[buckettgirl]

Jill, I agree with you. None of us intentionally became obese. Certainly, I didn't have a choice as child - I didn't even know what obese was...
But as adults we do have a choice in the matter. I very much follow Dr. Phil on this one... and I'm sure I'll get flamed for it.

We make a choice everyday to be obese or not by choosing what kind and how much food goes into our mouths. We make a choice to be obese when we say that we don't feel like exercising today. We make the choice to no longer be obese when we get out of denial and face the truth about why we are the way we are.
Actually, I see alot of denial at 3fc...but that is individual and something has to "click" for each one of us to actually move out of that and do what we need to do.

I agree that the percentage of people who legitimately cannot control their weight must be small... but I cannot deny it exists.

[BridgetJFan]

RE: Poor food choices. Now that's another can of worms. Try getting healthy food on a regular basis. I find the only way I can be sure of getting healthy food is by staying at home 24/7. How realistic is that! That definitely contributes to the obesity epidemic in America. When my daughters tried to eat healthy at school, there were few healthy choices, the salad bar was once per week, other choices were fried, fried and more fried, and all the vending machines were full of sugary drinks and junk food. I won't say there isn't any restaurant that serves healthy food but so often circumstances don't allow you to be in those few places. Our foods are full of corn sweeteners, overly processed grains, sodium that causes fluid retention, etc. Read the fine print on the cans of many formerly healthy foods and they are sneaking in sweeteners in the vegetables, arrghh! Every grocery store is set up to "push" unhealthy food choices in your face. I don't think there is a grocery store in my area that doesn't have a bunch of bakery stuff and junk food by the checkout lanes to tempt the tired and hungry. Personally, I've found having groceries delivered is a great boon to a diet. I'm not saying getting thin is impossible but it ain't easy!! BTW, 30 years ago, I naively thought I had choices, too. At 54, I know better.

[buckettgirl]

I understand where you are coming from, and agree that "they" push horrible foods in our face everyday...
But, my hubby and I both take our own lunches with us - however sometimes that can be difficult for me as I commute 25 miles to school and if I end up staying in town longer than anticipated I can be thrown off course. Even when I was little, my mom wouldn't let me eat school lunches...she always packed my lunch for me so she could control what I ate.
Personally, the only way that I feel that I can combat this corporate food monster is to cut out as much processed food as possible; stick with whole foods, make my own stuff from scratch, and grow my own garden. I know this doesn't work for everyone, and certainly won't always be convenient for me, but not everything ought to be convenient either. Our society is fat because we're all caught up in convenience...

[BridgetJFan]

I don't know about your kids, but my kids wanted to eat what the other kids eat--intro junk food at school. My kids did escape obesity while they lived at home because I did everything possible to present them with healthy choices and made sure their summers were full of fun exercise(swimming, horseback riding, etc) to counteract the fattening school year. The only time they had acne was when they were exchange students eating other foods for prolonged periods of time. To this day, my oldest daughter, 26, rarely eats bread because it was not a strong focus in our menu, preferring lean meats, fruit, vegetables, healthier grain alternatives, etc. She is still being sucked relentlessly toward the abyss of obesity.

[kaplods]

Jill,

I've lost 50 lbs. Does that count for nothing until I can say I've lost 200?

I'm not expecting special treatment, but I appreciate it and reward it when I get it, because the alternative is that stay home. By the way, I have never heard a thin person complain that restaurant chairs were just too big and roomy (rather restaurants are trying to cram in as many customers as possible - understandable but not to the benefit of disabled, fat, or even thin customers). Restaurants with roomy or armless chairs get my business because I can sit in them without injury as can my thin mother-in-law with a bad hip. She can't sit in a booth, and booths are just as inconvenient for her husband whose wheelchair then blocks the aisle (and he can't get the chair underneath).

I also vote with my voice and wallet for decent treatment from all businesses. Restaurants that serve beautiful salads and other healthy choices also get my praise and money. I go to an athletic facility with arthritis classes and warm roomy changing rooms with large showers.

