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HFCS one of the worse things ever for weight gain/obesity/bad health?

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Old 09-26-2013, 06:08 PM   #46
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HFCS vs. table sugar http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/a.../S26/91/22K07/

I have a degree in Biology but am not a scientist. I do think that the folks at Princeton conducted a fairly good study on HFCS.

Thoughts JohnP? (Happy to find more if you're interested.)
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:54 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by konablue View Post
HFCS vs. table sugar http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/a.../S26/91/22K07/

I have a degree in Biology but am not a scientist. I do think that the folks at Princeton conducted a fairly good study on HFCS.

Thoughts JohnP? (Happy to find more if you're interested.)
This is the third time this study has been referenced in this thread. Twice by diamondgeog and now by you.

My thoughts are already in this thread.

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3) Many studies are showing it is more addictive than sugar. Is this a fact? I'm not aware of this fact. If you want to have a reasonable discussion you need to drop the hyperbole or link up these studies so we can see them. I would define many as three or more but post as many as you want. Before posting you may want to actually read the study or at least have a true understanding of what the study does and doesn't say. The Princton study is a perfect example. Many people tout it as demonstrating something that it does not. It's mind boggling that apparently no one has even read it. They just read the conclusion where the scientists seemingly ignored their own data. Plus, we're not rats.
I also posted a much more detailed analysis of the study by an actual expert.

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this is a good article that addresses fructose metabolism and the afformentioned rat study.
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:23 PM   #48
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Kona,

Good points about the corn being GMO. Another potentially big concern. I think genetic expression is going to become more and more a focus in the coming years.

We are finding more and more that lifestyle choices can result in gene expression and suppression. And yes we have no idea the potential negative consequences of GMO corn.

JohnP what would you have scientists do? Rats have been surrogates for studies for centuries. And there are just as many industry supported studies touting HFCS it is JUST SUGAR!

At least I am open to all the unknowns surrounding HFCS. It seems you have determined it is no more deleterious than sugar. I don't see it, too many unknowns, too many, if not perfect, at least well enough done studies to raise a lot of unresolved questions about HFCS.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:05 PM   #49
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diamondgeog- couldn't agree more. As I said I will stick with fresh organic fruit for my sweet tooth. Can't go wrong with whole foods. But I do hope people look more deeply into the food they choose to eat as well as feed their families. HFCS, GMO's, pesticides, corn-fed beef, commercially raised chickens... there is a lot to investigate. Just make sure those studies you are reading aren't funded by the FDA or Monsanto.

JohnP- Didn't realize Princeton was devoid of "actual experts". Thank you for setting me straight.
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:09 PM   #50
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I will first admit that I haven't read all of the responses and/or links; but I have considered the research, articles, and video lectures of Dr Robert Lustig. He stated quite clearly in the Sugar: The Bitter Truth lecture (on youtube) that all sugars are not equal in the stomach and especially not in the liver. Fructose is particularly toxic in the liver; more so than other types of sugars and almost equal to alcohol. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/ma...anted=all&_r=0

That lecture is a long and quite scientific discussion which I listened to in its entirety-88 minutes--admitedly it was several weeks ago. But, I will choose to take my advice from this doctor who specializes in pediatric endocrinology and obesity. I believe him when he says fructose, glucose, sucrose and HFCS are not equal in the body and/or liver. When you are taking advice from the internet; you should definitely consider the source and review the information yourself rather than just from random posters on a forum.

ETA: I believe that sugar is toxic (all of it regardless of type) which is why I limit all types and practice a lowish/moderate carb diet.

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Old 09-26-2013, 10:41 PM   #51
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I'm a dual citizen of the US and the UK and have lived extended periods in both countries. If you want the quick answer as to why the UK is not quite as obese as the US look no further than the automobile. When in the UK cars were for trips to the grocery store and long journeys. Other than that we walked everywhere. Even the use of plentiful public transportation required a walk to and from the train station, or from one bus route to the one on another street. The US lifestyle is a much more sedentary one than what I experienced living in the UK. HFCS has nothing to do with it IMO.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:19 PM   #52
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JohnP- Didn't realize Princeton was devoid of "actual experts". Thank you for setting me straight.
You asked for my thoughts on the study. I gave them. I then linked the thoughts of an actual expert on the same study. Obviously you have not read the Princton study, nor the discection of the study. I was not insinuating that Princeton has no experts. I was merely pointing out that my thoughts are pretty meaningless as I am not an expert.

Speaking of the Princton study, I'm certain Princeton does have plenty of experts but if you actually look at the data in the study you have no choice but to question the conclusion that the blogsphere ran with.

