Alleged "Hoodia" pills and products - the latest scam!
This was initially going to be a reply in the "appetite supressants" thread but after doing a bit of research, felt the subject of hoodia deserved its own thread - since apparently the snake oil salesmen are now jumping on the plant as the answer to their loss of ephedra as a 'miracle diet ingredient'.
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And another thing to keep in mind is that the plant has still not been proven to cause weight loss. I found this article in the Botswana Daily Sun website: Quote:
Another article - this one from the ABC News, dated 7 Aug 2003: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/L...rug030807.html Quote:
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Okay: bottom line as I see it:
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Mrs. Jim, thanks for posting this as I had never even heard of "hoodia" and I appreciate the info and opinions.
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Hoodia!...seeds??
Hi All,
I have been watching all the hoodia info,I think Hoodia Gordonii Works! But,we must be sure we use 100% hoodia gordonii.... I think the only way to be sure of this is to grow our own hoodia gordonii from seeds.....which takes a long time to harvest.... I did find some gordonii seeds and have planted them..... Now I wait...... Richard :^: |
Hoodia may very well be an appetite suppressant, and could benefit the people that have uncontrollable problems with their appetites.
Unfortunately, it comes with the lack of testing to make sure that it doesn't have long term side effects or other safety issues. I would never ingest something that wasn't properly tested, any more than I would intentionally ingest a poison. My personal health goals are long term, and not just to fit into a size smaller jeans by next month, and mystery products don't fit in with that. Besides, what is supposed to be so great about hoodia? It is possibly an appetite suppressant? Big hoowah, we already have those, that are well tested and any side effects are already known. See your physician for a prescription and ongoing monitoring, which you can't get by a mail order mystery product. Of course a little willpower goes a long way, and appetite suppressants do nothing to address emotional eating, health problems, etc. Plus, taking any appetite suppressant does not cause weight loss by itself, so there is nothing magical about it. It helps you control your appetite, which is something completely different. There are other ways to accomplish the same thing. We took a poll a few months ago with the question: If a miracle drug were discovered that would make you lose weight effortlessly but the long term effects were unknown, would you take it anyway? Most people said no, that it wasn't worth the risk for a little bit of weight loss, that could be accomplished just as well without it. Hoodia fits this description perfectly. My advice to anyone considering this item is to watch and wait. When your doctors recommend it, then go for it :) |
Probably a bit late for most folks...but tonight's 60 Minutes will include a report by Leslie Stahl about hoodia. Starts in just a few minutes here on the West Coast. ;)
Fortunately, CBS has a page for the story on their news site. Quote:
Gotta run - almost time for 60 Minutes! :cool: |
I miss everything, lol. I'm going to set up 1-800-SUZANNE so people can call me anytime something interesting is coming on.
I do hope this will prove to be helpful to people that may have appetite problems. I still think that it needs to undergo extensive testing, though, to make sure there are no long term health issues involved, interactions with medications or other supplements, etc. We've been down that road too many times before. Thanks for the info :) |
Actually I don't watch 60 Minutes all that often - I just happened to be watching Channel 5 around 6:45 pm (15 minutes before) and a clip popped up. Well of course since it's about HOODIA, I had to watch!
It was very interesting - even Jim watched it. The Bushman who took Lesley Stahl into the desert found a hoodia plant and she sampled a small piece of it - the next day she said she had no cravings and basically forgot about food even at regular mealtimes. One VERY interesting point made - I'll edit the post above, since the article on the 60 Minutes website was expanded - is that the active ingredient in Hoodia CANNOT be made into a pill: Quote:
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I had not heard of the weight loss potential of Hoodia before seeing these articles. Thanks for sending them. Very interesting stuff, but I doubt it will be a reasonable affordable solution in our life-times especially if Pfizer gave up on it. I can also see lots of potential for exploitation. Hoodia is a genus of about 20 species. Apparently only Hoodia gordonii has the appetite suppressing characteristics. So all Hoodias are not created equal. So you can buy all the Hoodia you want, and may not get the right one.
