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The cheating hierarchy

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Old 10-07-2013, 05:51 PM   #16
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Lolo70!!!!! Holy cow look at your weight loss! You are doing it right!
Great advice. Cortisol is a beast!
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:30 PM   #17
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I have been trying to get up the courage to post this for a long time, but I was afraid it would devolve into everyone lecturing each other and fighting.

Knowing where foods rank has been very helpful to me. I thought it might be helpful to others. But as you can see, we can't even have that discussion here because everyone is too busy fighting. I should have kept it to myself.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 2much2do View Post
Some cheats are a whole lot more damaging than others. The longer I do Ideal Protein, the more I realize you should just never cheat.

However, most people at some point will. You'll have a special occasion or you'll be traveling and you will give yourself permission to cheat. It helps me to understand which cheats are the most damaging and which cheats are the least. If I do, through lack of planning or a failure of willpower, find myself in a situation where I'm tempted to go off plan, I try to stick with the least damaging cheats. I will ask myself - can I substitute this thing I'm planning to cheat on for another cheat that is less damaging? I have a hierarchy of cheats in my head. At the risk of creating some controversy, I want to know what you think the hierarchy looks like.

Here's an exercise. Look at the 12 items listed below and put them in order of most damaging to least damaging, according to the IP protocol. I'm curious to see if your list looks similar to mine.

Regular salad dressing Ranch, blue cheese, caesar
Fatty meat ribeye, strip, NY steak
Extra unrestricted protein packet
Complex carbs brown rice, potatoes, oat meal, corn, beans
Sugar + Fat doughnuts, French fries, ice cream
Off plan vegetables like artichoke hearts
Nuts
Simple carbs white bread, white rice, pasta
Fat free dairy - skim milk, yogurt, cottage cheese
Extra restricted IP bar
Fatty dairy cheese, sour cream, cream cheese
Sweet sauces - barbecue, teriyaki, cocktail
There are times when an emotional stress would make it so easy to resort to old habits of stuffing my emotions down with food. I just can't go there.

I feel fortunate I have been able to stay 100%. I agree that thinking about cheating makes me uncomfortable as well, but it is a reality that if we lower our guard and disregard the reason we are on IP, and stop holding ourselves accountable it is a slippery slope that will lead to no good.

We all have varying opinions and such strong feelings about this because it affects our relationships, our self esteem, and impacts our health for the rest of our lives. I am so glad that we have such passionate members who are supportive as well as tough on one another. Please everyone remember that intent and tone is very hard to convey in written format and to always try to imagine the good intent behind a message.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:39 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by 2much2do View Post
I have been trying to get up the courage to post this for a long time, but I was afraid it would devolve into everyone lecturing each other and fighting.

Knowing where foods rank has been very helpful to me. I thought it might be helpful to others. But as you can see, we can't even have that discussion here because everyone is too busy fighting. I should have kept it to myself.
By the way, I think it is very helpful to understand how these foods affect us. It will be important in maintenance to make the best choices. For now, on P1 and during phasing off, I think you could rank these all #1 as worst cheats. lol. Anything that is not OP would be #1 on the list.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:57 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by 2much2do View Post
Some cheats are a whole lot more damaging than others. The longer I do Ideal Protein, the more I realize you should just never cheat.

However, most people at some point will. You'll have a special occasion or you'll be traveling and you will give yourself permission to cheat. It helps me to understand which cheats are the most damaging and which cheats are the least. If I do, through lack of planning or a failure of willpower, find myself in a situation where I'm tempted to go off plan, I try to stick with the least damaging cheats. I will ask myself - can I substitute this thing I'm planning to cheat on for another cheat that is less damaging? I have a hierarchy of cheats in my head. At the risk of creating some controversy, I want to know what you think the hierarchy looks like.

Here's an exercise. Look at the 12 items listed below and put them in order of most damaging to least damaging, according to the IP protocol. I'm curious to see if your list looks similar to mine.
I was excited to read this thread and compare others ratings to my own.

