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Judging Others: do you do it?

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Old 04-17-2013, 04:50 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by rubidoux View Post
I find it really interesting that this thread ( http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/body...ight-loss-219/ ) is going on at the same time and there seems to be a pretty strong consensus that it is the fat person's fault that they are fat. If it is the fault of the fat person, then I'm not sure why we shouldn't be judgmental. Seems sort of like the flip side of the same question.
I don't think so , but you are entitled to read into it whatever you want!

I was looking for information and ran across this...so I Never said or Implied anything ...you inserted your feelings or possibly fears .

I also googled that statement and was surprised what popped up!

My anxiety closet does not get opened up by merely asking questions or pondering ideas . If we can not be free to express thoughts without being slapped with a label ...That is pretty sad ...and close minded ,IMO!
I feel enlightened to read the various responses and encouraged that people share their opinion. We all do not need to hold the same opinions or values ...that is what makes life interesting!
So please don't feel the need to paint people into a tiny little corner of intolerance.... I sincerely do not believe anyone meant it that way.

Guess what I lost over 100 lbs ....so that makes me fat ...that and couple of bucks will get me a cup of coffee! I do not fear the word or the sight ...I chose that I was not going to live that unhealthy way. Did I hate myself ....no ...did I have a good life ?? Yes ....have the same DH and family a hundred pounds later...and the same friends...same career....and same values.
I wanted to lose the weight to be healthier ....not because of some deep seated hate or fear of fat.
Please know that I would never mean to insult you .....and if somehow I have ...I apologize
I think it is healthy to have open dialogue...and thought we could be open and honest with each other here

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Old 04-17-2013, 06:11 PM   #47
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Okay, I'm opening up a can of worms here, I know, but I've observed that peoples' belief regarding what causes obesity (or who or what is to blame) closely resembles their sociopolitical and religious beliefs. The degree of personal responsibility and agency, societal and familial influence, etc., that they assign specifically resembles how they'd respond if you asked who's responsible when someone commits a morally reprehensible action or crime.

So what I'm saying is that any one time on this forum, you'll see different theories espoused, just the way you'd hear people attesting to different political affiliations or religions.

And the subject is just as touchy.

I never realized till spending a lot of time at 3FC forums that "why I'm/we're/they're fat" can become one of those conversational minefields like politics and religion.

And so is the different ways of eating and the methods and processes we follow to rid ourselves of this fat.

"Your body is a battlefield." Yes, indeed.

Which actually dovetails neatly into the idea of judging or being judgmental.

Yes, there's science involved, and some objective mathematical calculations, but beyond that ... tread softly, is what I'm always telling myself.

This has been a pretty constructive thread, but maybe some of you see what I mean.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:18 PM   #48
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I'm sorry, Roo, but I don't understand a lot of your post. I'm not sure what you googled and I'm not sure why you seem to think my anxiety closet is open. I definitely wasn't thinking anything you said was a personal attack on me or that you were even taking a position. I certainly don't feel insulted.

I think it's great that you lost weight! I don't have any trouble w that. I have lost some myself.

I don't think I said anywhere that we shouldn't share our opinions. In fact, I think it's pretty interesting to hear what other people think.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:28 PM   #49
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I think you're very much onto something, saef. Actually, I tried searching the forums for an old post your comments reminded me of, and I found this gem you posted 3 years ago. (I like your thoughts here, down to noting how sports team devotion is another phenomenon similar to religion...)

What I was looking for was this post by kaplods from a few months ago - she had a great point about the divisiveness between dieting plans looking an awful lot like disagreements between religious sects, down to the part where the casual bystander would be bewildered over how many hackles get raised over such small things.

Anyway, good point that the minefield is there not only in what specifics we choose to adhere to/advocate for, but in how we define and see the overall issue as well.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:31 PM   #50
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One thing I have noticed about this topic (and there is a similar topic going on now on a low carb forum and I see the same there) is that, the people who were never *really big* tend to be more judgmental. I think it is harder for those of us who have really felt the judgment and even remained fat and overeating and not doing whatever it is that you judgmental folks think we should be doing while feeling that judgement, to be that way towards others.
I have noticed this too, and when I see other large people, I typically just feel empathy for them and wonder about where they might be on their journey (denial, indifference, the spark of change perhaps?). Of course, I am currently a very large person myself, so perhaps my perspective is invalid in that area! Haha, However, when I did briefly attain a "healthy weight" in HS, as I wrote in another thread, I was very disappointed in people...that I was suddenly treated kindly and given attention by men. I didn't want to be treated that way if it was only due to my physique, I became very depressed and regained the weight.

