[Stevi-rocks]

Originally Posted by GreatBigMonsterMomma

I'm more comfortable with the Proud Fat movement than I am with all the self-insulting screen names I see on this site, to be honest.

Isn't your name "Great Big Monster Momma"??? I'm confused...splain please.

Zinger! Misti! Yowza!

[HarpoChicoGroucho]

Oh gosh, Misti, I'm SO sorry if I offended you. I was just offering a generalized example. I meant to say someone who is very much anti-gay and that was the first group that came to my mind. I definitely wasn't implying ALL Christian fundamentalists are wacked. I meant some imaginary Christian who happens to be crazy enough to set up a lab and try to invent a cure for homosexuality.

Please, I meant no offense to anyone's religion. I just gave a poor example. I will go back and edit if you would like me too.

I am very sorry, please forgive me.

I will edit, because it was poorly worded and I see how my sentence could be misinterpreted.

[Misti in Seattle]

Thanks Harpo. No problem. I don't take offense that easily; just have learned that sometimes it is best to bow out when discussions take such a turn. I've never personally heard of any Christians setting up labs to "cure" people of homosexuality or anything else for that matter, but have no doubt there might be someone who tries it and unfortunately uses the name of Christianity to "justify" it. True Christianity is about loving people and showing them God's love in a practical way. I'm sorry your experience has apparently not been that with Christians. We blow it a lot unfortunately.

Anyway, no need to edit. I do appreciate your gracious apology, and no offense taken!

[Misti in Seattle]

Originally Posted by Stevi-rocks

Isn't your name "Great Big Monster Momma"??? I'm confused...splain please.

Good point! I do agree about the negative names people give themselves on here though.

[HarpoChicoGroucho]

Thanks Misti!! I'm relieved now. I actually started to cry when I read your post because I was afraid I hurt you. I only hurt myself by making an insensitive comment.

You are right about my experiences with Christians. I don't understand how someone with God in their heart has any room left in there for hate.

[jillybean720]

I don't think "wacked Christians" was horribly offensive--assuming you interpret it correctly. You didn't mean to say ALL Christians are like that, but in my experience, most of the people I've encountered who are extremely homophobic are Chrisitian. Do NOT read, "All Chrisitians are homophobic," because that is not what was intended I mean, after all, here we are having a discussion about pro-fat fat people, and I think some of those fat people are pretty much insane--that's not to say ALL fat people are insane, but those who don't think being fat is generally unhealthy and should be worked to improve are, IMO--just like Christians who are anti-gay are wacked

So yeah--I agree that the movement has taken a wrong turn. Rather than working toward making heavy people accepted, they are working toward making fat okay by scrounging for reasons why it's okay to STAY fat, and that, IMO, is NOT a good message to send. I don't care how many articles they find or make up, no one will ever convince me that it's better to stay at nearly 300 pounds than to try to lose the weight. It's not that dieting makes you fatter--it's that dangerous/extreme/improper dieting makes you fatter. Rather than rallying to keep people fat, maybe they should be rallying to show how dangerous some OTC pills are, how unhealthy most "diet" bars/shakes/meals are, and how innaccurate even the "healthy" meals' nutritional values at restaurants are, and instead promote things like calorie counting, reasonable workouts, and eating fewer processed foods.

[kaplods]

I didn't make reference to NAAFA, but to other "fat-friendly" publications, two of which have been long out of print. My knowledge of NAAFA is over 12 years old, so whether their views are more or less extreme I couldn't tell you. I didn't mention the group for a reason. In my view, NAAFA should be seen as a divided organization, composed of fat people wanting equal treatment, but also a subgroup of people who are "pro-fat," in a way that I am somewhat uncomfortable with. Namely "fat admirers," people (mostly men), who are romantically and sexually attracted to primarily fat partners.
Personally, I do not like any of the "looking for love" organizations based on such specific characteristics as blondeness or "big hooters," let alone obesity.

When I was reading "fat acceptance" philosophy, it was (and I'm guessing still is) first and foremost about treating fat people like people. It isn't deciding that fat is good for you, or that being fat is better than being thin, so hey Skinny go eat a hamburger. Just as in the mainstream, you aren't going to be free of opposing and biased viewpoints. There is an awful lot of hype for "diets" advising unhealthy starvation methods of weight loss, so it doesn't surprise me to find unhealthy hype at the other extreme. But most people (even fat people) are not stupid. They recognize biased information when they see it, in "fat-acceptance" and mainstream literature.

