MEAT vs. CARROTS

[nelie]

Wannabeskinny - I know vegan parents with vegan kids and their kids aren't suffering. I think though that there are definitely different forms of veganism and really you can get all the right nutrients and be strong but again it requires a varied diet. I don't eat much soy myself. Once in a while, I'll have tofu but it is usually only when I eat out. I get about 60-70g of protein per day which works well for me. For a while, I was getting a lot more (90-100g) but that was when I was drinking some hemp protein powder.

As for meatless Mondays, I think the big push behind that is the environmentalist movement. I know Baltimore city schools have gone to Meatless Mondays.

[JulieJ08]

Well, ironically, I became vegetarian *because* I started eating more meat because of the prevailing opinions about protein on these forums. I was never a big meat eater anyway (having been raised Seventh-day Adventist, who are usually vegetarian - we weren't vegetarian, but obviously not heavy meat eaters either). I had been feeling a little grossed out by meat for some time. As I tried to eat more meat (and by more, I only mean once a day), it just really magnified that feeling. Around the same time, I did some reading about meat and health. And about how meat is raised and processed in this country. And that was that . I do have a hard time imagining loving my current diet if I didn't love and prefer beans, tons of vegetables and whole grains.

I don't necessarily think eating meat is wrong. Meat may be more important (health-wise) in the diet of some people than others. The benefits of vegetarianism (health-wise) may be more important in the diets of some people than others.

But regardless, the way meat is raised and processed in this country, from both a humane point of view and a health point of view, is horrifying. While I may have a distaste for meat, I wouldn't be morally opposed to having it *if* raised, slaughtered and processed appropriately - but *that* happening is pretty rare.

On the other hand, I try not to be judgmental of all person who eat such meat. I would not expect anyone to starve or have worse health (if they are healthier with meat in their diet) because they can't afford properly raised and handled meats. And even if one could afford it or might even be healthier as a vegetarian, I am quite aware of how hard it is overcome societal beliefs that are so pervasive that the alternatives just seem like nonsense. Or how hard it is to change even when you know what you need to do. I'm certainly not perfect.

I do think eating well is the most important thing. I think that probably a high quality whole foods diet that includes pastured meat would be healthier than a junky, processed vegetarian diet.

But I also think we don't know as much about how healthy a whole foods vegetarian diet is as we should know. We have lots of studies about saturated fat, for example, but they don't generally distinguish vegan saturated fats from animal sources, or pastured from factory-raised.

[nelie]

Originally Posted by JulieJ08

I do think eating well is the most important thing. I think that probably a high quality whole foods diet that includes pastured meat would be healthier than a junky, processed vegetarian diet.

But I also think we don't know as much about how healthy a whole foods vegetarian diet is as we should know. We have lots of studies about saturated fat, for example, but they don't generally distinguish vegan saturated fats from animal sources, or pastured from factory-raised.

I agree with you completely. Although personally, I just can't recommend animal products, I think whole foods are really key to health. I'd also love to see more studies done as there is usual a bias on one side or the other.

[bargoo]

I like, Gary's sister, have cancer and I truly don't know if eating meat, or using artificial sweeteners , or eating foods with additives ( who knows what ) or using spray deodorants or room deodorizers or eating cool whip or other imitation food has a bearing. I suspect there are many environmental causes, I just don't know. I try to eat a healthy diet, not a lot of red meat but Im not a vegetarian. I thinkI have spent too many years doing all the dangerous stuff, smoking, drinking , eating additives in foods and all the other suspicious stuff , don't know if that is why I have cancer and my oncologist doesn't know either.

[Wannabeskinny]

Originally Posted by nelie

Wannabeskinny - I know vegan parents with vegan kids and their kids aren't suffering. I think though that there are definitely different forms of veganism and really you can get all the right nutrients and be strong but again it requires a varied diet. .

The argument between vegeterians and meat eaters is as highly charged as debates about religion. I love vegetables, they make up half of my diet, but I would never impose such a lifestyle on children. There's a difference between "all dairy is bad" and "too much dairy is bad" and I'm of the latter minded. I think the whole lifestyle of veganism is difficult to maintain, and especially challenging in the real world. Imagine the kids being the only ones at the party that can't eat anything, how are they supposed to handle these situations without being ostricized? I love cooking but I really do think about who I will invite over. I don't like having my hands tied behind my back. It's hard enough to cook for people with real allergies and wheat intolerances. Everybody is picky, everybody "can't eat this or that."

