Rikku-
Don't listen to them. I also struggled and every time I went close to eating the way I needed to for my body I was scared off by the "eat more / eat healthy" crew. Even though I knew it was wrong for me.
Finally after 20 wasted years I stopped listening, signed up for a medically supervised -- low calorie - plan and lost all the weight -- finally.
To this day, if I post that here I will get all kinds of scare tactics that are not true. People say "oh you lost heart muscle" um, no, sorry, had that checked. I mean how disrespectful (or in denial) to say something like that to someone who paid for a medical plan? I mean I actually paid to ensure nothing was wrong with my body and now have proof that nothing went wrong and STILL people post that something must be wrong with my body.
People will say eating X way is not good for you, even when I present them with the facts that my blood tests never moved. (except for improvements)
I wasted 20 years listening to armchair experts online. Thank god I finally stopped listening -- and although I am sure this post won't go over well - I hope people at least see the alternate view.
Really? You ate only one meal every three days, and your doctor was ok with that?
Have you been listening to what we've said? I don't think anyone here argued against a medically supervised low-calorie diet. I know what I've said, and I said if OP was going to do any sort of vlcd, that she needed to be medically supervised, and that she should get her doctor (and ideally a dietitian) involved.
That's what you did, so why is it bad advice for her?
You say that you had medical supervision and periodically got blood work to PROVE that you were doing ok. Well that's fantastic - you did it the right way. I only want the same for OP.
Its all I've asked OP to do - to not to choose a path so drastic WITHOUT medical supervision.
There's nothing wrong with following a "medically supervised -- low calorie - plan," but that's not what OP is talking about. She's talking about eating one meal every three days - and we don't know whether that meal is high enough in calories or protein to sustain her without side effects - that's what a doctor will help her determine.
Medically supervised programs like Optifast, Medifast, Ideal Protein, HR and other medically supervised programs have been designed to minimize the risks, especially of cardiac damage. They do this with high-protein, low calorie (but not fat free) diets. Fat free low-carbing can be dangerous (resulting in what's been called protein poisoning or rabbit starvation - which can cause all sorts of unpleasant symptoms. It's usually only fatal if a person ignores the horrible symptoms - or has no choice but to as on the "wagon trains" 150 years ago.
Besides which no one told her that she IS losing heart muscle, just that it CAN happen (and it can even happen on medically supervised plans). Will it happen to everyone, or even most folks? Of course, not but even in russian roulette your odds of "winning" are better than losing, but would you recommend the game to anyone? "Hey, you'll probably survive," doesn't sound like the best plan to me.
Ideal Protein, Medifast, Optifast, HMR and the others have their risks, and sometimes the risks are worth it. Not everyone will have serious complications, but the people who HAVE experienced them are on this site too.
On this or any controversial issue, a person needs and should want to hear all sides before making such an important decision, and I'm very glad you posted in for the opposing viewpoint, but why not give OP the whole story? Why not push for the medical supervision that you so wisely chose?
There's a huge difference between eating one meal every three days and a medically supervised plan, designed to prevent the worst side effects and monitoring the vitals along the way so that problems can be detected and treated early.
VLCD's can work. I'm following a PSMD right now myself (protein sparing modified fast), but my doctor is closely supervising. I have an appointment Thursday for a blood draw and an appointment with the doctor in about a week. We got a call today that we have to reschedule the appointment because the doctor is going out of town, and I'm going to call the nurse tomorrow and ask her if it's all right for me to wait to see the doctor until January because we're going out of town the following week. I'll remind her of the diet I'm on and ask her if I should reschedule the blood tests too, or if I should get them this week anyway.
That however is not eating one meal of my own choosing (which may or may not be high enough in protein and other nutrients) every three days. While it's not explicitly stated, I think the assumption of ALL the posters has been that a doctor is not involved and has not been informed or consulted regarding that one meal every three days. And I even suspect that none of us were talking about being under medical supervision when we experienced the terrible side effects we did.
