Actually, I would argue that wars are rarely truly fought because of religious beliefs. Religion is just an easy excuse to rally the community. The "we are right, and they are wrong," slogans keep the troops motivated. Usually, you will find historically, behind every "religious war" the war was was started over greed, not belief. Wanting what other people have (material goods and natural resources), and trying to justify why it wasn't wrong to take it away from them.
I don't know what the world would be like without religion of any type, but I know it wouldn't be better. The abuses within organized religion have the same causes as any antisocial behavior; selfishness, greed, envy, hate, fear, and anger. With or without religion, these would still exist, and people would still justify it with faulty logic. Most people who do "bad" things, whether or not they have any "religion," will try to justify what they did with "good" reasons. The rest will embrace an anti-culture philosophy, in which they delight in what the rest of the population sees as evil (I worked with juvenile offenders, in juvenile detenion, and met quite a few adolescent "satanists" who didn't even know who "satan" was. They just loved scaring other people and doing shocking things - and they still expected "Christmas presents")
Whether or not we have religious beliefs, we're rarely the "rational beings" we would like to think.
I worked with juvenile offenders, in juvenile detenion, and met quite a few adolescent "satanists" who didn't even know who "satan" was. They just loved scaring other people and doing shocking things - and they still expected "Christmas presents"
Wow. This actually brings up another related topic--holidays. I join my family to celebrate Easter and Christmas even though I am not even remotely religious. To many (myself included), these have become societal traditions rather than religious days of remembrance. No one in my family attends church on these days, and I know plenty of people who are not (and have never been) Christian who still celebrate Christmas.
I will not force my children to attend church (when I have children), nor will I attend myself. However, I will undoubtedly continue to celebrate these holidays. I wonder, do "believers" feel offended (or disgusted or saddened or disappointed...) that "non-believers" celebrate these times even though they don't do so for religious reasons?
Hmm, another question...this past weekend, I attended my TOPS State Recognition Day (state-wide convention). Almost every person who told their story about how they lost their weight thanked God. I wonder if all of them are really religious and really believe s/he helped them, or if it's just sort of become something you're expected to say, ya know? I mean, I say, "Thank God!" at times (i.e., "Thank God this Walmart had what I needed so I don't have to travel all the way to the other Walmart!"), but I don't mean it literally--it's just sort of become an everyday expression. I understand why and how these religious things have lost much of their meaning, but I wonder how people who DO believe feel about others tossing around such traditions and sayings without a second thought. I don't even know if that all made sense
[COLOR=indigo]I will not force my children to attend church (when I have children), nor will I attend myself. However, I will undoubtedly continue to celebrate these holidays. I wonder, do "believers" feel offended (or disgusted or saddened or disappointed...) that "non-believers" celebrate these times even though they don't do so for religious reasons?
Yeah Jill, it really P*SSES us Christians off when you non-believers steal our holidays! Just kidding!
Actually, if I recall correctly, both Easter and Christmas have pagan roots, so maybe we stole it from you!
1dayatatime~ HE was there 9-5 you just didn't see it
Wrong. He was there 24/7 and provided me a good job that fed my children without outside help. Just because I lost the habit of driving myself to a ritual each week, don't assume I lost my relationship also. You know what they say about people that assume, don't ya? How many calories does shoveing that hole burn your digging anyway?
Last edited by 1dayatatime; 05-01-2006 at 07:31 PM.
anyone who could answer my question at all please help me-
Here's my story. I was kind of raised catholic. (I say kind of because I went to catholic school... but the thing is, my grandmother frequently made me attend a protestant church every sunday) I don't want to NOT BELIEVE in GOD or a creator, because I believe that there's just something out there outside my control. Now there's nothing that says these things in my life MUST be in the hands of someone higher than I, but its just NOT within my control. This is the ONLY proof I have that I might be even a bit religious.
MY question is, HOW DO PEOPLE DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE RELIGIOUS? And if so, must they adhere to the religion strictly? must they be devout and be rigid with everything? Because from what I'm told, there are things I MUST ACCEPT to be a righteous christian. What if I CANNOT ACCEPT THESE THINGS?
