3 Fat Chicks on a Diet Weight Loss Community  

Go Back   3 Fat Chicks on a Diet Weight Loss Community > Support Forum > Weight Loss Support

Weight Loss Support Give and get support here!

What makes food an addiction

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-08-2014, 03:10 PM   #91
Senior Member
 
Wannabeskinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,454

S/C/G: 215/188/150

Height: 5'4"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaplods View Post
I am responding to your actual words, not those I put there. How is this not a denial?






Yes, you did say:




... but this is not acknowledging that food addiction is a true experience. This is like saying " If it helps you to believe in fairies, I won't argue with you.


Unlike fairies, there's quite a lot of legitimate evidence that food addiction is not an imaginary construct, which is what you seem to have implied.
I said those things because they are applicable to me. If you know what is true for you why do you need me to validate it? If there is help for addiction out there then you should seek that out. We all have to break out of our own prisons.

I believe in fairies.
__________________


Fat isn't a feeling

"Food is not the enemy. Hunger is a sign of life and vitality." - Caroline Haagen from The F- it Diet

Last edited by Wannabeskinny : 06-08-2014 at 03:11 PM.
Wannabeskinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 04:17 PM   #92
Senior Member
 
kaplods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wausau, WI
Posts: 13,280

S/C/G: SW:394/310/180

Height: 5'6"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freelancemomma View Post
This led me to understand that what we call addiction actually involves a lot more choice than we think.

I'm not the only educated person who thinks this way. Several doctors and researchers have written polemical books or papers questioning the construct of addiction.

F.

I agree entirely that addiction, at every step, is entirely about choices. I don't believe the tendency toward addictive behavior patterns is a choice, but every single indulgence in the destructive behavior is a choice, even when it doesn't feel like it.

The core of addiction treatment is focused on assisting the addict make different choices.

Addiction isn't about the inability to choose, it's about there being more reasons to use, than not to.

Addiction recovery is about having more reasons to change than reasons to continue using.


Sometimes people need help finding those reasons and implementing changes. Addiction treatment is about helping people see and make the choices - and in some cases making the choice easier, either by increasing the punishments for (ab)use, or by increasing the rewards for abstinnce or appropriate use.

If it was generally believed that addicts had no control over their choices, there would be no point to addiction treatment.

The difference between addicts and nonaddicts are that addicts have (or see) more reasons to use, than not to. Addiction treatment is about showing or giving the addict reasons not to.

The rewards for abuse can be social, emotional, or physiological, and the rewards for change can be as well.

You can think of addiction as the need for assistance. Not "I cannot change," but instead, "I need help to change."

Unfortunately, in our culture, needing and asking for assistance (whether it be financial, social, emotional, or even medical) still carries a great deal of social dissaproval and even ostracism.

We value independence so highly that reaching out for help is seen as a contemptible sign of weakness.
__________________
My Etsy shop (currently closed for the summer)

http://www.dreamstormdesigns.etsy.com
etsy link by permission from 3fc! Want to add yours? Ask them!
kaplods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 06:00 PM   #93
diamondgeog
 
Posts: n/a

Default

I know I said I wouldn't post but just this quick note. Addiction, or not I have no horse in that race.

Carbs make many people hungry. Physical, human response, regardless of emotion, upbringing, mental state, stress, whatever. Well known, common response. Insulin produced, then blood sugar drops, hungry again. Especially if eating high glycemic index carbs. Overwhelmed me, overwhelms many. Hence obesity explosion. Some are carb tolerant.

But if you are overweight, high insulin, low HDL, high triglycerides markers like these good chance you are carb intolerant.

Can you power through and lose weight on low fat high carb? Perhaps, but most don't.

But there is a very excellent chance on high fat low carb you will have more success and it will be infinitely easier after a 2 to 4 week transition period to 'reawaken' fat burning machinery.

This is a 2 hour video, amazing, but dense. If you forward to exactly one hour some very good stuff.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=y...&v=fuj6nxCDBZ0

Last edited by diamondgeog : 06-08-2014 at 06:02 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 08:08 PM   #94
Senior Member
 
freelancemomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,077

S/C/G: 195/145/145

Height: 5'11"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mars735 View Post
freelancemomma If you don't mind me asking, how did you kick the smoking habit, if you did kick it?
As I've described elsewhere on this board, I never fully quit. (I don't do "never again" very well.) In the hope of finding a good balance between my wish to stay healthy and my wish to experience smoking, I've put very firm limits on the practice. Here's my self-imposed rule: I only smoke when I'm on a business trip that requires one or more nights away from my home. (I go on about 5 or 6 such trips per year.)

I've had this rule in place for over 10 years. I slipped up on a couple of occasions (i.e., continuing to smoke for a week or so after returning home), but that's it. Overall the system works very well.

"Argue for your limitations and they're yours," goes the old saying. I prefer to argue for what's possible. By believing that I CAN moderate my eating, drinking and smoking, I think I'm helping to fulfill these prophecies. There are limits to this philosophy, of course. I could argue that I'll skate in the next Olympics until I'm blue in the face, but it's so far beyond my capacity (never mind my age) that it amounts to a fairy tale.