This thread has been "renting space" in my head as well...some of the phrases turned have had me thinking...I could have very well been the obese person with unhealthy food in my cart...

Since I was an obese child I always felt embarrassed about eating in front of people...probably because other children and my father would directly say...I shouldn't be eating that/so much/dessert etc., in front of others. And of course...nobody makes such comments to a thin child eating the exact same thing...only AFTER a child is visibly overweight do such comments become a daily experience for them. I was so keenly aware of and hurt by their judgement that I avoided eating around others...further fostering an unhealthy relationship with food.
To this day I struggle with it...Since Dec. 31st I have eaten about 1500 kcals or less each day. I track my food...but each Saturday my fiance and I will either go out for a meal or make something "off-plan" for dinner, including a portioned dessert. I am mortified of people hearing me order dessert, or seeing me purchase something like chips and BBQ food at the store...even though I know I will still only have eaten 1500 kcals for the day.
I exercise daily, I eat a moderate, primarily plant-based diet, but I'm still "big" and as long as I am...There will be people judging my choice to have dessert on Saturdays...that says a lot about how big people are perceived by "thinner" people...how we are judged.
As long as I'm visibly big, people will judge me to be lazy. I was also keenly aware of this as a child, and so put every ounce of my energy into my studies...so that if I couldn't be thin, well, at least I could be smart. Now in college, (Junior year Microbio/Chem) I will graduate with honors, I have received several scholarships and academic achievement awards. I share this because, even as my accomplishments accumulate...I'm still trying to convince MYSELF that I am OK...That I am not some lazy, worthless, fat person piling up the national debt with my health problems (as I am frequently reminded of in the college environment). No matter how many hours I study, work in the lab, no matter how hard I try...as long as I am visibly fat...I am lazy. I am active every day now...yet most of the people who see me will assume otherwise...and possibly even avoid getting to know me because of it.
I don't blame my weight or my circumstances or on the mentality of the thin...but I think it would be wonderful to see this country move beyond hating on fat people and into providing an environment where we can feel safe/comfortable doing normal things...like going to the gym or eating out. I'm not sure what that would look like, and I know some have said if you took away the shame nobody would have any motivation to lose. I for one didn't have ANY motivation to lose this weight before my mom nearly died from a recurring infection (diabetic)...so the whole judgement piece I can't say helped me as an individual, I feel it hurt me as you can probably tell by my ranting.

-Sorry this is so long/disorganized/off original topic, haha! I just had these things on my mind. This thread had me pondering all day...now I am going to be paying much more attention to how I judge others. So many INSPIRING women (and men?) on this forum. I so appreciate all the thoughtfully composed opinions and stories. Love 3FC!
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:37 PM   #51
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In my professional life as a physician, I often need to tell someone that their lifestyle puts them at risk for strokes (often in the setting of the person already having had one or more strokes) and that if they want to prevent further damage, they must learn to eat differently and move more regularly and more vigorously. When I'm in "doctor mode," I seem to be naturally more attuned to the challenges these patients face in order to do what I've asked, and don't think those catty thoughts nearly as often. I would try to engage that mindset more often, but it seems to go hand in hand with a need to give advice, which I clearly am not going to do to strangers who are not asking me for it.

I would say that because you ARE a physician that it probably makes it harder not to judge.

I'm not a doctor, not married to one and I don't play one on TV But... My mother in law is a retired psychiatrist and neurologist. My husband's cousin and aunt are periodontists. They work(ed) with people all the time and gave advice on how to take care of their bodies, health, teeth, etc... and what happens? Most people don't do it. Excuses are made.

If you see that day in and day out - year after year - especially as a physician, raised cholesterol, elevated blood pressure, diabetes, etc. Most of which can be controlled with diet and exercise. You prescribe diet and exercise and a year later the patient comes back having gained more weight and not doing anything for their health - they just want you to fix it with a drug. They have excuse after excuse.

Then, when you go out, after seeing and working with patients day in andy day out, two overweight kids eating ice cream. Honestly, I think it would be hard to turn the doctor voice off - "Man... those kids need to put down the ice cream and go run around outside!" You probably see the health problems lurking in their future.

I get that. I really do. I got a taste of how RARE it is to see a doctor's advice taken when I went to visit my doctor. He was so thrilled that I was dropping weight and exercising. He was as excited as I was when my blood pressure, cholesterol and blood sugars were all treated by diet and exercise alone. He even said, "If only more people were doing what you are doing. You are my poster child for taking charge of your health!" I SHOULDN'T be the rarity.

