[BerkshireGrl]

Do I feel bad for Michael Vick? Not one iota.

He first plead not guilty, that is until his 2 co-defendants rolled over on him. Then he got a plea bargain down from a 5 year maximum to 23 months.

From a Forbes article: "Vick initially denied any knowledge about dogfighting on the property. He changed his story after the co-defendants pleaded guilty and detailed Vick's involvement."

He first lied about his involvement in the dog fighting... then lied about his own hands-on killing of dogs... then lied about using pot when he was to be drug-free during his pre-trial release...

I mean, come on! One of his methods of eliminating dogs that weren't aggressive enough in his dog fights was to wet them down and electrocute them. This is someone to feel sorry for? And he wasn't even supposedly in it for prize money payouts... I guess he was just in it for the fun?

He was also brought to court in 2003, by a civil suit filed by Sonya Elliot, for knowingly giving her herpes. At the time he was using the alias he also used to get herpes treatment: "Ron Mexico". The suit settled for an unreported sum of money.

So... yeah, sure I'll pray... for him to stay FAR AWAY from kids. I don't think the world needs any charity work that involves him spreading his false humility.

[aphil]

Originally Posted by mom2fivesweeties

One more thought: We have a son whom we adopted at 3 years old. He has PTSD from his family of origin. He has been in and out of psych hospitals and EVERY time he is re-admitted, they ask if he ever ABUSED animals. What does that tell you? It tells you that for a human being to do this, the professionals consider that person a DANGER to people and reasons for being in a psych hospital.[/B]

Lori

They also use information like this in profiling serial killers. Many serial killers as children abuse/torture animals. It just shows that at a young age, they don't value, or show remorse for, life. Later on, it can get worse-and transfer over to other humans.


As far as my personal opinion, I don't feel sorry for him at all. I live in Indiana, and our two sports teams are literally like night and day. The Colts football team are doing charity work, going to children's hospitals, and doing all of that sort of thing in the news...while the Pacers basketball team are on the news all of the time for basically being "thugs". The members are always involved in bar fights, shootings, court appearances, and what have you.

I hate it when a sports star, celebrity, or whatever else thinks that their status and money entitle them to be above the law. You have some celebrities and stars who use their status to promote charities and do good things...and you have the others who do whatever they want, and expect to get away with it.

I don't think that Vick is sorry...especially because his behavior with those animals was repeated over and over...and he has other instances of damaging behavior, such as the incident with the herpes. That shows he has no regard for the lives of animals, OR women.

I know many don't believe in my views...so I will be as restrained as I possibly can-but I think that if punishments were allowed legally to mirror the crime (Castration for child molestors, etc....) that we would have a LOT less crime. It isn't fair to me, that someone can torture and mutilate someone or something, and then be sent to a prison where they are fed 3 meals a day, do jobs to earn money for cigarettes and phone cards, watch tv, and lift weights.

[techwife]

Originally Posted by aphil

It isn't fair to me, that someone can torture and mutilate someone or something, and then be sent to a prison where they are fed 3 meals a day, do jobs to earn money for cigarettes and phone cards, watch tv, and lift weights.

....and he'll likely be coronated as king of the prison the minute he gets in there, to boot. I like your insinuation of punishment for him better than a prison sentence. Prison for him won't be a punishment, IMHO.

[flowerindarain]

Yes, he may have grown up around it, but he had the choice to either abuse innocent animals or not. He chose to abuse and kill those poor dogs and is choosing to not show remorse. I don't feel the least bit sorry for him, he seems to feel sorry enough for himself.

[freiamaya]

There are LOTS of cultural practices which are not acceptable, and lots of "traditions" that people grow up around which just don't cut it in today's society -- wives burning themselves on their husband's funeral pyre, "honor killings" which are carried out here, racist group membership, female genital mutilation, polygamy, and so on. Not so long ago, we all encouraged others to "have one for the road", and drunk driving was considered "culturally acceptable" (think back to the 1970s). Being a "cultural practice" doesn't make it right.
His conduct shows his character, and I don't want that type of character publically rewarded.
Jail is a fine, fine place, and then, hopefully, complete and utter obscurity...
Maya

[ennay]

but i don't understand how gary colllins who killed a guy from a dwi gets to serve only like 83 days and the case is closed and michael vick has 23 months. do we value animal life more than human life? what a slap in the face for the people's family that gary collins killed

Going back to this even though I put the comparison as not relevant....

