i just skimmed most of this very long thread, so forgive me if im touching on points that have already been covered.
first of all... WOAH. i had no idea this was such a touchy issue and im glad i realized that before i just posted my initial reaction. but... a few things.
#1. being obese is NOT good for your health. this is why when we all started a healthy lifestyle, we lost weight. it doesn't mean that you can't be healthy AND obese, but they somewhat depend on each other. people leading consistently healthy lifestyles (with no health problems or medications that cause obesity) will probably never get obese.
#2. its pretty absurd to say you're healthier than an average weight smoker. obviously you probably are. but the average weight non smoker is also healthier and has less risks for health problems than we do.
#3. no one will ever say that being obese is beneficial to health. it increases risks of many health problems. as someone mentioned, even though you don't have diabetes or sleep apnea, neither did all the other obese people who got them, until they did. its the same as a smoker saying, i can breathe fine and i don't have lung cancer.... add the word *yet* to the end of their sentence.
#4. spitting out numbers and saying things like, "well im more healthy than my thin friend", is pointless. did you decide to change your habits so you could be healthier than your chain-smoking friend? or did you decide you wanted to be as healthy as you could be? if you chose the second option, stop comparing yourself to others. yes thin people smoke, yes they eat junk food, yes they drink and do drugs. they'd be healthier if they didn't do those things. and we're healthier by losing weight.
having been obese myself at one point, i think its awesome that these people are comfortable with it and loving themselves. i couldn't do that, i hated being fat. i give them congratulations and hope they do whatever makes them happy. but theres a difference between doing what makes you happy and what is the healthiest choice for you. the facts have been presented, and being obese gives you more health risks than being thin. sure, being thin and smoking/drinking/eating crap also gives you health risks, but that wasnt the subject of the post. the subject was about people who ARE obese, not our thin friends or other people we know who eat garbage. there's no gray area here. being obese just isn't as good for you as not being obese.
im not trying to add fuel to the fire here, im just saying what i think and im not sugar coating.
/rant.
Last edited by juliastl27; 04-29-2010 at 12:38 AM.
"Being fat is awesome and healthy" is not a majority opinion of the Fat Acceptance movement. That's a minority opinion of only a few folks (who unfortunately get a lot more camera time than the less controversial majority who are just saying that fat-harassment isn't right and it needs to be addressed).
I'm tired of hearing people advising "use it as motivation" when they're being bullied. Being bullied is not acceptable. "Using it as motivation to show the bully" JUSTIFIES the bullying (see it was good that I tortured that fatty because it inspired her to lose weight). NO, NO, NO!
Mistreatment of the obese shouldn't be seen as acceptable, justifiable or positive in any way. It is none of those things, it is just plain wrong, and it needs to be openly addressed, independently of the health issues.
Whenever abuse is ignored, it grows. Whether it's child abuse or cyber-bullying of children, or snickering at a fat person in public.
For the most part, we're taught to "ignore" bullies when it comes to certain topics (fat being not the only one, but one of them). There's a great deal of evidence form research studies that ignoring bullying and other antagonistic behavior does not decrease the behavior it reinforces, rewards, increases it. It's true in kindergarten and college (I've only seen the research in terms of academic arenas, but I suspect it's true in stalking and harassment cases as well) Those who report or retaliate against bullies, are bullied less than those who ignore it. So don't ignore it.
When someone name calls or otherwise harasses a person, they're rewarded when they're not punished. Ignoring a bully tells the bully that what he or she is doing is ok. The more people who ignore it, the more "ok" the behavior is.
It's nice to hear someone say once in a while "don't ignore abuse and discrimination, fight against it."
It's going to take me a long time to get this weight off, and I will not be treated like a subhuman mutant until I manage to be "acceptable" for the rest of the world to look at.
I've found that standing up for myself, having confidence I do teach others how to treat me. I have received most of what I've demanded. I've stood up to bullies (and most have backed down), but there are a lot of people much smaller than I am who are too afraid to do that. Some are virtual prisoners in their own homes, because they're afraid of the judgement they might receive (and their fears unfortunately aren't entirely groundless - it's very possible they will be teased, laughed at, or even harassed if they go out and do things that are "unusual" for a person of their size to do).
there's no gray area here. being obese just isn't as good for you as not being obese.
