As I said before, Gary, I'm not quite sure where I found the verse. It was some years ago, but it was one of those things that stuck with me. You know how that is.
That said, riddle me this--obviously, many of the stories in the bible are fictional (according to many historical and scientific studies), even though some may be loosely based on actual happenings (as with any fictional story, the ideas had to come from somewhere). And so, isn't it possible that these stories were written to include a fictional God that really just represents that good little voice inside everyone's head--your conscience, if you will? If we realize that the stories are fake, then doesn't it stand to reason that the characters could be, as well? Just another non-believer's interpretation up for discussion--if you do believe everything in the bible is true, then I'm surely not here to dissuade you of that.
That is exactly how I look at the bible. I've never been able to put it that way though. But it does explain exactly how I think of it. Thanks for putting it that way.
LYDIA~ Hey kiddo, you have me curious...I am trying to find that scripture...I found this in Romans 12:17-18 ~~ Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
That said, riddle me this--obviously, many of the stories in the bible are fictional (according to many historical and scientific studies), even though some may be loosely based on actual happenings (as with any fictional story, the ideas had to come from somewhere). And so, isn't it possible that these stories were written to include a fictional God that really just represents that good little voice inside everyone's head--your conscience, if you will? If we realize that the stories are fake, then doesn't it stand to reason that the characters could be, as well? Just another non-believer's interpretation up for discussion--if you do believe everything in the bible is true, then I'm surely not here to dissuade you of that.[/QUOTE]
JILLYBEAN~ Well, according to many historical and scientific studies the accounts of the Bible are entirely TRUE. Before I had a personal relationship with Jesus I had many of your same thoughts. I think and feel different now ~ less head ~ more heart. I am not a schlor on the subjects we have been discussing by any means, I do read both sides in religious sections of newspapers, magazines, and books by christian scientists. I have atteneded a couple of seminars with christian scientists also. I can see that people have different and valid opinions. It is good to be a "doubting Thomas", it keeps people seeking answers and truth.
I am sure for every piece of evidence you present AGAINST what I believe, I could present evidence BACK AT 'CHA ~~
JILLY you and I will always end up back at the beginning of the "CIRCLE"
Maybe we should go it up somewhere else for awhile
Well, this is a topic that I have been contemplating for a loooong time. I was raised in an Evangelical Lutheran Church and to be honest, I feel most comfortable there. It's just because it follows many of my beliefs and doesn't make me follow beliefs that I find no correlation to in the bible (like why my Catholic grandmother went to mass everyday to toss money at the altar in the name of St. Jude? What's up with that? Who is St. Jude and why did he want all her money? Why couldn't he get a job and get his own money? Will I have to give him all MY money when I grow up? is what I asked myself when I was young) BUT, the nearest ELC to my house is about 45 mins away and I just...don't...feel like it.
So, I've tried the Methodist church, which is VERY similar to the Lutheran Church, but I find that when I don't go for a couple weeks, if I see the pastor, he gives me this really creepy look like I'm his old girlfriend and I broke up with him. It really creeps me out. And I get really sick of the guilt trip..."We really coulda used your help with VBS this summer..." It's just guilt, guilt, guilt unless you dedicate your entire existence to it.
So, I hung out with the Episcopalians...but to be honest, I just don't like my personal space invaded, like when they force me to hold hands with a total stranger. Its a tiny bit holy rollerish to me. So, we go there on Christmas Eve and Easter...that's it. I just like to go to church, go in the back row, worship and leave without anyone taking roll call.
So...in my need to explain this to my subconsious (some would call this the Holy Spirit nagging me), I've got this to say to those that complain that I don't go to church often enough. Show me in the bible where it says that I have to travel to a wooden building to sit amongst a bunch of blue-hairs and pray to God. Show me in the bible where it says we should all toss our life savings to St. Jude. Show me in the bible where it says if you go to a Lutheran church, you will go to the Lutheran corner of heaven and so on (which, the Lutheran corner is where I"d like to go if I have my druthers, no offense to anyone). So, I have a bunch of bible stories that I read to my kids called Alice in Bibleland and at every religious holiday, I am sure to pound into the kids heads that Jesus is the reason for the season and teach them in my own way.
