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Old 06-08-2014, 09:40 AM   #76
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Food can be poison. Should I take poison in moderation? Maybe not for everyone but carbs are poison to me. They killed my grandmother who had an awful last few years with legs amputated.
So I'm not sure best how to frame this for you to understand but labeling foods as poison (toxic, etc) is common in disordered eating and is something that can cause issues for certain people. I don't feel any food is poison. There are lots of things I don't eat and I'd never eat again but I accept other people eat those foods and I don't think labeling those foods as poison helps me or anyone. Now mentally, it may help you to think such a thing but I'd just hate to see such talk spread throughout the forum because I think it can be harmful to people in general.
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:49 AM   #77
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I also think it can be extremely helpful. You can't know for everyone. In fact the posts about it not being poison, were extremely harmful to me. Everything in moderation would have led to my demise. Tried that for decades, was on the verge of total body collapse.

I truly think most of the posts here will not work for most and will keep people overweight or obese. That is the default approach and some do succeed. But we have an obesity and diabetes epidemic don't we? So certainly not working for many. I don't normally say that. But to censure what worked for me: pure double standard. Offensive, even.

And unconscionable on my part that I wouldn't share what is common knowledge on many weight loss boards.

I also did say and you even quoted not for everyone but FOR ME. People are getting diabetes in America...in large numbers. That is a pretty signal to me that carbs have become poison for them.

Dr. Eric Westman of Duke is having great success in getting diabetic patients off of insulin with low carbs. But I've said my two cents here Nellie and with the last paragraph below will say no more in this thread.

In the end my approach worked for me and my wife. Two for two in one household. It might be extremely valuable knowledge for someone that tried moderation, once, twice, ten times and is about to give up forever that there are other ways to succeed.

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Old 06-08-2014, 10:00 AM   #78
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And offensive wasn't what I was going for. I've been on a variety of message boards, and I've learned a lot especially from those who are recovering from eating disorders. I can understand if someone says this food is 'hands off' because as I said, I too don't eat certain foods. I've seen a lot of talk from those who currently struggle with major eating disorders and those who are recovering and the common thing many of them have is referring to food as poison, toxic and the similar.

I think many people do work with moderation but as I said, for the foods I don't eat, I wouldn't recommend people who share my ideals that those foods should be eaten in moderation. I will say that personally, I think it is potentially harmful for my fellow vegans to refer to animal products as toxic/poison even though some do but the vegetarian/vegan message boards I frequent do not accept that kind of talk due to the prevalence of it in the eating disorder community.

And I'm not saying 'hey you should just eat everything in moderation', which is not what I meant at all. I think you should do what you think is best for you. If low carb works for someone and they are happy with it, then I would never suggest anything else to them. I just think framing it in a certain way may be triggering/cause issues for other people and as a large message board, we do have many people working on eating disorders and people may not be aware of the issues with the words 'poison' and 'toxic' for certain people.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:05 AM   #79
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Ok good point. Poison was not the best choice of word. I just find the evidence overwhelming that when people exceed their carb threshold, which varies from person to person, many negative health consequences can follow.

And for hunger they are unique among food groups because they spike insulin the most which leads to hunger for many. But refraining from the word poison is a good idea. Thank you. And now I will respect and not post anymore in thread.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:16 AM   #80
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So I'm not sure best how to frame this for you to understand but labeling foods as poison (toxic, etc) is common in disordered eating and is something that can cause issues for certain people. I don't feel any food is poison. There are lots of things I don't eat and I'd never eat again but I accept other people eat those foods and I don't think labeling those foods as poison helps me or anyone. Now mentally, it may help you to think such a thing but I'd just hate to see such talk spread throughout the forum because I think it can be harmful to people in general.
I agree with you that posts like those were very damaging to me and perhaps others who have eating disorders. Eating disorders cannot be cured with food or abstinence of food, it's silly to think so. But since my eating disorder caused weight gain I thought for a long time that food was problem, so it was very inticing to think that food was evil, it meant that there was nothing wrong with me!! Yey, that would've been so nice! Ultimately it made my ED spin out of control, this way of eating was not the cause of my ED but it was its fuel.

It is important to know who this can help and who it cannot help. Is it nice to label food as poison? No, it's not polite conversation at a party for sure, and for someone with an ED is very susceptible to it, as I was. The key is to learn what can work for you and what can't and just pray that the true solution will eventually become evident so that one does not have to resort to this.