I didn't pass out or get a worn-out metabolism from one medically supervised vlcd. I passed out the first time under doctor supervision (and on the amphetemine) by ignoring the doctor's advice. I figured if 900 to 1100 calories was good, then 500 was better. My metabolism didn't plummet after one crash diet, but gradually eroded over time and dozens of crash diets (and by crash diets I mean diets well under the 800 calorie level (the lowest calorie plan a doctor EVER approved for me was 800 calories - and even then it was the low-end of a range, not a maximum).
Medical supervision really shouldn't be considered an "optional" part of the process. Oh you might get by with it, but you might not. Of the people I've met (including myself) who had the most severe side effects, most did not have that medical supervision (or had chosen to ignore the advice of their doctors).
Following a medically-supervised very-low-calorie diet is a legitimate and viable option. Not the right option for everyone and some people are going to opposed to them anyway (In hindsight, I'm not sure that I approve of my doctor prescribing amphetemines to a 13 year old, but at least I did have the medical supervision - so close that I went to the doctor every week for the first two months, and every month thereafter).
And that's all I'm asking OP to do: See a doctor, get a checkup and talk to the doctor about what she's currently doing and get information on medically supervised weight loss plans. See if her insurance and/or your budget can afford a dietitian and ask the doctor for a referral. If a vlcd is the right way to go, that's great - but get it done right and do it medically supervised.
I still however highly doubt that the doctor or a dietitian is going to advise eating one meal every three days, and if they DO - it's going to be a very specially designed meal. Not "eat whatever you want," not "eat as little as possible," it's going to be a meal carefully designed to be adequate in protein, electrolytes and other nutrients that will give the OP the best chances of success with the fewest
unpleasant side effects.
VLCD's with close medical supervision can work (especially if they're done successfully in as few attempts as possible. If a person has made repeated attempts at medically supervised plans, and it's only resulted in more weight gain - then maybe a vlcd isn't right for that person. However, it doesn't mean that a more drastic VLCD WITHOUT medical supervision would be a good idea.
Rikku-
Don't listen to them. I also struggled and every time I went close to eating the way I needed to for my body I was scared off by the "eat more / eat healthy" crew. Even though I knew it was wrong for me.
Finally after 20 wasted years I stopped listening, signed up for a medically supervised -- low calorie - plan and lost all the weight -- finally.
To this day, if I post that here I will get all kinds of scare tactics that are not true. People say "oh you lost heart muscle" um, no, sorry, had that checked. I mean how disrespectful (or in denial) to say something like that to someone who paid for a medical plan? I mean I actually paid to ensure nothing was wrong with my body and now have proof that nothing went wrong and STILL people post that something must be wrong with my body.
People will say eating X way is not good for you, even when I present them with the facts that my blood tests never moved. (except for improvements)
I wasted 20 years listening to armchair experts online. Thank god I finally stopped listening -- and although I am sure this post won't go over well - I hope people at least see the alternate view.
A medically supervised plan is much much different than starvation. The OP has given no indication of this being a plan that was suggested to her by a doctor. Following a plan like yours requires that one has faith in the medical professionals. I do not unfortunately, I have seen and experienced the harm that doctors cause. I am not an "armchair expert" on any topic other than being fat, being a binger, and being scared for my health and future. I can't even identify with what some bingers say which is "bingeing is triggered by dieting" which was not true for me.
OP you've made a few contradicting statements such as "I'm a very happy person" and "I'm so tired, I struggle every day" or "I've never binged" and then "I've learned self-control" and a few naive statements like "If it weren't beneficial at all, I don't think I would be seeing the weight loss" because who hasn't experienced immediate and dramatic results only to gain the weight back in a hot second and then some? Sometimes people learn the hard way and I think it's safe to say that you may not have much experience yet with these type of crash diets and how harmful they can be. I'm willing to accept that some people have to learn the hard way but come back and talk to us after this diet and we'll be here to support you no matter what the outcome. I'll be honest and way that the thought of going 2 days without eating sounds really frightening to me but I'm a mother of a toddler and I can't afford to be mucking around with my health like that, godforbid I don't have the strength to lift him or pass out in the middle of the day. Just please be careful and try to keep a protein bar or some nuts in your purse just in case.