All of us fat people could stay home, never go out, never be seen in a swim suit or on a bicycle, or in shorts, or at a restaurant. We could never get married, we could never have babies, we could never be in friends weddings.
We could just sit home until we lose the weight. The weight is going to come off reall fast like that.

[freiamaya]

Great thread! Sure punched a number of hot buttons, of which these are mine :
1. Being fat is a choice. Yes, being fat as a child is NOT your choice, as children don't generally have a choice with respect to what they eat (if mom serves Kraft dinner to a 5 year old, the 5 year old will eat it). Once you reach a certain age, you ABSOLUTELY have a choice in how much you weigh. YOU, and only YOU put every morsel of fat/lard/calories into your mouth. No one has a gun to your head to make you eat that box of Girl Guide Mint Cookies. NO ONE.
2. I HATE it when people fob off responsibility for their choices onto everyone else. "My cafeteria serves poor food" (so, pack a lunch). "The print on readymade food is too small" (get glasses). "My husband/spouse/friends are unsupportive" (so it's ok to eat that bag of potato chips?). "My medical condition makes me fat" (In all seriousness, I have a brain tumor and am on multiple medications for it, and these medications have messed up my hormornal balance. This means I work HARDER to stay where I am at, not give up. My medical status is no excuse for overeating.) Stand up and be accountable for your actions!!!! Accept the fact that some people have to work harder than others at losing/maintaining weight loss. Unfortunately, I am one of those people. My husband is not. Bottom line - more calories IN than OUT means weight gain!!!! Accept this and move on...
3. As for Fat Acceptance, well, you should NEVER BEAT YOURSELF UP FOR OVEREATING. I just read "Diary of a Fat Housewife" and was HORRIFIED because the author was so angry and self-abusive. Accept who you are right now, and go with it. If you are TRULY HAPPY at this weight, then why are you at this weight loss support forum??? But to be proud of being fat is not OK - some accomplishment!
4. I have yet to meet a 300-pound person who is truly happy with him/herself. It is harder to move, and harder to live, and I have yet to meet someone who wouldn't give their right arm to be at a healthy weight. I didn't say IDEAL, MODEL-THIN weight, but a weight where you can move, breathe, and live comfortably without increased risks of dying because of food.
5. Weight discrimination exists ( I will never be a jockey). Height discrimination exists (I can't be a pilot - I'm too short). Beauty discrimination exists (I certainly won't be a supermodel). Discrimination on the basis of origin exists (I won't be Miss Italy, for example). Intellectual discrimination exists (I am not about to be hired as NASA's next chief scientist). BUT, do you really want a 400-lb policeperson to try to chase down a criminal? (And, please don't tell me this is a matter of fitness - how many chin-ups can a 400-lb person do?). Do you want a 300-lb firefighter who can't climb a ladder? There aren't too many super-atheletes at the 300-lb mark, except, maybe for sumo wrestlers (and you can't be a sumo wrestler at only 250 lbs - and isn't that discrimination against small people??? But, I digress...) My point is that although discrimination exists, there are LOTS of large people out there who are wildly successful, and LOTS of small people, too. I HATE it when people use their size as a reason for not being successful in life. Sometimes, what is perceived as discrimination is actually just a reality check - it is hard, for example, to be hired as a sales representative for Jenny Craig if you weigh 250 lbs. This is not size discrimination. There certainly ARE real cases of size discrimination - I worked for a boss who outspokenly said he hated fat people, and if his wife EVER gained more that 5 lbs, he would divorce her. Needless to say, I didn't get very far in that job - discrimination? personality conflict? Idiot boss? Probably all 3. BUT, life goes on and I found another, lower-paying job where I was happier. Accept that life and attitudes in others aren't perfect, and find a niche where you can be happy.
There, I feel better now!!!
Thanks for listening.

[BridgetJFan]

Ironically, I was hired as a fitness trainer in a gym even though morbidly obese. I attracted many, many members who were too intimidated by the skinny minnie types that are normally the trainers, lol. Countless new joins told me they would never have joined if I had been the traditional "size two in spandex." So much for the theories about what a fat person should be able to do for a career! What did I learn from my experience in that job? That you can be more healthy at any weight through exercise, however, it does not guarantee that you will beat obesity--I'm the classic example.