Several species of Hoodia are grown in the US as ornamental succulents - my Mom had one or two, but probably not gordonii. They are slow growing, interesting looking, but cannot be grown everywhere. They are in the same plant family as milkweed, vinca, and oleandar. Some members of this family are poisonous. If you want to see what the hoodia plant looks like, go here: http://www.cacti.co.il/hoodia.htm Jan, who thinks 'eat less, exercise more' will be around for a long time to come. |
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http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2...age656470x.jpg I have no doubt that the products that have come out that claim to contain hoodia (TrimSpa, Lipodrene, various teas, etc) might be using the other varieties of hoodia, which would be MUCH easier to obtain than the 'real thing' - if you watched the 60 Minutes segment, you'll see that the wild plant isn't exactly easy to find - they had to use an experienced San tracker to find a small plant. The weight-loss supplement industry isn't exactly known for being honest and above board, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were using another variety of hoodia (which apparently do not contain the active key ingredient) in their products. In fact, if you read my initial post in this thread, you'll find that the genesis of this very thread was due to some members here buying products which claim to contain hoodia. If you google 'hoodia' you'll get a TON of websites that are selling diet pills and other products. As is typical for these types of companies, they have been taking a grain of truth and using it to sell overpriced, overhyped crapola. I wanted to gather the FACTS, the REAL facts, about this plant here in Buyer Beware, so folks wouldn't get taken in by some scammy diet pill company. According to the 60 Minutes segment, Pfizer dropped out when it was acertained that there was no feasible way of making a pill using the active ingredient. Doesn't mean the plant doesn't have possibilities - IMO Pfizer felt that if a pill or medication that would be easy to manufacture and ship in mass quantities wasn't going to happen, then it wouldn't be worth their while to pursue it further. Remember - bottom line, Pfizer has to answer to their shareholders and return a profit. In addition, Phytopharm is the only company who can actually manufacture and market the Hoodia plant, not only as stated in the first article on this forum, but also from the FAQ on their website: Quote:
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The Acomplia research sounds very good too, even better than Hoodia.
As to the head hunger problem, which I agree is a far greater threat leading to gaining weight than physical hunger, you can deal with that by old fashion personal psychological investigation. There are several really good books on the subject, the best I have read being 'The Solution' by Laurel Mellin. And of course there is always therapy from a competent counselor. But good luck finding one. In the Acomplia articles they say (going from yesteday's memory here) it can reduce not only food cravings, but also the inexorable draw of other addictions/compulsions. No small wonder because the underlying causes of almost all compulsive behaviors are pretty similar. Compulsive overeating, (drinking, comp. shopping, gambling, etc) is rooted not in the substance or activity abused, but rather in a pattern of behavior based on our own personal histories and erroneous beliefs about ourselves and life in general. (This is very hard to sum up in a couple sentences.) Body problems (fat) need body solutions - eat less, exercise more. Head (emotional) hunger needs head (emotional) solutions. Or you can wait for the right pill to come along, and take it the rest of your life. Jan |
I think that 'head hunger' can be dealt with through personal investigation, like you suggested, but it may not always be possible for some people. The addiction to food can be just as serious as an addiction to drugs, in that it can be that difficult to overcome. Sometimes it's a minor problem and you can 'set yourself straight' and deal with it. A lot of the time, it's gone past that point. Getting started is the hardest part, and some people do need assistance with it. For some people, it is an emotional experience. For others, it's a true physical appetite problem. Under the right circumstances, medication is the best option for some people, and it isn't a lifetime committment, but just a 'push' to get people started.
Having said that, I don't think anyone should self-medicate themselves with OTC diet pills, but they should be under the care of their physician, so they can be monitored and counseled during the process. When someone buys a box of Trimspa at Walgreens, the cashier isn't going to ask about their medical history, how often they are taking it, what did they eat yesterday, and btw, let's check your blood pressure and heart rate. Every person is unique, and the approach to safe weight loss is going to be a little different for everyone. |
Hi Suzanne and all, I didnt mean to imply that personal investigation was easy because its certainly not. Perhaps for some it might be, but it took me several years of persistence to gain a fairly good understanding of it within me. With a good therapist it might take less time. The more you learn and become free, the more you want to learn. And the information is certainly better now than when I started blindly looking around in the late 80's having no clue where to look.
