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-   -   I so enjoyed the trans fat discussion - can we do soy now? (http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/food-talk-fabulous-finds/151667-i-so-enjoyed-trans-fat-discussion-can-we-do-soy-now.html)

yoyonomoreinvegas 09-16-2008 04:39 PM

I so enjoyed the trans fat discussion - can we do soy now?
 
OK, here's my take - couple of sites out there are saying you should only consume fermented soy products while unfermented products such as tofu should be avoided at all costs. These sites are claiming unfermented soy can cause everything from man boobs (if boy children are fed soy formulas as infants - this one was on a health forum board kind of like 3FC so I don't know the original source - probably a lemming opinion) to supressed thyroid function (obesity rears it's ugly head yet again).

A little further delving turns up some info that the beans used in non-certified organic soy products have been genetically modified. Aha! Here we go again! Mucking up something that didn't need mucking to start with.

So, my humble opinion: Soy products in any form are fine as long as they are made from organic (non-genetically modified) beans. Non organic, genetically modified crops = :fr: unless it's been fermented to kill whatever the genetically modified organism lurking in there is - but then, if it's non-organic, the fermentation process was probably artificially expedited which would be a new can of genetically altered worms.

(go ahead, debunk me :D )

zeffryn 09-16-2008 05:33 PM

I feel the same way, genetically modified anything is pretty scary. We use soy products in moderation and processed soy (tofu dogs, etc.) extremely moderately (at my DS' birthday, he had some extremely picky eaters come...I bought a package of hotdogs to keep the beast quiet. DS ate a tofudog and nobody was the wiser). We do try to avoid anything with overly processed soy products - it's a great, cheap filler....like HFCS is to sweetener. :)

DS was also allergic to regular milk when he was younger and we gave him soy and goats milk. The soy was given to him much to MIL's chagrin as she said she "heard it would give them boobs". I found so many articles for and against the use of soy that it was difficult to make any sort of informed decision on the matter. It seems there is always a website out there to corroborate any sort of stance one might take on an issue.

JulieJ08 09-16-2008 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoyodieterinvegas (Post 2364610)
Non organic, genetically modified crops = :fr: unless it's been fermented to kill whatever the genetically modified organism lurking in there is

I believe the soybean itself is genetically modified. You can't kill it, it's already a dead bean ;). I read somewhere that almost all soy product grown in the US is genetically modified unless it is organic.

zeffryn 09-16-2008 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulieJ08 (Post 2364678)
I believe the soybean itself is genetically modified.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this.

in 2006, 89% (up almost 1000% since 1997 where only 8% were) of the soybeans grown in the US were genetically modified to be "roundup ready" or resistant to conventional herbicides and pesticides. That sounds bad, but it allows for no-till farming which greatly reduces soil erosion.

That being said, we buy organic.

yoyonomoreinvegas 09-16-2008 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeffryn (Post 2364694)
That being said, we buy organic.

As you said in another post "Amen Sister" :D

What's really sad is I almost don't trust a big company when they claim "organic". I went on the Dean Foods site (they make Silk soy milk - which I love BTW) and was really pleased to see on their FAQs that they use whole, organic beans but now I have this little seed of doubt about everything I don't grow myself :shrug: Wonder how soybeans would do in the desert :lol:

JulieJ08 09-16-2008 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeffryn (Post 2364694)
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this.

in 2006, 89% (up almost 1000% since 1997 where only 8% were) of the soybeans grown in the US were genetically modified to be "roundup ready" or resistant to conventional herbicides and pesticides. That sounds bad, but it allows for no-till farming which greatly reduces soil erosion.

That being said, we buy organic.

I meant pretty much just what you said. I was trying to clarify because it sounded like the OP thought the GM part had to do with the organisms used to ferment soy, or that fermenting killed something and somehow got rid of any genetic modification.

yoyonomoreinvegas 09-16-2008 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulieJ08 (Post 2364746)
I meant pretty much just what you said. I was trying to clarify because it sounded like the OP thought the GM part had to do with the organisms used to ferment soy, or that fermenting killed something and somehow got rid of any genetic modification.

