[hhm6]

Hey there,

I wasn't sure if this was a diet or not, but I thought I would ask on here to see if anyone else has attempted/had luck with this method.

Lately, I've been out and about a lot so I haven't been stringent with my calorie counting. I have been trying to eat when I'm hungry, and eat what I want so I'm not having crazy cravings, but the thing is it's too much freedom for me, so I'm constantly eating whatever is around. I am always bloated, uncomfortable, and just not feeling great so I'm going back to calorie counting! I also hate having to restart after every. single. weekend.

I know weight loss is calories in and calories out, but when I was reading about ketosis and it seems like macro-nutrients are also pretty important with this particular diet. So keeping carbs low and protein and fat pretty high from my understanding?

I tried doing this today (weighed everything on a scale, down to the tsp for sauces I added and what not)

These were my percentages today
Fat-59%
Protein-37%
carb-12% (this was around 43g today)

I ate pretty well, lots of veggies, tuna/meat/eggs, I felt fine, not deprived (granted it's day 1 so I guess I'll see how sustainable it is).

For those of you who have had success with this, have you continued with it after reaching goal? Also, if I'm supposed to keep carbs low, does it matter if these are from fiber vs sugar?? and how low do you go with carbs, anything 50g or lower?

[Locke]

Ketogenic dieting screwed up my sex hormones and I got very sick. Many people have had success with it, though. This is probably the best guide I've seen on it:

http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq

[Radiojane]

I'm not near goal, but I follow the ketogenic protocols and I have had most of my success that way. Check out the low carb forums here for more information.

I always recommend stopping by marksdailyapple.com and reading up on his carbohydrate curve. Basically anything under 50 can be consider ketogenic, but it depends on the individual body. I am for 20g and I don't do "net", meaning I don't subtract the fiber.

If you've never gotten into ketosis before, read up on the "carb flu" and give your body two weeks to adjust.

[hhm6]

Thank you both!

I have hesitations about doing this, just because I have always been on a 'calorie in calorie out' type plan so this is different, but I thought why not change things up a bit? I'm so bored of not losing anything (and I also cheat!)

It's definitely not easy though. Today I ate some Kolhrabi, tuna and mayo, so high in cals but carbs are low, maybe I'm eating the wrong stuff? I dont want to end up gaining on this either. I have my work cut out for me though, thanks for the links Locke and Radiojane! I will start reading them now.

Locke- did you get labs done? I'm also a little worries my once high cholesterol levels will return following a diet like this.

[Pattience]

Originally Posted by hhm6

Hey there,

I wasn't sure if this was a diet or not, but I thought I would ask on here to see if anyone else has attempted/had luck with this method.

Lately, I've been out and about a lot so I haven't been stringent with my calorie counting. I have been trying to eat when I'm hungry, and eat what I want so I'm not having crazy cravings, but the thing is it's too much freedom for me, so I'm constantly eating whatever is around. I am always bloated, uncomfortable, and just not feeling great so I'm going back to calorie counting! I also hate having to restart after every. single. weekend.

I know weight loss is calories in and calories out, but when I was reading about ketosis and it seems like macro-nutrients are also pretty important with this particular diet. So keeping carbs low and protein and fat pretty high from my understanding?

I tried doing this today (weighed everything on a scale, down to the tsp for sauces I added and what not)

These were my percentages today
Fat-59%
Protein-37%
carb-12% (this was around 43g today)

I ate pretty well, lots of veggies, tuna/meat/eggs, I felt fine, not deprived (granted it's day 1 so I guess I'll see how sustainable it is).

For those of you who have had success with this, have you continued with it after reaching goal? Also, if I'm supposed to keep carbs low, does it matter if these are from fiber vs sugar?? and how low do you go with carbs, anything 50g or lower?