So... while "I" don't tend to judge overweight people as I "was" morbidly obese and I fight with myself daily (hourly) the demons in my head, I can totally see how I would get jaded as a physician. It doesn't mean you aren't compassionate, but that you know all too well how little you say and advise gets followed.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:45 PM   #52
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I'm sorry, Roo, but I don't understand a lot of your post. I'm not sure what you googled and I'm not sure why you seem to think my anxiety closet is open. I definitely wasn't thinking anything you said was a personal attack on me or that you were even taking a position. I certainly don't feel insulted.

I think it's great that you lost weight! I don't have any trouble w that. I have lost some myself.

I don't think I said anywhere that we shouldn't share our opinions. In fact, I think it's pretty interesting to hear what other people think.
I started the other thread about obesity and who's fault is it...that you referred to in your post...sorry I was not clearer.
I was looking for some information ...when I ran across ...that tag that was on a professional site that dealt with Obesity ....and it got me thinking.
Then I googled that phrase and a ton of stuff came up.
So when I saw you reference that post ....I wondered why you would tie the two threads together....that's all. I felt that you may have thought I was saying something that I was not! So when you said it's the consensus it's the fat person's fault..... So that is where I was coming from.
And I was saying being fat did not impede my personal or professional life. Also that losing weight did not impact it either negatively or positively in that area.
I refuse to use my weight as an excuse that's all I was saying.
Everything is not or was not about be being fat or skinny.
I have lived on both sides of fence....as a naturally skinny kid/adult and an obese adult, I just don't view it as people ganging up on one side or another.
I feel people will always notice things that are different and question things ...dropped my daughter off to high school saw a girl in Pink Polka Dot Pj's and commented to my daughter in the drop off lane....observation is a normal thing...does not mean there is malice attached!
So glad you were not offended. I think having people speak views freely is refreshing and helps us all understand each other more and exposes us to another way of looking at things.
Glad you are having success with your diet, and will look forward to following your progress
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:12 PM   #53
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[quote=berryblondeboys;4707006]Well, I'm not a maintainer, but I have thoughts on this!

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But from my own experiences and from hearing other people's experiences, you are darned if you do and darned if you don't say or do something to intervene as a parent. My mom was slightly chubby as a teen and her mom said nothing about it. She never forgave her mom for not saying something to maybe make her do something about her weight. So, when I was a teen and gained a little weight, my mom said something to me, it just made me feel worse.

This sums it up perfectly! Yep, darned if you do, darned if you don't!
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:54 PM   #54
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I have the "right" to judge people if I want to. Who says that I have to be that "bigger" (no pun intended) person? There is nothing inherently wrong in judging someone else, IMO. If it's something that you want to change, then it is an issue that you can work on, but who says that we have to be nice to everyone in the world?
Well, plenty of people say "we have to be nice" but that's not why I try to be. I try to be nice for many reasons, one of which is that I'd like others to feel the same and be nice to me. To me, it's one of the basic tenets of a civilized society---people doing unto others and all that (the good ole golden rule). Without that, I believe we would be in some "Mad Max" type of world. You obviously have a right to your opinion; I completely disagree with it (and you may not give a hoot--that's fine).
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:46 PM   #55
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On these boards, I see skinny-hate going on ALL THE TIME. "I'd rather be fat then all bones" "I'd NEVER want to be as skinny as her", and yet that is okay. Say one unpleasant thing about an overweight person and it's like you punched grandma.
And in real life. I think people often make a distinction between being judgmental of an overweight person vs. a thin person. Like being rude about a thin person is fine.

As an overweight person (keeping in mind I was one and admit I've thought all of the following things) have you ever judged a thinner person thinking: "She must have and eating disorder" "Oh I'd never wanna look like that, that's TOO thin" "Skinny B!(*&" "She's wearing revealing clothes, what a SL>>"

Judgement to judgement is no different. But I have found, for me personally, people seem to be much more outward with their judgement of someone they consider thin.
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:50 PM   #56
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As an overweight person (keeping in mind I was one and admit I've thought all of the following things) have you ever judged a thinner person thinking: "She must have and eating disorder" "Oh I'd never wanna look like that, that's TOO thin" "Skinny B!(*&" "She's wearing revealing clothes, what a SL>>"
I don't think I've ever judged a person for being thin. I've been envious, but not judgmental.