To get back to the original purpose of this thread, here's my "hierarchy"...judge if you wish, but in order to keep my sanity I've chosen to eat a salad with regular dressing instead of a pizza...maybe it affected my losses, but I'm perfectly content with my progress.

4. Regular salad dressing Ranch, blue cheese, caesar
5. Fatty meat ribeye, strip, NY steak
12. Extra unrestricted protein packet
6. Complex carbs brown rice, potatoes, oat meal, corn, beans
1. Sugar + Fat doughnuts, French fries, ice cream
10. Off plan vegetables like artichoke hearts
8. Nuts
2. Simple carbs white bread, white rice, pasta
9. Fat free dairy - skim milk, yogurt, cottage cheese
11. Extra restricted IP bar
3. Fatty dairy cheese, sour cream, cream cheese
7. Sweet sauces - barbecue, teriyaki, cocktail

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ72 View Post
Wow! I always love to read the responses when somebody mentions the "c" word!
Remember folks that we are all adults here and answer directly to ourselves. What we do and don't do only hurt ourselves.
I strongly applaud all the 100% IPers out there, and I myself am staying 100%. I do not believe this thread was started to encourage cheating and I do not think that anybody should be chastised for this post. We are all entitled to our opinions. What we believe and don't believe is up to us. If you don't like what you have just read then carry on.
Remind me to NEVER mention if I cheat... WOW
We'll said.

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Originally Posted by DJ72 View Post
Very well stated!
Had the cheating post been put under the 100% thread I would have found that completely disrespectful.
Now having been at the rath of a post I totally understand why some people tend to just lurke and not post. Sad really because there are so many amazing people here!
So true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2much2do View Post
I have been trying to get up the courage to post this for a long time, but I was afraid it would devolve into everyone lecturing each other and fighting.

Knowing where foods rank has been very helpful to me. I thought it might be helpful to others. But as you can see, we can't even have that discussion here because everyone is too busy fighting. I should have kept it to myself.
I'm glad you shared. I'm curious as to how your list compares to mine. Would you mind sending it to me in a private message?
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:01 PM   #21
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I hate that I feel like I have to defend myself. I have been on IP since July 4, reached my goal weight (the lowest weight I have reached as an adult), and cheated just a few times. Those times mostly involved work events where it would have been extremely conspicuous to stay on plan.

When I'm in a difficult situation and I look at the various options, it's important for me to know whether I'm better off eating that salad with nuts in it (and hoping I can pick them all out) or chicken breast with a slice of cheese melted on top. Which is worse for me?

I didn't realize my situation was so unique. I do have a very intense job working with lots of elected officials, chief executives and other influential people. It's just not always possible for me to slip out of an event and eat my own food. I don't always know how long I will be at an event. I think I've done an excellent job staying on plan considering my circumstances and my results show that.

I'm really surprised at the attitudes here. dak1lls - I appreciate your outlook on all of this. But do you honestly believe that eating a doughnut is just as bad as eating extra vegetables? Or that eating french fries is the equivalent of eating an extra unrestricted packet? To me, there is a distinction and it is an important one.

Lisa - you posted the link to the Real Cost of Cheating - as if I haven't read that document a dozen times. I get it. I really do. Cheating is bad. But having extra fat or extra protein doesn't compromise your results to the same degree that carbs do. I could eat some almonds and still stay in ketosis. But 3 bites of a doughnut and I'm going to be paying for it for a week.

As I leave phase I this week and start trying to learn to eat in the real world, I think these distinctions matter. I'm sorry I'm the only one who feels that way. I don't think this group is the right place for me.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:04 PM   #22
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Hi 2much2do,

I am sorry that you are getting such a hard time. I think that your question is a valid one. I would re-phrase it as which cheat is most likely to bring me out of ketosis. Ideally, we would all be 100% on plan all the time, but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.