I couldn't convince myself to believe in God if I must accept the fact that he was the ONE SOLE creator, or that I MUST LOVE HIM ABOVE EVERYONE ELSE because these are the things that are JUST completely counterintuitive in my mind. I stopped going to church after a while (many years ago) because I realized that I needed to clear my head. I can't just go to church and pray to someone I can't possibly convince myself to worship. And it doesn't help me when other people (like my grandmother, my neighbors, my closest friends, so help me!) try to bring me to church and NOT understand what I need to accomplish first (to find God MYSELF) because I feel like a hypocrite if I do go and NOT fully accept God. IMagine! me, in the house of God, praying, YET NOT EVEN TRULY meaning it in my heart! I can't do that! That's just lying to myself! Yet people insist that I do whether or not I think I believe in God. SO do they want me to lie to myself or are they just hoping that one day I'll just blank out and accept God fully?
How does this ever work out??? I really really don't like being persuaded to go to church when I don't believe in God. Currently one of my best friends is constantly bugging me to go to church every sunday. How do I ever tell her??? I really need help at this- she was raised catholic, baptized, confirmed- me, ONLY baptized. I didn't yet make a commitment yet and I can't lie to myself and make myself think that I believe in God and attend church on SUndays just because she asked me to do so! I feel LIKE SUCH A LIAR in a religious vicinity if I did attend mass, but how would I ever tell her??!!!
I will not force my children to attend church (when I have children), nor will I attend myself. However, I will undoubtedly continue to celebrate these holidays. I wonder, do "believers" feel offended (or disgusted or saddened or disappointed...) that "non-believers" celebrate these times even though they don't do so for religious reasons?
Oddly enough, I went to the candelight ceremony at my grandmother's church during xmas. I still love xmas and still love the story of Jesus's Birth. I was raised with that embedded in my head. Nowadays I cnt quite accept it to be "real" in my mind, but in my family, we still have the Xmas tree!
Actually, if I recall correctly, both Easter and Christmas have pagan roots, so maybe we stole it from you!
You recall correctly. Just a couple: Easter is named after the pagan goddess Estarte and in ancient Babylon, they decorated eggs to symbolize rebirth of the goddess. The Christmas tree goes back to the burning of the yule log so that the sun could find it's way back for the winter...to light it's way back. When Constantine became a Christian he turned these into Christian holidays, but the pagan roots remain.
Veggielover - For me it's a matter of not believing in organized religion. I do believe in something more powerful than us that is guiding us in the right direction. But I think it's more of a belief in fate, karma, and destiny. I don't believe there was/is a god that created the universe and the world and everything we know. I think some things are already mapped out for us and that the good we do rewards us in the future. That's a big part of why Buddhism looks so good to me.
I knew I wouldn't be "religious" and go to a church when I read a book a priest once gave me. In the first chapter I disagreed with almost every single thing that was said. I don't understand how anyone can just accept what others say as fact and not ask for proof.
I do think believing in something is healthy and helpful. Life is really hard and having that belief that there is something better out there and having that group of people to lean on is wonderful. That is the only thing I like about organized religions. I think anyone who finds a group that cares about each other and shares the same values is lucky. I don't care if it's christian, buddhism, scientology, islam, hinduism, judism, etc. We all need the same feeling of belonging.
My recommendation is to do some research. Find a religion that follows what you believe. You shouldn't have to conform to the mainstream religion. Your religion should fit in with what you already believe. Try doing a search on "finding a religion". This is what I did when I had no idea what kind of religion I am. I found a website that had information on almost every religion out there. I don't know if I can post it here so pm me if you want it. It's a dot org website so they aren't selling anything. There is a test that asks alot of questions on what you believe and will give you a list of the religions that suit you best. When hubby and I took the test, buddhism was at the top of both of our results. (We took the test seperately.) All the christian religions were at the bottom.
WOW!... WHERE DO YOU GALS COME UP WITH SOME OF THIS STUFF? Boy do I have my work cut out for me...
Gary,
Based on what I have read of your posts, you seem like a nice guy. I just want to gently break it to you that you are treading on toes here with your focus on "saving" or praying for people. Not everyone is a Christian or wants to be. (I'm not saying I am a Christian or 'other', doesn't matter really.) I understand that you are driven to bring The Word as it is, but the other posts in this thread talk about how religion, or non-religion, impacts them... they do not seek to gather up followers. 3FC is not really the place (IMHO) to aggressively push Jesus on others.
No hard feelings meant... I understand where you are coming from, but this ain't the place I think.
I grew up going to church, and I stopped around 8 years ago maybe more.... and I do miss it.
