Please help me explain what is going on.
After 6 months, I went off Phase 1 last week for 6 days. I didn't go off the rails or anything - I would say I consumed approximately 2500 calories each day.
I weighed myself today and scale shows 20 pound gain. Although concerning, what is even more concerning is how my clothes fit - it seems my fat cells grew as my clothes fit as if I am truly 20 pounds heavier. Common sense tells me this is crazy but is it possible that our BMR is lowered so much on this that these kinds of numbers are somewhat accurate and not all water weight.
Has anyone gone through this and found their size went back relatively quickly because at this rate, it seems I need 6-8 weeks on phase 1 to compensate for 6 days off??!!
Interesting link wylothar. I think paleo proponents forget that the Inuit also gathered berries, lichen, and sorrel and prepared them for winter storage & use as well as eating the stomach contents of the caribou for greens and the livers of many animals which do contain higher levels of Vit C than we might expect. The 'country foods' weren't just meat. The vegetation was prized when available as it was pretty scarce, considering the climate and land.
I agree though with the idea that we eat far too many carbs (especially processed ones as a general rule). I would tend toward more organic whole foods including some fruit but more veggies, and less grains especially the overused ones like corn & wheat & white rice (I'm GF due to med issues).
I don't think that there really are 'safe starches' for some people... but they would have to monitor what's happening in their bodies and tweak food plans accordingly.
It isn't just about the calories... but just thinking about that - you ate 150% more calories per day than on P1, if not more.
Just fyi.
How much sodium did you have? Were you drinking the same amount of water as P1? How much of your eating was processed carbs (fat & sugar combined in foods/meals)? These things all affect weight gain which isn't always just fat. Inflammation, sodium, etc? Still taking your vitamins??
All things to consider....
Just hop back on the wagon and maybe considering how your body reacts to that huge sudden increase might encourage you to keep on plan until proper phase off.
You'll get back into the groove again and get healthier.
Interesting link wylothar. I think paleo proponents forget that the Inuit also gathered berries, lichen, and sorrel and prepared them for winter storage & use as well as eating the stomach contents of the caribou for greens and the livers of many animals which do contain higher levels of Vit C than we might expect. The 'country foods' weren't just meat. The vegetation was prized when available as it was pretty scarce, considering the climate and land.
I agree though with the idea that we eat far too many carbs (especially processed ones as a general rule). I would tend toward more organic whole foods including some fruit but more veggies, and less grains especially the overused ones like corn & wheat & white rice (I'm GF due to med issues).
I don't think that there really are 'safe starches' for some people... but they would have to monitor what's happening in their bodies and tweak food plans accordingly.
Great thread, all!
Liana
Not from the primary people in the movement. They are up on most research as it come out. The local personal trainer now they can miss large elements of research I agree. They also coach on super vague guidelines, much like IP does in fact. Very few people want to get in the weeds of what is actually going on in their diet practices. The more your messed up the more people tend to dig deep.
Especially guys like Wolf, Kressor, Matt Lalonde, those guys are pretty much on top of the research and aren't afraid to throw a BS flag when needed. Kresser did a write up about the radiation levels in fish in relation to Fukishima event and used a very calm and educated approach vs the huge scare tactics that many in the 'real food movement' where doing. Recently did a podcast going over the cancer/ red meat relationship (more like lack of relationship).
Even I know of that concept you described above. Eating stomach contents that is.
Dr Kiefer (not paleo but keto/ VLCD) believes the safe starch position came about recently because people trying to find excuses to eat starchy foods. White rice and sweet potatoes seem to be decently tolerated in large. Really depends on person and the glycogen needs. I am one who can't have much starch or carbs period. But 'Resistant starch' does seem to have an benificial effect in improving the gut flora balance. Lots of info out on that also. Wolf has had great success with it. Mark Sisson still hasn't made a personal position on it.
The high protein idea everybody puts on 'paleo' isn't the position of the top tier or anyone truly versed in it. I listen to hours a week of podcasts from these guys. As far as physical volume veggies are primary. Asshats early in paleo movement have made certain untrue media stigma stick. Dr. Terry wahls protocol is very veggy dominate and I don't see anyone say it isn't in paleo guidelines. Weston A Price is very similar also. They use some sprouted legumes, lentils and such and the spent decades living with different hunter gatherer population to observe them and run test. WAP website loves to bash paleo but many top 'Paleo' people think they are more alike than not. Rob wolf I believe had a WAP representative on his show despite the negative writing that WAP put out on 'Paleo'. Searching for link will post later if found.
They are all 80% or more in agreement and argue and name call over the last <20% of differences. Then those outside the movement use broad generalizations to bring it down also. Real food Vegan actually have more in common with 'Paleo' than what they disagree on.
I don't think the misinformation stigma will go away, they will have to adopt a new name. Paleo does not equal perceived paleolithic period diet either. Another flaw in the name. we have sources of foods that seem very safe that likely "caveman" didn't have access to.
Two very 'Paleo' friendly plate images. http://goo.gl/SZGA30 and http://goo.gl/PH1e2h (Dr. John Berardi)
Other plate images do exist but of the speakers at PaleoFX, I bet everyone of them recognize the as 'Paleo' representations and healthy.