I am also new here. I was humming along really well for three weeks 100% on plan and then had a really stressful event come along last week and I ate 2 additional restricted packets one day. I was ravenously hungry and really miserable for the next week (e.g., headaches, dizzyness). I still lost 6 pounds last week, but the cheat made me miserable because I shifted myself right out of ketosis. If I had cheated with something that had fat and/or protein but not carbohydrates, it would have still been a cheat that slowed down my progress, but at least I probably wouldn't have had the miserable follow up week trying to get back into ketosis.

I would say that the cheat with the least amount of carbohydrates would be the least damaging. I am not planning on cheating any time soon, but if I slip up, I will try to make sure that I am eating additional protein/fat and not additional carbohydrates.

Of course I am new here, and many people who have done well on this program advocate 100% on plan. I don't disagree. I just think that we need try NOT to stray in a direction that makes it incredibly hard to get back on the path, and need to forgive ourselves when we slip up.

Best,
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:08 PM   #23
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I also think it is a very different outlook once you have reached goal than it is when you're on P1 and facing a plan for HOW TO STAY ON PLAN no matter what.

An IP coach would consider ANY deviation from the P1 sheet a "cheat"

The tone of the original post makes it sound like the cheats are planned, rather than planning to NOT cheat. Most of the folks on P1 are working hard at staying OP.

Again, a totally different outlook once you reach goal (first of all, probably shouldn't be calling it "cheating").

I think what we have here are people on 2 different tracks.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:10 PM   #24
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Interesting question:

Here's my hierarchy:

5. Regular salad dressing – Ranch, blue cheese, caesar
11. Fatty meat – ribeye, strip, NY steak
12. Extra unrestricted protein packet
1. Complex carbs – brown rice, potatoes, oat meal, corn, beans
2. Sugar + Fat – doughnuts, French fries, ice cream
10. Off plan vegetables like artichoke hearts
8. Nuts
3. Simple carbs – white bread, white rice, pasta
9. Fat free dairy - skim milk, yogurt, cottage cheese
6. Extra restricted IP bar
4. Fatty dairy – cheese, sour cream, cream cheese
7. Sweet sauces - barbecue, teriyaki, cocktail
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 2much2do View Post
I hate that I feel like I have to defend myself. I have been on IP since July 4, reached my goal weight (the lowest weight I have reached as an adult), and cheated just a few times. Those times mostly involved work events where it would have been extremely conspicuous to stay on plan.

When I'm in a difficult situation and I look at the various options, it's important for me to know whether I'm better off eating that salad with nuts in it (and hoping I can pick them all out) or chicken breast with a slice of cheese melted on top. Which is worse for me?

I didn't realize my situation was so unique. I do have a very intense job working with lots of elected officials, chief executives and other influential people. It's just not always possible for me to slip out of an event and eat my own food. I don't always know how long I will be at an event. I think I've done an excellent job staying on plan considering my circumstances and my results show that.

I'm really surprised at the attitudes here. dak1lls - I appreciate your outlook on all of this. But do you honestly believe that eating a doughnut is just as bad as eating extra vegetables? Or that eating french fries is the equivalent of eating an extra unrestricted packet? To me, there is a distinction and it is an important one.

Lisa - you posted the link to the Real Cost of Cheating - as if I haven't read that document a dozen times. I get it. I really do. Cheating is bad. But having extra fat or extra protein doesn't compromise your results to the same degree that carbs do. I could eat some almonds and still stay in ketosis. But 3 bites of a doughnut and I'm going to be paying for it for a week.