It sounds silly to say this but i am saddened to read that you consider this the only option to what you've been doing. So ketosis is a physical condition that takes place in the body when your body starts burning proteins for energy instead of carbohydrates. The function of carbohydrates is energy supply. the function of fats is energy storage. The function of protein is muscle building, tissue building and repair. These are the basic functions of the macro nutrients. People on a low carb diet change the function of the foods they eat. They force their body to behave differently to its natural orientation. If you are going to follow such a diet, you should do a fair bit of research into it and not be at all casual about it. You should understand the potential risks and dangers and should understand how your body is doing all of that change. So that a) you don't accidentally bugger up your system b) so that you make the program the way you intend it to work, c) so that you can avoid potential long term damage.

However, i think you do not need to go this route really. You just need to learn more about nutrition and more healthy ways of eating. Clearly the IE way isn't working for you as a weight loss tool. In fact i don't think IE is a weightloss tool per se. I think its a way of eating when you are at the right weight to begin with but i know some around here would argue with that. Like everything, IE requires discipline too.

So what i suggest is
a) don't restrict your calories so much. Many people do that and that's why they end up hungry and breaking their diet. Instead find your daily calorie intake from a loss of half a pound a week. That way you shouldn't have too much hunger to deal with but you will still lose weight at a steady pace.

b) Be aware of your macronutrients when you do plug in your calories into a counter. Keep your protein up. Just eat some at every meal. You want to aim for a ratio of approximately 25 - 35P to 40-65 C to 15-30 Fats . I prefer 30 55 25 but it doesn't matter to much if you are calories are correct.

the main reason for balancing this as far as i can tell for the sake of weightless is to maximise satiety. These proportions are normal in ordinary times too but when taking in fewer calories, we want to minimise hunger. Bearing in mind that a little bit of hunger means you are now burning fat.

So don't snack randomly. Try to eat three meals full of low calorie high nutrition foods. Always choose nutrition over ease of access. Thinking about vitamins and minerals as well. Just something to be aware of.

There are different ways to go about that. Some people would go for low fat dairy. I don't because i prefer foods that taste good. Some people go for skinless chicken breast and steamed broccoli day after day. I don't because i prefer foods that are interesting and taste good and also because i try to be vegetarian.

I eat lots of fruit and vegies, legumes, occasional seafood, whole milk, yoghurt and a small portions of cheese, nuts and seeds. I eat bread and pasta and rice to vary my meals but i've found that keeping my protein up means i have to eat less pasta and rice. Again thats my vegetarian limitation.

I use quality ingredients but i don't have a lot of money to spend on gourmet products so i go for what i can afford and keep it basic.

When i am out i will go to a japanese or korean eatery or other restaurant rather than cheap takeaways or i will have salad sandwich most of the time.

Sugar is a problem food for me so i have quit sweets totally. That helps a lot.

timing and being prepared with your meals is vital i find.

I drink a glass of wine usually, near the end of the day before dinner but wheni'm starting to get a bit hungry.

I don't exercise much but if i was running around a lot i would have to eat a bit more than i do. Currently my calories are 1400 but i started at 1650 per day.

[Radiojane]

With all due respect Pattience, we are not "Forcing" our bodies to do anything "unnatural" by entering Ketosis.

Our bodies are designed to burn the most readily available fuel source, and we're highly adaptable. Before we were fed a plethora of simple carbs, when we ate locally and seasonally available produce, ketosis would have occurred frequently and naturally. It certainly won't "bugger up" the system.

The original poster has stated that she's having issues with over eating, bloating and grazing. Ketosis generally dampens the appetite, so it may be worthwhile to try to just get a handle on those issues. It worked very well for me, I went from needing to eat nearly hourly to being able to fast with no ill effects (Not the aim here of course, but the point is that it has some beneficial effects). It is commonly used to treat epilepsy, and it shows great promise for alzheimers and other neurological disorders as well.

I would strongly, strongly suggest you do some more research so that you're fully appraised of what Ketosis is.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psycho...enic_diets.htm

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-ketosis/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/


HHM6, Only you can know if it works for you, but if nothing else you may find a short stint might help with the self control/freedom issues. It gives you a break from the physical hunger to work on the mental stuff.

