They ate diets similar to what the people starving in Europe were eating (because the purpose of the experiment was to starve them and then refeed them, simulating the real world starvation support efforts in war-torn Europe). I still think it's interesting and appropriate due to the effect of starvation on the mind and body, it was indeed fascinating reading. Does the body differentiate between high nutrition severe calorie restriction and just plain old starvation, probably...but I bet you can still starve to death on 500 daily calories of sweet potato, spinach, quinoa and chicken breast just as much as 500 calories of potatoes.
BooBear, I think you make some good points, only because the data isn't in yet. And I do agree that most Americans eat too much, period. But I do have a couple of differing opinions--first of all, people who survived the Holocaust did so because they were not killed before they were freed, period. Some of them lived a long time after that--but I think it is just not possible to conclude that they did so because they were nearly starved to death in a concentration camp. To me that just sounds nuts!
Second, osteoporosis is not "preferable" to cancer. That is not a choice anyone should have to make, first of all, and second of all, osteoporosis is no picnic--having your vertebrae crack without warning and becoming bedridden and in constant pain isn't "better" than cancer.
It is my belief that we are all eating too much today and if you took a time machine back 40 years you would realize how much even a 1200 calorie diet is over what most people ate in other years. And I do think that studies have been done C.A.L.R.I.E. That shows that calorie restriction can extend life and make you healthier. And it makes sense. Lost of people that survived the holocaust seemed to live an awfully long time. And it makes sense that if we outside hunting we would overall be eating a lot less and get a lot less nutrients. We would even go through periods of starvation. So isn't a little starvation even part of Natures plan? Natures diet?
Okay, you`ve touched on a bit of a pet peeve of mine: the old Hobbesian view that ancient man´s life was "solitary, poor, nasty, bruttish, and short". Speaking as an archaeologist, I can tell you that this is patently false.
Hunter gatherers average between 1500 - 2000 calories a day on most days. Most of these come from the fruits, grains, and vegetables that the women gather. On feast days, or when the men finally bring a bunch of meat, they can get easily over 3000 calories. These are from studies in New Guinea and rainforest Africa. Yes, sometimes in the week they get down to maybe 1000 calories, but in general hunter gatheres and especially hunter gatherers in the past were well fed.
How do we know this? Because malnutrition shows up in the bones. Man in Europe 30,000 years ago was taller, more muscular, and in better health than Europeans 2000, 1500, heck even 100 years ago. Barely this generation is getting up to the health standards that they had 20,000 years ago.
If you head over to modern Sudan go feel the teeth of a 13 year old kid. What you are going to feel is ridges. Those come from starvation and severe calorie restriction that affect bone growth. That is what happens during periods of starvation. (all of this information is available in William Bass`book "Human Osteology, btw).
Between the avocadoes, beans, maize, and other fruits they have worked out that the average daily caloric intake for ancient Mexicans was around 2000 calories.
Here`s whats funny. In Egypt, Mesopotamia, and North America when agriculture fist got started people were worst off. Instead of going through winter not eating enough, they were malnurished the entire year. We can tell from the decrease in height, more cavities, more diseases that show up in the bones.
The point is this, if starvation was a bit of nature`s plan, it would be this: eat as much as you can in the summer and spring. Go nuts. And then have around 800 calories during the winter. This is the general plan seen in the KAlahari desert about 50 years ago.
Second: there are no studies about Holocaust survivors living longer or less than the average. Do you even know what the death rates were for starvation in Treblinka or Dachau? They were incredible! And you`re saying that it was good? I would seriously rethink your argument before going any further.
Third: Archaeologist have done a terrible job in letting the average public know about the past and what people were doing. That`s why everyone gets away with thinking that ancient man`s life was incredibly difficult and that they were barely scraping by. Trust me, we were not. The average 1700 European was getting less calories than your average hunter gatherer today, and today they are living in the rainforest, the harshest desert, and the arctic.
I don't think I was saying that people survived the HOlocust because of dieting... no I was just saying that it is one of those *make you go humn* that many of them did *live* to substanially older ages and were starved for 10 years or so -- it obviously could be many other things (such as will to live) but that is something that always makes me wonder about the calorie restriction thing, because there is an entire group that certinally was calorie restricted.... but I am sure there are hard scientific studies.