Originally Posted by nelie

As for meatless Mondays, I think the big push behind that is the environmentalist movement. I know Baltimore city schools have gone to Meatless Mondays.

There are many things we can accomplish and I like to vote with my dollars. I believe that the more often we buy organic and locally produced foods the lower their prices will be. Meatless Mondays may be environmentally driven but this is a real opportunity to change our health as well.

[nelie]

Originally Posted by Wannabeskinny

The argument between vegeterians and meat eaters is as highly charged as debates about religion. I love vegetables, they make up half of my diet, but I would never impose such a lifestyle on children. There's a difference between "all dairy is bad" and "too much dairy is bad" and I'm of the latter minded. I think the whole lifestyle of veganism is difficult to maintain, and especially challenging in the real world. Imagine the kids being the only ones at the party that can't eat anything, how are they supposed to handle these situations without being ostricized? I love cooking but I really do think about who I will invite over. I don't like having my hands tied behind my back. It's hard enough to cook for people with real allergies and wheat intolerances. Everybody is picky, everybody "can't eat this or that."

Yes, the debate can be heated but honestly I feel that vegans hold one of the biggest secrets and that vegan food is so good. I have been vegan for 2 years and I haven't found it difficult to maintain and the people that I know with vegan kids don't find it difficult to maintain. The one mother I talk to says that she makes all the meals for her kids and her kids love her cooking. They go to parties, they may bring cupcakes to share with other kids and food to share with other kids as well. They also try to find other vegan families in the area.

I went to a vegan Thanksgiving event last year and there were tons of kids. They said that they usually get about 500 people per year.

For me, if I go to someone's house, I offer to bring something, usually 1-2 dishes. We had a potluck recently, we brought 2 dishes and the hosts made us veggie kabobs along with making chicken kabobs. We were very happy.

I think if you believe a vegan and/or vegetarian and/or whatever life is important to you for whatever reason, then why would you compromise your beliefs because 'it is difficult' or 'i am around people who don't eat this way'. People say the same when they first start to lose weight and are surrounded by those who eat unhealthy, high calorie foods. What happens is that if you realize that what you believe is the right thing to do then you make it a priority and you do it.

[kaplods]

I don't know if it's because of the controversial aspect of the subject, or because of a human tendency towards polar opposition, but I think the middle sometimes gets lost in the discussions.

Most often the debate is between veganism and a high red meat/low produce diet. A middle-range option is so rarely explored. People tend to think (at least as reflected in the discussions) that the option is between "meat (and fat) and potatoes" and raw foods veganism.

There are many options in the middle. There was a study done about 15 years ago that compared meat and fruit/vegetable (non-grain) consumption independently.

Thus they compared vegetarians who ate a lot of fruits and vegetables (versus mostly grains and beans) to those who ate less. And also meat eaters who also ate a lot of fruits and vegetables also - and those who ate fewer.

Surprisingly (or maybe not) meat consumption was not associated with health problems nearly as strongly as vegetable consumption predicted good health. In fact, there was little or no significant difference between the vegetarians and non-vegetarians when the number of servings and variety variety of fruits and vegetables were compared.

The study concluded that vegetable and fruit consumption was the more important variable.

Some of the newer research is finding that grains may be a health problem for some people. For example there may be a link between grains and autoimmune disease - not just between gluten grains and celiac disease (a particular autoimmune disease).

Research studies can be confusing and conflicting - but I've never found a study yet that has found fruits and non-starchy vegetables to have any negative (or even neutral) consequences. Every study that has researched the subject (if anyone knows of an exception and can site the research, I'd appreciate it), has found that increasing the number of servings of whole fruits and non-starchy vegetables has health benefits.

So, personally I think everyone can start with that - eat more fruits and vegetables. The FDA recommends 5 or more (of combined fruit and vegetable) servings, though the research really would suggest almost twice that.

If you're eating 10 servings of fruits and vegetables, you probably are eating less meat and grains, if only because you don't have room for them.

The closest animal equivalent to humans is the chimp. The DNA is so similar, that some scientists argue that if we were talking about any species other than man (except wolf and dog) we would decide they were the same species. In the case of gray wolves and dogs - many scientists argue they ARE the same species.

But my point being that the optimal diet for a chimp is fruits, vegetables, insects, and more rarely starchy veggies, nuts, and meats - rarely grains.

Chimps do hunt and they do eat meat, but it's not a daily occurence. And when they do eat meat, they eat everything (not just the muscle tissue).

Even carnivores must eat more than the muscle tissue, as there are vital nutrients in the organs, skin, and bones.