[Locke]

Yeah Pattience I second Radiojane in that you're a little turned around on the subject of ketosis. There are plenty of guides on the internet and books on the subject, too. Reddit has one of the best ketogenic dieting communities around. You can find them at http://www.reddit.com/r/keto. Lots of support there and many people thriving.

The basic process of ketosis is that once you eat <50g carbs per day (the number is highly variable) your liver runs out of glycogen and your body starts running on ketones, which are produced by breaking down fats. There are certain organs that require glucose to run, parts of your brain in particular.

Your body will provide this necessity from the breakdown of protein. This is why keto people generally have macro targets and it's based on grams, not a percent. You need a certain amount of protein on this diet or else protein will be harvested from your muscles (not good). When you are doing keto you have to keep religious track of everything you eat. You will also probably feel lousy for the first few weeks- it's normal because your body is switching to a new energy source- fatty acid products.

Check out this link if you want to see your macro targets: http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/

[hhm6]

Pattience- I'm not really considering this as an only option, just something different to try since I've been stalled at my weight for sometime. I'm also bored of my meals right now, and they're pretty healthy in my opinion. I was interested because a lot of people on the bodybuilding forum follow this to drop weight a little faster so I began looking into it.

One thing that concerns me is that it's very easy for me to go over 50g of carbs. I logged in everything I'm eating today and so far I'm at 45g carbs but I do snack on things so this number might go up. I'm also afraid as soon I start eating more carbs, I'm going to retain a ton of water weight. I don't know if it's realistic or sustainable for at this point. I guess I'm just looking to try something different. Eating 1200 cals everyday for the last month or so and I haven't see a loss, so I'm getting bored lol.

I would much rather eat 50-100g carbs in vegetables and have a yogurt without feeling like I cheated on my diet. I need a little bit of sugar in my diet to keep my sanity!

Thank you all for the replies!

Radiojane- what do you eat to stay within the 50g carbs? I feel like it's hard! and do you eliminate sweets completely? I would imagine an orange/banana here and there could throw you out of ketosis?

[Radiojane]

I usually limit my carbs to green veggies and a little from sauces and cheese.

Lots of resources state that under 100 grams is low enough for weight loss. Mark Sisson's carb curve is one of them. Make that your goal and gradually lower if you want. Or do Atkins style and go keto low for a few weeks and then transition up. Play around and see what works.

I should state that I don't "Freak" about making sure I'm deep in ketosis. I do cheat occasionally, and my carbs fluctuate. If I find that I'm stalling or my energy is lagging, I will do a meat/egg fast to get back down into ketosis and build from there. If I stayed "hardcore" all the time I might lose a little faster, but it's just not worth it for me.

For me, some fruit here or there isn't the end of the world. If I all of a sudden eat 6 pieces of pizza? Then the next day I'm up 10 pounds in water.

I had a heck of a sweet tooth, and I was a carb junkie. Before I started, the naturopath told my bf that he had to go paleo for health problems, and I freaked. I cried. No way I was going to be able to give up all that stuff.

After the week it took me to detox from all the crap I ate before, I felt amazing and took it further to get into Ketosis. My cheats are never caused by cravings. I'm usually derailed by family plans or convenience. I do have a square of salted dark chocolate every night, and it assuages my sweet tooth.

[Pattience]

him, it sounds like snacking might be your your problem. You can just stop doing it. If you are serious about losing weight, you will be able to stop yourself. Its takes a mental decision. But if you are not in the right frame of mind, you probably won't be able to do it. When i started my diet i spent a few days talking to myself about resolve. This helped me over the first part. As the time has gone on, i need less resolve because sticking to my program has become second nature now and its easy for me to make the right choices all the time. I know that can change at any time. I can't afford to become casual. I can't afford to start nibbling away at things whenever i want. I eat something when i get hungry, not just because its there.