Obviously what works for me doesn't work at all for others, I have no desire to convince anyone that they need to follow my suit. But I do understand that as mainstream as low carb is in the diet world, it is very alienating for the people who follow it. It must be so difficult to be at parties, and be around people who have an effortless relationship with carbohydrates, it must feel like a war zone at all times. And so one must adopt a militant approach to have any sort of chance to survive within social norms. If I had to be in a room with cake and was a low carber for life, I would have to build a wall between me and that cake - I'd have to call it poison in order not to eat it. Fine, so be it. As long as one can be sensible about it and not let it affect their relationships with carb eaters then we have to let the low carbers do what they need to do to stick with that, lord knows it ain't easy. But yes I agree with you, people with ED who are desperate can exacerbate their ED with this approach.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:53 AM   #81
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If I had to be in a room with cake and was a low carber for life, I would have to build a wall between me and that cake - I'd have to call it poison in order not to eat it. Fine, so be it. As long as one can be sensible about it and not let it affect their relationships with carb eaters then we have to let the low carbers do what they need to do to stick with that, lord knows it ain't easy. But yes I agree with you, people with ED who are desperate can exacerbate their ED with this approach.
I agree that not everyone can eat low carb. However, I believe that if you stay away from sweets like cake long enough, your tastes change and it doesn't even taste good to you. The reason I believe that is because it has happened to me. I need to keep reminding myself that everyone is different, and what worked for me won't necessarily work for others. At my grandsons birthday parties, my DIL practically forces a piece of cake down my throat..."but it's John's BIRTHDAY!! You can eat a little piece of cake!" If I eat a piece of cake, I have to have something else to eat or drink immediately to get the taste of the sugar out of my mouth because it is sickeningly sweet to me. DH and I go to a buffet at the casino. He makes 3 trips to the dessert bar.....I go back through the buffet line a second time. So, low carb is easy for me. It's not the torture for me that you make it out to be. We go to a place that has fabulous Angus Burgers. I order it with lots of lettuce and tomato...and no bun. Bread is my binge food. I love it. But I can enjoy my meal without it and feel so much better without it. I can go to a party that has sandwiches, and I can eat the meat, cheese and garnishes without the bread and no one thinks anything about it. And I feel satisfied.

I don't consider my food plan to be an ED. When I was eating carbs, and they made me want more, and more, long after my hunger was gone....now THAT was an ED.
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Old 06-08-2014, 11:09 AM   #82
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I agree that not everyone can eat low carb. However, I believe that if you stay away from sweets like cake long enough, your tastes change and it doesn't even taste good to you. The reason I believe that is because it has happened to me. I need to keep reminding myself that everyone is different, and what worked for me won't necessarily work for others. At my grandsons birthday parties, my DIL practically forces a piece of cake down my throat..."but it's John's BIRTHDAY!! You can eat a little piece of cake!" If I eat a piece of cake, I have to have something else to eat or drink immediately to get the taste of the sugar out of my mouth because it is sickeningly sweet to me. DH and I go to a buffet at the casino. He makes 3 trips to the dessert bar.....I go back through the buffet line a second time. So, low carb is easy for me. It's not the torture for me that you make it out to be. We go to a place that has fabulous Angus Burgers. I order it with lots of lettuce and tomato...and no bun. Bread is my binge food. I love it. But I can enjoy my meal without it and feel so much better without it. I can go to a party that has sandwiches, and I can eat the meat, cheese and garnishes without the bread and no one thinks anything about it. And I feel satisfied.

I don't consider my food plan to be an ED. When I was eating carbs, and they made me want more, and more, long after my hunger was gone....now THAT was an ED.
Amen. If you don't mind my asking, how long did it take you to lose the love of sugar sweets like cake? Thanks!
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Old 06-08-2014, 12:00 PM   #83
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I agree that not everyone can eat low carb. However, I believe that if you stay away from sweets like cake long enough, your tastes change and it doesn't even taste good to you. The reason I believe that is because it has happened to me. I need to keep reminding myself that everyone is different, and what worked for me won't necessarily work for others. At my grandsons birthday parties, my DIL practically forces a piece of cake down my throat..."but it's John's BIRTHDAY!! You can eat a little piece of cake!" If I eat a piece of cake, I have to have something else to eat or drink immediately to get the taste of the sugar out of my mouth because it is sickeningly sweet to me. DH and I go to a buffet at the casino. He makes 3 trips to the dessert bar.....I go back through the buffet line a second time. So, low carb is easy for me. It's not the torture for me that you make it out to be. We go to a place that has fabulous Angus Burgers. I order it with lots of lettuce and tomato...and no bun. Bread is my binge food. I love it. But I can enjoy my meal without it and feel so much better without it. I can go to a party that has sandwiches, and I can eat the meat, cheese and garnishes without the bread and no one thinks anything about it. And I feel satisfied.

