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One fruit kicking yoo out of Ketosis?

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Old 09-14-2012, 03:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by slow2lose View Post
Guys I specifically said I wasn't planning on sabotaging my diet by cheating but I was curious how physiologically one could get kicked out of ketosis and what would cause that to happen.

I'm also very interested in learning about how the body uses the macronutrients - ESP where lifting weights and cardio is concerned, and I'm very interested to understand the physiology behind why you should not exercise on this program although I'm beginning to think there is a simpler answer than what I thought. I think it's simply due to the extremely low cals and energy (or lack thereof) level.

I am one of those ppl that need to understand stuff - whether it's a medical procedure or a new piece of electronics or a diet.

John - I was going to PM you but I can't yet - I have some questions.
When you have enough feel free to PM me.

The technical answer to energy needs of the body with exercise is compicated and I will admit my knowledge only scratches the surface of the biology and chemistry involved in the physiological processes.

That said - a simple answer is this. It's not a matter of having enough energy to do the exercise it is not having the ability to recover.

To Muffassia - no offense intended but that is not how it works. Fat cells are emptied of fat, not killed. They are emptied when the body needs more energy than you're eating. It's an equation of energy.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:29 PM   #17
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Obviously, they are not killed. As Bachelor of Physics, my grammar tends to simplify on forums.

Muscle is a vital part of fat cells being emptied, that is a lot of what this diet is based on.
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Old 09-14-2012, 03:39 PM   #18
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Obviously, they are not killed. As Bachelor of Physics, my grammar tends to simplify on forums.

Muscle is a vital part of fat cells being emptied, that is a lot of what this diet is based on.
Maybe we have a language barrier? How are muscles (as most people think of them) vital to fat cells being emptied? You're not exercising much on the IP diet. A lb of muscle at rest uses about six calories a day compared to a lb of fat which uses about 2 calories per day.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:20 PM   #19
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Because of that exact fact, your body folds back into storing fat as extra muscle burns more calories. So, naturally, if you build too much muscle, your body will store everything you take in, even if it is minimal.

Same reason that you take another IP packet when you sweat too much, because you need to compensate for the extra calories used up by the muscle.

So I revert my previous statement. Muscle does not actually empty fat cells, but it sure has a great deal of influence on the process.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:16 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JohnP View Post
When you have enough feel free to PM me.

The technical answer to energy needs of the body with exercise is compicated and I will admit my knowledge only scratches the surface of the biology and chemistry involved in the physiological processes.

That said - a simple answer is this. It's not a matter of having enough energy to do the exercise it is not having the ability to recover.

To Muffassia - no offense intended but that is not how it works. Fat cells are emptied of fat, not killed. They are emptied when the body needs more energy than you're eating. It's an equation of energy.
BTW I bookmarked Lyle's page and have been reading tons of his articles. Very interesting stuff.

The lack of exercise on this program is my biggest problem with it. I plan to do this program in Phase 1 for the month of October only and wherever I am at the end of the month I don't care - that is when I'm starting Phase 2. I'm 123 pounds now and 28% bodyfat so we will see. I'm not willing to give up lifting weights for any longer than a month. The cardio doesn't bother me so much.

The reason IP appeals to me is because I'm sick of Weight Watchers - which I will admit I ate way too many carbs on. When the limitation is points only, it's hard to change what you eat. I want something strict (if not I do tend to go off program), somewhat easy and fast. This seems like a good option. Left to my own devices I don't do so well. I need accountability big time (which is why I have to work out with a trainer).

I hope it works for me fast than WW did - a whopping half pound a week. In 14 weeks on WW I lost 8.5 pounds. Painful. Demotivating.
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:55 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by scorbett1103 View Post
John - have you thought about just starting a Lyle McDonald forum, rather than constantly pitching it here? I can appreciate differing opinions, but seriously.

And nobody will crucify ANY member of this board for using creamer. We support each other and help each other try to be as successful as possible. To imply otherwise is to suggest that what happens here is mean-spirited, which is the opposite of the truth.
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On the support - I agree this forum is great at support. It is also rather dogmatic for being 100% OP which in my opinion is good for those who can do it but for those who can't? A little bit of creamer in coffee won't make a single bit of difference. 25 calories a day, every day, would amount to a theorical difference of less than 3 lbs over the course of a year but if it helps someone stay compliant to the rest of the protocol because it helps them keep their sanity I would argue it is completely worth it.