I would agree with this, in most cases, in morbid obesity. But I do believe that the "healthy weights" of some people, the weights they would acheive with healthy amounts of exercise and a healthy eating plan, can fall anywhere from "underweight" to "overweight", and maybe into the lower BMIs of "obese" as well. One of my previous posts mentioned my own history, so I am a bit biased, but I couldn't get out of the "obese category", and couldn't even maintain "normal", without being less healthy than I am in the overweight category at maintenance. Granted, I have a fairly extreme body type (I'm built pretty thickly). But it was very, very hard for me to resist the temptation to do things I knew were unhealthy so I could have a "normal" BMI...at 1100-1200 calories, I couldn't get through my workouts without getting dizzy, but at over 1200 calories, I maintain a weight in the "overweight" range. I do believe I am healthier than I would be if I had forced my body into a normal BMI, but the pressure to hit that "normal" range did affect me, even with my healthy habits, into contemplating making changes that were unhealthy to get more loss.
One other problem that I have is that our society makes obesity SO terrible/punishable by ridicule/socially unacceptable, people are pushed into doing unhealthy things to attain a normal weight...starving or ridiculous fad plans. Behaviors those people might do to be actually healthier (swimming, jogging, and other public activities) can lead to mocking. Even attempts to eat more healthful foods can be met with ridicule. I don't believe that someone who starves themselves down to a healthy weight is automatically healthier than they were when obese just because they have artificially forced themselves to a lower weight without actually undertaking healthy habits.
I think that the core of the FA movement is about these issues...going with healthy habits, living your life without discrimination, and seeing where your weight goes, instead of doing unhealthy things to meet a certain body standard.
The one running theme in this thread that really doesn't resonate with me at all are terms like,
obese people can't do such and such because fear people will make fun of them
or
people are pushed to do this or that
or
obese people can't do this or can't do that, or whatever
No one forces anyone to feel a certain way or forces anyone to choose a certain thing, or to do or not do anything -- except when people are LITERALLY forced to do something (held up at gunpoint or attacked etc). When you are of an age where you can make your own decisions (so I am primarily focusing on adults here), any situation you are in of your own will, and any feeling you choose to nurture, is your responsibility.
No, no one deserves to be made fun of or ridiucled and everyone deserves to be treated with respect....
but if you *are* made fun of, you absolutely can choose how to feel about that and whether or not you are going to nurture that pain or choose another (and happier) feeling or experience.
Quote:
For the most part, we're taught to "ignore" bullies when it comes to certain topics (fat being not the only one, but one of them). There's a great deal of evidence form research studies that ignoring bullying and other antagonistic behavior does not decrease the behavior it reinforces, rewards, increases it. It's true in kindergarten and college (I've only seen the research in terms of academic arenas, but I suspect it's true in stalking and harassment cases as well) Those who report or retaliate against bullies, are bullied less than those who ignore it. So don't ignore it.
The research Gavin DeBecker cites in his books refutes this statement (just off the top of my head).
I can't honestly believe to any degree, me turning around and saying "hey stop that, I am a person with FEELINGS!!" to a group of jerky teenage boys making comments is going to promote anything but more laughter. Ignoring a bully deprives of them of what they desire the most... the ability to affect you.
I can't (and won't) compare the bullying of an obese person to child abuse, because one majoy component is missing. Though both situations of abuse are wrong, at least an adult obese person can choose to:
a.become less obese
b.seek social support
c.not surround themselves with abusive people
d.leave a situation they are uncomfortable with
e. pursue legal means of help themselves if they feel laws are being broken
f. legislate to change laws
etc... all of which an abused child can't do.
Bullies don't respond to common sense, I mean we are talking about people who abuse people for sport and expecting them to play by the rules of humanity. We are talking about people who lack tact, social skills, and an internal kindness compass and expecting them to respond to someone standing up for themselves and telling them to *stop* the behavior.
I digress.
I am sure aspects of the FA movement have been positive to some people (as I said in my very first post I feel mixed about it). I just don't resonate with the victim vibe I get from groups who claim to be empowering. The message being, empower yourselves, while a simultaneous message is being communicated that members are eternal victims in need of constant help.
Last edited by MyBestYear; 04-29-2010 at 02:44 PM.
Reason: Had to bold a part that clearly needed bolding.
I have lived most of my adult life (well) over 200lbs and I must live in a really nice area or something because I have never been ridiculed, laughed at, or made fun of in my entire adult life (outside of middle school) and I swim, go to the beach, walk, ride a bike, and whatever else. Whether these people do it in private or behind my back is both their personal weakness, as well as their personal right -- however wrong it is.