I suggested personal investigation for head hunger only because on most weight loss sites, medically oriented or informal, going beneath the surface of head/emotional hunger and trying to solve it is rarely, if ever, mentioned. About the only suggestions mentioned for a weight problem are to lose your weight via a diet, then hang on for dear life so you dont gain it back. Of course it is not up the informal wl support sites to suggest directions for recovery. Yet the majority of people would be able to gain some benefit from looking around in their own personal puzzles as to the root causes of head hunger -- if that is what they want to do. No one has to do it, there is no shame in choosing not to, especially if the idea greatly frightens you. Or if you think its simply nuts. (Mild fear of the unknown is normal.) As to daily medication, I was thinking only of Acomplia for head hunger, not wl or anti-depressant medications. For those follow your doctors recommendations. And Acomplia isnt available yet. Is 'looking beneath' a cure-all for everyone? Of course not. Can there be benefit for most people, absolutely. And you are right, its not for everyone, especially if they are working without benefit of a therapist. But if one is relatively stable, and is still suffering from great amounts of head hunger after years, and they are willing, what is the downside of beginning to look? If there is an impediment to one's looking, they will find it soon enough. All it takes is picking up a competent book from your public library such as Mellin's 'The Solution', or her newer book, 'The Pathway', doing some reading and thinking, then deciding if there is benefit in it for you. Or not. I do think however its worth suggesting to those who may not even know its an option for solving their head hunger. There are indeed good non medication answers out there if you look. I have known quite a number of people who investigated on their own, or with professional help, and made great strides in ridding themselves of most head hunger (no longer thinking about food 24/7, eliminating or drastically reducing binge behavior, etc). But like everything else surrounding weight loss, there are no absolute final cures, just greater understanding coupled with much lessened head hunger. Doing it was absolutely worth every minute spent! Jan |
Hi folks, I was surfing around and saw your site with this whole discussion of hoodia. As the linguist in the 60 Minutes section some of you saw, I thought I might say hello and add a few comments. I am not a food scientist, I am a linguist, so anything I say is really from what I have learned from San elders. Several of the hoodias have medicinal property, though it is true that P57 was found in gordonii. I have not understood whether the others do or do not have P57 compound in them. The San, obviously, do not use hoodia for appetite suppression. They use it for lots of things in different applications: thrist suppression (eating it); giving yourself energy; against asthma, conjunctivitus, stomach problems, skin problems, and more. I have tried hoodia, it is interesting, and i think it does suppress appetite. Lesley Stahl's really did try it and was being honest (unusual in media these days!). However, to make it work like that you need a piece about 2 to 3 inches long, ideally fresh and full of recent rain water. There are a number of illegal products on the market here in South Africa claiming to have hoodia in them. From what we understand, they either have none or very small amounts, in which case it would have no effect on your appetite. The idea is interesting, the delivery is going to be the challenge. And appetite suppression is, as you know well, only one aspect of weight control. Good luck to everyone on here.
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Thank you so much for the information, and taking the time to share your insight!
I'm sure we will have a serious problem with fake hoodia on the market, and I do hope the government can step in and put a stop to it soon. Perhaps it will be a viable and safe product which we can get in the future, but it sounds like that will be quite a few years away. |
Hello, in 3F -
Recently I came back from a trip to find bottles of something called Desert Burn, claiming to contain 750 mg of 100% pure Hoodia Gordonii. My husband saw the CBS show, did research, and ordered it on the internet from (*edit*) DietingLady |
I've removed the link from your post. No, we don't recommend that supplier, or any other. I would suggest reading the post above from Nigel Crawhill http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/show...0&postcount=18 and you'll see that the hoodia you buy online is not the real thing. I don't know what you purchased, but it's impossible to know what is in it, if it is safe, contaminated, contains dangerous materials, etc.