Not dieting the healthy way almost cost me my life. Truly, I came very close to dying because of it. It made me a nonfunctional human being for a very long time, took years away from me that I will never get back, put me into debt because of medical bills, and left my body permanently damaged. It caused me to become both severely underweight and severely overweight, never healthy. I never thought what I was doing would cause any of that, but restrictive dieting can quickly turn into an addiction and an obsession.
I, and many others, would say just about anything to keep another person from going down that path. I don't see what is disrespectful about that.
Also, binging is a biological response to being underfed, not a sign of weakness or some sort of character defect. And it is not even close to the worst thing a restrictive diet can cause.
The bottom line is, if you want to be on a very low calorie diet regardless of the low long-term success rate, fine, but please do so only under medical supervision. And please be aware that these sorts of warnings come from a place of caring and respect, otherwise we wouldn't bother.
Last edited by GardenBurglar; 12-04-2012 at 09:42 AM.
Rikku you mentioned you did a lot of research on fasting. Can you post a link to where you learned about this plan you're following? I've never heard of it and I"m curious to read what you did.
In my opinion occcasionally fasting for 48 hours is fine and won't do any damage. Doing it all the time, unsupervised, might be ok. But it might not. Are you taking any medications? Did you talk to your doctor before starting this?
As for how sustainable it is - or if it will lead to binging - I think is highly dependant on the OP. It seems very unlikely that it is sustainable but ... I really don't know.
I'm the "resident expert" on intermittent fasting only because i've read about it daily for two years. Since I've never read about what the OP is doing - I've got no clue what the hormonal consequences are from a physiological perspective. I doubt they are good.
Plenty of muscle will be lost but ... maybe the OP doesn't care. Other than that I just say
I'm just tired. I'm so very tired of this battle I've been fighting since I was 8 years old.. and I do not need some person (not you) telling me that they gurantee I am going to binge. How disrespectful. Have they no tact at all? Surely there is a better way to reach out to people.
QUOTE]
There are plenty of people here who will sugar coat everything for you.
Raise your hand if you never had a problem with binging, but now binge because of some overly -restrictive diet sometime in the past..
(Raises hand)
I NEVER had these types of issues. Till i went on a very lo cal program. and i was eating a heck of a lot more than you.. dieted my way all the way down to 12% body fat, then binged/restricted my way back up all the way to 30% body fat.
And i am not a special snowflake in this regard. Your body will fight back, no matter how much willpower, discipline and self-control you have.
Of course, you may have hit the genetic lottery. You may be the 1 in 100,000 that will coast through something like this with no negative consequences.
And lets say you DID hit the genetic jackpot..... and you dont develop a binge eating disorder.... within a VERY short time period youre body is going to metabolically adaptly, harshly, efficiently and quickly. You wont be losing weight anymore. Youre body will maintain on one meal every 4 days......
I taught my body to maintain and operate, training for and running marathons on 1200 cals a day. This happend in the span of 3-4 months of a low cal diet. How did my body do this? fat loss stopped, completely. My reproduction shut down. my hair and nails stopped growing. My core temp dropped, my ambient heart rate dropped. I went into pre menopause at 30 years old
I understand wanting to get the weight off as soon as possible. But you also have to understand the idea of shooting yourself in the foot.
No amount of will power will prevent the binge from occuring, eventually, given that food is readily avaialble. It is a SURVIVAL instinct. It is subconcious. You may even find yourself binging in the middle of the night, half asleep, and wake to find food wrappers and crumbs litering your bed. your body will do what it has to do to survive.. End of story. And im sorry that the harsh reality is binge behavior.