And no, I'm not naturally inclined toward moderation. Quite the opposite -- I'm inclined toward excess and extremes. (Just one of many examples: One day in my early 20s, on a dare by my then-boyfriend, I ate 9,000 calories in one day.)

F.
__________________

Last edited by freelancemomma : 06-08-2014 at 08:18 PM.
freelancemomma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 08:14 PM   #95
Senior Member
 
freelancemomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,077

S/C/G: 195/145/145

Height: 5'11"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaplods View Post
The difference between addicts and nonaddicts are that addicts have (or see) more reasons to use, than not to. Addiction treatment is about showing or giving the addict reasons not to.
In this respect we agree entirely. In the end we're just arguing semantics. What you call addiction, I call a conscious or subconscious cost-benefit analysis.

F.
__________________
freelancemomma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 08:34 PM   #96
Senior Member
 
ReillyJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WA state
Posts: 546

S/C/G: 260/155/155

Height: 5'6"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freelancemomma View Post
And no, I'm not naturally inclined toward moderation. Quite the opposite -- I'm inclined toward excess and extremes. (Just one of many examples: One day in my early 20s, on a dare by my then-boyfriend, I ate 9,000 calories in one day.)

F.
LOL, i could so do this (eat 9,000 cals in a day) Actually it's not that funny and i wish for all the world i could feel full on a normal amount of food like a "normal" person (normal to me is a person that's not addicted -- or whatever term floats your boat--to food)
__________________
Susie
ReillyJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 09:12 PM   #97
Senior Member
 
kaplods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wausau, WI
Posts: 13,280

S/C/G: SW:394/310/180

Height: 5'6"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freelancemomma View Post
In this respect we agree entirely. In the end we're just arguing semantics. What you call addiction, I call a conscious or subconscious cost-benefit analysis.

F.

I think it's far more than semantics. I believe that the very real phenomenon of addiction (a multi-faceted matter of genetic, physiological, social, emotional, cultural, educational, and psychological factors). The combined effects that comprise addiction interfere with the ability of an individual to execute cost-benefit analysis successfully without herculean effort and/or assistance - the rewards of abuse are magnified and the pain of negative consequences numbed.

There's rather compelling evidence that in eating disorders, substance abuse, hoarding, shopping addiction, compulsive gambling... the affected individuals get et a bigger payoff for use than "normals." The benefits not only ouweigh the costs numerically, the positive reward experiences are perceived as being more intence (often measureably so)

It isn't entirely a decision making problem. The rewards are simply inherently bigger, more intense, and more numerable, so the cost-benefit analysis is inherently swayed.

One of the most difficult things for me (and my non-food addicted family) to understand was that food is a stronger reward for me than for "normal" folk.

I do not understand the appeal of alcohol or drugs, even recreationally. I get absolutely nothing from them (except sleepiness). The physiological effects aren't pleasant to me at all, not in the least. Gambling isn't really fun for me, either. Don't get it. I'm not thrill seeker ot adrenaline junkie, either.

Food however, has been a passionate interest, extraordinarily pleasureable (almost orgasmic) experience for me, for as long as I can remember.

I didn't choose to enjoy food more than the average bear, nor did I choose to get less pleasure out of things other people seem to enjoy a lot more than I do.

I will never drink to excess, because there's no point to it. Some foods provide such an incredible high for me, that it becomes nearly impossible to see the long-term costs. The only way for me to see the costs (in order to be able to weigh costs and benefits rationally) is to avoid the high that impairs my judgement.

Not everyone experiences such judgement impairment, and they are not addicts.

No one would dream of suggesting moderate use of heroine, because we know the intense euphoria will impair rational judgement.

What we don't seem to understand or fully grasp is that the effects (objectively and subjectively) of drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, shopping, foods.... are not universal, they are quantitatively and qualitatively different.

I get no thrill whatsoever from alcohol, not even a pleasant buzz. There is no question of moderation, because there is absolutely no reason for me to drink. While the experience of intensely rich foods rival and sometimes surpass that of sex and even orgasm.

How many people can say that food is better than good sex?

"Better than sex" often seems to be the benchmark of addiction, and I believe that is the component of addiction that is outside of a persons control.

I can control what I eat, but I cannot control how much I enjoy certain foods. And for some foods, the enjoyment is so unbelievably intense that it blots out all the negative consequences.

When I'm using sugar, especially in combination with fat and salt, the benefits FAR outweigh the costs, because the high really is that incredibly awesome. Death itself doesn't seem like too high a price.

The only time the risks outweigh the benefits is when I am no longer under the influence.

I believe THAT is what makes addiction - the factors that magnify the benefits to the point that the risks cannot compete, no matter how dire those risks are.

I think it's the abnormally magnified reward response that is the hallmark (if not the very nature) of addiction.
__________________
My Etsy shop (currently closed for the summer)

http://www.dreamstormdesigns.etsy.com
etsy link by permission from 3fc! Want to add yours? Ask them!