Carbs do not cause water retention, salt does.

Eating 1200 calories is too low. Eat more. Like i said reduce your calories only enough to lose weight. It gives you more choices of what you can eat and means your meals can be more interesting.

Can i recommend not thinking of yoghurt as sugar. It is a high carb food mainly but includes protein and fats. Thinking of yoghurt as a sugar just confuses the issue. Yoghurt is a healthy food. Especially if its got no added sugars. Sugar is best referred to as refined sugars as found in foods like sweets, jams, ice creams, chocolate, puddings.

Locke, Radio, - I don't think anything i've said is inaccurate. I've done plenty of research into the low carb ketosis question. Although i think it was radio jane who wrote that the body is not forced into doing anything unnatural etc… I contend this whole sentence is just a matter of semantics and a matter of opinion.

I didn't use the word forced but i do believe that the primary functions of the macronutrients are as i stated. It is easier, i.e. more efficient, for the body to burn carbs than protein for energy. And given the choice of two the body will always choose carbs first to burn because its more efficient. You know this. Low carb people just prefer to see it differently.

[Pattience]

I just had a quick look at two of the articles you posted radiojane. I thought they did not seem to be positive about using low carb as a weightloss tool.

I read the conclusions of the NIM study and the one written by the woman on epilepsy. I would suggest that diets recommended to manage difficult health conditions like those mentioned in no suggest that it is a good idea for ordinary people. There were a lot of things in the little bit i read that point to negative aspects of the diet as well pointers about the need for greater research. It seems to me that the weightloss advocates are selectively ignoring anything of a potentially negative nature.

That said, i am not saying that a short term use of the diet is dangerous. My experience with a balanced diet has shown me that its simply not necessary to go to such lengths to get over the carb cravings.

[Radiojane]

I'm on my phone so I can't link directly but please check out the study linked to in this article that explains how water is stored with glycogenp://www.marksdailyapple.com/water-retention-weight-loss/#axzz2vbjSAT3p

(Mda is not my only source just easiest to link to on a handheld held)

Short version: water is stored with carbohydrates when converted to glycogen.

I think telling someone that they aren't trying hard enough if they can't just stop snacking is less than helpful.

[hhm6]

Pattience-My snacking isn't too bad really. handful of almonds, babybel cheese or cherry tomatoes. When I said I snack a lot, I meant my carbs would be in the 50-100g region opposed to the ideal range of 50g and below.

I have been on a doctor directed VLC (very low calorie) diet before and she doesn't have a problem with me eating 1200 calories right now. To be honest, when the 1200 is veggies, you can get by with a lot of food for 1200 calories. I just feel that being on this regimen for months has gotten me bored so that's why I was interested in switching up macro nutrients.

I know salt can lead to water retention, but I was also under the impression carbs did the same? Isn't this why people lose so much water weight when they switch to a low carb diet?

My yogurt is a 'sugar treat' for me. I buy the activia lowfat blueberry, so it has about 22g carbs alone in it, a good portion of that is sugar too (I could get a lot more veggies out of this number) but it satisfies my sweet tooth.

I hope I'm not sounding argumentative or anything. I just wanted to know who has had success with this diet in the long term. I didn't want to go buy sticks and checking (I can get obsessive about these things!) so I wanted to just switch up my eating.

Eating around 1200-1400 cals for sometime now so I feel like with this deficit I should be a little lower but I'm still in the 168-170 region. Maybe I'm just impatient?

Radiojane-when you say detox, do you mean not eatign carbs that day? I might start at 100g and see how it goes, today I'm around 90g and I was rather comfortable but I'm sure if I'm diligent I can go lower. I was also reading about the weird ammonia like breath, is that something you've experienced?

Also what sauces do you use?! I've seen some sample meals and wow they look so 'cheat' meal like, but they meet the macro nutrient ratios for people I assume.

Thanks for the replies!