As I leave phase I this week and start trying to learn to eat in the real world, I think these distinctions matter. I'm sorry I'm the only one who feels that way. I don't think this group is the right place for me.
I completely see what you are saying and simply was trying to show you the hierarchy I have placed on these items. You asked how others would place these in the hierarchy of cheating and I answered truthfully.You stated, "to me there is a distinction". Each of us makes the decision on how we will or are able to follow IP; based on varying factors. Our schedules and jobs being a vital factor. My distinction, based on my own life is that they all rank #1. I have unfortunately failed to plan and been in a position where there was no "good" option that was OP. I ended up drinking water and not eating until later. It may not work for everyone and always depends on the circumstances. It doesn't mean I don't live in the real world. It simply means I made a different decision. You should not feel you are defending yourself if others express a differing view.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:19 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2much2do View Post
I hate that I feel like I have to defend myself. I have been on IP since July 4, reached my goal weight (the lowest weight I have reached as an adult), and cheated just a few times. Those times mostly involved work events where it would have been extremely conspicuous to stay on plan.

When I'm in a difficult situation and I look at the various options, it's important for me to know whether I'm better off eating that salad with nuts in it (and hoping I can pick them all out) or chicken breast with a slice of cheese melted on top. Which is worse for me?

I didn't realize my situation was so unique. I do have a very intense job working with lots of elected officials, chief executives and other influential people. It's just not always possible for me to slip out of an event and eat my own food. I don't always know how long I will be at an event. I think I've done an excellent job staying on plan considering my circumstances and my results show that.

I'm really surprised at the attitudes here. dak1lls - I appreciate your outlook on all of this. But do you honestly believe that eating a doughnut is just as bad as eating extra vegetables? Or that eating french fries is the equivalent of eating an extra unrestricted packet? To me, there is a distinction and it is an important one.

Lisa - you posted the link to the Real Cost of Cheating - as if I haven't read that document a dozen times. I get it. I really do. Cheating is bad. But having extra fat or extra protein doesn't compromise your results to the same degree that carbs do. I could eat some almonds and still stay in ketosis. But 3 bites of a doughnut and I'm going to be paying for it for a week.

As I leave phase I this week and start trying to learn to eat in the real world, I think these distinctions matter. I'm sorry I'm the only one who feels that way. I don't think this group is the right place for me.
It may be helpful to realize that everyone's job is important. I'm not quite sure why posting how "influential" the people you work with are is relevant to this conversation. I work with critically ill patients. Some people who post here are teachers of special needs children. And, yes, there are even some very important stay-at-home mothers. EVERYONE's job is important.

If you had begun this thread by stating you would soon be leaving stage 1 (which you just now mentioned after explaining how important your job was) then maybe the responses you received would have been different. But you entitled it "cheating hierarchy" and stated that everyone cheats, which they do not.

And I'm still trying to understand how elected officials and influential people would cause you to not follow protocol, as you have obviously been following it up until now and have done very well!

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Old 10-07-2013, 08:17 PM   #27
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almonds
cheese
avocado
peanut butter

all good fats with hardly any carbs

good luck in your weight loss journey....
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:18 PM   #28
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Default My list

1. Extra unrestricted protein packet
2. Off plan vegetables avocado, artichoke hearts, carrots
3. Nuts
4. Regular salad dressing Ranch, blue cheese, ceasar
5. Fat free dairy
6. Fatty meat ribeye, strip, NY steak
7. Fatty dairy cheese, sour cream, cream cheese
8. Extra restricted IP bar
9. Complex carbs brown rice, potatoes, oat meal, corn, beans
10. Sweet sauces barbecue, teriyaki
11. Simple carbs white bread, white rice, pasta
12. Sugar + Fat doughnuts, French fries, ice cream

I have to eat at catered events quite often, so keep in mind that I'm usually trying to pick things out of meals that have already been prepared. That's my context.

I listed the unrestricted packet first. I still exercise (cardio only), so my coach has indicated that if I get hungry, I can do an extra packet. So that is my first fallback. I've only had to do it twice. But usually if I get hungry, it's because I worked out too long or too hard.

I put the off plan vegetables second - mainly because the quantities are usually really small. When I order the steamed vegetables at Rumbi's, they can't take the carrots out. So I end up having to pick out shredded carrots. I never can get every last one. But I figure I'm better off eating a few shreds of carrots than ordering anything else on the menu. I've had the same thing happen with salads that show up and have artichoke hearts in them. Sometimes they hide in the lettuce and it's hard to pick them all out.