Actually, I was refering to the foreign genes that are inserted to genetically alter the bean. ;) Guess my science fiction "nanobot" ideas got tangled with my science fact foreign genes and I didn't word that quite right. (although I haven't found yet exactly where this foreign gene is supposed to come from :scary music: )

zeffryn 09-16-2008 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoyodieterinvegas (Post 2364762)
Actually, I was refering to the foreign genes that are inserted to genetically alter the bean. ;) Guess my science fiction "nanobot" ideas got tangled with my science fact foreign genes and I didn't word that quite right. (although I haven't found yet exactly where this foreign gene is supposed to come from :scary music: )

aliens. Everything comes from the aliens.

zeffryn 09-16-2008 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoyodieterinvegas (Post 2364740)
As you said in another post "Amen Sister" :D

What's really sad is I almost don't trust a big company when they claim "organic". I went on the Dean Foods site (they make Silk soy milk - which I love BTW) and was really pleased to see on their FAQs that they use whole, organic beans but now I have this little seed of doubt about everything I don't grow myself :shrug: Wonder how soybeans would do in the desert :lol:

Thankfully the FDA regulates what can and cannot be referred to as organic. It cannot hold the certified organic stamp unless it has been inspected.

I think most places are rather trustworthy. Most of the organic things in our local supermarket are from small companies focusing on organic and healthful products.

If you can, try to find organic products that are produced as close to home as possible. We've visited several organic farms and spoken to the farmers....they all have a ton of pride in what they do.

JulieJ08 09-16-2008 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yoyodieterinvegas (Post 2364762)
Actually, I was refering to the foreign genes that are inserted to genetically alter the bean. ;) Guess my science fiction "nanobot" ideas got tangled with my science fact foreign genes and I didn't word that quite right. (although I haven't found yet exactly where this foreign gene is supposed to come from :scary music: )

OK, but I don't think fermenting changes that at all or kills anything.

yoyonomoreinvegas 09-16-2008 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulieJ08 (Post 2364788)
OK, but I don't think fermenting changes that at all or kills anything.

Hmm, then I wonder what the "fermented is OK" thing is all about?

mandalinn82 09-16-2008 07:01 PM

I personally don't trust a factory organic farming system any more than a trust a factory conventional farming system. In both cases, you have large companies who are making large, negative environmental impacts with little regard for the animals, soil quality, water quality, etc of the land they grow on. The larger factory organic farms tend to do just as little as possible to "pass" the organic certifications, which is far from the original intent of the organic movement...anyone interested in reading more on this should definitely check out The Omnivores Dilemma and In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan. They made fascinating reading for sure.

I'm going to be in the minority here, I'm guessing, in saying that I don't personally believe that GMO vs. Non-GMO makes too terribly much difference, based on the research I've read. But I do support labeling laws that enable everyone to make that decision personally, which we don't have in place today.

As for soy, in natural, basic forms I think it probably doesn't cause any problems, but the chemical/processed/factory-type chemicals made from it and put into every processed food known to man might not be so great (whether that soy lechitan or soy protein isolate is made from GMO or Non-GMO soy is, IMO, fairly insignificant, though again, I support labeling so everyone can make that decision individually). Whether that is because processed SOY is so dangerous, or because high amounts of processed soy tend to reflect a very high level of processed food in the diet, I don't think we know yet.

yoyonomoreinvegas 09-16-2008 07:10 PM

You know, I'm more and more inclined to believe that those hippy chicks in the 70's had the right idea with their communes and growing all their own food. I swear, my dream retirement has changed from having a nice house with a pool, to a little house (that I can power with solar batteries) with lots of land where I can grow my own fruit and veggies (after I have the well water tested of course).

I have a book called "Making the Best of Basics" that I've had for almost 30 years that tells you the best crops to rotate after each other, the best way to lay out your garden depending on the slope of your land and which direction it faces, how to dry fruit and meat using a solar reflector; as I recall, it even has a recipe for making cheese from powdered milk. I'm glad I hung on to it......

zenor77 09-16-2008 07:24 PM

Fermented soy products are easier to digest. That's the only benefit to fermentation that I'm aware of. Well, that and the bacteria that is used to ferment foods are beneficial in of themselves.

I stay away from overly processed soy, in other words, soy dogs, soy lunch meat, or anything that isn't easily identified as soy. Products that are closer to the "bean" I have no problems with. So, I eat soymilk, tofu, tempeh, miso, and natto (yes, I'm weird, but I love natto.)