For anyone that is interested in genuine hoodia, do not buy it on the internet! WAIT until a valid source is established. We'll do our best to be the first to tell you all about it. I wouldn't expect this to happen for several years. Isn't it even illegal to take Hoodia out of Africa? I read a news release about that several months ago, I'll go try to find it. Therefore, the stuff you buy online is not hoodia. It's been established that these pills contain very little, if any at all, and who knows what the rest of it is. Taking whatever it is would be about the same as taking candy from strangers on the street - we warned our kids not to do that, so why would we put ourselves in the same position? |
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For some reason, I think a lot of people didn't catch in the 60 Minutes broadcast a couple of pieces of VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION. They just heard that an active ingredient in hoodia supresses appetite and then just went on the Internet and bought some pills or whatever... Reiterating those important points again... 1) The ONLY authentic source of hoodia is from Phytopharm, who holds the exclusive license to market/produce hoodia. 2) At this juncture, it appears that THE ONLY WAY to get the active ingredient to 'work' is to eat a piece of FRESH hoodia - as Nigel said "about 2 or 3 inches long, ideally fresh and full of rain water". Keep in mind that Pfizer pulled their funding because the active ingredient COULD NOT BE MADE INTO A PILL. I would assume that those dried 'hoodia teas' and etc are bogus too. 3) There is JUST NOT enough hoodia currently being produced to be able to supply all those internet stores who are purportedly selling the stuff - reiterating the 60 Minutes broadcast: Quote:
My advice - DON'T spend your hard-earned money on ANY product claiming to contain hoodia UNTIL you see products being marketed by Phytopharm, which is not expected to be until AT LEAST 2008 - and unless there's some groundbreaking scientific strides made, don't expect it to be in pill form - more than likely it will be sold as a fresh 'vegetable' or made into shakes or bars. |
I must say, I am surprised that you removed my post from your site! Seeing that I am the only grower and person speaking on this matter straight from South Africa; i.e. first hand knowledge!
Here we have pharmaceutical companies trying to monopolize the market with draconian tactics, like the people you mentioned stating that Hoodia does not work in raw form only extracted p57. Why all the fuss if it doesn’t work? I have news for you; you have all fallen prey to a hideous scam. Firstly most the Hoodia sold is blended or wrongly identified; thus no strength in their dosages. Secondly - obviously the pharmaceutical companies will push their extract as the only working one, since they have a patent on the working extract; can make money from all who sell it and would like as little competition possible to damage their market and monopoly. I thought this forum was a truth seeking open minded one? I am beginning to wonder if this forum is not a part to this draconian campaign. In our country they tried to stop us from growing this product, saying that Hoodia gordonii is patented. This is not so and one cannot patent a plant; thus all the chaos and market manipulation at present to avoid a pure product that could stop their potential drug. Imagine if I patented a tomato plant and all across the world using tomatoes had to pay me royalties for eating tomatoes, ridiculous right? – Well so is the claim that only one company, body or entity can have the real Hoodia. Why would they push to have Hoodia in snack bars; pure Hoodia not extract if pure Hoodia does not work? The same company who said it doesn’t work in raw form signed a contract to do this snack bar idea with another giant? Incidentally it is interesting that the other giant is potentially part of the obesity problem, chocolates sweets and such! They want the market, that’s why and no one cares to oppose them. This post too will probably end up being deleted; right? The truth hurts and many would not like their bubbles burst. I know many of you have been burned by ‘drugs’ for curbing your appetite and also their hyped up marketing scams. Too further this greedy ‘people’ tried jumping onboard selling what they claimed to be Hoodia gordonii. Thus I can understand your misconceptions and readiness to believe any suitable propaganda structure in your favor to support your ‘aggression’ against falsehood. But know this, just as you were manipulated to buy those drug companies and sellers of the fake Hoodia, so now you are being manipulated to forget about this obesity help called Hoodia gordonii. (*edited to remove hoodia offer*) My previous post stated my wife using this; I would like the mods on this forum to place that info, edited if must - and share it with you. It was a sincere post with no ulterior motives, same as this one - and it was deleted why? I suppose, maybe I too am bias being pushed by large companies whom I suspect to control mush more than we realize, thus if my question whether you are part of this campaign is inappropriate, I sincerely apologize!!! |
African, the mods removed your other post because it appeared as a solicitation, with several references to your company that sells the product. This is strictly against the guidelines of the forum.