Furthermore...I DO get creeped out with the way religion is used by creepy people. I can tell you, I didn't get married for the first time until I was 37. So, I spent a GREAT many years dating and dating and dating. It was my greatest desire to be married and have a TON of kids, even from a young age. So, one day I was discussing my disappointment in all men to my mother and she suggested I look at some groups at church to meet a guy. Okay...nice idea...WRONG!!! I went to a singles group at a non-denominational church and O...M....G!!! It was horrendous. All they had there were guys that were using religion to get in the unsuspecting girls' pants. It was really ugly. Here's the guys..."Oh...I have such a hard time finding 'nice' girls in bars...that's why I'm here...so I can meet a girl just like you...someone I can spend the rest of my life with..." Every single girl I knew that dated someone from that group was schmoozed into having sex with the jerks, then got dumped. I even met a guy that my MOM fixed me up with...he was a Sunday school teacher at a Methodist church...and it was ALL a hoax, his "Oh...I'm a SUnday school teacher adn I'm so gentle and loving and caring and I love children..." Well, I don't need to tell you what happened. I"ve known HIS mother since I was eleven and I couldn't believe he'd go down that road with ME. And don't get me started on priests and the little boys.
So, in short (sorry, too late for short, isn't it)...I believe in all of the bible stories...the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit...the entire nine yards. BUT, I have very little faith in church and a lot of the people that use it to make themselves look good or as an umbrella to hide under so they can do their creepy deeds.
JMHO...no offense to anyone that disagrees with me.
...and books by christian scientists. I have atteneded a couple of seminars with christian scientists also.
And perhaps therein lies the problem. If the only people you listen to are Christians, then of course they're going to agree with all of your Christian ideas
I once saw a special on tv where a Christian "scientist" tried to argue that the Grand Canyon was created by the 40-day flood (maybe there's a name for it--you know, the whole Noah's Ark bit). Numerous other scientists/geologists explained that this was crazy, that only a steady stream of water (as in, the river that actually did carve out the canyon) could have created such a massive canyon, and not any type of flood. He just refused to listen or acknowledge any of their proof, though...sad, really. Great that he had such great faith, I guess, but if your faith causes you to ignore reason and solid fact, then I don't think it's necessarily a good thing anymore. And this is not directed just at you, Gary--I mean it in general.
I am not familiar with all of the stories of the bible--and like I said, some are really based on actual events (for example, we studied in a history class in college that Jesus really did exist. Whether God was really his father is really dependant upon what you believe, but the idea that Mary was a virgin is highly unlikely, as it was common in those times for unwed women to claim to be carrying a holy child in order to avoid the embarassment of having a child out of wedlock). But some are so far-fetched that by no stretch of the imagination can I accept them as true (the best example being that of a 40-day flood and a single man rounding up 2 of every creature to put on a boat. How could he build such a boat back then, strong enough and big enough to hold so many species? And if all of today's animals were born from just 2 of each species, then weren't they all born out of incest? Speaking of which, if life started with just Adam and Eve, how did we get so many people on this planet without incest? I'm guessing God is not a fan of incest...). I promise I do have a strong heart, but there is just too much information in my head for me to stop thinking with it
As always, these are just MY thoughts--if you believe, then I'm glad you have faith in something that satisfies you...I'm certainly not here to dissuade you; I guess I'm just trying to show some reasons why many of us do find it so difficult to believe (even though, like I said, I was raised as a Catholic).
Doesn't really matter where he is preaching from does it? It's the WORD that matters.