I don't think soy itself is bad. I think there are underlying factors that may not be considered in these studies that suggest you stay away from soy. If soy was evil like some people think, then how on earth do you explain the Japanese? The eat plenty of soy and I've never heard of them having a breakout of "man boobs" or any of the other things attributed to soy consumption.

For example, one of the studies that suggested that soy caused Alzheimer's was done in Hawaii. But when they tested Hawaiian tofu , it turns out that Hawaiian tofu was higher in aluminum, then tofu from the "mainland." Hmmm... I don't think you can blame that on soy.

Then there is the GMO thing. I buy organic soy products because I don't think enough studies have been done on the effects of GMOs. That and I really don't trust Monzano to have our best interest in mind.

ddc 09-17-2008 11:52 AM

I just read this on another forum and thought I'd cut and paste it here. It's a mostly male forum, so that's why it addresses men, but I thought the last few sentences addressed some of the questions here. I have no idea who this guy is and if any of this is accurate:

This is from one of Dr. Al Sears' recent newsletters:


QUOTE:
It’s in thousands of different products… everything from cookies to mayonnaise. You probably ate some today without even realizing it.

But that’s a problem: Too much and you may wind up in a male fertility clinic. It robs your manhood and no one’s bothering to tell you.

I'm talking about soy.

The USDA says it’s healthier than protein from meat. Food makers love it because it’s cheap and easy to process—so much so that the soy industry now provides 71% of the edible fats and oils in our nation’s food supply.1 The FDA says it’s perfectly safe for you to eat.

But the latest science says otherwise.

Researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health discovered that men who regularly ate even small amounts of soy-based foods had 41 million fewer sperm per milliliter than men who didn’t.2

Ironically, the 99 men who took part in the study were already patients at a male fertility clinic who couldn’t get their partners pregnant. Scientists tracked their eating habits for six years, keeping on the lookout for 15 soy-based foods.

It turns out eating as little as four ounces of tofu or drinking a single cup of soy milk every other day caused men’s sperm counts to plummet.

This isn’t news to me, and it won’t be to my regular readers. Soy is packed with phytoestrogens, plant-based compounds that your body treats just like the female hormone. These belong to a class of “estrogen mimics” that can make men grow “breasts”— fatty deposits that build on top of your pecs—kill your sex drive, even put you at greater risk for prostate cancer.

Now we have proof soy can strike at the very heart of your manhood.

This was the largest study ever to look at human soy consumption and semen quality. Until now, most of the data we had came from animal studies. So it lays to rest the question of whether or not the phytoestrogens in soy can affect male reproductive health in humans.

It also proved for the first time that even traditional soy products pose a threat. Tofu, natto, and tempeh, all part of the traditional Asian diet, will have the same negative effect as processed soy-derived products like soybean oil.

So if you want to protect yourself against this assault on your virility, here are few recommendations:

Watch your soy intake. Remember, even a little soy goes a long way when it comes to lowering your sperm count. As little as 115 grams, or about four ounces of tofu, amounts to a single serving, depending on your body weight. That’s twice the amount that made men virtually sterile in the study.

Check the label. Soy-based ingredients are hidden in plain sight in a wide variety of foods, from baked goods to salad dressings. Here are the names of the food industry’s favorite soy–based products you should avoid:

Soy Flour
Soy Isolate
Soy Isoflavones
Soy Protein
Soybean Oil
Textured Vegetable Protein (TVP)
Vegetable Fat
Vegetable Oil
Xanthan Gum
Zein
Eat food fit for a man. People eat a lot of soy with the best of intentions—they think they’re making a healthy choice by going for an alternative to animal protein. They also want to stay lean and fit, both good ideas.

But the truth is you don’t need to avoid meat to stay healthy—or manly. In fact, meat from organic, grass-fed sources will help you to shed fat, build lean muscle, and boost overall testosterone and growth hormone levels.

One final point for my skeptical readers: you may be wondering how people in Asian societies where soy’s a dietary staple ever manage to have children if it’s so harmful to male fertility. The answer’s simple. They don’t eat nearly as much soy as you’d think.

Even the soy industry’s own research shows that in places like China, Indonesia, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan, people eat only 9.3 to 36 grams per day. That’s way below the 115 grams of tofu the men in the study were eating.
END QUOTE.


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