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Why calorie counting doesn't work for most, presentation by Jonathan Bailor

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Old 04-13-2014, 08:50 AM   #16
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http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/...cate-shanahan/

Here is a podcast I just came across making similar points. So there is a growing movement saying not that calories don't matter. But they are not going to help you or at best many will have short term success only until you get other things right first. Not asking anyone to accept it, just providing resources.
 
Old 04-13-2014, 09:23 AM   #17
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Wow. The Cate Shanahan interview is very powerful. She starts out saying that she saw time and time again her patients telling her how much they eat and exercised and they just could not lose weight.

You know what her colleagues told her? They are lying. She chose to believe them and then asked why. This is an oversimplification but according to the interview food contains information for our genes. So depending on the type of food you can be telling your body to store fat, burn fat, burn muscle, build muscle, etc.

She also says she learned like everyone calories in calories out in grade school but it just doesn't work that way for humans at many important levels. She has seen people training for marathons, eating 1200 calories a day not lose weight.

Ian, question. Are you eating the same foods in the same proportions that you were at your high weight? Just less of everything? Day in day out? If not you changed the macro composition of your daily food intake.

Last edited by diamondgeog : 04-13-2014 at 09:30 AM.
 
Old 04-13-2014, 09:30 AM   #18
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To answer your question about why most people counting calories fail, the answer is pretty simple. They're either unable to stick with it for whatever reason, or they're wrong about their calorie intake (either by improper measuring, underestimating, forgetting stuff, or, yes, sometimes lying to themselves). It drives me nuts when people quote the statistics about weight regain after calorie counting as evidence that it doesn't work. Well, yeah, of course they'll regain once they stop controlling their intake. That's kind of how it works, and it doesn't mean that the problem is with the calorie counting.

And as for marathon runners gaining weight on 1200 calories a day? Sorry to be confrontational, but I have to call bull****. That's not physically possible. Weight loss/gain isn't magic. You can't put fat on out of thin air - it's made out of something, and that something is calories.

(just as a note, I'm not saying that calorie counting is the ONLY way that works, although it is for me. Any method that results in eating fewer calories that you burn will work, whether that's by counting, cutting out food groups a la keto, portion control, whatever)
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:35 AM   #19
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And I almost didn't post here because I get 'flamed' so much whenever I post something contrary to the eat everything in moderation lobby. Well if that works for people: awesome, I am very happy for you. But it didn't me.
You really can't let this go can you? You get flamed because your research is always one-sided and you're talking to people like they are stupid. Furthermore, there is no "eat-everything-in-moderation" lobby. I've never heard of such a lobby, why are you drawing a line in the sand and even more so, why do you continuously need to criticize people for what they eat? That's all you do, it doesn't take much searching on the forums to find you making statements like this...“And I suppose the eat everything folk do not consider grains poison so they aren't telling themselves to eat poison. What the reality is though, well I feel they are even if they don't think so.” This is really no different than saying that jesus is the saviour and people of other relgions may not think so but he is for sure and so they're going to ****. You make up statistics, you make sweeping generalizations, and you accuse people of not giving your method a chance. I mean, where does this statistic come from? "Most people, 95% qualifies as most to me, calorie restrictions do not work."

Dude, good for you that your method works. I have zero interest, none whatsoever to participate in your methods. I have no intention of putting butter in my coffee ok? Not my cup of tea. I would rather be fat forever than follow this method.

Being part of this forum is realizing that different things work for different people. We are all, everyone here, happy for you that you have lost weight, and have gained an understanding of nutrition for yourself. But you yourself cannot and will not acknowledge that anyone else can do something slightly different than you and be successful. It's rotten behavior when you tell people "of course people can do whatever they want, but they won't be successful and they are eating poison even though they don't know it." Nobody is criticizing what you do, yet you criticize what others do. That's why you get flamed.
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:47 AM   #20
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Let's play nice and not get a flame war going, peeps. Remember it's not just what you say, it's mostly how you say it.


If there is a statistic that only 5% of people are successful at calorie counting I'd want to know two things:
1) What defines success? Does it include a time frame? Amount of weight kept off?