Some would differ with that. IE: When his foot came down on the pew next to my cousin's head and she screamed, because it scared the crap outta her, do you think she was hearing the word at that point? Sometimes all the theatrics do more to scare some people away than to bring them to the word. They energize my mom, but all I can do is just shake my head in wonder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EZMONEY
Personally I like the NIV version. I use a parallel Bible many times when I do a bible study....King James, NIV, The Living Bible and The Revised Standard. As you read across the page with the 4 versions you can see that they all tell the same story just in different ways ~ some more in depth, others a little more basic. It would be like JILLYBEANand I doing a movie review, she is highly educated, I am not...her review would probably have a lot more detail in it than mine, plus she would be using words that I have never heard of ~ my review would be pretty basic ~~ But they would both tell the SAME STORY ~ both versions different but both TRUE.
They tell the same "basic" story, but they have a few minor variations in places that mean a lot. IE: If one uses the word **** and refers to fire and brimstone as a place where all sinners go for eternity and one doesn't make it sound eternal or call it ****...minor differences. But they make a world of difference in the interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EZMONEY
Not quite sure what you mean about the original Bible. My NIV has plenty of versus that speak of the separation from God as in the lake of fire, lost and doomed, etc.
The "original"...the Old Testament written in Hebrew. The New Testament in mostly Greek. Jesus spoke Aramaic. The Bible was not written in English. It was "translated"..."interpreted". They spoke of tartarus (dark abode of demons), gihana (burning trash dump outside the gates of Jerusalem), and hades (the Greek word for the underworld). The word **** was referring to a pit where potatoes were placed. The King James Bible combined all of those words and just used **** to describe a place where sinners dwell in an eternal lake of fire. How a potato pit came to be known as as a sinner's eternity defies logic, but that's interpretation for ya.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EZMONEY
Didn't see/hear it....sounds like it is similar to Andy Griffith's account of the first time he saw football ~ very funny.
It is very funny. My mom used to own the album. It's basically a phone ringing and him yelling for his wife to get it and when she never responds he grumbles all the way to the phone to find out he was getting a phone call from God and he tries unsuccessfully to get around the fact that he didn't attend church Sunday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillybean720
(i.e., the Bible itself has passages within it--whatever version you read--that contradict other passages in the SAME version).
You mean like in John 3:16? "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So the Bible says they shall not "perish". I always wonder what that has to do with burning in **** for all eternity myself. But yeah, the Bible's full of contradictions. Most of the stories in there were parables...and yes...written by men. And it was men who decided which were to be included and which weren't. It was men who decided which ones were supposedly messages from God and not possibly just men claiming God told them to write that. Then they were all lumped together and later translated by...yup...more men. Men who were never around when these passages were written and who never in their life grew up to speak ancient Hebrew and are only going on what they believe were the words of that day handed down throughout many many years.
I attended church until I was a teenager and then went through my rebelious stage but God was with me the whole time. I don't go to church but I read the bible almost everyday. My family is my church. Anytime you come together in the name of Jesus, that's church. People have made so many rules about what you have to do to believe in God, It's no wonder people distain the whole thing. God wants a relationship with you. He will put it upon your heart what you should or shouldn't do. God is love, to me.
John 3:16 says all I ever needed to know. Jesus died for me and you (wether you believe it or not). I don't think many of us know someone who would do that for us. Except maybe a parent. I know I would die for my children. So I look at God's love for me like the love I have for my kids, I love them no matter what. They're bad sometimes but I would never ever not love them for it. I forgive them no matter what. Just like God does us. Our bad deeds were washed away when Jesus died on the cross for us. I'll never deny I'm a Christian, I love the Lord but I do not go to church in the traditional sense.
Oh yes, almostheaven, I've been in a few services like the ones you describe. The only response I ever had out of sermons like that was FEAR. And I don't believe fear should be a motivation in deciding to follow Christ.