No matter how nutritious, most North Americans are not willing to eat insects. Organ meats have lost popularity also. We're picky about the meat we eat - and generally the safer, least nutritious choices are the most popular. In general, the lower on the food chain, the safer (toxins, etc) the meat, so whether wild, or domestic, small animals that grow quickly would be the best choice. Rabbit, squirrel, guinea pig - all healthy, lean meats but they're not considered meat animals by most folks.

I'm starting to ramble, and am getting off track. My main point, is that there are a lot of options between veganism and meat/potato/fat (and little else). Reducing meat may be secondary to increasing the variety and quantity of fruits and vegetables, but at the very least focusing on eating more (fruits and vegetables) may feel less deprivational or punitary than focusing on eating less (whether that be meat, dairy, grains, sugar).

[nelie]

kaplods - I think I remember reading that study and I think I was a bit disappointed that veganism wasn't taken into account (only meat eater vs non-meat eater).

I also think when vegetarianism and, even worse, veganism is brought up, there is a reflex in some people to say 'you aren't taking my meat away from me!'. I made the personal choice to be vegan and I love it. I don't expect that others will make the same choice. Since it is my choice, I definitely think there are benefits of the diet or even moving towards the diet. I also found that my world expanded in terms of food once I went vegan. I tried restaurants and recipes and foods that I wouldn't have otherwise tried despite me being what I thought adventurous and experimental.

Each of us definitely has to find our own path though.

[kaplods]

Originally Posted by nelie

I also think when vegetarianism and, even worse, veganism is brought up, there is a reflex in some people to say 'you aren't taking my meat away from me!'.

I agree, but my main point is that elimination is not the only option (it is AN option, but not the only one). Elimination of favorite foods is a concern not only of omnivores, but almost anyone confronting any drastic diet change (you're not taking my Burger-King, my bread, my cookies and candy, my bacon, my cheesecake, my milk... It's as if people can envision only the polar opposite from their own position, and are so averse to that position they become resistant to even make one step toward the opposing pole).

I was reading a book recently, a combination gourmet cookbook and autobiography from a chef who has celiac disease. I can't recall the title or the author (if I do, I'll post), but she talks of her italian (I believe, or maybe french) heritage and food training, and how difficult it was for her to completely give up the crunchy-crusted bread and other favorite foods that contained gluten. Often she would eat them anyway, knowing she was compromising her health, and would suffer painful consequences.

With celiac disease, food allergies, diabetes, and many other health issues, "moderation" isn't always possible - that doesn't make elimination diets any easier. A person alway has the choice to make no change, and just suffer the consequences (including death). I knew a girl in college who had a shrimp/lobster allergy, but loved lobster. Once a year or so (at least she claimed, I asked her never to do so when eating with me, so I never witnessed it) she'd eat lobster and just take her epi-pen to the restaurant with her.

I suppose a person willing to face death for a favorite food, isn't going to be persuaded by arguments regarding the health benefits of eliminating that food from their diet.

I just find it interesting that small changes in diet are almost never (in my experience) discussed. People argue against making ANY change rather than facing an extreme change - and my question is why more people don't embrace the middle ground (or maybe they do, and just don't talk about it much).

[JulieJ08]

I don't know. When I was researching vegetarianism, I ran into lots of advice about making the change partially or gradually. I don't seem to encounter much extreme polarity myself.

[EZMONEY]

Obviously it is hard to believe all research...especially when we see who financed it.

However I think with all the knowledge we have available to us today certain things are absolute truths ~

#1 ~ There is cruelty to animals for profit

#2 ~ Fruits and Vegetables are good for us for health and fighting off disease

#3 ~ The better we eat the better our odds are at having healthy lives

#4 ~ Our animals are fed things we wouldn't feed them ourselves

#5 ~ Cancer can take anyone out at anytime! It has no favorites

Thank all of you for your advice and comments...keep them coming!

[nelie]

Kaplods - When I talk about my own transition, I definitely had a period of transition from regular meat eater to infrequent meat eater. I went from eating meat every day to eating it a couple days per week to eating it once a week. The actual change to veganism did come over night for me.

I am also all for any lessening of eating animal products. My mom shocked me one day when she said she was eating more vegetarian meals. Then she told me she had been eating vegan for over a month and again I was shocked. I tried to give her as much info and tips that I could. She has started eating eggs again (she doesn't eat soy and was having some trouble with beans) and I have to say I'm ecstatic that she has made such a change. I can tell you that coming from our heritage, not eating meat and not eating cheese is definitely thought of as crazy.