Here are some questions for you. Do you believe that smart people who do studies have no bias? Do you think experts on a topic matter are imune to bias? Do you think sarcasm is a good way to communicate and forward your beliefs?
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:30 PM   #53
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But, I will choose to take my advice from this doctor who specializes in pediatric endocrinology and obesity. I believe him when he says fructose, glucose, sucrose and HFCS are not equal in the body and/or liver. When you are taking advice from the internet; you should definitely consider the source and review the information yourself rather than just from random posters on a forum.
Fortunately no one is saying that fructose, glucose, sucrose and HFCS are equal in the body. That would be a demonstration of ignorance.

The issue at hand in this thread is not sugar, it is HFCS vs sugar. Everyone on this thead agrees that too much sugar or HFCS is bad. Where we seem to disagree is if HFCS is bad in any quantities or not as well as if HFCS is in large part responsible for the obesity epidemic.

As for Lustig, he has done a lot to raise the awareness of sugar which is great. Sadly his video ignores the fact that the dangers of fructose depend entirely on context and dose. I'm not going to bother educating you on the subject. You just go ahead and keep on believing that fructose is evil because Lustig says it is and ignore the evidence that dose and context matter.
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:10 AM   #54
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This is a basic biochemistry question and the answer is yes - once they hit your stomach they are exactly the same. What happens from there depends.
I'm not ignoring any evidence, I'm disagreeing with you. You specifically said that once they hit the stomach they are exactly the same. You said it several times. I said that the effect is not the same in the liver according to Dr Lustig. You are free to agree or disagree with him or me. Luckily, I earned my degree from an accredited college; so I don't need your opinionated version of an education. I sincerely doubt that your credentials are more impressive than Dr Lustig's.
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Old 09-27-2013, 01:56 AM   #55
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I'm not ignoring any evidence, I'm disagreeing with you. You specifically said that once they hit the stomach they are exactly the same. You said it several times. I said that the effect is not the same in the liver according to Dr Lustig. You are free to agree or disagree with him or me. Luckily, I earned my degree from an accredited college; so I don't need your opinionated version of an education. I sincerely doubt that your credentials are more impressive than Dr Lustig's.
They (sucrose commonly known as table sugar and HFCS) are the same (virtually) once they hit the stomach. That is what I was talking about. The bonding makes no difference because the bonds come undone in the stomach. Sucrose is 50% glucose and 50% fructose. HFCS is 45% glucose and 55% fructose.

No one is saying that glucose is the same as fructose, nor implying it.

I have no idea why you're mentioning my credentials. I have none. I can read, I have common sense. Therefore I know that dose matters. Lustig is talking about fructose but ignoring dose. He is also completely ignoring context.

We're just going around in circles here...
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Old 09-27-2013, 03:13 AM   #56
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The reason I was talking about your credentals is because you took the condescending tone that you couldn't be bothered to educate me. We are going in circles which is kind of like Alan Aragon and Dr Lustig went in circles on the same topic. Since those experts in their field cannot agree we are not likely to either. We can just assume you will continue your regurgitation of Aragon's critique and I could then respond with Lustig's rebuttals. But, there isn't much point in that.

There is a valid debate in the topic...the experts cannot even agree. Which is why I had a problem with the way you present your arguments. You assume that everyone who disagrees with you is an uneducated idiot. You even went so far as to call out the OP and give him an F on his topic which was rude and unnecessary. So, carry on without me and if you run out of talking points from Aragon or his comment section, just attack the intelligence of anyone who dares to have a different opinion. I guess that is one way to "win" a debate.
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:48 AM   #57
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The reason I was talking about your credentals is because you took the condescending tone that you couldn't be bothered to educate me. We are going in circles which is kind of like Alan Aragon and Dr Lustig went in circles on the same topic. Since those experts in their field cannot agree we are not likely to either. We can just assume you will continue your regurgitation of Aragon's critique and I could then respond with Lustig's rebuttals. But, there isn't much point in that.

There is a valid debate in the topic...the experts cannot even agree. Which is why I had a problem with the way you present your arguments. You assume that everyone who disagrees with you is an uneducated idiot. You even went so far as to call out the OP and give him an F on his topic which was rude and unnecessary. So, carry on without me and if you run out of talking points from Aragon or his comment section, just attack the intelligence of anyone who dares to have a different opinion. I guess that is one way to "win" a debate.
Applause! Thank you! I really hate it when someone is trying to make a point and someone else comes along and tries to make people feel stupid.

Am I the only one who does all the reading, takes in all the information and then doesn't give a damn about it? I don't need no stupid study to tell me what's good for me and what's not. You'd have to be an idiot to think that HFCS is good for you or any modified crop or any processed food. I very much align myself with Dr. Lustig's findings. Does that mean I don't eat sugar? Well no it doesn't, and I'm sure Lustig eats sugar too. But the way it's made me understand the effect of sweeteners on my body is priceless. I have come such a long way from feeling worthless and unmotivated, from feeling like my cravings meant that I was flawed, that I was a lazy slob, that I didn't have the ability to change my weight/eating. The knowledge of how sugar affects me let me know exactly that food has a direct impact on my body, on my cravings and on my actions. If I'm jonesing for a cookie it doesn't mean I'm a weak willed person.... it just means I've overloaded on carbs and that overload has led to more cravings.