I dont believe this is placing the value of animal life above the human life. If I had to sit in a courtroom and was told one guy got 83 days and one guy got 23 months- you pick... I would do it the same way.

Gary Collins went out with the intention to get drunk. (semantics aside) While he certainly should be held liable for the results of that decision, I do not believe that he in any way had INTENT to harm another human being. He was stupid, moronic, etc, but I dont believe he was making that conscious choice to harm another. While he should have been able to see the POSSIBILITY of causing harm, it wasnt his purpose.

Michael Vick tortured, maimed and killed for the purpose of torturing maiming and killing. There was evil intent behind his actions, he did them full in knowledge of the outcome of his actions.

Its not the victim that differentiates the cases, its the thought behind it that tells me Vick is a greater harm to society.

[aphil]

I agree with ennay. It is the same as someone killing someone in a car accident, vs. someone abducting and murdering someone on purpose. Someone dies in both instances, but one was accidental, the other on purpose.

[lola06]

I agree with the original post. I believe what Vick did was wrong, but I don't think the punishment fits the crime. I think there is a fundamental flaw in the way in which people are punished and for what in this country. For example, in the state of New York selling and possessing cocaine carries a MUCH lighter sentence than crack, which is typically found in poor urban communities as opposed to the more affluent communities that typically uses cocaine.

I also think the lobby for animal rights is much stronger than other causes, which informs how people are punished in our society. And I absolutely DO believe in comparing sentences in the context and for the purpose of analyzing our criminal justice system. Historically, the US in well-known for punishing people VERY subjectively.

I know there were a few comments about the fact that Michael Vick had "everything" and he got what he deserved. But there are several people in our society who commit heinous acts of violence or are complicit in such acts, like in the Iraq war, yet most go unpunished. Our Vice President can "accidentally" shoot someone, but there's no punishment. Our president can send more troops to Iraq with no resolution in sight, and there's no punishment. He's lied to the American people on several occassions, yet there is no punishment.

The criminal justice system isn't only supposed to be punitive, there should be an element of rehabilitation. Most people may not want to hear that, but rehabilitation in the long-run is better for creating a safer society. Once all the jails are filled then what?

Sorry for the long post.

[aphil]

I personally don't think 23 months is too long for purposeful, repetitive, killing and torturing. I just don't. It seems short, actually, to me.

But then again, I think that child killers and molestors shouldn't get 10 years, 20 years, etc. I think they should be castrated and get life with no parol, or death penalty. (But I know and accept that not everyone believes in the death penalty...and I don't want to argue about that here.)

I don't think that it is Vick's sentence that is unfair, but OTHER cases that are unfair. (such as OJ getting off for double murder...someone only getting 5-7 years for brutal aduction and rape, etc.)

I don't think that Cheney's incident really has any similarity, simply because it was an accident. Accidents happen, but once again, that is different than doing it on purpose. Do I think he should have gone to jail-no. Do I think that the victim has the right to sue for medical bills, and pain and suffering-YES.

There was a driver recently in our town who was in an accident that caused a power outage for half the town for a few hours. He was drinking, and got off with a DUI. Do I think that was enough-NO.

The reason why, is because the outage affected my husband's company. They make auto windows/windshields, and my husband had glass going through the safety tempering furnace. When the power went out, the glass got stuck in there too long (conveyor wouldn't bring it out, because there was no power.) and the glass melted everywhere-destroying everything and causing multi-million dollar damage in just minutes, plus downtime that cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour. (They were down for a couple days.) Do the math.

I don't think someone spending the night in the slammer and the DUI is good enough. There were other businesses (including where I work as well) that were all down for hours, costing loss of money for many, many people. Millions and millions of dollars altogether, in our small town. Unfortunately, the police can't do anything other than deal with the DUI-the companies and businessed have to sue this guy on their own for damages.