I don't consider my food plan to be an ED. When I was eating carbs, and they made me want more, and more, long after my hunger was gone....now THAT was an ED.
And that's great, you have to go with your strengths. Some people can't do it unless they vilainize the food. Having a healthy understanding of your needs and addressing them accordingly is always the best option. You don't have a need to call food poison because you don't fear it. Calling food poison, toxic, labeling it as a murderer suggests that there is something to be afraid of. Being aware of how our body reacts to food is a process of awareness, but developing a fear of food is a sign of something else, not sure what but that kind of intolerance can't be healthy. I can only speak for myself but fear does not motivate me, it paralyzes me.
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Old 06-08-2014, 12:17 PM   #84
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Because I fundamentally changed my biochemistry and I am a fat burner now.
You fundamentally changed your diet. Your body chemistry is slightly different but fundamentally exactly as it was before. Your body will still preferentially utilize carbs as fuel and has always been capable of burning fat as fuel. No doubt your body has ramped up the fat burning and the production of enzymes which help in this area but a fundamental change to your biochemistry? No. (Unless you have your own definition for fundamental)

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Your mine everyone's body is very smart and powerful. Also when eating high carb you often don't get the nutirients your body needs. You can eat 5,000 calories a day. It doesn't matter. Your body will keep you hungry until you get the nutrient dense food and fat it needs.
This is not how our bodies work.

I get that low carb has changed your life. What I don't get is how you and other low carb zealots treat this topic as religion and just make things up to suit your world view. We understand the science of why low carb satiates hunger and it's not micronutrients.

While I'm picking on your tainted worldview I also take huge exception to your references to primal man. The notion that primal man was thin because he was eating low carb is like just as stupid as saying we're fat now because of sugar. It's a multifactoral issue. Availability of food itself is probably the biggest one followed by lifestyle. Macronutrient composition of diet? What a joke. I might as will make the case that primal man was lean because of the dirt that was in his diet because for millions of years dirt being consumed was just a fact of life.
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Old 06-08-2014, 12:38 PM   #85
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I agree that not everyone can eat low carb. However, I believe that if you stay away from sweets like cake long enough, your tastes change and it doesn't even taste good to you. The reason I believe that is because it has happened to me. I need to keep reminding myself that everyone is different, and what worked for me won't necessarily work for others. At my grandsons birthday parties, my DIL practically forces a piece of cake down my throat..."but it's John's BIRTHDAY!! You can eat a little piece of cake!" If I eat a piece of cake, I have to have something else to eat or drink immediately to get the taste of the sugar out of my mouth because it is sickeningly sweet to me. DH and I go to a buffet at the casino. He makes 3 trips to the dessert bar.....I go back through the buffet line a second time. So, low carb is easy for me. It's not the torture for me that you make it out to be. We go to a place that has fabulous Angus Burgers. I order it with lots of lettuce and tomato...and no bun. Bread is my binge food. I love it. But I can enjoy my meal without it and feel so much better without it. I can go to a party that has sandwiches, and I can eat the meat, cheese and garnishes without the bread and no one thinks anything about it. And I feel satisfied.

I don't consider my food plan to be an ED. When I was eating carbs, and they made me want more, and more, long after my hunger was gone....now THAT was an ED.
But the 'sweets not tasting good' thing happens for those that are calorie counters as well. I used to love cake but for the last few years it has been 'meh' for me. Now I will say that cake was never my big issue food in terms of something i'd buy for myself/make myself and overeat. I'd overeat it if available but wouldn't seek it out. I may have a cupcake once or twice per year, maybe but that is pretty much all the cake I have. Same for things like ice cream or other sweets.

The thing about eating disorders and even what people call food addiction though is that food doesn't have to taste good to have power over you. This is something I've worked on for quite a while is eat food I enjoy, truly enjoy and food that treats my body well. When I do that, all the pieces seem to come together.
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Old 06-08-2014, 02:21 PM   #86
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No, I did not deny that addiction exists, please don't put words in my mouth.
I am responding to your actual words, not those I put there. How is this not a denial?