[Pattience]

Originally Posted by hhm6

Pattience-My snacking isn't too bad really. handful of almonds, babybel cheese or cherry tomatoes. When I said I snack a lot, I meant my carbs would be in the 50-100g region opposed to the ideal range of 50g and below.

I have been on a doctor directed VLC (very low calorie) diet before and she doesn't have a problem with me eating 1200 calories right now. To be honest, when the 1200 is veggies, you can get by with a lot of food for 1200 calories. I just feel that being on this regimen for months has gotten me bored so that's why I was interested in switching up macro nutrients.

I know salt can lead to water retention, but I was also under the impression carbs did the same? Isn't this why people lose so much water weight when they switch to a low carb diet?

My yogurt is a 'sugar treat' for me. I buy the activia lowfat blueberry, so it has about 22g carbs alone in it, a good portion of that is sugar too (I could get a lot more veggies out of this number) but it satisfies my sweet tooth.

I hope I'm not sounding argumentative or anything. I just wanted to know who has had success with this diet in the long term. I didn't want to go buy sticks and checking (I can get obsessive about these things!) so I wanted to just switch up my eating.

Eating around 1200-1400 cals for sometime now so I feel like with this deficit I should be a little lower but I'm still in the 168-170 region. Maybe I'm just impatient?

Radiojane-when you say detox, do you mean not eatign carbs that day? I might start at 100g and see how it goes, today I'm around 90g and I was rather comfortable but I'm sure if I'm diligent I can go lower. I was also reading about the weird ammonia like breath, is that something you've experienced?

Also what sauces do you use?! I've seen some sample meals and wow they look so 'cheat' meal like, but they meet the macro nutrient ratios for people I assume.

Thanks for the replies!

Ah so snacking doesn't stall your weightloss it just maxes out your carbs if you were trying to limit them.

Well i don't know the end of the process but i would think if you've got excess protein in your diet for your daily needs, it will be stored in your body as fat while excess carbs are at first stored as glycogen before being turned into fat. I did just read that processing protein requires more water so that could be why you use up more water on a low carb diet. But i wouldn't be at all worried about glycogen in the muscles.

I mean i think we should remember that water is not fat per se so its not a component of our bodies that we are ordinary anxious to be rid of. And all you have to do to empty your glycogen stores is go and do some exercise. You burn glycogen at a greater rate than fat. If you've got water stored in your muscles in the form of glycogen that's a good thing. Its not permanent. Its liquid energy, ready to go. Glycogen is not bad. It will be turned into fat if you eat too many carbs and and don't use it up over the course of 2 days or so. I think i read its about 72 hours. The thing is if we've got bigger muscles we can hold those extra calories for longer before being converted to fat than if we don't have much muscle mass.

I'm not saying that 1200 is too low to be effective or that its risky. I"m just saying your weightloss will work better if its higher, especially if you need to stay on the diet for a longer period of time. The more calories you eat, the less hungry you are likely to get - in optimum conditions. That is why i am suggesting you increase your calories. And besides you've said that you are not showing much improvement at 1200. Its been reported many times on boards like this that people have noticed an improvement once they increase their calories from this lowest range. The body seems to start working more effectively. On one of the articles i suggest reading below, they explain why its good to have a high calorie meal at least once a week even.

We don't know the circumstances or what your doctor was thinking when she suggested you go on the vlc diet. Let me put it like this, some years ago, i started a diet program, which in all other respects i think was very good. they had done a big study on a bunch of women of a certain age and weight and it was a highly regarded institution. They said that people reported that if they could lose 2 pounds a week they'd be happy but less than than that they became despondent with the diet. (any diet). Note there women were not massively overweight, just average overweight. So i tried this diet which involved restricting calories in order to lose 2 pounds a week. I was just too hungry too often. I could not sustain it. It was the first formal diet i had tried since my youth. So now i have come to see that losing more slowly is easier because i am less prone to hunger between meals and that which i do experience, is easily managed.