[Misti in Seattle]

Originally Posted by BridgetJFan

I find the only way I can be sure of getting healthy food is by staying at home 24/7.

Weekdays I leave for work at 6 AM and get home around 5 PM... gone 11 hours with the commute. However, I consistently "get" healthy food by taking it with me from home; and I spend very little time actually cooking. With the use of a crockpot, oven, freezer, etc. it is really just not that hard. Oh and I HATE to cook. Believe me, if I can do it, anyone can! It does, however, require a bit of planning and discipline.

[jillybean720]

Originally Posted by kaplods

Jill,

I've lost 50 lbs. Does that count for nothing until I can say I've lost 200?

Wow, I have no idea where this came from...at one point, I had lost over 40 pounds, but I was still extremely obese. Did I ever say your efforts didn't count? I never said weight loss was quick or easy. Umm, I'm not even sure what else to say, since I don't know what it was I said initially to inspire such a retort

Originally Posted by kaplods

All of us fat people could stay home, never go out, never be seen in a swim suit or on a bicycle, or in shorts, or at a restaurant. We could never get married, we could never have babies, we could never be in friends weddings. We could just sit home until we lose the weight. The weight is going to come off reall fast like that.

And yeah, I never said that either. I agreed that you were entitled to give the money to whatever business you saw fit and just explained my own personal opinion as to why I don't go out of my way to find places that cater to obesity--did that mean lock yourself in your home all day every day? Of course, even if you did, you could still order healthy groceries to be delivered and you could do exercises at home--no fancy equipment or personal trainers (whether size 2 or otherwise) required

Bridget, I think it's AWESOME that you were hired as a trainer! Also an example of how weight discrimination is NOT always the case Of course, as we all know, you can exercise to your heart's content, but without a healthy diet/exercise balance, it doesn't mean you'll radically just shrivel away to thinness. Oh, and I am not a mother yet, but I'm pretty sure my future kids will want to do lots of stupid things "just because all the other kids are doing it." That doesn't mean I will let them

And I definitely agree with buckettgirl (and now Misti, who posted while Iwas posting) on the food choices--YOU make your own food choices. I decide whether or not to go to a restaurant...it is by no means my only option (when I was working 2 jobs, I would leave my house at 5:30am and not return until 10pm-midnight, but I always brought my meals and snacks with me so I wouldn't have to rely on places that might not have as healthy options). I decide to walk past the unhealthy foods on display at the grocery store...no one is forcing those items into my cart. Sure, it would be nice if I could eat all the fabulously sugary, fatty, sodium-filled convenience foods, but I can't--that's what got me here in the first place

freiamaya, I agree with just about everything you said. I also worked with a woman whose husband was like your former boss--he told her if she ever got fat (although, I'm not sure what size or weight would meet his definition of "fat"--size 12? size 20? size 34?), he would divorce her. People are just so stupid sometimes...

[kaplods]

Jill,

Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of your post, but I am so tired. I am so tired of fighting my body. I am so tired of fighting negative thoughts about myself, and I am so tired of having to fight for every shred of dignity I have obtained. At one point in my life (eighth grade), I lost 75 lbs. I gained it back, plus a few more. At another point, I lost 80 lbs, and at several points, I lost 60 lbs or more, each time gaining it back. I have lost 25 - 50 lbs repeatedly, but not without eventually gaining every ounce back and then some. I have lost THOUSANDs of pounds in my life, unfortunatley, I have gained all of them back plus 350. I have been struggling so hard against my body, there have been many times I've had time and energy for little else, since I was five years old. I remember being in first or second grade and crying because I was SOOO hungry and couldn't eat what the rest of the family was eating becaue I was on a DIET. Wondering, even at that age, what was wrong with me that I couldn't control myself around food, like everyone else. It is bad enough trying to battle yourself, but when you have to battle the whole world too, just to gain a little acceptance, it taps your strength, your self-esteem, and your very soul. Especially, since no matter what else you accomplish in your life, your value still seems to boil down to nothing more than that number on the scale.