Unfortunately, this is how everyone tries to persuade me int religion; that I'm going to **** if I don't. But its just too strange because I want to be true to myself and NOT do something just because I'm threatened. (LIKE, Most people I KNOW are doing it soley for the fact that they think if they call themselves religious, they'll be saved from ****. )
boy would I love to have a "bible discussion and interpretation of scriptures" session with the rest of you. Wow, especially jill and gary, you guys are kickin'!
I'm currently "searching." Growing up in a Baptist home, I learned the tradition of Christianity early on. I also learned how to eat.
I've been to every mass, ceremony, ritual, and congregation there is. I have found pieces of a presence in my heart. There is something there. Christianity is not my thing. It's just....well...not for me.
Currently I am leaning towards Wicca. The faith itself is such a lifestyle. It's amazing. The praise of the earth and every living thing just has drawn me in. However, I'm still undecided.
Anne...I know a couple of Wiccans and I have to tell you...although I can't imagine a religious belief for me that didn't involve a strong belief in Christ and the bible...the Wiccans I know are super awesome people to hang out with because they are so...what's the word I'm looking for...non-superficial? They are very real and have a deep sense of who they are and never, ever judge people by whether or not they believe the things they believe. Never, ever are they hypocritical.
Two things I know about Wiccan is that it is Earth based, meaning, I think, that they draw their belief system from the Earth and all that is in it. Second is that every Wiccan I know is very open minded, very mystical and very happy for the path they've chosen. They're very insightful people. I also notice a correlation to an insanely strict religious upbringing when my Wiccan friends were children. Kinda like they're rebelling against Christianity with Wiccan, if you know what I mean.
I've looked into this myself, a little because it is certainly intriguing, and I've often wondered if there was a way one could mix Christianity with Wiccan. I could never make the total switch to Wiccan, myself. Sounds strange, I know, but God did create the Earth and all that is in it, so why not believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and celebrate Earth and all that is in it..beyond taking out our recycling? Know what I mean?
Indeed. I completely understand. One of the drawing factors of Wicca was just as you said, the non-superficial aspects. There is no judgements in Wicca. Each follows their own path, each creates their own sense of ritual, and it can be solitary practicing or with a coven. Though my initial beliefs followed Baptist, my mother encouraged me at a very young age to seek my own faith. Find what's best. I was NEVER forced to go to church nor was I ever choked with scriptures or given the Fire And Damnation speeches I've gotten from complete strangers. My mother is still active in our church and accepts me as her daughter. She accepts my beliefs (though she doesn't follow them herself) and she realizes that we all choose our own paths. So many misconceptions concerning Wicca float about. Such as:
1) Satanic worship. Wiccans do not actually believe in Satan or the Devil. They believe that there are two balanced forces that control all. The God and the Goddess. Both are equal, though a lot of Wiccans (being mostly women) tend to rely more on the Goddess' personality. The belief that you get back whatever you put out, be it karma or physical teachings, serve as a constant rule of thumb. "In it harm none, do what ye will." Basically, do what you want as long as you aren't treading on someone else's toes. lol
2) Wicca is solely about casting spells and dancing naked under the moon. I don't have to be Wiccan to go streaking. lol :wink: Wicca is the belief that one can change their physical situation and/or emotional surroundings through the use of concentrated energies. It's kind of like looking for a parking spot. You drive around saying to yourself, or maybe even thinking, "Man, I just want a good spot." or "Come on...come on." And sometimes, BOOM, there one is. Now, you can chock it up to happenstance, or you can merely say that you reinforced your energies and concentrated them enough to merit that parking space. It's more complicated than that, but I don't want to bore you all. lol
Also, I really appreciate your complete and beautiful acceptance of a faith different from yours, techwife. Usually (living in Alabama and Georgia) I am met with so much opposition and scripture I could just pull my hair out. It's nice to talk to someone of the Christian faith who is so open minded and just....accepting. Thank you.