OP, if you know and believe that HFCS is not good for you or your family, spend the time needed to monitor your family's food. Work with the school board to remove unhealthy foods from the lunch menu, don't buy boxed treats for your kids, we need to generate a society that thinks about what they put in their bodies, rather than continuing to eat junk food and waiting for some miraculous moment where our government is going to take care of us and help us overcome the overexposure to processed foods. When the FDA is in bed with lobbies there's not much being done for us, we must do for ourselves. I sure as heck am not waiting around for someone to tell me HFCS is bad for me or worse than sugar because I don't need that information to make stay away from it.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:56 AM   #58
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Applause! Thank you! I really hate it when someone is trying to make a point and someone else comes along and tries to make people feel stupid.

Am I the only one who does all the reading, takes in all the information and then doesn't give a damn about it? I don't need no stupid study to tell me what's good for me and what's not. You'd have to be an idiot to think that HFCS is good for you or any modified crop or any processed food. I very much align myself with Dr. Lustig's findings. Does that mean I don't eat sugar? Well no it doesn't, and I'm sure Lustig eats sugar too. But the way it's made me understand the effect of sweeteners on my body is priceless. I have come such a long way from feeling worthless and unmotivated, from feeling like my cravings meant that I was flawed, that I was a lazy slob, that I didn't have the ability to change my weight/eating. The knowledge of how sugar affects me let me know exactly that food has a direct impact on my body, on my cravings and on my actions. If I'm jonesing for a cookie it doesn't mean I'm a weak willed person.... it just means I've overloaded on carbs and that overload has led to more cravings.

OP, if you know and believe that HFCS is not good for you or your family, spend the time needed to monitor your family's food. Work with the school board to remove unhealthy foods from the lunch menu, don't buy boxed treats for your kids, we need to generate a society that thinks about what they put in their bodies, rather than continuing to eat junk food and waiting for some miraculous moment where our government is going to take care of us and help us overcome the overexposure to processed foods. When the FDA is in bed with lobbies there's not much being done for us, we must do for ourselves. I sure as heck am not waiting around for someone to tell me HFCS is bad for me or worse than sugar because I don't need that information to make stay away from it.
I could not agree more about understanding sugar/carbs and the effects it had. I could never understand how I could have a huge 1000 calorie plus meal at a fast food restaurant and be hungry so soon again. It was difficult for a bit to lower my carbs, but so worth it. We don't buy bread or pasta anymore. I haven't had a candy bar or much fast food since May. Fries maybe 3 times, but not as many as before, a shared small Five Guys with 3 people. Whereas before I probably had a medium by myself.

In any event the last 100 years is riddled with products that have turned out to be deadly. Often the industries know about it, but of course, profits overrule everything. I don't know HFCS is in this category, but as pointed out avoiding HFCS means avoiding a lot of processed food so it is a good thing anyway.

I will say to JohnP that dose and context matter. Speaking of context, I am not a biochemist, but I am not willing to say that HFCS is just different in the 55% to 50%. Way too many unknowns to say that is the only difference. Besides industry has no qualms about putting out 60% to 65% HFCS and even as high as 90% HFCS.

I personally don't think the lower cost was the whole story. I think industry found something even more addictive (sweeter) than sugar and ran with it for all the dollar signs in the world. And it was/is part of the obesity and diabetes 'epidemic'.
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Old 09-27-2013, 11:56 AM   #59
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It is baffling to me that anyone could have done any amount of reading with an open mind and come to the conclusion that context and dose do not make the poison in regards to HFCS because it is essentially the same thing as sugar.

Too much fructose is a bad thing. Too much is the part that Lustig doesn't talk about. Fructose is not only in HFCS, it is in sucrose. If your diet has too much sugar you're going to have a bad time. How much sugar is too much depends. It's called context. This is not complicated, at all. Where the experts disagree is in how much is too much. Only a few "experts" like Taubes go so far as to say any sugar is bad.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:04 PM   #60
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I will say to JohnP that dose and context matter.
Step 1 to blogsphere headline recovery is admitting a simple truth is true.

I've been where you were a couple years ago. The more you learn about the diet/health industry the more you'll find that many highly educated experts forget this simple truth.

If you like this subject I would strongly suggest you spend $10 over at AARR which gives you access to all the research review Alan Aragon has done to date. He discusses the strengths and weaknesses of headline grabbing studies and what they tell us and their limitations.
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