I have removed the hoodia offer from your current post, for the same reason. I have also removed references to your company from your profile. Our site is a support forum for weight loss through a healthy diet and exercise program, without the use of controversial products. At the moment, hoodia is VERY controversial. We've been made aware that the vast majority of the hoodia products sold online are not hoodia at all, or that they contain such a small amount that it is useless. Of course every hoodia dealer is going to step forward and say their product is different, it's a sales pitch. Why should your company be any different? We agree that there is potential for this product, but the problem seems to be getting it in an effective form that can be distributed among millions of people. According to the 60 Minutes news broadcast, the pills that are being sold are not the real thing, and that research has shown that hoodia cannot be made into pill form and still be effective. THIS is the information we rely on, and not sales pitches which are always going to be biased. Why would someone try to sell a product, and say at the same time that their product doesn't work? We will wait. When Phytopharm, as well as the medical establishments in the US say that this product is the the real thing - an effective and safe way to curb appetite, and not counterfeit products, then we will gladly promote it. In the meantime, we feel that it is our duty to help protect our members against potentially fraudulent, potentially dangerous mystery products, and promote weight loss the old fashioned way - through healthy diet and exercise. Even WITH a valid source of hoodia, diet and exercise are still required for weight loss. Hoodia - even the real thing - doesn't cause weight loss. It's just an appetite suppressant for people that have appetite problems. We already have a solution for that, and our doctors can prescribe safe medications and provide constant medical supervision while taking them. You can't get that online. From 60 minutes: The future of hoodia is not yet a sure thing. The project hit a major snag last year. Pharmaceutical giant Pfizer, which had teamed up with Phytopharm, and funded much of the research, dropped out when making a pill out of the active ingredient seemed beyond reach. So if a company such as Pfizer cannot put hoodia in a pill and it be effective, why can all of these no-name small companies that are popping up online daily? |
For anyone that is interested, here is the full CBS article
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...-SearchStories Quote:
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No name companies ... hmmm
Nestle currently working on their entry into the diet market would be very suprized to hear them labeled as a no name company, I stressed in my response above that it is not a wonder cure - but i see that once again only the negative aspects suitable for your convenience were pulled out and the chance I gave the public or the mods to prove me wrong was edited. Well I suppose we all have a right to our oppinion, as do the thousands of people who are saying that Hoodia does work! See the story below, also recent discoveries have shown that it is not only the so called "P57" that is the active ingredient but rather a synergistic combination of other alkaloids, thus no wonder they could not make it into a pill! Phytopharm near deal on slimming aid from cactus December 9, 2003 Reuters Mark Potter and Lara Smith LONDON - British drugs-from-plants firm Phytopharm Plc was cited as saying on Tuesday it was in talks with four major food companies about making an appetite-suppressing snack from its drug programme based on a rare South African cactus. Chief Executive Richard Dixey was quoted as telling Reuters, "We anticipate having indicative bids by the end of January." The story says that Phytopharm's shares plunged last July when Pfizer Inc, the world's biggest drugmaker, dropped plans to make a medicine to treat obesity from Phytopharm's P57 programme, which is derived from the rare Hoodia cactus found in the Kalahari. The Hoodia has been used by Bushmen for thousands of years to stave off hunger during hunting trips. The San people, or Bushmen, are due to get a share of profits if a product based on the Hoodia makes it to market. Phytopharm's Dixey said the difficulties of manufacturing a plant-extract to meet pharmaceutical standards meant P57 had a better future in the $3 billion-a-year meal replacement market. |
I must say, I am constantly amazed at how some people attempt to take a little bit of truth and twist it around to suit their own purposes.
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And not even going into the whys and wherefores of whether or not Hoodia is/will be effective towards appetite suppression - here's the BIG question IMO - How does the average prospective buyer KNOW that there is actually hoodia in these pills? And even if it IS hoodia...how do you KNOW it's actually Hoodia gordonii which is the ONLY species of hoodia that has been proven to be an appetite supressant? There are several hoodia species - some are even grown as houseplants, from what I've gathered. Note the initial BBC transcript on page one of this thread...where they studied pills claiming to contain Hoodia gordonii and NONE or very little was found. Quote:
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If any of our members wish to try the "hoodia" products that are currently on the market, instead of waiting until certified authentic, safe and effective products ARE available, then they can go to Google and find any number of so-called hoodia products for sale online. However, we cannot, in good conscience, allow these products to be promoted here. |
I see another real problem here, especially if people managed to get their hands on REAL hoodia:
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Everyone with a little or a lot of weight to lose has said "wouldn't it be great to be anorexic...for a little while!" But it's NOT great. It's not a healthy way to lose weight. Not eating leads to muscle loss, fluid loss, eloctrolyte loss, BRAIN FUNCTION LOSS and if continued, DEATH. And it doesn't take that long. If somehow, people are actually obtaining real hoodia (which I very much doubt), unmonitored use is a really bad idea, no matter how much weight they have to lose. Mel |
Thanks for the info. However, it does disturb me a bit that someone could get a patent on something that grows in the ground. I guess what they've really patented is a chemical found in the plant, but I always prefer to take medicines in natural form if I can because the drug companies concentrate the essential elements to a degree the body was never intended to tolerate, producing all sorts of side effects.