Do you want me to say that this is a good idea? You would have a heck of a lot better luck, and prob a faster rate of fatloss, over time, if you did the 1 or 2 24 hour fasts/ week, and kept a moderate calorie deficit the rest of the time. That alone would yeild you your 2+ pounds of fatloss a week... coating to goal
At the rate you are going, you will see a large drop in scale weight fast, and then a halt (which you are already experiencing?) possibly a gain, as your body fights back... Eventually some fat loss (muscle loss?) will occur, but youll keep backsliding by subconciously eating more at your one big meal, or binging in the middle of the night, or binging all day long for that matter.
Thats the harsh reality of this way of eating. And if you dont believe me, theres hundreds on this site along that restricted and binged there way up to heavier than when they started. that never had food issues growing up. Almost any ED story will contain this component.
And theres quite a lot of famous female fitness models/trainers who write about how IFing ruined their lives and caused massive binging/restriction problems ( and they were doing IF the *right* way)
Dont get your feelings hurt, but you need to do more research on this. Lead with your mind, not your heart.
this article is completely anectotal, but does have links to studies.. it is however. WORTH YOUR TIME to read. Keep in mind while reading, these women were doing IF as prescribed
this article is completely anectotal, but does have links to studies.. it is however. WORTH YOUR TIME to read. Keep in mind while reading, these women were doing IF as prescribed
This was a very interesting read, and gave me some things to think about with my own experiments with IF.
Initially, I thought I couldn't do IF at all, because of my blood sugar issues (I'm IR/borderline diabetic).
Going more than a few hours without eating usually results in lightheadedness, dizziness, nausea, vertigo and SEVERE mood swings.
I don't do "miserable" weight loss anymore, so I eat before or as soon as I notice any weird feelings.
However, I did find that the more lowish-carb/paleo I ate, the longer I could postpone my first meal of the day without unpleasant consequences, but at the first sign of symptoms, I would eat (or hubby would beg me to eat because he was suffering from my moodswings even if I wasn't).
I've definitely found some of what the author says to be quite true of me, and I do wonder whether there are long term consequences of IF.
Over the past several months, and especially since starting IF, I've been experiencing an every-increasing number of menopausal symptoms. Since I'm 47, I just assumed that it was normal for my age and completely unrelated to the IF. Maybe I'll give up the IF for a couple months to see if they disappear.
I don't know that I want to prevent or delay natural menopause, but I'd rather not be helping it along. I've been more than a bit troubled by the increasing amount of hair appearing on my upper lip and chin and disappearing from my hairline and eyebrows.
It will be interesting to see if giving up IF affects the hair growth patterns.
this article is completely anectotal, but does have links to studies.. it is however. WORTH YOUR TIME to read. Keep in mind while reading, these women were doing IF as prescribed
What a great article, even if it is anecdotal. I've been seeing a lot lately about IF not being so great for women, though of course (just like with everything else) there are exceptions.
Oh, absolutely there are exceptions...to everything, right? But its kinda scary when you think you are following a highly reasearced and supported way of living, and then to have it completely backfire in such unexpected ways...
i knew pretty immeditely that IF was not for me... while i enjoyed the freedom of not thinking about food so often, and then being able to actually eat what i wanted when i did eat, i found that i was in a CONSTANT state of bloatedness....
I would dehydrate and lose water weight, and then my body would swing way far in the other direction after eating a huge meal, and it was wreaking havoc on my digestive system.
Thats something everyone needs to keep in mind.
first and foremost, the body wants, and will do what is has to do, to achieve homeostasis, and IFing through my body for a homeostasis loop... Sever water and glycogen retention due to the restriction. Outta whack eloctrolytes, outta whack hunger cues and hormone responses.. its a convoluted downward spiral.
