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Old 10-30-2014, 04:42 PM   #76  
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My major quibble with JohnP, and it is explained in great lengths in Why We Get Fat is on calories in calories out. Important at some level, but not the way it has been presented to people.
This isn't a quibble with me. I agree that the education people get on food is horrendous. I agree that simple telling people to eat less and move more is not effective.

That doesn't change the fact that calories always matter. Always. Important at some level you say? It's a fundamental issue. It doesn't matter what diet one follows if they are not in a caloric deficit they will not lose weight.

"Why we get fat" completely ignores the role of calories. I would postulate the reason is simple; Taubes is trying to sell books. A moderate and balanced look at obesity doesn't sell books.

On one hand I really like him. I think Taubes has done more than any single individual to help people understand that consuming fat is not bad for you. Unfortunately because of his approach he has also created a legion of barely educated proselytes who bang the drum of low carb dogma which adds more confusion to an already confused group of people trying to make the right dietary choices.

This is exactly why you should read the low carb sanity blog I keep suggesting you read so you see what questioning the low carb dogma actually looks like. (Hint: Mark's Daily Apple isn't it)
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:07 PM   #77  
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Oh I should adjust my current weight, I'm a bit higher but working my way back down. I had a setback a couple years ago due to some injuries and depression.

I recently had a friend visit from a different country recently and one place I showed her was 7-11 (she wanted to go). Showed her big gulps and also all the various quick food items. She was amazed because that kind of thing is unheard of where she lives.
Oh that happens to me every time someone visits me from Europe which is often! One friend ordered a coca cola at a restaurant and they brought her a huge glass. Puzzled, she asked "is this to drink or to bathe in?" American consumerism is frightening.
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:09 PM   #78  
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The low carb sanity blog is excellent. From what I understand is that despite the low fat hype we never actually went low fat but rather increases out consumption of carbs, sugar and protein.
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Old 10-30-2014, 07:47 PM   #79  
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This isn't a quibble with me. I agree that the education people get on food is horrendous. I agree that simple telling people to eat less and move more is not effective.

That doesn't change the fact that calories always matter. Always. Important at some level you say? It's a fundamental issue. It doesn't matter what diet one follows if they are not in a caloric deficit they will not lose weight.
Not that I know anything but my own weight loss journey and success but i completely agree. I personally know people who practice Paleo (and DO NOT cheat) who complain constantly about how they haven't lost weight despite even increasing their activity level.

I ADORE healthy unprocessed whole foods but i could over eat those as much as i do the junk i love, also. Granted the healthy whole foods aren't as much calories per gram as the "junk" but i could still be significantly overweight if i didn't check my calorie count at the end of the day. I may be healthier in the long run over indulging on whole foods but i certainly will be fat.

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Old 10-30-2014, 08:05 PM   #80  
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The Paleo community does research? That is news to me. From what I have seen they just take existing research that fits their world view while ignoring the research that doesn't.

In any case there is a a decent amount of research showing that too much exercise increases the risk of atrial fibrillation which is probably what killed a friend of ours who at 35 dropped dead on his driveway from a massive heart attack. He was a major endurance athlete and appeared to be in perfect health. Obviously I am speculating because all we know for sure is he was an amateur ironman competitor and he died in his driveway of a massive heart attack.

This year there was a study published which showed people who do no exercise have the highest incident of cardiovascular disease but people who do too much cardio have double the risk of those who do so moderately with the number of 25 miles a week being the tipping point. Correlation only, obviously.

I average about 25 miles a week. And I am currently out of service because a toe decided to go south.

I think other bits fail before too much exercise becomes terminal, genetic curiousities aside.

Just keep going medical. Your joint and leg/foot muscles will (probably) give up before your heart does. And then you will be forced to slow down.

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Old 10-30-2014, 09:33 PM   #81  
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JohnP the Paleo community is centered on science and research. I gave you links to Ivor Cummings. He has an hour and half YouTube video on cholesterol called the cholesterol conundrum. Probably more science than you might be able to handle. Graphs, papers, dissecting papers. PaleoFX has dozens of scientific talks each year as does the Ancestral Health Symposium founded by scientists.

BTW when you are all congratulating yourselves on fat not going down you're dead wrong. Butter, lard, tallow, coconut oil, red meat all PLUMMETED. We eat around 75% less red meat than pre 1900 and a lot less than pre 1950s. Butter plummeted, although it is growing. But dwarfed by margarine. Lard virtually has disappeared.