Last edited by wylothar; 02-09-2015 at 09:15 PM.
Reason: Cleaning up phone typing, and clarification.
It isn't just about the calories... but just thinking about that - you ate 150% more calories per day than on P1, if not more.
Just fyi.
How much sodium did you have? Were you drinking the same amount of water as P1? How much of your eating was processed carbs (fat & sugar combined in foods/meals)? These things all affect weight gain which isn't always just fat. Inflammation, sodium, etc? Still taking your vitamins??
All things to consider....
Just hop back on the wagon and maybe considering how your body reacts to that huge sudden increase might encourage you to keep on plan until proper phase off.
You'll get back into the groove again and get healthier.
Liana
It is actually having the opposite reaction - knowing how my body reacted, perhaps this isn't the best long-term plan and I should switch to a program that increases my BMR because this impact is outrageous.
All the things you mention should not result in rapid weight gain and increase size in just 6 days to the extent it has.
It is crazy how fast you gain it back if you don't phase off correctly. I went off the diet without doing it properly and have gained 14 of 18 lbs back in about 3 months. Most of it has been in the past month. I have never gained weight so fast. I blame myself and have been trying to get back on track. It makes you question if we are going to be forever going on and off this diet. Having said that I did feel much better when I was eating this way.
1. Replenishment of glycogen stores = approx 5lbs
2. Water retention from sodium = possibly 2-3lbs
3. Full bowel from carbs without corresponding fiber or protein = anywhere between 5 to 10 lbs
4. Bloating from food intolerances - when your body is trying to recover from a less than agreeable reaction to a newly reintroduced food it's going to hold onto water to try and help flush it out
At 5'8 your BMR (assuming you're a healthy able-bodied woman) should be around 1750-1800 calories. Let's be nice and add 200 for physical activity to the top of that range. 2000 calories per day to maintain. You said roughly 2500 per day for 6 days would be a maximum gain of roughly a lb (working on the slightly averaged 3500 calories = 1 lb of gain). You haven't been on IP long enough to see a massive reduction in your BMR, unless you are a rebooter.
Keep drinking your water and eating your veggies and healthy fats and this will probably resolve itself. The fact that you are seeing bloat indicates it's probably a combination of all of the above.
Is IP a healthy diet? It depends on how you use it, how well you plan your real food within it and how much you understand about how your metabolism and body processes work and how IP is tailored in to those factors. It isn't the BEST diet out there, but it shouldn't be causing undue harm.
Many people disagree that you should be testing your body's boundaries while on IP, to see where your tolerances are, but I find it essential so I can plan for the future. I like to periodically push my calories and carbs up so it keeps my body on its toes. Does it cause slowdowns? Yes, sometimes, but as long as the trend is down I'm ok with that.
The only person who can decide whether IP (or its alternatives) is right for you, is you. The only program that will increase your BMR is increasing your exercise and building muscle, preferably strength training with lots of protein snacks before and after. No diet can do that for you.
The reason BMR decreases on IP is because you are shedding body fat percentage. Fat, while not a desirable component of our bodies, actually does contribute to your BMR - but at a substantially reduced rate than muscle.
As your body mass decreases your BMR goes down anyway - this is normal, because a 100lb body has no need of the same caloric intake ratio as a 300lb one.
True, I think when people hear that word 'Paleo' it does come to mind about the all meat & coconut oil sort of diet (being facetious here ), but that is true that all the healthy 'old days' eating plans really did revolve around mostly vegetables with large amounts of meat during special periods of availability only. Thinking of hunter gatherers mainly. But that also goes for farming many years ago when a cow or pig was killed, the meat was the focus for many meals (due to worries about spoilage) and then the rest of the year was the veggies with fruits along with eggs etc.
Meds can have a huge reaction in the body, I'd check that out first with your doc and see if it isn't exacerbated by the medications, and if there isn't some other kind of med you can use for your anxiety.
It isn't all IP to blame, when you eat low VLC for a bit your body adjusts and needs less - lower BMR. If you go back to eating the way that gained your weight in the first place, you will get the same results. That's why it's so important to phase off properly.
It isn't all IP to blame, when you eat low VLC for a bit your body adjusts and needs less - lower BMR. If you go back to eating the way that gained your weight in the first place, you will get the same results. That's why it's so important to phase off properly.
Liana
I believe the research is about 3 weeks max of any restricted protocol the body will begin to turn down the metabolism. And use other methods to conserve energy. Nice little pdf from Gary Taubes, https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8cwjiw2qi...Bonus.pdf?dl=0
The metabolic turndown is why many in performance fields use a CKD, Carbnite, Carb backloading (for the top energy athletes, crossfit games type athletes) approaches. It keeps the body from finding homeostasis with the diet/ energy expenditure relationship.
Have you watched the documentary 'Perfect Human Diet'? It is interesting and includes actual paleontologist analyzing dug up civilizations. I really wanting to watch the new documentary Origins http://origins.well.org/ Their is a way to view it free. Just been busy.
