify for the surgery, we're already lugging around enough weight that weight training can be delayed. there's a theory out there that one of the reasons we gain enough weight to qualify for the surgery is because we all have insulin resistance. cardio helps manage this by increasing insulin receptor activity on the cellular level.

trust me, the type, pace and intensity of the exercise vary with each person's physical condition.

weight training comes later, but it does come. not only are we at a very high risk of osteoporosis, many of us also lose large amounts of muscle. in fact, the muscle loss is such an issue that there's a major clinical trial going on at St Luke's Roosevelt in NYC to see if weight training helps [of course it does - but they need to demonstrate it clinically].

the muscle loss seen in us is no different from the muscle loss often seen in people who lost lots of weight the old fashioned way. but it's more dramatic because we lose so much so fast.

We need to do both not only as part of developing a healthy lifestyle, but also to maximise AND MAINTAIN the weight loss

when i've been sidelined due to knee injuries [that darn dog is strong and pulls me off my feet sometimes!], i've gained 20 pounds. once i start exercising again, the cardio [in the form of hiking or walking] drops my weight dramatically. i can't maintain - or maximise - any weight loss without BOTH cardio and weight training.

but when i'm pressed for time, i can delay the weight training. i can't manage my weight without the cardio. i just can't.

on a side note, i ran into one of the physical therapists at the gym, and he said that he'd given up on doing just weight training. he said that he'd tried to maintain his weight doing the weights alone without cardio, no matter what his colleagues said [his words - not mine!], but it didn't work.

i'm wondering, robert, if what you're seeing is perhaps more the result of your MALENESS than of right or wrong ways to do things. men have more muscle, and they lose weight more quickly than we women [drat drat double drat].

my trainer - whom i torture regularly - keeps track of both my cardio and weight training. he recommends lifting before cardio [something about the glycogen storage and fat burning] - but he doesn't insist on it, realizing that doing the cardio at ANY time is what's most important.
jiffypop is offline  
Old 12-03-2005, 08:10 AM   #42  
Senior Member
 
RobertW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Washington Heights, NYC
Posts: 506

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiffypop
HUH???? what accounts for the tremendous rapid weight loss in MOST gastric bypass patients from my experience - and literature searches - and conversations with doctors and nurses and the few dieticians who actually understand what's going on - is because we are hard-pressed to consume 400-500 calories a day at first. and because we can consume so little, the standard of care is that we focus almost exclusively on protein for awhile in order to maintain our body systems - including muscle - while we're in essentially starvation mode.

if we meet our protein goals for the first 2-3 months, we've done a GREAT job. after we heal, the instructions most of us receive state that we MUST do at least 30 minutes of cardio - in whatever form we can tolerate - DAILY. let's face it, if we qualify for the surgery, we're already lugging around enough weight that weight training can be delayed. there's a theory out there that one of the reasons we gain enough weight to qualify for the surgery is because we all have insulin resistance. cardio helps manage this by increasing insulin receptor activity on the cellular level.

trust me, the type, pace and intensity of the exercise vary with each person's physical condition.

weight training comes later, but it does come. not only are we at a very high risk of osteoporosis, many of us also lose large amounts of muscle. in fact, the muscle loss is such an issue that there's a major clinical trial going on at St Luke's Roosevelt in NYC to see if weight training helps [of course it does - but they need to demonstrate it clinically].

the muscle loss seen in us is no different from the muscle loss often seen in people who lost lots of weight the old fashioned way. but it's more dramatic because we lose so much so fast.

We need to do both not only as part of developing a healthy lifestyle, but also to maximise AND MAINTAIN the weight loss

when i've been sidelined due to knee injuries [that darn dog is strong and pulls me off my feet sometimes!], i've gained 20 pounds. once i start exercising again, the cardio [in the form of hiking or walking] drops my weight dramatically. i can't maintain - or maximise - any weight loss without BOTH cardio and weight training.

but when i'm pressed for time, i can delay the weight training. i can't manage my weight without the cardio. i just can't.