I would also never ever tell anyone that they should be vegetarian or vegan or what not. I will often give the reasons that I am and I will share my beliefs but everyone needs to do what they believe is right for them.

[Suzanne 3FC]

Gary, I think your #1 There is cruelty to animals for profit is the most important aspect for me. Like most people, I used to be a budget conscious cook and ignored anything I was confronted with in regards to the animals situation because it was easier just not to know. Many people on our own forums have said the exact same thing. I never really knew the extent to which the animals were tortured before and even during death. But once you know, once you really know, and if you have even the tiniest bit of conscience, how can you choose otherwise?

I think that if you carefully source small farm raised animals that are treated ethically and allowed to graze naturally in the pastures, that eating this meat is ok. But it's so much more expensive to raise animals ethically and most people are going to tap their wallets before they tap their conscience. It's a sad state of humankind. But if people take the time to learn about other sources of protein, they'll discover that going meatless is healthier and loads cheaper!

Eggs - Most people would rather pay one dollar for a dozen eggs gathered from a torture facility than 4 dollars for eggs from happy chickens. Even here you have to be careful. As Nelie pointed out, free range doesn't really mean free range. There is no legal definition for free range and it can simply mean skylights in the coop.

Cancer - A recent study of 500,000 people over a period of 6 years showed the highest risk of pancreatic cancer in those that ate meat and dairy. Within those results, the people that ate the highest amounts of saturated fats had 36% higher risk than those that ate the lowest amounts of saturated fats. Similar studies have shown increased risks of all cancers.

Global warming - Meat is is responsible for about 20% of global warming due to the massive amounts of CO2 and methane released from feed lots. Some experts have boldly stated that we could eliminate global warming risks if we just gave up meat and dairy. Even cutting out a percentage of your regular diet can make a dramatic change.

I refuse to support an industry based on the physical torture of animals. If people treated dogs like that, what do you think the public would do/say? Then why treat cows and chickens the same way? Greed? I won't even buy leather products anymore because it supports the industry. I even feed my dogs organic free range dog food.


Save money, save yourself, and save the planet. Go vegetarian.

[Wannabeskinny]

Originally Posted by kaplods

I just find it interesting that small changes in diet are almost never (in my experience) discussed. People argue against making ANY change rather than facing an extreme change - and my question is why more people don't embrace the middle ground (or maybe they do, and just don't talk about it much).

My lifestyle change comrprises of only small changes at a time, it takes me months to incorporate small additions or eliminations from my diet and that's the way it should be for longterm success. I think most of us "embrace the middle ground" and find ways to compromise on what we want vs. what we should eat.

I have truly worked hard to change my lifestyle from that of an obese binger who went through the drive through everyday, to becoming largely vegeterian, minimal animal products, and especially adding foods that made me go YUCK like flax see, barley, 100% whole grains, brown rice, and other forms of cardboard . So clearly I see the value of going vegan, but I don't think I need to go all the way to enjoy a healthier lifestyle. So now I measure out my cheeses, making sure I eat real cheese and not processed deli slices. I've made so many changes to our life (mine and my husband's), and I'm content that I've made a real impact in our health and fitness.

I applaud and support anyone who chooses to lead a vegan lifestyle. I know it takes a lot of discipline to do so, and must take a tremendous amount of research to train children in this manner. I may be prejudiced in this subject but my experience with vegans is that they always seem sickly, too thin, and always suffering with allergies. It's always a little uncomfortable having picky eaters over for dinner as they seem to question every little thing "Are these organic mushrooms? If I don't eat organic it stimulates my IBS" and off they go describing every detail of their functions. Not to mention that I dated a vegan for 5 minutes back in college and all he did was lecture me on the evils of milk.

[nelie]

Well I'm definitely not too thin, I have no allergies (unless you count penicillin which I had since being a non vegan child) and I get sick a bit less now that I'm vegan. My blood results (and those of my husband) always astound the doctors in terms of vitamins as well as normal items. My PCOS/hypoglycemia nor have my gall bladder issues resurfaced since being vegan. I've only met healthy vegans myself and I've met a number.

I also lift weights/kettlebells, kayak, run, hike and recently started doing karate. My body fat percentage has gone down, my muscle weight has gone up and my husband has had the same experience. I was just amazed the other day at fitting in clothes that I could barely fit in 2 years ago just after I became vegan but I was 10 lbs lighter. so for me, I'd say its working.