I continue to believe that the way we treat fat people in this society is criminal, and only contributes to the problem. That doesn't mean I believe it is anyone's else's fault that I am fat, or that I deserve SPECIAL treatment. But I don't think things like seating in movie theatres and restaurants, that will accomodate people of a greater range of sizes, disabilities, range of motion, and physical limitations is all that special. I'm not asking to be admired for being fat, just treated with a little dignity.

You may find it motivating to have to work to fit into averagely molded clothing, amusement park rides, restaurant booths, movie theater seats...
I only find it frustrating, demoralizing, and a constant reminder that I am not like everone else, and never will be, even if I manage to lose and keep off every spare ounce.

I find the idea ridiculous that a person would have much chance, locking themselves away from the world, because they didn't feel they deserved to be in it, to somehow find the courage, determination and self-respect to become either physically or emotionally healthy. Social support ultimately is what helps a person do that, and that is why I came to this site. To find others who needed that same level of understanding and support, and freedom from blame. It's a shame we can't get it from the rest of the world, it is even worse that we can't even always get it here.

I can't handle this thread anymore. It has become destructive for me, rather than constructive, so I am bowing out. I have learned that much, to avoid situations that make my journey any more difficult. Good luck to you all.

[jillybean720]

I have been through much of the same in my life (though I'm younger, I believe--I'm 23 years old). When I was as young as in elementary school, I would come home crying because kids picked on me for my size. I would cry myself to sleep wondering what it was like to be "normal." By middle school, I was trying to starve myself, which of course only lead to bingeing. My weight problem began around age 4 or 5, I believe, and I actually vividly remember when I was about 6 years old a woman who I hadn't seen in a while commenting that I looked like I'd lost weight. My mother actually explained to me that it was a compliment because at 6 years old, I didn't know I should be trying to lose weight. I was told at home that it was"baby fat" and would eventually go away, but then I was mocked on a daily basis by the other kids at school. I did what most kids do--I got defensive and became a very dark, negative person including secret thoughts of suicide. Clearly, the world hated me for being fat, I could never amount to anything, and I would have to work a hundred times harder than my thinner counterparts for the same things. Or at least, that's what I thought.

When I got to high school, I hated my life because I couldn't go out dating like all the other girls because I was too fat--what guy could ever be interested in me? I withdrew myself from a lot of things and people, and I spent most of my time chatting online rather than hanging out with real kids--online, no one knows how fat you are unless you tell them. Oddly enough, I gained a lot of friends and confidence online. People LOVED me, and in the chat rooms I "hung out" in, there were actually people who wanted to be my friend because they knew of me even before I'd met them. I was POPULAR. I know it sounds extremely silly now, but at the time, I LOVED my online life while simultaneously hating my real life.

At the end of my sophomore year of high school, I auditioned for an extra-curricular elite singing group. I knew I could sing--it's the one thing I've always been really good at. When the names of new members got posted after the audition, my name was on the list (yay!), but with an asterisk that meant I had to see the director. I spoke with her, and apparently my negativity was a concern for other members in the group in that I might be difficult to work with and whatnot. That's when I changed. I realized that if I wanted to actually accomplish what I wanted in life, I needed a major attitude overhaul. I no longer battled every single day of my life for acceptance. I began by pretending I was happier at times and toning down the sarcastic retorts I would have to those who were rude to me, and eventually it became how I really was rather than a pretense. I became a happier, more positive person, and my life changed drastically. The last 2 years of high school were FABULOUS--I made new friends I'd barely even spoken to before, went out every weekend, had fun, became known as "witty" rather than "bithcy," and actually acted like a regular kid. I went to college and continued the good times with my new positive outlook on life. Things were no longer battles--things were challenges, and my new attitude allowed me to conquer them.