I really was torn whether or not to comment on this, especially since it is a bit off topic, but it's been bugging me to the point that I had to voice it or drive myself nuts.


I've watched the IP threads with great interest, because I've been researching and considering a PSMF for some time, and the IP forum is the most active PSMF on 3FC.

That being said, I do not feel comfortable posting in IP threads (though I do occasionally, as I'm doing now, endure the discomfort to post anyway - I envy John his courage to do so regularly). I feel uncomfortable because of the way I've seen IP followers (and I'm talking name-band products, from the centers, with the coaches...) treat IP followers who aren't 100% compliant. Even when a person mentions a 1% deviation, I've seen them attacked by other IP'ers who are managing 100% compliance. If mean-spiritedness is not at work, it isn't apparent to an outsider (and it doesn't inspire me to become an insider).

The IP threads may be mostly supportive, but the crucifixions still are occuring often enough for me to decide to keep my PSMF experiments to myself. I read the IP thread, but I rarely post because of the fear of attack.

I almost kept quite about this and just continue lurking, but I thought that the IP forum might want to know that this is a very real concern of people who would like to try something like IP, but who are afraid of commenting or even asking questions because of the attacks they've seen in the forum for anything other than 100% name-brand compliance.

Ironically, I only feel comfortable saying any of this, because I've noticed that the IP forum has been getting much better in this regard. Most members seem to be much more sympathetic and tolerant of questions and disagreements (even from "outsiders"). If I had not seen more IP'ers accepting and even defending the questioners, the compromisers and even the outsiders, I would not have bothered sharing my feelings today.

However, overall the IP environment on 3FC still does seem rather hostile to outsiders to me, so I would also encourage John (or anyone who has the time and desire) to open a more welcoming thread to those of us who want to do something sort of like IP, but not exactly IP.

Personally, I don't see why it can't be done in the IP fourm. I usually follow an low-carb exchange plan. There is no exchange plan forum on 3FC, so I frequently post in the calorie counters and the Weight Watchers forums (which are sort of like, but not exactly like exchange plans). I frequently post in the low-carb forums even Atkins with no problems, but I can't post freely here.

I'm not trying to hurt or offend anyone, just trying to communicate why I don't feel comfortable posting here, and why I don't frequently post even if I think I have something potentially helpful to say, or when I have a question about IP. It's just not worth the potential backlash.

I'm not even sure it's worth the backlash this time, but I felt that if I didn't say it, I would be contributing to the problem.

Whether in the IP forum or elsewhere, it would be great to have a more welcoming space for those who wish to follow, modify or get more information on PSMFs including IP. Until there is, I'll have to continue lurking until such a forum does develop, or until the IP threads become less hostile to compromisers and ousiders.

I do want to thank all of the IP posters who have been supportive of and patient with all of us outsiders and non-100%ers. I'd also like to reiterate that I see the IP forum moving in that direction (or I wouldn't have said any of this today, as it would have inspired such a flame war that the moderators would have had to delete it anyway).

I'm hoping that I expressed this kindly enough to have it received in the loving way it was intended, so that it doesn't have to be deleted or heavily edited by the moderators.
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:15 PM   #22
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kaplods, since you singled me out I wanted to respond.

I am in agreement with you that attacking and making people feel uncomfortable for asking questions on the forum is not OK. I can understand why folks get passionate about the program - it works, it's exciting, and for many it's a success after many "failures". Sometimes in the spirit of helpfulness, passion for what works can be overpowering. But yes, we still need to be respectful of other's questions, and ultimately their decisions one way or the other.

My concern with John's postings have been that in this and other threads, he is not asking questions. Perhaps it is not the intention, but his posts come across as telling people what THEY know is wrong and in some cases using language that seems a bit belittling. I sincerely hope that he is suffering from the same passion - something he knows that works based on his own learning and in the spirit of helpfulness may come across as overzealous. Over the internet it's very hard to discern tone and intent.

I would never want to be guilty of making visitors to this forum feel uncomfortable, and if that has happened, then I am sorry for my part in it.
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:28 PM   #23
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John, just wanted to say that I appreciate your explanations. Most people are more "knowledgable" on this all than I am and I'm trying to "understand" it too so all feedback is appreciated. People can choose to read or not, look things up or not. And we can all agree I'm sure that you have to do what is best for yourself -- some people need to be 100%, some couldn't stay OP without some cream in their coffee.