.



my trainer - whom i torture regularly - keeps track of both my cardio and weight training. he recommends lifting before cardio [something about the glycogen storage and fat burning] - but he doesn't insist on it, realizing that doing the cardio at ANY time is what's most important.
Congrats on your weight loss. That is incredible accomplishment, however you achieved it, and yes we are different enough that what works best for me will not be what is best for you.

What I was thinking about above was how someone I know who did not have the procedure but followed the "gastric bypass" diet was able to lose 1.5#/day for such a long period of time. His maintainance would have to be ~6,000 Cal/day to drop that much fat, but if 25% (which I think is typical for gastric bypass patients) is muscle the number becomes alot more reasonable (deficit of ~-4,000 Cal). I am hard pressed to drop more than 3/4# of a pound of weight in a day for a prolonged length of time, but if that is almost all fat I am doing as well as I can expect too.

Moving period will help you hold onto muscle, but more intense exercise should protect more of your hard earned muscle.

On my end, I am planning to drop 20# using some fairly extreme dieting this month (11,000 Cal/ week), but I am trying to do so with as little muscle loss as possible.
Quote:
i'm wondering, robert, if what you're seeing is perhaps more the result of your MALENESS than of right or wrong ways to do things. men have more muscle, and they lose weight more quickly than we women [drat drat double drat].
More my goal than anything else. If I wanted to look like Lou Reed rather than Lou Ferrigno I would put cardio ahead of weight training. Where most men tend to go wrong is they don't diet severely enough. Women, IMHO, are better about the dieting but not as good about the weight training.

Quote:
on a side note, i ran into one of the physical therapists at the gym, and he said that he'd given up on doing just weight training. he said that he'd tried to maintain his weight doing the weights alone without cardio, no matter what his colleagues said [his words - not mine!], but it didn't work
Tell him to eat less.
RobertW is offline  
Old 12-03-2005, 10:24 AM   #43  
I choose
 
ShannonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 68

Default

Quote:
i'm wondering, robert, if what you're seeing is perhaps more the result of your MALENESS than of right or wrong ways to do things. men have more muscle, and they lose weight more quickly than we women [drat drat double drat].
NO. It's not just men who lose this way.

I'm a woman and I am (apparently) the opposite of you, jiffypop, in that cardio screws up my weight loss every. single. time. The moment I cut it back or eliminate it completely, I start losing weight again. For the first six months I was losing weight, I did cardio and weight training (and cleaned up my eating, of course) and lost weight at a slow pace. Then on a whim, I cut back the cardio and upped the intensity of my lifting...and BAM! Pounds and inches started flying off. Cardio is fine for me for maintenance, and I certainly enjoy a nice little jog every now and then. But if I do too much of it, it invariably stalls my weight loss.

Quote:
men have more muscle, and they lose weight more quickly than we women
Leaving the cardio issue aside for a moment - you just offered the single best argument I've ever heard for women to hit the iron as hard as they possibly can. Muscle burns fat; ergo, the more of it you have, the more fat you burn. Women need as much help in this area as we can get. If I'm correctly interpreting your statement, you're saying that the reason men lose weight faster is because they have more muscle. Well, muscle gain is not the sole province of men, is it?

We have to fight much, much harder than they do for every ounce of muscle we gain (I know I do, anyway). But the payoff in terms of more efficient fat loss has been immeasurable.