Movie popcorn used to be cooked in coconut oil, McDonald's fries in beef tallow. But then they became victims to the Jihad on saturated fats. Vegetable oils have skyrocketed. They give you inflammation and oxidation. Some of the worse substances on the planet. The healthy fats have virtually disappeared from American diets. Kids fed skim and low fat dairy not the heart protective, brain developing, BMI reducing whole dairy. Also victims of the saturated fat Jihad. Eggs demonized the last 50 years also although that, thankfully, is changing.

Might want to read books like Big Fat Surprise, Death by Food Pyramid, or Eat the Yolks to learn about food history of the last 100 years
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:54 PM   #82  
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Larry I'm talking about fat intake in general. Look up the stats yourself if you don't believe me.

The fact is that total calories consumed has increased. You've said yourself that calories matter so why is this even an issue? No one is saying that increased calories is the only thing that has changed. No one is saying that calories are the only thing that matter. You're arguing with yourself again.

Regarding Paleo "science" I've read enough to know that they over reach in a major way. I have no idea why but I suspect it is because in many cases their livelyhood is entwined. If you would read the blog I have linked you will see how easy it is for someone with a science background to poke major holes into the Paleo "science".

Is Paleo a good diet to follow? Sure! I have reccomended it more than any other dietary plan for someone who wants to lose weight and has no interest in counting calories. Is it the ideal diet for health? I have no idea but the actual data we do have suggests that humans can thrive on a variety of diets so long as calories are controlled and the diet is comprised of primarily whole foods. Add in a bit of regular activity and voila you've got a human that will live a long healthy life.

Here is what I find amusing.

Paleo people believe they have the ideal diet

Vegans believe they have the ideal diet

Fruitopians believe they have the ideal diet

CRON (ies) believe they have the ideal diet (if you haven't heard of this one you really need to check it out)

The only thing the above diet plans have in common is that they all believe they are the ideal diet for a human and they have a book or two they can sell you. I'm sure there are more but those are the one's I can think of off the top of my head.
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Old 10-31-2014, 03:23 AM   #83  
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The Paleo community does research? That is news to me. From what I have seen they just take existing research that fits their world view while ignoring the research that doesn't.

In any case there is a a decent amount of research showing that too much exercise increases the risk of atrial fibrillation which is probably what killed a friend of ours who at 35 dropped dead on his driveway from a massive heart attack. He was a major endurance athlete and appeared to be in perfect health. Obviously I am speculating because all we know for sure is he was an amateur ironman competitor and he died in his driveway of a massive heart attack.

This year there was a study published which showed people who do no exercise have the highest incident of cardiovascular disease but people who do too much cardio have double the risk of those who do so moderately with the number of 25 miles a week being the tipping point. Correlation only, obviously.
I average about 25 miles a week. And I am currently out of service because a toe decided to go south.

I think other bits fail before too much exercise becomes terminal, genetic curiousities aside.

Just keep going medical. Your joint and leg/foot muscles will (probably) give up before your heart does. And then you will be forced to slow down.
John, thanks for the research. I do it for the love of the sport, not for anything else and my training plan for a 100k event I'm participating in next year April calls for a high mileage (as is normal for such events).

Ian, you're probably right! We'll probably need to give up extensive running in time to come because of the wear and tear on our joints etc. Hope your toe gets better! "Going south" sounds pretty bad.
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Old 10-31-2014, 06:34 AM   #84  
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The change in fat composition is huge. Neglecting that is like saying, doesn't matter that people eat cardboard now not spinach. Vegetable oils harm, natural saturated fats heal.

PUFA consumption way up, sat fats way down and that is huge.

I am not Paleo BTW. Have lots of dairy and some beans. They are rubrics. I think of what I am doing as whole foods, no grains, high natural fats, nutrient dense, anti-inflammatory, gut health promoting eating. Can even approximate that as vegetarian although might need supplements.
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Old 10-31-2014, 08:20 AM   #85  
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So tell us how Olive oil harms...

And in terms of the various heavily processed vegetable oils, they are mostly coupled with *gasp* heavily processed products. I won't eat any animal fats but I have to keep fats down anyway due to my own health and animal fats exacerbated my issues (I have a higher tolerance for things like avocado, olive oil, nuts, etc than I did for when I ate meat/cheese - not even added oils, just eating a higher fat meal sent me into pain). But I also try to avoid heavily processed foods. I do think heavily processed foods contribute to weight gain due to the heavy concentration of calories.