Could it be possible that there is a perception that everyone is laughing and making fun when really, most people probably don't care? I am not saying that stuff like that doesn't happen and I am not doubting personal experience that has been shared at all,
but I can't help thinking that an interloper reading this thread would leave with the impression that anytime a fat person tries to do anything ever there will be a crowd of people hurling abuses at them at every turn.
Last edited by MyBestYear; 04-29-2010 at 02:33 PM.
Reason: spell check!
I can compare the abuse of fat people to children, because I was a fat child and received abuse from both adults and other children because of it. It was even ENCOURAGED by the adults in my life.
I learned by the age of 6 or 7 that there was no safe haven from the abuse. When my mom went to the school to complain about the bullying I received from the PE teacher (an obese man, himself - who teased me and not only tolerated, but encouraged the other children to tease me) he told my mother he was doing it out of concern for me - so that I would be "inspired" to lose weight (in 1st or 2nd grade). AND MY MOTHER ACCEPTED THAT AS OK!
Where exactly was I supposed to turn?
I've tried desperately to lose weight most of my life (from the age of 5 when I was put on my first diet, on Weight Watcher's by age 8 and put on amphetemine diet pils by age 13).
When was I a victim? When did I have a choice in being victimized? I was told (and believed) that I had "control" over the situation even at 5 or 6 - because if I complained about how I was treated, I was told that I could stop it by "just" losing weight. God, how I wish it had been that simple.
I said numerous times in my posts I was talking about adults. Numerous times. I was careful to clarify that numerous times, so I think it is really unfair to imply that I was suggesting small children were empowered to get out of abusive situations.
I am very sorry for your abuse, and I truly mean that. I was abused as well to an equally painful degree (let's not delve into who has more hurt, that is so ugly and something I don't want to participate in).
...but I am not an abused child anymore. I am a grown adult empowered to choose my experience, and that is exactly what I am doing.
I am a survivor, not a victim and I won't choose the victim role anymore, and I won't buy it when someone tries to sell me on it -- as I personally believe is part of the role the FA plays.
Last edited by MyBestYear; 04-29-2010 at 02:42 PM.
I have lived most of my adult life (well) over 200lbs and I must live in a really nice area or something because I have never been ridiculed, laughed at, or made fun of in my entire adult life (outside of middle school) and I swim, go to the beach, walk, ride a bike, and whatever else. Whether these people do it in private or behind my back is both their personal weakness, as well as their personal right -- however wrong it is.
.
MyBestYear, that is great that you have not had those problems and it sounds like even if you ran into some of that crap, it wouldn't phase you at all. Bear with me, cause I always bring birth and breastfeeding into everything, soooo...
THat's how I feel about nursing in public. I always did, anytime anyplace, none of those coverups, no running to the bathroom or changing room. I never got any flak that I noticed and if I would have, I wouldn't have cared a bit. So it's hard for me to get why other women go to changing rooms, arrange huge tents over themselves, excuse themselves to back bedrooms, etc., to breastfeed. I scratch my head cause nursing in publc is such an easy thing for me. And I think if more women did it free of any self-consciousness, it would be a good thing, and why would someone feel self-conscious about it anyway?
But then women share the stories of mean looks and comments and being asked to move to the bathroom and oh yeah, we actually have a state law that says women can breastfeed where ever they have a right to be. So, they're protected by law.
If I were breastfeeding still and someone asked me to move or leave or cover up, I'd laugh in their face and explain the law to them. But some women cannot or will not do that, based on a myriad of reasons, some that reasonate with me and some that don't. Our experiences are different but just because I cannot imagine myself using the behaviors they might use, doesn't mean that they don't need those behaviors or have feelings that justify those behaviors....
I get it midwife, and I am not minimizing anyone's experience, I guess I am just saying that allowing a past experience or the fear of someone making fun of you to interfere with your life so much so that you choose to not participate in things you enjoy... I mean is the issue with them or... is the issue a little closer to home?
Yes, they are wrong to make fun or whatever, but you can't control their behavior or thoughts -- you can certainly control your own and that is no one else's responsibility.
I can't (and won't) compare the bullying of an obese person to child abuse, because one majoy component is missing. Though both situations of abuse are wrong, at least an adult obese person can choose to:
a.become less obese
b.seek social support
c.not surround themselves with abusive people
d.leave a situation they are uncomfortable with
e. pursue legal means of help themselves if they feel laws are being broken
f. legislate to change laws
etc... all of which an abused child can't do.