It's not easy being a fat kid--never has been and likely never will be. Perhaps something that is different between how I see things versus how many others here see things is just a bit of a generation gap. I've never had difficulty getting a job, never had trouble making friends, never gotten any blatantly rude comments from strangers about my size--and I sincerely believe it's all because of my attitude (err, lack thereof? ). I'm not specifically proud to be fat, but I am proud of who I am, and I think it shows. Rather than viewing life as a constant uphill battle, I've learned to seek opportunities and put my best foot forward. It's all we can do at any shape or size

I read a study once where a bunch of women went out on a first date with a man, and then he never called her back for a second date. When asked why they thought that was, almost all of the overweight women blamed it on their weight, while the thin women cited a different reason (not enough in common, dull conversation, whatever). Thin people miss out on a lot of opportunities, too, and being thin won't automatically make all of our problems disappear.

No, I'm not necessarily motivated by seats that are tight or uncomfortable--I am frustrated by them. But, I can only be frustrated with myself, not the business who uses normal-sized seating in their establishment. Seeking appropriate accomodations for someone with a wheelchair or hip injury is not the same, IMO, as seeking them for my big fat butt

[Misti in Seattle]

Jill, just to say that while I don't always agree with all of your comments, I do think you have some very valid and helpful input! And I admire you for listening to what the director had to say... wow that must have been tough to hear... and determining to change your attitude, rather than blaming it on others! Good for you!

I agree too that often we do bring a lot of this on ourselves. I know I am guilty. We are so conscious of our weight that when things don't go our way we blame that when it very well could be that we just didn't make something, or our attitudes, etc. It is so easy to become defensive.

I find so much of the "proud to be fat" movement -- and even in reading some of the posts here -- seems to be that a lot of people don't want "acceptance" -- they want approval for their fat. While I do try very hard to accept people for who/what they are, that doesn't mean I always have to approve of their lifestyle or personal choices. Sheesh I don't even approve of my own choices which have led to my being this fat!!! I don't "accept" my fat -- I plan to work my butt off to get rid of it. And ya I've done the yo yo thing for years too but I won't stop trying again.

When I say such I often get accused of putting myself down which is not the case at all. I don't "hate" myself -- I DO hate this fat on my butt LOL but I don't see that as being negative.

I have been amazed at how supportive people are, actually. I live in an area of the country where thin and "fit is in" for sure! We have one of the lowest obesity rates in the US and physical activity is definitely the "in" way to be. Yet at work when a few people noticed and found out about my efforts they actually threw a surprise party when I lost 50 pounds... and brought all kinds of fruit and veggies to celebrate, and made a special card to cheer me on. While there is still a huge part of me that cringes inside for being so FAT, I have to choose (there's that word again!) to enjoy my weight loss journey and keep going no matter how hard it gets... and yes, sometimes it does get hard.

>>>But, I can only be frustrated with myself, not the business who uses normal-sized seating in their establishment. Seeking appropriate accomodations for someone with a wheelchair or hip injury is not the same, IMO, as seeking them for my big fat butt <<<

Exactly!!!! And it is FUN now when I "eye" a restaurant booth and decide, yep, I CAN fit into that!

[freiamaya]

I grew up in a household where my mother's definition of "thin" was to be able to count every rib and see both hip bones protruding. If you didn't meet that standard, she would have family public weigh-ins, record our weights and post them on the refridgerator, and refuse to eat until the rest of us "fat slobs" lost weight. ("I'm going to DIE because I can't eat until you lazy slobs lose weight" - try THAT for dinner conversation...). Also, try living in a house with a mother who is a fat-phobic and fat-hater, and a father who was morbidly obese. I'm not making this up. Is it any wonder why I have a weight issue today?
Weight issues are so complex - at their simplest, they are as I have said, calories IN vs calories OUT. But the factors making those calories go INTO your mouth are really, really complex. Weight issues and depression go hand in hand, as does intense self-loathing, and addiction to sugar/starch/fat (seriously, does ANYONE have an uncontrollable urge to binge on tuna in the little cans? Or salad? But I digress...). My bottom line is that if you "accept" your size IN THE SENSE THAT IT IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, you will NEVER become healthy. You need to seek counselling if you are depressed, support groups if you feel alone, and an accepting community of friends that are non-judgemental. BUT, if you are seeking approval of your size and want society to agree that you are healthy just the way you are, then you will probably be disappointed. BUT, in no way should you be subject to negative comments about your size or the way you live your life. There is a difference between accepting those who are large (my father, brother, sister, and many friends) by treating EVERYONE with kindness and respect, and approving of their lifestyle choices.
As an aside, there is a couple living in our neighborhood who are both on disability (taxpayers money) due to their weight. They are each so large that they can no longer walk. Yet, every day (and I mean EVERY DAY), I see them go to the corner store on their scooters (which are provided by the taxpayer) and leave with bags of chips, soda, and candy (paid for by the taxpayer) looped over their handlebars. ("These are my evening supplies, dearie...") Are they eating all this stuff? You bet. Does it drive me nuts to see two wonderful people killing themselves with food? Of course. Would I comment to them about their choices? Never. But please don't ask me to approve of their chosen lifestyle.
Thanks for listening!