The point is that our society has a hatred of fat people that is difficult to explain. It certainly isn't just about health or poor choices, because we don't treat people making other unhealthy choices in the same way.

And, while poor choices and behaviors contribute to obesity, obesity is not a choice. No one chooses obesity, because thin was just too boring. I have spent nearly 35 of my 40 years just wanting to reach a weight at which I am not considered a freak. And I have to say, that being treated like a freak sure doesn't make weight loss any easier, or establishing any healthy habits for that matter. I've been laughed at for eating a single ice cream cone in public (I didn't get fat, and I won't stay fat, on one ice cream cone), but I've also I've overheard snide comments when I order a salad (you know she doesn't eat that at home!)

I'm sitting here bawling over incidents that still make me feel like the dirtiest foulest piece of garbage on the planet, even though I know I DO have a right to a real life now, not just when or if, I can reach my "ideal" weight. I do know I should be treated as a person. I should be able to go swimming or bicycling without abuse, to eat a salad or an icecream cone without being treated as a criminal or joke because of it, should be able to be proud of my accomplishments, and even the right to occasionally be proud of how I look, such as on my wedding day, even though I was over 50 lbs heavier than I am now.

I don't understand why asking for decent treatment, and refusing to feel like scum, is so offensive to so many people. I don't understand the belief that self-hatred is necessary for self-improvement. I think it is self-loathing that has kept me fat, not what is motivating me to lose weight.

[jillybean720]

And here we are again at the point where we're obviously discussing 2 different things: fat acceptance and "proud to be fat" (as the title of the thread states). I agree with fat acceptance, but I disagree with fat pride. In 23 years, other than the horribly mean kids in school growing up, I have NEVER received a rude comment regarding my weight in public. That's not to say it's never happened to anyone--clearly, it has--but I think some people maybe think it's more widespread than it really is. It's not like I've lieved in the middles of nowhere my whole life, either--I've lived in an itty bitty town in CT (now, tell me there aren't some stuck-up elitists living in CT ), a very economically and culturally diverse town in central PA (York), Virginia Beach, and now the DC Metro area (specifically Northern Virginia, which seems to be a bit more, umm, snooty than the Maryland side). I've ordered giant greasy cheeseburgers and salads without croutons and with dressing on the side, and never a remark. I've worn well put-together professional ensembles and sweatpants with a t-shirt in public, and never a single comment. At nearly 300 pounds, I've never been without a job and have had significant increases in pay with each job I have gotten, including a 26% raise after less than a year at my last job.

I don't know what I'm necessarily trying to say because I surely don't want to offend anyone, but I think part of it is our own mentality as well. That is NOT to say discrimination doesn't happen or that there's never been a snide weight-related remark that was completely uncalled for--I certainly know there ARE jerks out there who enjoy making others feel uncomfortable. However, I do think that sometimes we have the tendancy to blame some things on our weight that are not truly weight-related. For example, if I don't get offered a job, I don't assume it's because I'm fat (even though that's an easy excuse to rest upon)--rather, I know the harsh reality that sometimes companies even interview people with the intention of not hiring them (this happened at my job last week--they interviewed someone for a managerial position even though they knew they were just going to promote someone who already worked there--they just had to do interviewes in order to complete the appropriate corporate process for candidate searching). And maybe the person they interviewed was fat, and when s/he doesn't get a call back, they'll blame it on their weight, when in fact it has nothing to do with it at all.

I hope all of that made some sense

[BridgetJFan]

Puhleeze!! Don't tell me I have a choice about obesity. At age 54 with repeated failed attempts to fight off obesity I no longer buy into that theory. And certainly don't pull in WLS as a cure for obesity. Some day, we're going to look at WLS the same way we now look at lobotomy. It is a case of the cure is more dangerous than the illness, imho. BJ

[andoreth]

Yes, but how many times and how many people "just happen to not get the job" before you begin to realize that there IS a problem with descrimination? My SO is going to go into the job market in a highly competitive field next year, how many of those opportunities will be lost because the other person "would have more energy for the job", or just "seemed so much more professional".