I don't really feel comfortable going back to my old church as I always felt out of place and would like to go somewhere knew, I was hoping if and when I moved that would happen!
SARAH~ Thanks for the input ~ I really don't have time to address it before work but I will try ~ I think if you go back and read my posts you will see that I tried to share what my faith has done for ME ~ I don't believe anywhere did I ask anyone to become christians ~
I read what people said and did ask a few questions ~ I started by saying why I didn't go to church as a child ~ then shared what going has done for me ~ I was getting the impression that that was the way the thread was going
I was NOT out to SAVE anyone ~ my beliefs say that I cannot do that
I did say we Christians would pray for those that aren't ~ That is what my God tells me to do
I sure didn't realize that praying for someone was going to upset so many people ~ Especially when I didn't even say WHAT I WOULD PRAY FOR
Whatever your religion is on this thread you may all feel free to pray for me anytime you wish ~ for whatever you wish ~ if it is My father's will then it will be done
As far as WHERE DO YOU GALS COME UP WITH THIS STUFF ~ I had read so much after a mango salsa and pork chop dinner, plus a few "etra" beers that I didn't have time to sort it all out and my head was SPINNING!!
I was born into a Christian family, but around the time I was 4, my parents started actively studying Judaism. A couple years ago, they finished their conversion, and are now orthodox Jews. So, I've basically grown up Jewish. At one time, I was converting as well... but when I was around 13, I began really THINKING about what I was studying. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that I really didn't believe most of what I was supposed to be following.
After about 6 months of actively searching my heart, I realized that I didn't even really, truly believe that there was/is a "higher being". That was a really, really hard time for me... having to tell my parents that I didn't want to follow their religion, that I didn't feel that it was right for me.
Since then, I continue to study different religions, hoping one day to find what is right for me. Maybe I'll find it, maybe I won't. For now, I concentrate on trying to make the world a better place. Charitable donations, opening doors for people, helping the elderly, and just saying a kind word to someone can change lives. I do what I can to be a good person (someone who doesn't actively seek to harm others, and does what they can to avoid that) and try not to worry too much about religion. Nobody truly KNOWS if there is a "higher being", all they can do is believe. I don't confirm or deny the existence of one (or multiple ones).
I've read the Bible a couple times, and there's always one verse that really gets me... the verse, I believe it's located in the New Testament, says, "Let man not do what is right in his own eyes". And yet, ALL people do what is right in their own eyes. If you follow a religion, it is because you think it is right. Just something I found interesting.
For those of you that do not attend a Christian church ~ those of us that do will pray for you!
Mr. EZ Money, I will gladly accept your Christian prayers if you will allow me to go before the Goddess for you. I don't pray to Her but I do commune with Her on a daily basis and I would simply ask Her to bless you and yours. You'd just be wasting your time praying I'll ever go back to Christianity but I'd never turn down good wishes if they're offered!
I don't go to church (obviously) but I observe all Pagan Sabats, either solitary, with my husband and children or in a working group. A consecrated Circle is about as close to church as we Pagans are ever likely to get! Unless it's out in the glories of Nature, which is where our temples really lie.
This may be a bit off topic...
I grew up Catholic. I started quesitoning things in High school. Through out the course of my life I have been given some very trying times, but during these times things happend that showed me that there definately is something greater than us controlling things. During my recovery I decided to look into other religions. I no longer consider myself catholic, I find way too many contradictions with the religion and in the bible. I don't consider myself any donomination really. I think that there are alot of things from every religon that I believe and choose to combine a little of everyting..I guess this is more of a morals thing really then??
I don't agree in doing things just because "religion" tell us to. We were given the ability to question things. If that is what the "higher power" wanted then we wouldn't have been given that ability...I also feel that god/allah/buddah/higher power has way bigger things to worry/think about than wheather a person believes in them or not.
And I agree with LadyFire ""Let man not do what is right in his own eyes". And yet, ALL people do what is right in their own eyes. this is my probelm with orgaized religion--contradictions everywhere!!!
This is what I like to picture: All the Gods/goddesses, allah, buddah, etc upstairs hanging out, getting along, working together...I wish this could happen hear on earth with people and religion!
Just kidding!
I don't pray to Her but I do commune with Her on a daily basis and I would simply ask Her to bless you and yours.
You'd just be wasting your time praying I'll ever go back to Christianity but I'd never turn down good wishes if they're offered!