Last edited by kaplods : 06-08-2014 at 09:33 PM.
kaplods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 11:05 PM   #98
Senior Member
 
freelancemomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,077

S/C/G: 195/145/145

Height: 5'11"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaplods View Post
The rewards are simply inherently bigger, more intense, and more numerable, so the cost-benefit analysis is inherently swayed..
I agree that the rewards of a behaviour are greater for some than for others. While this certainly affects the decision-making process, I don't think it invalidates the cost-benefit analysis. (Rhetorical example: If I enjoy food 10 times more than my neighbour, it stands to reason that I'll be willing to sacrifice some degree of health for the pleasure of eating my favourite foods, while my neighbour would likely make a different choice. That doesn't make my decision irrational.)

It's possible that some people can become so dependent on a form of short-term pleasure that they become incapable of conducting a truly rational cost-benefit analysis. We can agree to call that addiction. But I think a lot of us are more rational than the addiction model gives us credit for, even when we make so-called poor choices. When Jean Paul Sartre said "A life without smoking wouldn't be worthwhile to me," was it the talk of an addict or of a rational man who valued pleasure above health?

F.
__________________

Last edited by freelancemomma : 06-08-2014 at 11:21 PM.
freelancemomma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2014, 09:33 AM   #99
Struggling Dieter
 
Wannabehealthy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: SW PA
Posts: 2,396

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mars735 View Post
Amen. If you don't mind my asking, how long did it take you to lose the love of sugar sweets like cake? Thanks!
I can't really say how long it took because it happened so long ago. I was dieting and staying away from sweets for a long time and then one day I ate some and realized it tasted sickeningly sweet to me. When I was finally diagnosed with type 2 Diabetes it made me stop and think that maybe that's why I could no longer stand the taste of "sweet." I think I was diabetic for a while before it was diagnosed.

And Nelie, although I follow low carb, I think that the period of time during which I abstained from sweets and therefore lost my taste for them was when I was calorie counting. I didn't mean that low carb was the only way for that to happen. I am not trying to defend low carb as the only way, just the only way for me, and I think that's probably because of my diabetes. I know that calorie counters can fit cake, pie, ice cream into their plan and still lose weight, but my point was directed toward those who post "I was doing so good but then there was a party with cake (or cookies etc) and I just couldn't resist them and went off plan." Apparently they love sweets, but wish they could stay away from them. So I'm saying if you stay away from them long enough your tastes can change and they no longer have the appeal. I don't know if that would work for everyone, I just know that it worked for me, and several other people have posted that it has worked for them, too. If a person wants to be able to eat sweets once in a while I'm fine with that. But if it's going to be a trigger for them, it's worth a try.
__________________
Carol Sue



Last edited by Wannabehealthy : 06-12-2014 at 09:34 AM.
Wannabehealthy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2014, 10:46 AM   #100
Just Me
 
nelie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 16,275

S/C/G: 364/202/182

Height: 5'6"

Default

I totally understand. Although I can fit sweets into my plan, sweets are definitely a rarity. I've definitely learned that I can have a bite here or there and be fine because the restriction isn't playing against me mentally. I used to have problems where I'd allow myself something (like bread) and then it'd fall to pieces. Now I'm at a point where I can say no I don't want bread or yes I want a piece and I'm good.
__________________
You can't out-exercise poor eating habits.
nelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2014, 10:52 AM   #101
maintaining since 9/2013
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,252

S/C/G: 244/148/145

Height: 5'4.5"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wannabehealthy View Post
I can't really say how long it took because it happened so long ago. I was dieting and staying away from sweets for a long time and then one day I ate some and realized it tasted sickeningly sweet to me. When I was finally diagnosed with type 2 Diabetes it made me stop and think that maybe that's why I could no longer stand the taste of "sweet." I think I was diabetic for a while before it was diagnosed.
Thanks wannabehealthy!
mars735 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2014, 06:54 PM   #102
banned
 
Pattience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Tropical Australia
Posts: 1,305

S/C/G: 80.2kg/66kg/60kg x2.2 for lb

Height: 165cm/5' 4.5"

Default

Quote:
When Jean Paul Sartre said "A life without smoking wouldn't be worthwhile to me," was it the talk of an addict or of a rational man who valued pleasure above health?
I sort of think it may be irrational to value pleasure above health. But i would love to hear a philosopher argue the case either way.

I say this because if JPS did give it up, he would find that life was indeed fine and worth living in fact better as a non-smoker. As a long time quitter, and someone who formerly loved to smoke a lot and said things of that kind, i know that i no longer feel as i did and believe it was just a way or rationalising my actions.


I don't think philosophers and rational people are immune to irrationality.

Last edited by Pattience : 06-12-2014 at 06:55 PM.
Pattience is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Posts by members, moderators and admins are not considered medical advice
and no guarantee is made against accuracy.


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:46 AM.






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.3.2