Secondly the other place i come from with this recommendation is that a year or so ago i read and in-depth article about weightloss and why dieters consistently failed in the short and long terms published in a reputable national newspaper. It talked at length about how the body in a sense has a mind of its own, or a logic of its own and it has nothing to do with what you think you are doing. There is no communication between your body and your brain on this particular point - the point being when you restrict calories too severely for an extended period, the body starts to rebound and rebel against what you are doing. A hormonal response will cause uncontrollable hunger and you will be compelled to keep on eating until the weight is back on. And i think most people on this board have done that at least more than once even if they don't remember get so hungry. This happens, I recall them saying when you lose about 10% of your body weight. I would think that number isn't set in stone but is somewhat variable. However, the more restrictive your calories are the sooner you will experience the backlash. It talks about hormones that dictate hunger and tells that they can seem to be irrational.

I was never able to learn too much about this hormone until recently but i was aware of it.

So recently i've discovered a site called nutrition wonderland. This site gives a good explanation of what is known so far about how hormones impact on our appetites and weightloss and they admit that we do not know everything at this stage. Leptin is known as the hunger hormone. Seratonin, the mood hormone, is also involved in appetite. Insulin is involved in weight. Even dopamine is involved but i can't remember the story there. Then there's fibre. It helps. For more on how this all works i recommended reading the articles on that site.

[mars735]

Originally Posted by Pattience

It sounds silly to say this but i am saddened to read that you consider this the only option to what you've been doing. So ketosis is a physical condition that takes place in the body when your body starts burning proteins for energy instead of carbohydrates. The function of carbohydrates is energy supply. the function of fats is energy storage. The function of protein is muscle building, tissue building and repair. These are the basic functions of the macro nutrients. People on a low carb diet change the function of the foods they eat. They force their body to behave differently to its natural orientation.

This is factually incorrect, especially the part I bolded. Ketosis is a state of FAT BURNING when carbs are unavailable. As fat molecules are broken down for energy, they result in ketone bodies, of which there are 3 different types. These ketones bodies are used by cells to make ATP, the raw fuel for most cellular processes by which we live. Those ketones that are not used may pass through the kidneys into the urine or in our sweat, saliva, etc.

Protein foods can be metabolized to produce glucose, so a diet too high in protein calories but low in carbs could slow down your ketogenic weight loss, because of burning the glucose from protein before turning to fat for energy.

I question the meaning of a body's "natural orientation." It's a highly subjective term. What does it mean, really? Humans have evolved to be incredibly adaptable eaters, surviving on a wide variety of macronutrients in response to changing food availability. When it comes down to a specific individual, each of us is an experiment of one--what works for one person may not for another due to unique genetic, cultural, emotional makeup,etc.

We seem to often run into this issue on the 3FC forum of someone generalizing what works for them individually and attempting to discredit a different WOE or diet. Ketogenic diets have been used successfully for years by many people. At age 59-60, I lost 80 lbs on a ketogenic diet, and it was rapidly enough to keep me motivated. I'm going strong in maintenance for over 7 months and still sticking to non-ketotic low carb, 60-70g/day and occasional high carb fun days. My blood chemistry is fine and I feel great. I wouldn't presume to recommend it to someone else.

The main health issues as I understand them are that people with liver or kidney disease are not good candidates for a ketogenic diet. It's worth checking in with your health provider before starting the diet. Also it's important to drink a lot of water--my diet required 2 liters minimum--without going overboard.
Other issues may come into play if you are doing a ketogenic diet with high protein and/or fats as this could raise your blood lipids & cholesterol in a negative way. High amounts of animal protein, especially consumed in one meal increase the risk for kidney stones (and gout flare ups). But ketosis in and of itself does not appear to be the issue. Choosing a healthy ketogenic diet that is right for you and sustainable will determine if you are successful, by & large. It's worth doing some research to choose YOUR ketogenic diet; listen to your body and check in with your doc. There are so many ways to lose weight that work. Best of luck!