Nuts are a toss up. My coach tells me I can eat a few almonds or pistachios and not affect my ketosis. So if those are in a salad, I try to avoid them, but I don't feel like I have to be fanatical about it.

I've only had regular salad dressing once - when I ran out of dressing packets. I order it on the side and just dip a little lettuce in it to lubricate my salad. I think it's better to have the lettuce and vegetables and use a little dressing than to go all day without eating.

I put carb + sugar at the very bottom. I just don't think there is a worse cheat than that. Some of you have put the sauces at the bottom, but those are usually in small enough quantities that they wouldn't give you overwhelming cravings the next day. I know if I ate a bunch of cookies or other desserts, I would have great difficulty saying no to such things the next day.

Princess Peacock - please don't respond to any more of my posts. I don't come here to be insulted and misrepresented. I come here to support and be supported. Your posts are not helpful to me. Thanks!
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Princess Peacock View Post
It may be helpful to realize that everyone's job is important. I'm not quite sure why posting how "influential" the people you work with is relevant to this conversation. I work with critically ill patients. Some people who post here are teachers of special needs children. And, yes, there are even some very important stay-at-home mothers. EVERYONE's job is important.

If you had begun this thread by stating you would soon be leaving stage 1 (which you just now mentioned after explaining how important your job was) then maybe the responses you received would have been different. But you entitled it "cheating hierarchy" and stated that everyone cheats, which they do not.
And I'm still trying to understand how elected officials and influential people would cause you to not follow protocol, as you have obviously been following it up until now and have done very well!
Princess Peacock,

I can't speak for the original poster, but I don't think that she was implying that she has trouble with the plan because her job is so important due to working with influential people. I don't think that she was implying that her job is more important that those of the other people on the board.

I think that her point is that she works with people who are, or at least think they are, really important and who think that she should be able to completely organize her life around their changing schedules and drop everything at a moments notice. In jobs like this, if are far from the top of the hierarchy, when the important person or people say "jump" you have to jump. The schedules change or are revised constantly and many, many professional work events involve food. Also, if it looks like you aren't eating the food provided at the event and your supervisor or co-workers notice it can cause serious problems in a field where appearances matter so much. I don't work in politics, but I have had a job with some similar challenges and I can't image that it is easy to stay on plan under those circumstances.

Other jobs may make it difficult to stay on plan for other reasons. Other life circumstances may make it harder or easier for some to stay on plan than others. For example, I realize that it is much easier for me to stay on plan than for a mother or father who has to prepare separate meals for children.

I don't think that she was trying to explain why it is harder for her to stay on plan, I think she was just describing why she feels like it is hard for her to stay on plan.

Anita
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:28 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Princess Peacock View Post
It may be helpful to realize that everyone's job is important. I'm not quite sure why posting how "influential" the people you work with are is relevant to this conversation. I work with critically ill patients. Some people who post here are teachers of special needs children. And, yes, there are even some very important stay-at-home mothers. EVERYONE's job is important.

If you had begun this thread by stating you would soon be leaving stage 1 (which you just now mentioned after explaining how important your job was) then maybe the responses you received would have been different. But you entitled it "cheating hierarchy" and stated that everyone cheats, which they do not.

And I'm still trying to understand how elected officials and influential people would cause you to not follow protocol, as you have obviously been following it up until now and have done very well!
I think she was just trying to explain that her job isn't as flexible or as regimented as other professions might be. I doubt she was insinuating that her job is more important than anyone else's. I absolutely understand this. On most days my job is very structured and what I have for lunch is up to me. There are days however, like today, where my boss pulls me away for an unexpected working lunch at a pizza restaurant. I can't just pull out my shaker and my foil pouch in the middle of the meeting and start mixing up my lunch. So I chose to opt for the salad bar with light ranch dressing and pass on the pizza. This way I'm eating with the group, not being disrespectful to the host, and still losing weight.
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