From the stories and things I've read, I don't believe anyone survived 10 years of internment in a concentration camp. Many of them died well before then. They also did intensive work for hours on end. I would also agree although there are holocaust survivors that lived a long time, there were many that did not.
From the stories and things I've read, I don't believe anyone survived 10 years of internment in a concentration camp. Many of them died well before then. They also did intensive work for hours on end. I would also agree although there are holocaust survivors that lived a long time, there were many that did not.
I think it's also worth noting that many emigrated to the States post-war, so it may seem like there are a lot of survivors. Also, I have known a handful of Survivors in my life and they may have made it to 80, but they had significant health issues that struck them long before than- usually bone and neuromuscular issues, leaving a couple of them in wheelchairs long before they passed.
Glory, thanks for linking the book... there were so many interesting health and science studies done during that time and I will be checking it out.
Archy- Thanks for the interesting info (and for being a voice of reason )
I took a couple phys anthro courses in college and absolutely fell in love with the subject. It is absolutely fascinating how much you can tell about ancient people’s lifestyles from their bones and teeth. I remember reading at least part of Human Osteology, and also Skeletons in Our Closet by Clark Spencer Larsen. I thought the latter was a little less jargony, easier for the layperson to read.
I think there is probably something to be said for eating less calories, and even slowing down the metabolism for periods of time. I think even occasional fasting can have a cleansing, positive effect on the body (if you’re in good shape to begin with and do it reasonably). However, as others stated there will always be those on the fringe taking it too far, to the point of disordered eating.
archy, thanks SO much!!! It's so interesting to read this--a reality check.
It reminds me of something I read in Barbara Tuchman's book "A Distant Mirror" about the 1300s in Europe. She said that during that time, people routinely used to cross the Alps ON FOOT. And even IN WINTER. Because that was how most people got from one place to another. Yeah, some of them didn't make it across in storms and such. And they did this on foot even though they were malnourished in terms of what we know now about healthy diet.
Today you can barely get people to walk to the store and back, let alone trek through mountain ranges.
Archy -- Loved your post! I didn't know any of that stuff!
Quote:
Originally Posted by archy
Archaeologist have done a terrible job in letting the average public know about the past and what people were doing. That`s why everyone gets away with thinking that ancient man`s life was incredibly difficult and that they were barely scraping by.
I'm not an archaeologist, but I understand your frustration. As a psychologist who teaches research design courses, I can tell you that one of the things I think we don't do well is in helping people to better decipher the results of research studies. Many people are understandably confused by all the research out there, much of which seems to be conflicting. But a big part of the problem are the reporters who don't understand research design and interpretation issues, and the public, which is often similarly misinformed.
It makes me really sad to hear people basically say researchers know nothing and all research is as good as any other. I think it points to problems in our education system. I fear people give up trying to understand because they haven't been taught...
Okey dokey, I'm taking my soapbox and going home! I think I've ranted enough!
As a psychologist who teaches research design courses, I can tell you that one of the things I think we don't do well is in helping people to better decipher the results of research studies. Many people are understandably confused by all the research out there, much of which seems to be conflicting. But a big part of the problem are the reporters who don't understand research design and interpretation issues, and the public, which is often similarly misinformed.
Heather: The research design course that I *had* (awww, really? do I hafta?) take for my ba (and carry out the design that we developed and interpret it) was probably one of the more practial courses I took in psych because it enabled me to read the literature, period. Otherwise I think that I would look at the results of a study and just go from abstract to findings and not even begin to understand the statistics!
And Archy!! What an intelligent and informative post! Thanks so much for sharing.
I think extreme calorie restriction is obsessing...which is what I was doing before I started starving. So I think it's the beginning of an eating disorder in the anorexic direction.
At first it's like a game to see how much better you can do than the day before. And then you aren't working with much.
Charlotte -- So many of my students have that mindset when they start the class too, but it REALLY helps!!!!
I now tell students that when they finish the course they will be members of a special "club" of people who know something many others don't: how to evaluate claims (especially causal claims) and understand research!
) 
It's so interesting to read this--a reality check. 