TECHWIFE~ I am sorry that you have not had the best of church experiences in your life. Like me, Lutheran is your religion of choice ~ WHY? ~ well, like the old joke goes "What do you find when you have four Lutherans? ~ A FIFTH!"
Your "dating" stories sounded a little bit familiar. This is the second marraige for both my wife and I. We were both divorced in 1990, me after 11 years and her after 3, she is 6 years younger than me ~ anyway after we both were "healed' and ready to date again we each subscribed to a christian personal paper ~ BEFORE COMPUTER DATING was available ~ we each went through a lot of christians that were "hummmm" well, you know what I mean...I was able to finally find my Princess , she is still working on turning her toad into a Prince.
I am not too familiar with the ELC but have you looked for a Lutheran Missouri Synod in your area...we are pretty conservative. When we met, my wife, an ex-catholic, was attending a Presbyterian chuch that she really liked and had her daughter attending our church school.
Some would differ with that. IE: When his foot came down on the pew next to my cousin's head and she screamed, because it scared the crap outta her, do you think she was hearing the word at that point? Sometimes all the theatrics do more to scare some people away than to bring them to the word. They energize my mom, but all I can do is just shake my head in wonder.
ALMOSTHEAVEN~ MAYBE YOU COULD PICK UP SOME EXTRA MONEY SELLING HARD HATS BEFORE EACH SERVICE.
They tell the same "basic" story, but they have a few minor variations in places that mean a lot. IE: If one uses the word **** and refers to fire and brimstone as a place where all sinners go for eternity and one doesn't make it sound eternal or call it ****...minor differences. But they make a world of difference in the interpretation.
I think each interpretation means separation from God.
The "original"...the Old Testament written in Hebrew. The New Testament in mostly Greek. Jesus spoke Aramaic. The Bible was not written in English. It was "translated"..."interpreted". They spoke of tartarus (dark abode of demons), gihana (burning trash dump outside the gates of Jerusalem), and hades (the Greek word for the underworld). The word **** was referring to a pit where potatoes were placed. The King James Bible combined all of those words and just used **** to describe a place where sinners dwell in an eternal lake of fire. How a potato pit came to be known as as a sinner's eternity defies logic, but that's interpretation for ya.
AGAIN~ Separation from God.
It is very funny. My mom used to own the album. It's basically a phone ringing and him yelling for his wife to get it and when she never responds he grumbles all the way to the phone to find out he was getting a phone call from God and he tries unsuccessfully to get around the fact that he didn't attend church Sunday.
I'll check it out on Amazon if they have it.
You mean like in John 3:16? "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So the Bible says they shall not "perish". I always wonder what that has to do with burning in **** for all eternity myself. But yeah, the Bible's full of contradictions. Most of the stories in there were parables...and yes...written by men. And it was men who decided which were to be included and which weren't. It was men who decided which ones were supposedly messages from God and not possibly just men claiming God told them to write that. Then they were all lumped together and later translated by...yup...more men. Men who were never around when these passages were written and who never in their life grew up to speak ancient Hebrew and are only going on what they believe were the words of that day handed down throughout many many years.
GOD SAYS THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ~ ONLY THE BELIEVERS DEAR
YES, INSPIRED BY GOD~ MEN ~ MEN ~MEN ~ AND A BEST SELLER FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS ~ ARE YOU SURE THIS ISN'T JUST A MAN THING THAT HAS YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE UP?
it up somewhere else for awhile 
Every single girl I knew that dated someone from that group was schmoozed into having sex with the jerks, then got dumped. I even met a guy that my MOM fixed me up with...he was a Sunday school teacher at a Methodist church...and it was ALL a hoax, his "Oh...I'm a SUnday school teacher adn I'm so gentle and loving and caring and I love children..." 
Sometimes all the theatrics do more to scare some people away than to bring them to the word. They energize my mom, but all I can do is just shake my head in wonder.
Kinda like they're rebelling against Christianity with Wiccan, if you know what I mean. 
, she is still working on 
turning her toad 