2) Using the same criteria and methods, what % of people are successful on low carb programs? I suspect it might be equally low for a variety of reasons. Among them, lots of people try different weight loss method and leave the ones that don't work for them. Many try calorie counting and it doesn't work for them. Many try low carb and it doesn't work for them. Another reason has to do with how our hormones change once we become obese and seems to make it easier for us to regain later. A third reason would be that keeping up with ANY method of eating over time is difficult at best.

For full disclosure, I lost 125 pounds calorie counting 9 years ago, but have regained more than 1/2 of it. Is that a success or not?

I also believe in a plurality of weight loss methods. And I do know that when I cut sugar out my cravings are reduced, but I haven't been able to keep it up indefinitely.
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:56 AM   #21
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And as for marathon runners gaining weight on 1200 calories a day? Sorry to be confrontational, but I have to call bull****. That's not physically possible. Weight loss/gain isn't magic. You can't put fat on out of thin air - it's made out of something, and that something is calories.
Yes to this!
Quoting a trainer whose evidence is what her clients told her is not the least bit convincing. Did she ask her clients HOW they were training for the marathon? Did she actually observe what they ate? There is a mountain of peer-reviewed research that demonstrates both obese and non-obese folks under-estimate their food intake. Marathon training means building some muscle, which might explain the lack of weight loss. 1200 calories sounds highly suspect for anyone doing effective marathon training. I've done marathon training and got substantially thinner on ~3000 cal/day or more, including loads of big peanut butter-chocolate chip cookies & chocolate cake.

@Diamondgeog: It's great to share info about what's worked. But no one knows how a high fat diet will play out in the long run. It's a fad currently, and those who follow it are guinea pigs. The only valid conclusion you can draw from your WOE is that you've lost weight and are healthy NOW. There is no body of data yet to suggest how healthy you will be in 15 yrs, or even 5 yrs. Congrats on your success!

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Old 04-13-2014, 10:04 AM   #22
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I'm not saying that calorie counting is the ONLY way that works, although it is for me. Any method that results in eating fewer calories that you burn will work, whether that's by counting, cutting out food groups a la keto, portion control, whatever
This is precisely the point, what does it matter what method each person follows as long as they can follow it happily and with good results? Why is it so important to start threads claiming XYZ methods don't work only for the purpose of criticizing? Someone is not "right" just because they talk the most and the loudest.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:14 AM   #23
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Ok Dr. Cate Shanahan is a liar. And every other doctor, trainer, and person who has experienced this or seen it is a liar as well. Only quantity matters, quality and composition of food is of no concern.

BTW I think losing and regaining half is a perfect example of what the presenter and the people I follow in the whole food no grains community would say happens often.
 
Old 04-13-2014, 10:21 AM   #24
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For those interested here are just a few of the people I follow on Twitter. And nothing bothers me here anymore. I'm as passionate as anyone here. And I will never stop being that way.

Twitter has been a big part of my success by constantly helping me learn new nutrition information. Some of my favorite follows are:

Professor Tim Noakes @ProfTimNoakes
Mark Sisson @Mark_Sisson
Dr. Ann Childers @AnnChildersMD
Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt @DietDoctor1
Jimmy Moore @livinlowcarbman
Dr. Chris Kresser @chriskresser
Sam Feltham @samfeltham
 
Old 04-13-2014, 10:26 AM   #25
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The fad diet comment, oh boy. There has been one time in human history that we have gone low fat high carbs. The last 50 years. How's that working out for us? Let's see. People dropping like flies from diabetes, heart disease, cancer. Dementia soaring. The low fat diet is the fad.

We actually have data for millennium on high fat¦ what happened? nonexistent or rare type 2, cancer, heart disease. The Inuit, very healthy when they eat their traditional diet. Did you know in the early 1900s graduating doctors were told never go into cardiovascular medicine¦ too few patients.

Last edited by diamondgeog : 04-13-2014 at 10:38 AM.
 
Old 04-13-2014, 10:56 AM   #26
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The fad diet comment, oh boy. There has been one time in human history that we have gone low fat high carbs. The last 50 years. How's that working out for us? Let's see. People dropping like flies from diabetes, heart disease, cancer. Dementia soaring. The low fat diet is the fad.