Edited: By the time I wrote this a few people had posted before me so I think I was feeling the same way as kaplods so thank you for stating your opinion. I hope people feel free to post and express concerns, variations etc. I personally am a big enough personality that I'm not offended if people don't agree with me, or whatever, but others may feel more intimidated to post. This forum is a GREAT support for us all. Hopefully we all "feel the love" ... or even the "wuv" once in awhile Sometimes that has to be "tough love" when we start to get off track...
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:13 PM   #24
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kaplods, I'm so sorry that you feel the way that you do about this forum. And there is no excuse for rude behavior towards anyone.

I am new here, only been a member for about a month or so, but I have searched seemingly forever on different topics (especially alternatives), and I've heard of some people being given a hard time over using alternatives, but I've never seen it in action myself (and when someone has said that, others have supported the alternative use; there is even threads just for alternatives). I hope this means that this list is indeed becoming more welcoming towards alternative and non-OP folks, as personally, I'm following the plan using alternatives also.

I do hope that you find a place to discuss other diets similar to IP. And I hope you will soon feel free to post more on this board, if you'd like to.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:13 PM   #25
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I know you may not like John's way of wording but I personally love it when he chimes in. I respect what he says because he gets to the point and I seems to be more factual then just an opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorbett1103 View Post
kaplods, since you singled me out I wanted to respond.

I am in agreement with you that attacking and making people feel uncomfortable for asking questions on the forum is not OK. I can understand why folks get passionate about the program - it works, it's exciting, and for many it's a success after many "failures". Sometimes in the spirit of helpfulness, passion for what works can be overpowering. But yes, we still need to be respectful of other's questions, and ultimately their decisions one way or the other.

My concern with John's postings have been that in this and other threads, he is not asking questions. Perhaps it is not the intention, but his posts come across as telling people what THEY know is wrong and in some cases using language that seems a bit belittling. I sincerely hope that he is suffering from the same passion - something he knows that works based on his own learning and in the spirit of helpfulness may come across as overzealous. Over the internet it's very hard to discern tone and intent.

I would never want to be guilty of making visitors to this forum feel uncomfortable, and if that has happened, then I am sorry for my part in it.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:19 PM   #26
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Read peter attia's blog now called the eating academy. He has excellent information on a variety of topics, especially ketosis and exercise. It helps explain many of these topics.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by scorbett1103 View Post
kaplods, since you singled me out I wanted to respond.

I am in agreement with you that attacking and making people feel uncomfortable for asking questions on the forum is not OK. I can understand why folks get passionate about the program - it works, it's exciting, and for many it's a success after many "failures". Sometimes in the spirit of helpfulness, passion for what works can be overpowering. But yes, we still need to be respectful of other's questions, and ultimately their decisions one way or the other.

My concern with John's postings have been that in this and other threads, he is not asking questions. Perhaps it is not the intention, but his posts come across as telling people what THEY know is wrong and in some cases using language that seems a bit belittling. I sincerely hope that he is suffering from the same passion - something he knows that works based on his own learning and in the spirit of helpfulness may come across as overzealous. Over the internet it's very hard to discern tone and intent.

I would never want to be guilty of making visitors to this forum feel uncomfortable, and if that has happened, then I am sorry for my part in it.

I was neither singling you out, nor specifically defending John. My post was not based on any one person or even one dozen people's posts, nor posts aimed at one person. If they were, I would simply use the ignore feature of this website, to ignore those posters most likely to be unusually critical. I've done so in other forums on 3FC, but that hasn't been a practical solution on the IP forums.

I have to say the IP threads are getting much more supportive, which is why I've been posting more, and hopefully soon will get over my gun-shy attitude towards IP. Most of you know I'm not shy anywhere else, but I imagine it will just take some time - and more positive experiences.

For a while (and it was quite a while back) whenever I did post in IP forums, no matter how I tried to phrase my posts, it seemed that someone would suggest or say outright that I wasn't really welcome or had no right to comment because I didn't really belong here.


As to John specifically I will comment, though I'm not sure whether John will see my commentary as defending him, or attacking him, and so I'll just say it's intended as neither - it's meant only to describe John as I see him.

John does sometimes come off as a know-it-all for two reasons.

One, he knows his sh*t. People who know a lot, come off as a know-it-all because they may not know it all, but they know so much that it can come across that way.

Two, and probably the most importantly, he doesn't apologize for what he knows, and he doesn't pretend to not know what he knows or pretend to agree with an opinion he disagrees with.