[kaplods]

The penalties for dogfighting have been high, long before most states (except maybe California) even considered "animal rights," as a factpr. I don't think the penalty has much to do with the dog "victims" at all, but rather the but rather the "criminal underworld" connections it has had. I think that you can argue that it is a crime about "class" in that it isn't exactly the "sport of kings" and you're not going to find a lot of upper middle class men and women seeking out the dog and cock fights.

Knowing the criminal justice system from the inside out, even with "truth in sentencing laws" in place in more jurisdictions a 23 month sentence does not mean 23 months incarcerated. In fact, I would wager that he's more likely to do 1/2 of his sentence or less than he is do 2/3 or more.

Knowing what I know about houw sentences are decided, I stick by my statement that anything the law allows is "fair" and anything less is "lucky."
There are many factors that go into a persons sentence, factors most of us will never know, unless we go down to the courthouse and ask to see the court file (they are available to anyone who requests to see them - at least that was true in the county I worked in Illinois. I imagine there is a lot of red tape in some areas, though). In my experience, the biggest factor was ticking off the judge. Is that fair? Well, it's reality. If he's the guy making the decision, it doesn't hurt your case to be very, very respectful. I advised so many of my probationees to "kiss up to the judge," and those that listened did a lot better than those who did not. Such as a lady who wore a very, very obscene t-shirt to court. She got a stiffer sentence than she would have, if she had made a different wardrobe choice. I happened to see her after court, and I was astonished that anyone would wear THAT in public, let alone in front of the judge. Was it fair? Not, really I guess, but the judge took it as a sign of disrespect (knowing the woman, I think it was more a sign of severe stupidity).

There are also "minimum" sentences for every crime, and I don't know what the minimum sentence is for the crimes Vick is convicted of. That might have tied the judge's hands, or (as I suspect) his disrespect for the law and those in authority may have had a lot more to do with his sentence (if in fact it is a harsher than average one). Lying to authorities, inconsistent testimonly, arrogance or a disrespectful attitude, these are all things that in my experience guarantee a harsher sentence. I saw many people get away with repeated "second chances," just because they behaved politely when arrested and incarcerated and could present a humble, contrite appearance in front of the judge.

[aphil]

kaplods-I completely agree with you.

A friend of mine is a probation officer, and her husband a police officer-and they can't believe what people *do* sometimes. Why would you wear a shirt with the "F" word on it to court, or interrupt or backtalk to the judge???




I just don't get it sometimes-where people's thought processes come into play.

[EZMONEY]

We live in a sick society....if he comes around my golden's I will shoot his eye out! Does that then make ME the bad person?

[NemesisClaws]

Don't feel sorry for the fellow either....just feel bad for all the dogs that suffered under his and other's hands....

It does make you wonder though....most serial killers and whatnot generally do show an incident in their childhood where they have abused or tortured animals....makes you wonder how long it would've been before Vicks got bored with this "activity" and graduated to humans...after all, if you've got no issues with doing it to animals, making the leap to humans isn't all that difficult...

[mom2fivesweeties]

AMEN, GARY!! YOU AND ME BOTH!!!! MY BABIES BETTER NOT BE THREATENED BY ANYONE LIKE THAT SICK PERSON!!!
LORI

[Diana the Hun]

I'm truly the most empathetic person I've ever known, and I simply cannot muster any pity for this man. What he did makes me shake with rage. I cannot bear the thought of animal cruelty and, while I don't like to wish ill on anyone, I hope Karma repays him tenfold for the suffering he caused those animals. I have no tolerance for the suffering of animals, I don't care what colour you are or your social status (hello, celebrities in fur, I'm looking at you too!).

Can any of you look into your pets' eyes and bring yourself to strangle, beat up, electrocute or send them to a violent death? There has to be something seriously wrong with anyone who can do such things, and statistically it has been proven that most of history's notorious serial killers started out hurting neighbourhood animals.