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Old 06-08-2014, 06:00 PM   #91  
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I know I said I wouldn't post but just this quick note. Addiction, or not I have no horse in that race.

Carbs make many people hungry. Physical, human response, regardless of emotion, upbringing, mental state, stress, whatever. Well known, common response. Insulin produced, then blood sugar drops, hungry again. Especially if eating high glycemic index carbs. Overwhelmed me, overwhelms many. Hence obesity explosion. Some are carb tolerant.

But if you are overweight, high insulin, low HDL, high triglycerides markers like these good chance you are carb intolerant.

Can you power through and lose weight on low fat high carb? Perhaps, but most don't.

But there is a very excellent chance on high fat low carb you will have more success and it will be infinitely easier after a 2 to 4 week transition period to 'reawaken' fat burning machinery.

This is a 2 hour video, amazing, but dense. If you forward to exactly one hour some very good stuff.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=y...&v=fuj6nxCDBZ0

Last edited by diamondgeog; 06-08-2014 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:08 PM   #92  
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freelancemomma If you don't mind me asking, how did you kick the smoking habit, if you did kick it?
As I've described elsewhere on this board, I never fully quit. (I don't do "never again" very well.) In the hope of finding a good balance between my wish to stay healthy and my wish to experience smoking, I've put very firm limits on the practice. Here's my self-imposed rule: I only smoke when I'm on a business trip that requires one or more nights away from my home. (I go on about 5 or 6 such trips per year.)

I've had this rule in place for over 10 years. I slipped up on a couple of occasions (i.e., continuing to smoke for a week or so after returning home), but that's it. Overall the system works very well.

"Argue for your limitations and they're yours," goes the old saying. I prefer to argue for what's possible. By believing that I CAN moderate my eating, drinking and smoking, I think I'm helping to fulfill these prophecies. There are limits to this philosophy, of course. I could argue that I'll skate in the next Olympics until I'm blue in the face, but it's so far beyond my capacity (never mind my age) that it amounts to a fairy tale.

And no, I'm not naturally inclined toward moderation. Quite the opposite -- I'm inclined toward excess and extremes. (Just one of many examples: One day in my early 20s, on a dare by my then-boyfriend, I ate 9,000 calories in one day.)

F.

Last edited by freelancemomma; 06-08-2014 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:14 PM   #93  
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The difference between addicts and nonaddicts are that addicts have (or see) more reasons to use, than not to. Addiction treatment is about showing or giving the addict reasons not to.
In this respect we agree entirely. In the end we're just arguing semantics. What you call addiction, I call a conscious or subconscious cost-benefit analysis.

F.
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:34 PM   #94  
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And no, I'm not naturally inclined toward moderation. Quite the opposite -- I'm inclined toward excess and extremes. (Just one of many examples: One day in my early 20s, on a dare by my then-boyfriend, I ate 9,000 calories in one day.)

F.
LOL, i could so do this (eat 9,000 cals in a day) Actually it's not that funny and i wish for all the world i could feel full on a normal amount of food like a "normal" person (normal to me is a person that's not addicted -- or whatever term floats your boat--to food)
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:12 PM   #95  
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In this respect we agree entirely. In the end we're just arguing semantics. What you call addiction, I call a conscious or subconscious cost-benefit analysis.

F.

I think it's far more than semantics. I believe that the very real phenomenon of addiction (a multi-faceted matter of genetic, physiological, social, emotional, cultural, educational, and psychological factors). The combined effects that comprise addiction interfere with the ability of an individual to execute cost-benefit analysis successfully without herculean effort and/or assistance - the rewards of abuse are magnified and the pain of negative consequences numbed.

There's rather compelling evidence that in eating disorders, substance abuse, hoarding, shopping addiction, compulsive gambling... the affected individuals get et a bigger payoff for use than "normals." The benefits not only ouweigh the costs numerically, the positive reward experiences are perceived as being more intence (often measureably so)

It isn't entirely a decision making problem. The rewards are simply inherently bigger, more intense, and more numerable, so the cost-benefit analysis is inherently swayed.

One of the most difficult things for me (and my non-food addicted family) to understand was that food is a stronger reward for me than for "normal" folk.

I do not understand the appeal of alcohol or drugs, even recreationally. I get absolutely nothing from them (except sleepiness). The physiological effects aren't pleasant to me at all, not in the least. Gambling isn't really fun for me, either. Don't get it. I'm not thrill seeker ot adrenaline junkie, either.

Food however, has been a passionate interest, extraordinarily pleasureable (almost orgasmic) experience for me, for as long as I can remember.

I didn't choose to enjoy food more than the average bear, nor did I choose to get less pleasure out of things other people seem to enjoy a lot more than I do.

I will never drink to excess, because there's no point to it. Some foods provide such an incredible high for me, that it becomes nearly impossible to see the long-term costs. The only way for me to see the costs (in order to be able to weigh costs and benefits rationally) is to avoid the high that impairs my judgement.

Not everyone experiences such judgement impairment, and they are not addicts.