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I reject the idea that food is addictive. I think we can be swayed to believe that it is, and by merely accepting that idea it takes strong hold in our minds.

Yes, you did say:

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In fact I said "Bottom line is that if thinking of food as an addiction helps frame your solution then who's to argue the efficacy of that?"

... but this is not acknowledging that food addiction is a true experience. This is like saying " If it helps you to believe in fairies, I won't argue with you.


Unlike fairies, there's quite a lot of legitimate evidence that food addiction is not an imaginary construct, which is what you seem to have implied.
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Old 06-08-2014, 02:44 PM   #87
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I know some people got angry when I questioned the very notion of addiction. I thought I'd describe a personal experience that led me to my current thinking.

When I was in university and living in residence (and later an apartment), I was a regular smoker -- up to a pack a day. I couldn't study without cigarettes and would think nothing of making a midnight run for a new pack. An hour without a cigarette was unthinkable. By common standards I was addicted.

And yet. Whenever I went back to my mother's house, whether for a weekend or Christmas break, I didn't smoke at all. My mother didn't know I smoked and would have found it unacceptable for me to be a smoker (my dad died of lung cancer when I was 11). In my mind, smoking around her, or even sneaking out for a cigarette, wasn't an option.

Because the stakes were high enough, I simply accepted that I couldn't smoke. Somehow I was able to study just fine without cigarettes and didn't even think about smoking very much while at my mother's house. As soon as I returned to the dorms, I "had to" have a cigarette within the hour.

This led me to understand that what we call addiction actually involves a lot more choice than we think.

I'm not the only educated person who thinks this way. Several doctors and researchers have written polemical books or papers questioning the construct of addiction.

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Old 06-08-2014, 02:56 PM   #88
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freelancemomma I don't understand why you think the fact of choice necessarily negates the existence of addiction. The scientific models with which I'm passingly familiar do not in any way exclude choice, quite the opposite, in fact. Your example of smoking is interesting and I can totally see how it would lead you to view addiction in the way you've described. I suspect, however, that an addiction treatment professional might simply say that was how you managed your addiction. If you don't mind me asking, how did you kick the smoking habit, if you did kick it?

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Old 06-08-2014, 03:10 PM   #89
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I am responding to your actual words, not those I put there. How is this not a denial?






Yes, you did say:




... but this is not acknowledging that food addiction is a true experience. This is like saying " If it helps you to believe in fairies, I won't argue with you.


Unlike fairies, there's quite a lot of legitimate evidence that food addiction is not an imaginary construct, which is what you seem to have implied.
I said those things because they are applicable to me. If you know what is true for you why do you need me to validate it? If there is help for addiction out there then you should seek that out. We all have to break out of our own prisons.

I believe in fairies.
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Old 06-08-2014, 04:17 PM   #90
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This led me to understand that what we call addiction actually involves a lot more choice than we think.

I'm not the only educated person who thinks this way. Several doctors and researchers have written polemical books or papers questioning the construct of addiction.

F.

I agree entirely that addiction, at every step, is entirely about choices. I don't believe the tendency toward addictive behavior patterns is a choice, but every single indulgence in the destructive behavior is a choice, even when it doesn't feel like it.

The core of addiction treatment is focused on assisting the addict make different choices.

Addiction isn't about the inability to choose, it's about there being more reasons to use, than not to.

Addiction recovery is about having more reasons to change than reasons to continue using.


Sometimes people need help finding those reasons and implementing changes. Addiction treatment is about helping people see and make the choices - and in some cases making the choice easier, either by increasing the punishments for (ab)use, or by increasing the rewards for abstinnce or appropriate use.

If it was generally believed that addicts had no control over their choices, there would be no point to addiction treatment.

The difference between addicts and nonaddicts are that addicts have (or see) more reasons to use, than not to. Addiction treatment is about showing or giving the addict reasons not to.

The rewards for abuse can be social, emotional, or physiological, and the rewards for change can be as well.

You can think of addiction as the need for assistance. Not "I cannot change," but instead, "I need help to change."

Unfortunately, in our culture, needing and asking for assistance (whether it be financial, social, emotional, or even medical) still carries a great deal of social dissaproval and even ostracism.

We value independence so highly that reaching out for help is seen as a contemptible sign of weakness.
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