Id be willing to bet the OPs 2 pound water gain is a result of electrolyte imbalance and water retention from glycogen overload.. and its gong to get worse, imo
I've heard so much about IF not being that great for women, and I found it to be true in myself. It just DIDN'T work for me at all, and I actually prefer smaller meals throughout the day. Not because that's one of the things that you hear about "keeping up your metabolism" but because I found it true when it came to my hunger patterns.
It's been working for me thus far, so I'm going to keep doing it.
I've met plenty of men and women that found intermittent fasting did not work for them but the article linked is not a good one in my opinion. The reason I say that is there is literally no detail on anything about what they were doing. None. Also - the idea that IF will drive someone to become a caffeine addict was strange.
Generally speaking the people I've found that don't do well on intermittent fasting are those people who are really into "clean" eating because it's difficult to get in the number of calories they require in a day.
I know, I feel like the only thing I can confidently advise people to do across the board is eat a lot of vegetables. Maybe lifting some weights too, but even that isn't a good fit for everyone.
We aren't even close to understanding how our bodies work, especially when it comes to weight management. We all react so differently to different things. All we can do is load up on info and painstakingly find out what works through trial and error (with a good dose of patience and self-love).
I actually prefer smaller meals throughout the day. Not because that's one of the things that you hear about "keeping up your metabolism" but because I found it true when it came to my hunger patterns.
My wife is the same way. She prefers to "graze" and never eats a lot.
It's frustrating for new people because they generally just want someone to tell them what to do but ultimately there are different ways to eat that fit better with one person or another. So figuring out what works best for you is really the key to long term maintinence.
the idea that IF will drive someone to become a caffeine addict was strange.
.
i know! that make me snort when i read it! It was more the overall tone of the article... purely anecdotal, but some very interesting and noteworthy experiences from well respected women.
i know! that make me snort when i read it! It was more the overall tone of the article... purely anecdotal, but some very interesting and noteworthy experiences from well respected women.
Yea - but if they were following a 14/10 eating pattern it's hard to imagine a lot of the things they're talking about happening. On the other hand - one mentioned the warrior diet which is more of a 22/2 pattern.
Still - I'm glad you linked it and I'm glad I read it.
I've met plenty of men and women that found intermittent fasting did not work for them but the article linked is not a good one in my opinion. The reason I say that is there is literally no detail on anything about what they were doing. None. Also - the idea that IF will drive someone to become a caffeine addict was strange.
I agree that the article is weak on fact, implying that the author is referring to research, but not really citing or describing any research.
However, even so it piqued my curiosity in looking for the research she appears to be referring to.
However, it was actually the "weird" bits that intrigued me the most, because they so jived with my experience (could be a strange coincidence).
My caffeine use fluctuates, but when I started IF I was in a low-cycle. At most I'ld have one caffeinated diet soda per day, often not even that.
Then when I started experimenting with IF, I found myself using more and more cafeine (even beyond what is my normal "max"). I started making hot and cold tea for myself (unusual, but not "whacko" for me), but I was even craving and considering COFFEE (which anyone who knows me, knows I DETEST THE STUFF with a crazy passion, always have and always will).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnP
Generally speaking the people I've found that don't do well on intermittent fasting are those people who are really into "clean" eating because it's difficult to get in the number of calories they require in a day.
This I think has been sort of true for me. My eating isn't always super clean, but my first meal of the day always has been, for just about as long as I can remember. If I'm only eating one meal a day, it's going to be pretty clean, just out of habit. Which either means widening the "window" or learning to eat heavier for that one meal.
It's been a learning experience as to what kind of meal is appropriate if it's going to be the only meal of the day.
I keep experimenting with different types, sizes, and frequencies of meals, and to be honest, I'm not sure yet which works best for me (or even if there is a single best).
Some of it depends on when and how I'm going to exercise. If I'm going to go to the gym, I have to eat before I get there. If I go to the gym on an empty stomach, it's a recipe for passing out.