I'm in awe I think.. that's probably the word. "Like HOW do you do it with all this food around?"
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:52 PM   #57
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And in real life. I think people often make a distinction between being judgmental of an overweight person vs. a thin person. Like being rude about a thin person is fine.

As an overweight person (keeping in mind I was one and admit I've thought all of the following things) have you ever judged a thinner person thinking: "She must have and eating disorder" "Oh I'd never wanna look like that, that's TOO thin" "Skinny B!(*&" "She's wearing revealing clothes, what a SL>>"

Judgement to judgement is no different. But I have found, for me personally, people seem to be much more outward with their judgement of someone they consider thin.
The comments directed at thinner people are really no different that the comments directed at overweight, in my mind anyway. Judgment is judgment, period. I think people have a belief that overweight people are more fragile and thinner people are stronger, more hardy...so maybe they feel more free to make comments. Not that it is always true; but because people believe thin is better; and thin people are more confident, stronger in body and mind; and fit because they worked hard for it. It is the opposite of the belief that fat people are fat because they are lazy. Both types of assumptions can be way off base.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:22 PM   #58
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This thread is really interesting. I want to provide my opinion on a few points, so I just want to make it clear up front that this is my opinion based on my own experiences and may not be valid for other people.

1) Darned if you do, darned if you don't regarding your child's weight issues -- I've already said that I don't think it's ever appropriate or useful to tell a girl that she's fat, and it probably goes for boys too. That doesn't mean that I don't think families should do something to encourage their overweight kids to lose weight. My personal experience is that my obese father told me I was fat starting when I was at a healthy weight, while continually insisting on eating unhealthy food at restaurants many times a week, making fun of people who exercise, and keeping our house full of junk food. The end result was that I felt like I was an ugly fat girl but I didn't have the slightest clue about what I was supposed to do to lose weight. A couple times as a teen my mom tried SlimFast or an exercise DVD, but that was really it. My family is still like this even though since my own weight loss my mom has also changed her lifestyle -- every time I go home to visit, there is a risk of "You've gained some weight! Here have a cake."

My point is that the way to get your kids to lose weight is NOT to shame them for being fat, or make judgmental comments about their appearance or health or food choices. You can set a good example, make sure that your house is full of healthy options, eat healthy meals together as a family, and keep active as a family.

That said I should also mention that A) I don't have kids yet although I'm expecting twin girls in a couple months, and B) I also can't stand the kind of personal trainers who are the "drill sergeant" and insult you for not working harder. I acknowledge that "drill sergeant" personal trainers are more effective than "cheerleader" personal trainers for some people. For me, that attitude makes me feel like I'll never be any good so I should just give up now.

2) Saef's comment that people's beliefs about weight loss are like religious or political beliefs -- I fully agree. One of the things I think we try to emphasize (but often fail at) on the maintainers forum is that what works for one person may not work for other people. I personally think the same is true of religious and political beliefs. Many people, however, feel that their beliefs are the only "right" answer, and we see the same phenomenon with weight loss advice. This is why some people have decided not to post anymore because they feel attacked for having a different opinion. I have run into similar issues on occasion, usually because I am not a sugar-sensitive person and it bothers me when I see an entire thread about how the only "right" way to lose weight is to cut down on carbs because carbs will mess up your metabolism or whatever the news of the day is. That method doesn't work for me at all. The same thing is true of the divide between people who need an "everything in moderation" approach and people who need to cut out entire categories of foods. These are highly individual decisions but are often presented as "this is what worked for me so it must be the right thing to do." I don't know where I'm going with this. My point is that we have a diversity of people with a diversity of opinions and none of those opinions are invalid.

3) Judging thin people -- I admit I am guilty of this too. When I was in grad school, there was a girl who was in the gym the same time as me every day, and she would get on the stair climber for an hour with the setting high enough that she was dripping sweat all over the place and had to hang on to the railings to stay upright. She was possibly one of the skinniest people I have ever seen in my life (you could see her entire spine and ribs through her shirt), and I admit to often thinking that she might be exercise bulimic or have some kind of eating disorder. I never said anything to her and I generally tried to focus on my own workout, but I do wonder what her story was and what ended up happening to her.


In any case, again, I just kind of rambled and I don't know that I'm really contributing to this conversation at all, or that this even has anything to do with the original post anymore. Take it or leave it.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:24 PM   #59
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Great thoughts paperclippy! Thanks for sharing them!
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:29 PM   #60
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Jessica, good points. There are over 169 thousand 3fc's and over 169 thousand opinions. We are all entitled to our own opinions and I think it is a waste of my time and energy to get upset at someone else's opinion.
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