We actually have data for millennium on high fat¦ what happened? nonexistent or rare type 2, cancer, heart disease. The Inuit, very healthy when they eat their traditional diet. Did you know in the early 1900s graduating doctors were told never go into cardiovascular medicine¦ too few patients.
You are doing exactly what all the other fad dieters have done: embracing your WOE as the holy grail. You are sort of the Dean Orninsh of high fat Instead of veering to the opposite extreme, why not take a measured approach, or at least stick to credible evidence--learn what credible evidence IS if you want to convince others, which you clearly want to do. So far you are throwing out all sorts of assumptions for which you have yet to provide credible support.
Where is the data from millenia? Everyone can pull it out their hat to say what humans ate over time. Whoever lived to reproduce, and leave remains that were found, and from which scientists can extrapolate diet habits--that's evidence. Have you actually read any of it, besides flitting around the web and quoting at best secondary, tertiary sources, and mostly philosophizers like the rest of us!

Who said Dr. Cate Shanahan is a liar? It certainly wasn't me. I said that she did not provide a shred of valid evidence, based on your description of her interview. Do you not see the difference? If I were Inuit, I would embrace their style of eating. Since I am not, I would proceed carefully, since I have a different genetic endowment. I sure as heck wouldn't presume to know what other people should eat.

Again, congrats on your success.

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Old 04-13-2014, 11:04 AM   #27
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Totally completely missing my points. People eat high fat for most of human history, it isn't a fad.

She had a patient eating 1200 calories a day, training for a marathon, not losing weight. She was summarizing one of her cases.

Someone said it was BS what she said and then someone else agreed.

So either Dr. Shanahan is a liar by those comments. Or her patient is. Or both. Or they really have no clue about their calories. I suspect the Dr. Would have been pretty thorough about getting the calories down right with her patient.

I've probably read 1000 studies the last year. Thanks on the success. You know why I did this time? I approached it that I knew NOTHING about nutrition. I started with a blank canvas. Then I built up my approach by reading point, counterpoint, trying stuff out. Researching more. And my success has blown even my wildest expectations away.

Everything I have done this time has been backed by science. Everything. And it would seem I got the science right spot on for me, my wife, and every friend also succeeding. It isn't just me. I have inspired a lot of successful change in my little corner of the world.

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Old 04-13-2014, 11:09 AM   #28
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People eat high fat for most of human history, it isn't a fad.
Where is your credible evidence?
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:11 AM   #29
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You assume that people who don't follow your preaching a are eating a high carb low fat diet. I think youre just arguing with made up scenarios. Nobody cares about or criticizes what you eat, people only care for their own eating approaches.

I think you would benefit greatly from my dietary approach but do I bother preaching to you about it? No, why would I when you are perfectly capable of having your own opinion?

You didn't used to be like this. I'm starting to suspect adverse effects of your diet.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:17 AM   #30
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She had a patient eating 1200 calories a day, training for a marathon, not losing weight. She was summarizing one of her cases.

So either Dr. Shanahan is a liar by those comments. Or her patient is. Or both. Or they really have no clue about their calories. I suspect the Dr. Would have been pretty thorough about getting the calories down right with her patient.
One case, if it's true, is an outlier and lends little to the discussion of what works for the human population.

What is she a doctor of? Could be English literature for all we know. She may be well-qualified too. Point is, Dr. in front of a name doesn't mean much, especially on the web.

You "suspect" the Dr. would know = assumption, just like fat-is-all-bad folks. Okay, let's say she is a bona fide doctor of nutrition or kinesiology or medicine, your choice. I suggest you take a look at the initial chapter of Kessler's The End of Overeating--whoops, that's DR Kessler!--in which he cites research to show that well-intentioned researchers along with their subjects typically under-estimate food intake. It doesn't make them liars, it just means we need to control for it in the design of any study. And consumers of research, like you or I or anyone else need to have healthy skepticism and ask about the methodology, before embracing the results.

Over and out. Time for yoga class.

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