[andoreth]

Kaploids:

If you're still peaking in, just wanted to say that I hope you don't let the debate get you down. I've never really been a believer that debate can ever or will ever convince the participants (on either side) of anything at the time of the debate- they just have too much wrapped up in their points of view, to much of their personal histories filters how they look at the subject, and lets face it, egos can get involved which always makes it hard for anyone to reach out a conciliatory hand to the opposite side and look for common ground.

Debate is really for the non-participants, the people reading the posts or listening to the words who might not have already invested in an opinion to the extent that they can't "hear" both sides without those filters. It's nothing more than a chance to present both (or all) sides of an issue as best you can, trying to explore each side's strengths and weaknesses. There are very few times in life, in my experience, when one side in any debate is 100% correct and the other 100% wrong- and despite what the high school and college judges might try to convice us, there are rarely "winners" and "losers", just voices wanting to be heard.

The original question proffered here for debate was whether or not the "proud to be fat" movement was either 1) better because it teaches people to accept themselves for who they are and reach for their goals no matter what their weight or 2) more harmful because it is a movement "promoting unhealthy life styles". However, the argument I keep hearing here (again, probably at least partly because of my own "filter") is that "accepting yourself even though you are fat IS promoting an unhealthy life style", and I just can't accept that this has to be the case, and rather agree that most people will only choose health once they learn to accept themselves. Some people here see the proud to be fat movement as orriented towards the thin community in the movement's own self interest, some see it as orriented towards the fat community in the fat communities' best interest. In reality it's probably more than a little bit of both, but I contend that the good they do far outweighs any bad, and hope that people reading these posts will take the opportunity to learn more about the work that it does in the real world before making their decisions one way or the other.

In every debate, there comes a time when both sides have pretty much given all that they have to offer, and the outcomes then have to be left to those observers out there to do with what they will, and maybe that time has come with this one. Or maybe there are still people who have something new to bring to the issue (I, for one, would love to hear from you), but I hope that everyone will take the time to really consider the issues here, apart from our own assertions, as I think that they are important for everyone who is, has been, will be, or cares about anyone else who is, has been or will be fat at some point in their lives. Take from this debate what you will, find out what you need from other sources, but give it some time. Your connection with society and how it influences your connection with yourself should not be taken lightly.

[kaplods]

Thanks Jen,

I so appreciate your support, and your concern. Don't worry, I am fine, just tired of the debate, with nothing left to contribute, and nothing left to learn, it's time to stop. I have learned that my weight is only indirectly under my control. I can only directly control what I eat, how I think, and what I do. When I treat myself with unconditional dignity respect and acceptance and surround myself with people who treat me and themselves with unconditional dignity, acceptance and respect, I have the most control over my behavior and thoughts. I am willing to share my experiences and beliefs with anyone who might benefit from hearing them, but I don't need to convince everyone, or anyone that I am right. I have seen what has worked in my life, and in the lives of people I have met who think like me. Continuing to debate it, however, wastes my precious time. I am more than willing to share my time, when it is being helpful to myself and others, but I don't see any further benefit to my participation in the debate. Didn't meant to make it sound like I was ready to throw in the towel. I'm far too stubborn for that!