Child abuse is not equivalent to abuse of fat adults, I never said it was, but the comparisons are still valid. A cat is not a lion, but they share some similarities so comparisons of non-equivalent things is not invalid. Sharing the same paragraph does not mean the writer is saying the things are equivalent, only that there are some similarities. And I can tell you both from experience and from training/education that it's not always easy to distinguish the situations you have control over from those that you do not, especially when the situation has been going on since a time you had no choice.
Incest, and sexual abuse of children, for example (and for clarity I am not saying that such abuse is equivalent in any way to the treatment of obese children/adults) often continues into adulthood. When the adult incest victim (or even teen incest victim) finally reports the abuse, they are attacked in the courtroom and in the press for not reporting the abuse sooner. Why did they allow it to continue well past the point that they "had a choice?"
For example, the case of Jaycee Lee Dugard (abducted at 11 and found 18 years later, living with her captor and her children by the man - working in his business, with the opportunity to "escape" for years).
Learned helplessness is a powerful force, so it doesn't surprise me how people can become prisoners of it.
FA is about empowerment, not about playing and remaining the victim. That's very clear even with casual contact with the group. The group stresses personal empowerment not crying (and doing nothing) about being a victim.
As for the arguments made regarding the choices adult obese have, they defend FA far more better than they criticise it (because all but one, are main tenets of FA rhetoric).
a.become less obese
Easier said than done, so I really don't have time to go into it any further. It's a topic that FA doesn't deal with, and so in critiquing their position, it would be pointless.
b.seek social support
That's exactly what FA does, and one of it's top agenda. It provides that social support from people who understand what it's like to experience the issues.
c.not surround themselves with abusive people
Again that's one of the most vocal messages/agenda of FA
d.leave a situation they are uncomfortable with
Ditto, one of the most vocal messages/agenda of FA
e. pursue legal means of help themselves if they feel laws are being broken
Ditto, again of the most vocal messages/agenda of FA
I'm so sad that I'm just now seeing this thread because I think it's a great discussion and a prime example of just how difficult it is to sift through all of the contradictions out there about weight loss, what it means to be fat, etc...Because the truth is for every study or experience one person quotes or mentions there is another study or personal experience to refute those claims. I for one had a great grandmother who lived on her own, medication-free until she was 98 years old and she was a size 18 at 5'3". Now of course someone will come along and attempt to refute this claim by saying that's a rare occurance.
So here's my point, I support the fat acceptance movement because it attempts to address the social issues surrounding being fat. I don't care if somebody chooses to stay fat or not, but you deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, and honestly I don't hear everyone agreeing on this. A lot of the undertones of what I've heard throughout this thread is not understanding why all fat people don't/can't/won't get with the program and just lose weight. As a society we have been taught to hate and fear fat and so as with everything in this country that we hate and fear, we drum up statistics, studies and anything else official sounding to let everyone else know how horrible it is. The truth is, some fat people will get sick and die early and some won't. The truth is some thin people will get sick and die early and some won't. Instead of us focusing on how much of a drain obese people are on your healthcare system, we need to be talking about the fact that healthcare is treated as a commodity in this country and not a right, as it should be.
So why did I elect to lose weight and get healthier? Because diabetes runs in my family and my maternal grandmother died a horrible death from diabetes complications. Had I not had this kind of experience I'm not sure if I would've been so concerned. And now despite living a pretty healthy, active life why do I want to lose more weight? Because I'm brainwashed like most of us and I want my piece of the proverbial skinny girl pie. Underneath it all I still feel like being thin will somehow bring me something, take me someplace that my size 14 jeans won't. Now of course someone will come along and talk about how ridiculous this is, but nobody ever seems to criticize skinny people for wanting to lose more weight or making their lips bigger, or any other ill behaviors they have that we can't see because they don't wear it on their body like fat people do. What a different world we would live in if everyone had to walk around wearing a badge telling the rest of the world what their issues are. Just imagine walking in mall at your favorite skinny girl store and seeing neon signs on people's backs that read: sociopath, too clingy, prescription drug addict, suicidal, etc...
I don't care what anyone says, and it doesn't matter whether you have high self-esteem or not, more than likely you will end up hating your body no matter what your size if you ingest too much media. Period. I wish that we could all just live a healthy, judgemental-free life. Do whatever you want, live die, diet/ don't diet. It's your life and nobody has to live it but you.
As someone who has been teased by family, classmates, perfect strangers and my closest friends for all my 20 years, I'll endorse any campaign to make sure fat people are treated better.
That aside, the majority of crusaders for fat acceptance deep down would rather be thin, if they had a magic wand. The hardest thing to win is our own acceptance.