And there are a few theories why people over consume calorie dense foods but I think it is multifactorial. Some people are trying to maintain that high you get, other research points to your brain hardwiring for the trinity of salt,fat,sugar and then there is also the fact that sometimes you do things out of habit (Brain over Binge has been one of my favorite books this year - it has helped me and one of many reasons I'd say I'm the lowest weight I've been in 2 years).

Anyway, my point is that we know that heavily processed foods aren't the healthiest for us, there are reasons that is and they are coupled with the vegetable oils I believe you are talking about. How do you separate out health of vegetable oil consumption with those vegetable oils that no one really uses in home cooking? Of course part if the problem (and I don't know if other countries have this) is that no one cooks anymore. I'm amazed at people my age (again nearly 40) who don't cook. They buy. People younger than me, the issue is pretty rampant.

The weight issues and the health issues are multifactorial and you can't pinpoint one specific thing and trying to do so is naive.
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Old 10-31-2014, 08:57 AM   #86  
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Olive oil is not bad for you! And that's proven by the low rates of heart disease in the Mediterranean. Are we just making up stuff now?
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Old 10-31-2014, 11:11 AM   #87  
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Nellie,

Why don't you actually argue what I am saying if you want to argue? I am focusing on PUFAs. Polyunsaturated fatty acids. The man-made, rancid, oxidized, less than 100 years old, never existed before that, which are the primary oils most Americans consume. I pointed out in an earlier post I was saying olive oil, macadamia oil, and avocado oil are OK. But not olive oil for most cooking. Flax seed oil also ok for salads.

Olive oil is Ok if high quality domestic. I use it on salads from time to time. I do not cook with it except sauteing. Any higher than that and it will oxidize. Saturated fats are your best bet. Many people mishandle olive oil resulting in oxidation even without cooking or use poor quality. Your best bets are lard, tallow, grass fed butter, coconut oil, fats in whole foods. Olive oil ok for salads. We use organic flax seed oil shipped in a dark bottle and kept in our fridge.

The Mediterranean diet is so misunderstood. I suggest you read the latest. There is an entire chapter in Big Fat Surprise. High quantities of saturated fat in the diets. This got complete underplay. And the lowest rates of heart disease in Europe? France (a Mediterranean country BTW, there is no one Mediterranean diet) and Switzerland (not Mediterranean). Oh yeah the two European countries with the highest rates of saturated fat consumption.

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Old 10-31-2014, 11:24 AM   #88  
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I am saying that if you just lump vegetable oils together, you really aren't talking about vegetable oils but specific oils.
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Old 10-31-2014, 12:29 PM   #89  
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The change in fat composition is huge. Neglecting that is like saying, doesn't matter that people eat cardboard now not spinach.
Larry the point has gone sailing over your head again or you're just trying to obfuscate the point I'm making. If you want to have a discussion lets drop the faulty analogies and try to stick with facts.

No one is arguing that the type of fat is irrelevant. The type of carb matters too. Even the type of protein matters. The next time you see me saying all calories are the same will be the first time.

The point is we never went low fat as a nation and total caloric consumption increased. These are facts and they are not up for debate. The role of calories is massively relevant and trumps everything else. Why calories have increased is part of the discussion as is the composition of those calories but to overlook the fact that calories has increased and the role calories play is intellectual dishonesty. It's impossible to have a discussion if we can't agree on basic physiological principles.
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Old 10-31-2014, 03:34 PM   #90  
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The Mediterranean diet is so misunderstood. I suggest you read the latest. There is an entire chapter in Big Fat Surprise. High quantities of saturated fat in the diets. This got complete underplay. And the lowest rates of heart disease in Europe? France (a Mediterranean country BTW, there is no one Mediterranean diet) and Switzerland (not Mediterranean). Oh yeah the two European countries with the highest rates of saturated fat consumption.
It is misunderstood... by you. Have no need to read the latest, been living it all my life. And the mediterranean diet as I know it refers particularly to the Kretan diet, from where my entire family hails, and who have lived several generations as agricultural farmers who's primary business is to make organic olive oil. The diet is based primarily in very dark leafy greens such as dandelion, seasonal vegetables, lots of legumes, fish, cheese, whole grains-mostly bulgur, small amounts of meat and lots lots lots of olive oil.

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