Even natural products can be abused or contraindicated, of course, so self-education is important, but whenever certified Hoodia Gordonii itself is available -- either in powdered or fresh form, whichever works, that's what I'll be inclined to try, not Phytopharm's articificial product. I didn't see the 60 minutes show and now have to decide whether to keep taking the Hoodia powder my husband bought. I'm used to taking herbal supplements and monitoring my body's reaction and I've noted nothing adverse so far. I'm wondering about the problem, though, of knowing what's really in the pills -- or in any herbal supplements, for that matter. I checked and found that all of my herbal supplements have the same statement that the Hoodia powder bottle does: "This statement has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease." However, the statement applies to claims about what the product's results, not to whether the bottle contains what it says it does. Aren't there laws against mislabeling which apply here? This is a U.S. manufacture and I can't imagine he wouldn't get in trouble for selling something that isn't what the container said it is. After examining all my bottles, I see nothing on the label to give me any more confidence that my Echinacea is what it is, than that this Hoodia is genuine. I'd certainly like to continue taking the pills since I got on the scales this morning and have lost 3 pounds with virtually no effort. What a quandry! Dieting Lady |
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I've been watching this whole snake oil scam going on for years now. YEARS! The diet pill snake oil salespeople must have been overwhelmed with JOY when the initial reports on hoodia started coming down the pike, since they had lost ephedra/ma huang as their 'miracle pill'. Trust me...these companies don't stay in business very long - generally they change their names and packaging. Quote:
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Fortunately I don't see this happening with Acomplia (the promising appetite supressant/anti-smoking drug which is due to go to the FDA for approval very soon) since it looks as though it's going to be an actual PRESCRIPTION medication and will undergo testing and close scrutiny for safety and effectiveness. |
To say the least is that your skepticism rules your reasoning, did you even look at the photos of the Hoodia gordonii being cultivated before you claimed it might not be Hoodia gordonii? Hmm MrsJim
And as far as I am concerned most of you with your complexes need some Sceletium to calm down and stop sounding like plain nasty ventors. If you had any botanical experience you would be able to tell that mine is indeed Hoodia gordonii, but I have neither the time nor the patience to try and explain that to you, your skeptic minds would probably twist that to suite your misconceived perceptions too! This is my last post and as far as I am concerned you guys really need experience before cracking people of! How do you like being called a fatty? Not nice –well the feeling is mutual when you are speaking of something like this where you have no knowledge? And is not the one making an honest buck growing and selling. To verify purity of Hoodia gordonii pills, simply request an analysis cert, then you would have to be brave enough to try it once you receive the pills and the batch numbers corresponds with the certificate. Use that when trying other peoples stuff, else who knows what you might be getting? For interests sake below find a list of Hoodia species. Hoodia albisina Hoodia annulata Hoodia bainii Hoodia barklyi Hoodia burkei Hoodia cactiformis Hoodia coleorum Hoodia currori Hoodia delaetiana Hoodia dinteri Hoodia dregei Hoodia duvalli Hoodia felina Hoodia flava Hoodia foetida Hoodia gibbosa Hoodia gordonii Hoodia grandis Hoodia haagnerae Hoodia husabensis Hoodia juttae Hoodia langii Hoodia longispina Hoodia lugardii Hoodia lutea Hoodia macrantha Hoodia marlothii Hoodia meloformis Hoodia montana Hoodia mossamedensis Hoodia officianis Hoodia parviflora Hoodia pedicellata Hoodia perlata Hoodia picta Hoodia pilifera Hoodia pillansii Hoodia pretnar Hoodia rosea Hoodia ruschii Hoodia rustica Hoodia similis Hoodia sociarum Hoodia tirasmontana Hoodia trichneri Hoodia triebneri Hoodia vaga Hoodia whitesloaneana Now which one were you talking about? |
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I don't think we can respond any better than by providing info directly from the PhytoPharm website, regarding availability, safety, and authenticity of hoodia products from other sources:
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You wish to insult us simply because we did not allow you to promote your product here. But just remember, you came here, read our forum rules, and you chose to ignore them. If this is the type of response we are going to receive from this thread, if it just attracts people that want to promote questionable products, then I think it's time to close this thread, and let us get back to losing weight. |
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