1. Replenishment of glycogen stores = approx 5lbs
2. Water retention from sodium = possibly 2-3lbs
3. Full bowel from carbs without corresponding fiber or protein = anywhere between 5 to 10 lbs
4. Bloating from food intolerances - when your body is trying to recover from a less than agreeable reaction to a newly reintroduced food it's going to hold onto water to try and help flush it out
At 5'8 your BMR (assuming you're a healthy able-bodied woman) should be around 1750-1800 calories. Let's be nice and add 200 for physical activity to the top of that range. 2000 calories per day to maintain. You said roughly 2500 per day for 6 days would be a maximum gain of roughly a lb (working on the slightly averaged 3500 calories = 1 lb of gain). You haven't been on IP long enough to see a massive reduction in your BMR, unless you are a rebooter.
Keep drinking your water and eating your veggies and healthy fats and this will probably resolve itself. The fact that you are seeing bloat indicates it's probably a combination of all of the above.
Is IP a healthy diet? It depends on how you use it, how well you plan your real food within it and how much you understand about how your metabolism and body processes work and how IP is tailored in to those factors. It isn't the BEST diet out there, but it shouldn't be causing undue harm.
Many people disagree that you should be testing your body's boundaries while on IP, to see where your tolerances are, but I find it essential so I can plan for the future. I like to periodically push my calories and carbs up so it keeps my body on its toes. Does it cause slowdowns? Yes, sometimes, but as long as the trend is down I'm ok with that.
The only person who can decide whether IP (or its alternatives) is right for you, is you. The only program that will increase your BMR is increasing your exercise and building muscle, preferably strength training with lots of protein snacks before and after. No diet can do that for you.
The reason BMR decreases on IP is because you are shedding body fat percentage. Fat, while not a desirable component of our bodies, actually does contribute to your BMR - but at a substantially reduced rate than muscle.
As your body mass decreases your BMR goes down anyway - this is normal, because a 100lb body has no need of the same caloric intake ratio as a 300lb one.
Thanks, Amanda. Interesting data points. I guess I will have to see how my body responds by being back on Phase 1 because with the data you cite, I should see these 20 pounds come down pretty quickly - say within 2 weeks.
Thanks, Amanda. Interesting data points. I guess I will have to see how my body responds by being back on Phase 1 because with the data you cite, I should see these 20 pounds come down pretty quickly - say within 2 weeks.
Keeping fingers crossed for you, as I'm sure it was a nasty shock to gain that much unexpectedly.
Don't forget hormones...I blame EVERYTHING on hormones!
I remember a few years ago, I had gone 6 months eating very low carb...lost 60 lbs...went to a weekend retreat and ate whatever I felt like eating (lots of sugar) ...TOM came...when I got home two days later I had gained 13 lbs...it was like the perfect storm! A week later 10 or 11 of those lbs were gone. You'll get back to where you were...
Last edited by becky123abc; 02-10-2015 at 07:12 AM.
Our family health has improved by dumping grains and sugars even for the wife and she doesn't have weight issues.
I read the blog and followed another link about "safe starches". Very interesting discussion (I fell asleep with my head on the laptop I stayed up so late reading). Wylothar, I think I might follow the same type of maintenance that you plan. When I do add in carbs, I'll add in potatoes, sweet potatoes, and maybe rice (that just seems so wrong and from what I read last night is probably the bigger debate). Also, I think there are other types of paleo discussions about whether dairy is okay or not. I know I ate a lot of dairy during my last big successful diet (Atkins) and I lost and maintained quite well until I had multiple pregnancies and kids.
I read the blog and followed another link about "safe starches". Very interesting discussion (I fell asleep with my head on the laptop I stayed up so late reading). Wylothar, I think I might follow the same type of maintenance that you plan. When I do add in carbs, I'll add in potatoes, sweet potatoes, and maybe rice (that just seems so wrong and from what I read last night is probably the bigger debate). Also, I think there are other types of paleo discussions about whether dairy is okay or not. I know I ate a lot of dairy during my last big successful diet (Atkins) and I lost and maintained quite well until I had multiple pregnancies and kids.
Dairy is good for people who can tolerate it. Mark Sisson (one of the top tier people) is an advocate. A lot of people choose Raw dairy or goat cheese and milks. And it seems to be better tolerated. The milk and yogurts I personally will not be using but I will likely add some hard cheeses and fermented cheeses rarely. I already use grass fed butter. If people are super intolerant to dairy they can try ghee as it has almost all the proteins and sugars removed that would cause a dietary distress. It really depends on how your body will respond. I get a pretty big inflammatory response from dairy myself, the phlem starts almost instantly. It isn't new, even as a kid on eating normal dairy wrecked me.
Rapid Weight Gain
), but that is true that all the healthy 'old days' eating plans really did revolve around mostly vegetables with large amounts of meat during special periods of availability only. Thinking of hunter gatherers mainly. But that also goes for farming many years ago when a cow or pig was killed, the meat was the focus for many meals (due to worries about spoilage) and then the rest of the year was the veggies with fruits along with eggs etc.