Personally I don't think two is a function of John being a jerk, it's a function of him being male. Not that his communication style is that of all men, but that it is one common to men (and many women too).

He doesn't say "you might be wrong," when he believes you're wrong, he says "you're wrong," and then tells you why he thinks so.

But you know what... if you can prove him wrong, he will not only admit it, he'll thank you for the education (I've been so thanked by him, and the first time it threw me for a loop).

John sometimes irritates me, but usually in the best of ways. He's one of the few people on 3FC willing to tell me, "Colleen, you're absolutely wrong," and he explains why he thinks so. When I've went to the science to prove MY point, I usually have to admit "John, you're right I was wrong."

And when I was able to prove my point, he admitted he was wrong as well.

I like John a lot. He says what he believes and he's confident in his opinions, and there's nothing wrong with that. Ironically he and I often say exactly the same thing in a post, and commenters will thank me and boo John. Why, because I used more of the "polite words," in sharing my opinion.

To be honest, sometimes I wish I didn't have to say all the polite words... pretending that what I know to be true is only my opinion not established scientific fact, pretending that I understand why people have strange ideas about how the body works, trying to be sweet to people who accuse me and others of being trolls simply because we stated an opinion...

I know that to get my opinion heard, I have to be very nice about it, even when I don't feel that I'm being treated with the same respect. Regardless of what you think of John, he doesn't expect to receive any less than he gives. If you can dish it out, he can take it. So if you think he's a jerk, call him a jerk. If you think he's wrong then tell him he's wrong and why (and he might just surprise you and agree)...

I've never known John to intentionally try to hurt anyone. If he does so, it's because he expects everyone to be as science-driven as he is, and to be as thick skinned as he is. And since he doesn't believe that anyone telling him "you're wrong" is being disrespectful, it doesn't dawn on him that telling someone else "you're wrong" would offend anyone.

Maybe I've just had a lot more experience with people who "tell it like it is" (in their opinion) without couching it in phrases like "in my opinion." I know it's their opinion, I don't have to hear them say it, to know that. I know it's their opinion by virtue of it coming out of their mouths or fingertips.

It may seem strange that I don't see John's posts as judgmental, considering I posted about the judgemental attitudes I've seen on the IP forum, but maybe because I'm reading what John is saying and not trying to interpret what he is saying. I don't assume he has any ill-intent, so I don't see any.

Of course, I live with a man who is more frustrating than John by about 1,000 fold. My husband has virtually no filter and says exactly what he thinks even if it sounds "horrible" to everyone else. He never even considers how it could be interpreted negatively, because he expects people, especially his friends and family to understand him and trust him enough to assume his intentions are not evil. He naively expects the same of strangers.

He doesn't understand why people don't always say exactly what they mean in the shortest most direct way possible. When I try to speak "politely" in the more traditional female-style to him, it drives him bonkers, because he wants me to get directly to the point, and stop beating around the bush, and why won't I say what I mean?

I tend to assume that John is simply speaking typical American male-english. Unfortunatley there is no male-to-female dictionary (although I shouldn't say that, there probably is, and I bet it's funny as all get out).
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:53 PM   #28
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I can completely appreciate what you're saying - and I'm fully willing to admit that my own joy at finding something that works likely colors my interpretation of posts, positively and negatively. I respect your assessment of John and his intentions

Oh, and just because you mentioned it, I had to look...apparently the dictionary does exist:

http://www.amazon.com/He-Meant-She-D...p/0446605026#_

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Old 09-15-2012, 02:45 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by scorbett1103 View Post
I can completely appreciate what you're saying - and I'm fully willing to admit that my own joy at finding something that works likely colors my interpretation of posts, positively and negatively. I respect your assessment of John and his intentions

Oh, and just because you mentioned it, I had to look...apparently the dictionary does exist:

http://www.amazon.com/He-Meant-She-D...p/0446605026#_

LOL -- I think I need to get that book for my hubby -- only problem is he won't READ it...maybe I'll "disguise" it by putting an NHL cover on it or something! Thanks for the smile.... off I go to Venus to make a shake...Mars is napping on the couch and I wouldn't want to wake him with my blender ....
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Old 09-15-2012, 02:58 PM   #30
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Read peter attia's blog now called the eating academy. He has excellent information on a variety of topics, especially ketosis and exercise. It helps explain many of these topics.
Thanks! I've been reading Lyle MacDonald's books as per John's recommendations, and I can see that Peter Attia's blog looks very interesting too. I love reading and learning about this stuff.
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