No one would dream of suggesting moderate use of heroine, because we know the intense euphoria will impair rational judgement.

What we don't seem to understand or fully grasp is that the effects (objectively and subjectively) of drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, shopping, foods.... are not universal, they are quantitatively and qualitatively different.

I get no thrill whatsoever from alcohol, not even a pleasant buzz. There is no question of moderation, because there is absolutely no reason for me to drink. While the experience of intensely rich foods rival and sometimes surpass that of sex and even orgasm.

How many people can say that food is better than good sex?

"Better than sex" often seems to be the benchmark of addiction, and I believe that is the component of addiction that is outside of a persons control.

I can control what I eat, but I cannot control how much I enjoy certain foods. And for some foods, the enjoyment is so unbelievably intense that it blots out all the negative consequences.

When I'm using sugar, especially in combination with fat and salt, the benefits FAR outweigh the costs, because the high really is that incredibly awesome. Death itself doesn't seem like too high a price.

The only time the risks outweigh the benefits is when I am no longer under the influence.

I believe THAT is what makes addiction - the factors that magnify the benefits to the point that the risks cannot compete, no matter how dire those risks are.

I think it's the abnormally magnified reward response that is the hallmark (if not the very nature) of addiction.

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Old 06-08-2014, 11:05 PM   #96  
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The rewards are simply inherently bigger, more intense, and more numerable, so the cost-benefit analysis is inherently swayed..
I agree that the rewards of a behaviour are greater for some than for others. While this certainly affects the decision-making process, I don't think it invalidates the cost-benefit analysis. (Rhetorical example: If I enjoy food 10 times more than my neighbour, it stands to reason that I'll be willing to sacrifice some degree of health for the pleasure of eating my favourite foods, while my neighbour would likely make a different choice. That doesn't make my decision irrational.)

It's possible that some people can become so dependent on a form of short-term pleasure that they become incapable of conducting a truly rational cost-benefit analysis. We can agree to call that addiction. But I think a lot of us are more rational than the addiction model gives us credit for, even when we make so-called poor choices. When Jean Paul Sartre said "A life without smoking wouldn't be worthwhile to me," was it the talk of an addict or of a rational man who valued pleasure above health?

F.

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Old 06-12-2014, 09:33 AM   #97  
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Amen. If you don't mind my asking, how long did it take you to lose the love of sugar sweets like cake? Thanks!
I can't really say how long it took because it happened so long ago. I was dieting and staying away from sweets for a long time and then one day I ate some and realized it tasted sickeningly sweet to me. When I was finally diagnosed with type 2 Diabetes it made me stop and think that maybe that's why I could no longer stand the taste of "sweet." I think I was diabetic for a while before it was diagnosed.

And Nelie, although I follow low carb, I think that the period of time during which I abstained from sweets and therefore lost my taste for them was when I was calorie counting. I didn't mean that low carb was the only way for that to happen. I am not trying to defend low carb as the only way, just the only way for me, and I think that's probably because of my diabetes. I know that calorie counters can fit cake, pie, ice cream into their plan and still lose weight, but my point was directed toward those who post "I was doing so good but then there was a party with cake (or cookies etc) and I just couldn't resist them and went off plan." Apparently they love sweets, but wish they could stay away from them. So I'm saying if you stay away from them long enough your tastes can change and they no longer have the appeal. I don't know if that would work for everyone, I just know that it worked for me, and several other people have posted that it has worked for them, too. If a person wants to be able to eat sweets once in a while I'm fine with that. But if it's going to be a trigger for them, it's worth a try.

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Old 06-12-2014, 10:46 AM   #98  
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I totally understand. Although I can fit sweets into my plan, sweets are definitely a rarity. I've definitely learned that I can have a bite here or there and be fine because the restriction isn't playing against me mentally. I used to have problems where I'd allow myself something (like bread) and then it'd fall to pieces. Now I'm at a point where I can say no I don't want bread or yes I want a piece and I'm good.
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:52 AM   #99  
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I can't really say how long it took because it happened so long ago. I was dieting and staying away from sweets for a long time and then one day I ate some and realized it tasted sickeningly sweet to me. When I was finally diagnosed with type 2 Diabetes it made me stop and think that maybe that's why I could no longer stand the taste of "sweet." I think I was diabetic for a while before it was diagnosed.
Thanks wannabehealthy!
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Old 06-12-2014, 06:54 PM   #100  
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When Jean Paul Sartre said "A life without smoking wouldn't be worthwhile to me," was it the talk of an addict or of a rational man who valued pleasure above health?
I sort of think it may be irrational to value pleasure above health. But i would love to hear a philosopher argue the case either way.

I say this because if JPS did give it up, he would find that life was indeed fine and worth living in fact better as a non-smoker. As a long time quitter, and someone who formerly loved to smoke a lot and said things of that kind, i know that i no longer feel as i did and believe it was just a way or rationalising my actions.


I don't think philosophers and rational people are immune to irrationality.

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