Why should we timidly take the slings and arrows of the jerks out there without sending our own army to fight? We've all heard of the term "shock troops", well that shock part is important, it's what gets people's attention. You can stand on the corner all day and say "Yes, I know I'm fat, but I'm eating healthier and exercising a bit and I'm losing weight, please be nice to me and like me even though I've made mistakes" and no one will listen to you, no one will change. However, say "You know what, I'm fat, get over it and get over yourself... I refuse to bow to what you accept as normal" and you'll make it on the news for sure- or at least Maury Povich. And if it happens enough, maybe, just maybe, some interviewer will take a second look at the fat woman's resume... some fair-goer will think twice before laughing at the "fatty with the funnel cake", and each time that happens someone's life will be made better, even if they don't realize it at the time.

Yes, there is a difference here, we can decide to "look normal", lose the weight and the stigma (though a lot of marginalized people do this, believe me), and then the problem will be gone for us. But do you really think that once we, those people who are today, right now, at 3fatchicks working hard to lose the weight... once we do are there really going to be no fat people left? Are there no children being born today who will spend a certain amount of their lives obese? What lessons are they going to learn about their self-worth before the time they are ready and knowledgeable about how to lose their weight and keep it off?

And as far as the argument about the proud-to-be-fat movement encouraging people to give up on the diets and stop trying to lose weight... I hate to say this because I can already hear the screams, but here goes... so what? We all make decisions in our lives, some of them good, some of them bad, most of them not really one or the other. Sometimes we choose to fight, sometimes we save our energy for another day or for a different battle. I, for one, would rather have a safety zone to rest in, a place where it is okay to be fat and the world doesn't fall apart, then not have it. I want to lose weight because I want to, and because it's healthy, not because the alternative is ridicule and stigmatization. And, if some people get lost in that safe space, if they just don't have the strength to fight anymore, or their fear of the battle is greater than their fear of the weight, who are we to judge them, to take away their safety?

When we are winning the battle, it can become too easy to forget those who are losing it....

[jillybean720]

Originally Posted by BridgetJFan

Puhleeze!! Don't tell me I have a choice about obesity.

I agree that it's not really a "choice." I mean, I have been overweight since I was like 4 or 5 years old--what little kid says, "hmm, I think I'll live my life as the fat kid. That sounds like fun!" But we DO have the choice to do something about it or at least to try. By even being here at 3FC, it shows you are making an effort. I just think it's wrong to tell people they don't have to even make that effort, that it's okay to stay in a shape that increases your health risks without trying to improve.

And yes, there will always be fat people. There were fat people long before the media jumped on the "obesity epidemic" bandwagon, and there will be fat people long after. And no, those fat people shouldn't be persecuted for being fat. I work in a VERY competitive field--I'm currently a technical writer working in the federal proposal niche in the DC area, so not only is technical writing a competitive field around here, but I'm also narrowing the playing field to a specific little piece of it by refusing to settle for the usuals like medical or software documentation. Here I am at nearly 300 pounds. I went to an interview yesterday, and every single woman I saw in that office was thin and (IMO) cute/attractive, and then there was me with my hair down, no makeup, and a pieced-together suit (I can't buy full suits that come as sets because I'm too disproportionate for the same size pants and jacket). I felt like a sore thumb in that professional, classy atmosphere. But ya know what? I kept a smile on my face, my head held high, and enthusiasm and confidence in all of my words and movement, and at 7am today, I had a job offer. If you expect to be discriminated against, it's much more likely to happen. I was wearing the only suit jacket I own, and it was admittedly a little more snug than I'm typically comfortable with. I maintained good posture and even noticed on my way out of the office that *gasp* the bottom button of my jacket had come undone, revealing my too-tight shirt tucked into my pants with a bit of belly hanging over the waistband. I was pretty mortified as I walked out of the lobby, but clearly, I was able to convey my energy and abilities well enough that it didn't matter.

Would I have been happier not having to worry about things like my jacket being too tight? Absolutely. Would I have been more comfortable if I didn't feel like I didn't fit in with the other women in the office? Definitely. But I think you make your own opportunities, and the way you handle yourself can far outshine your physical appearance, and when you portray that confidence and positive attitude to those around you, particularly those in a position to be critical of you, they take notice.

Regardless of how many people try to change the nation's/world's view of obesity, it won't happen overnight, no matter how many protests or rallies or lobbyists or groups take action. We need to do what we can on a personal level to show that we as fat people are just as capable and qualified as those of any other weight/size.