By the way - just as it's true that more muscle burns more fat, more muscle will allow a person to eat much more at a maintenance level than most people realize. Even now, as I'm losing the last little bit, I'm amazed at how much junk I can eat and not gain weight. (Muscle gain and the resultant amped-up metabolism is the only possible explanation for this - I never had a fast metabolism before, and when I was diagnosed with PCOS, insulin resistance, and pre-diabetes a few years ago, the damn thing pretty much came to a grinding halt. )

Quote:
Tell him to eat less.
Yep...people tend to forget about this part...I'd bet dollars to doughnuts (mmm...doughnuts) that he's not cutting enough calories.
ShannonM is offline  
Old 12-03-2005, 12:53 PM   #44  
Mel
Senior Member
 
Mel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 6,963

Default

Hello I'm, a bit late to the party here but couldn't resist putting in my two cents.

This whole thread indicates one overriding principle: rather than arguing about whether cardio is good or bad, counterproductive or healthy, what we've established is that we are all different: we are are all an experiment of one.

Shannon, you say that cardio stalls your weightloss. Meg can't lose or maintain without a lot of cardio. While I think Meg is more typical of most women, Shannon certainly isn't alone. A former member of this board couldn't lose fat or gain muscle doing cardio or eating what is considered a normal caloric deficit for her weight. When she dropped the cardio and upped her calories (clean of course!) to over 2000, she dropped fat and gained muscle. I'm approximately the same size and similar age, and would be a blimp in no time on that regimen.

I can maintain with minimal cardio (3-4 times a week for 20 minutes) but don't dare stop the lifting. I lift a heavy five day split and I have no intention of sacrificing my muscle or strength gains. But that muscle does not let me eat a whole lot more! There is no way that 99% of women will gain enough muscle naturally to do no cardio and eat mindlessly. Please notice that the original poster has not really cleaned up her nutrition. Shannon, having PCOS naturally puts more muscle on you than most women. For a woman to put on 10 additional pounds of lean muscle tissue naturally is nearly miraculous. Those 10 pounds of muscle only allow her to eat approximately an additional 250 calories a day.

We all know that it's possible to lose weight doing no exercise at all- heck, you can lose weight on a diet of tootsie rolls and coffee! You'll feel awful and look worse, but you'll lose. Diet is key. I've seen plenty of people who work hard in the gym year after year, doing everything right in the gym, but not willing to make the food lifestyle changes required to actually lean down. They are strong, healthy and well muscled, but carry more fat than they would like. Why? nutrition. Can't give up the nightly drink, chocolate, ice cream...pick your poison. My boss is a competitive bodybuilder who at age 57, maintains his bf at 7% off season and drops to 4% for competitions. He has never done cardio, and never will. Food has never been an issue for him (other than how to eat enough times during the day to maintain his muscle mass!) so he can accomplish this all by diet manipulation.

A woman starting out with a body fat level of anything over 28% or so, probably cannot rely on weight training and diet alone. To start with, she's probably not in good enough condition to lift heavy and frequently enough to make much of an impact on weightloss. Trainers don't withhold information; what would be the point? The only way to keep clients and have their good reviews bring new clients is to help them succeed, and as fast as possible. Not many women want to be powerlifters or bodybuilders. I do, Shannon does...but we are the minority. More often, I have to assure new clients that there is no way that they are going to have large defined muscles because they find the look repulsive. Little do they know how hard it is to achieve!

Losing muscle is pretty much inevitable when leaning down. That's why most female competitors eat huge quantities of very lean protein and complex carbs pre-comp, and do LOTS of cardio. The food feeds the muscles, the cardio burns the fat. A very few do burn significant amounts of muscle; I have one competitor who I've banned from the step-master and treadmills. She can burn off a pound of muscle without any fat, so no cardio for her. Lift heavy, eat clean. But we're talking about people with body fat under 12% for women and 8% for men. How many 3FC members fall into that category? I'd venture zero. The cardio/no cardio, slow state vs. HIIT arguements just don't really matter if you are 40% fat. T-Mag and ABCbodybuilding .com are not aimed at overweight women whose main reason for going to the gym is to get fitter and lose some fat!

I'm going to close this thread with the final words: Do what works for you! We can all find an article or forum entry to counter anything that someone else posts.

Mel
Mel is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:15 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.