[techwife]

Jill...you raise a very good point. It's not looks or 'a look' that is missing with discrimination, it's CONFIDENCE. YOU are very confident and sure of yourself....that comes through in your posts. I can honestly say, if you dropped, say, 150 pounds, you would still think you didn't 'fit in' with those skinny girls...and to tell you honestly, I bet the skinny girls all felt 'fat' and 'inferior' compared to the rest, as well. It's not weight or size that matters, it's the way you carry yourself and your confidence that shines through. I'm willing to bet that if you looked at the skinny girls, many of them probably had their heads down, slumped shoulders...all the body language of someone with an inferiority complex. But you, on the other hand, went in there confident, with your chin up and got the job!! You see all these 20/20-type shows where they show the good looking people always getting jobs whereas the chubby or 'ugly' people get turned down...if you look at it anohter way...it just so happens that the girl that is acting the role of 'good looking one' is just brimming with confidence, whereas, the girl that is cast as the 'ugly, undesireable one' looks like she can't stand her own reflection in the mirror. It doesn't have anything to do with looks or weight, it's confidence that matters and you just proved it for us!! Way to go, Jillybean!!

[kaplods]

I do not think we really are talking about two different things. Who are these mystery people who are proud of BEING fat? And what is their definition of proud, what is ours?

Pride (Dictionary.com)

1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.

2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association.

3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.


I did not choose the order of these definitions, but the first of these is the one I have been using and assuming. I don't believe these people are saying that fat is an accomplishment or peasure, or that it is a reason to feel superior to others, just that despite, and maybe even a little because of their experiences, they have value in this world.

And THAT, is what I meant by being "proud to be fat." I do feel a sense of value and self-worth, in part because of all of the experiences and challenges I have faced, and yes some specifically because I am fat, in a thin-obsessed world.

I would disagree that fat discrimination is not widespread, or that it can be easily overcome. With a master's degree in psychology, I also never had a problem getting jobs, and once getting them proving I could do the job as well as anyone else. With my qualifications, I imagine my resume stood out, but what about when it doesn't? When two candidates are nearly equal, studies show that the thin person will have made a better impression, even if their qualifications are slightly less. I can't name the studies, heck it's been 15 years since I earned my degree, and I only remembered the authors long enough for the tests or term papers.

That isn't really the point anyway. And why is it so wrong for an individual, based on individual needs and goals to decide that this particular struggle isn't worth fighting anymore? Aren't we a society of freedoms, even the freedom to put ourselves at risk (by smoking, drinking, taking up dangerous sports, whatever)? Why is this freedom any different?

The times in my life that I chose not to diet, where times I had to devote all of my energies to something else. During my first, I was in college for the first time. During another I was going to graduate school, while working full time. During another, I was working more than full time with juvenile offenders while teaching college part time. I didn't balloon up at these times, despite some of them being 2 - 4 years long. I stayed the same, but I couldn't juggle all of my responsibilities and the focus I needed for weight loss.

Now, I have the luxury to devote most of my time to my health, as I am on disability, in part because of the choices I made when younger, both in terms of not taking proper care of myself, and in putting the needs of my jobs and other people ahead of my own. Even now, in order to take care of myself, in no small way, I have to give up other things I would like to do. Some of the things I am giving up have nearly as much value to me as my health. Who am I to judge if someone else decides some of those things are more important?

[Beach Patrol]

And from a totally different angle....There are companies that won't hire people who are extremely obese, or who smoke, or drink a lot, or have a history of drug use, etc. (You'd be surprised what a background check will turn up! ) That's certainly in the company's best interest if they have a health plan that is owned by the employees of the company (my husband's company is like that.) Therefore people who have increased risks of heart disease, diabetes, etc. might not be hired over someone who is lean & healthy.

Yes, it's true, you can't tell always someone's health just by looking at them. A person can be hefty and still be in good shape. But it's a well known fact that obese people suffer more health problems than our lean counterparts.

Well, you may ask, "what if someone is good & lean but then they get fat, or start smoking or drinking too much, etc WHILE they're employed there?" Simple, really, these type of companies usually do the SMART THING, and "invest" in their employees. They offer their employees a free gym membership, help to quit smoking, AA meetings if necessary, etc.

That's not discrimination. That's good business sense.

[kaplods]

African Americans have a tremendously higher rate of diabetes and heart disease, should businesses be able to discriminate, just because it's good business sense?