3 Fat Chicks on a Diet Weight Loss Community

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-   -   A Grand Unified Theory of nutrition and weight? Perhaps. And a farewell of sorts (http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/carb-counters/294787-grand-unified-theory-nutrition-weight-perhaps-farewell-sorts.html)

diamondgeog 04-14-2014 02:15 PM

A Grand Unified Theory of nutrition and weight? Perhaps. And a farewell of sorts
I am going to take a break from 3FC. I was toying with the idea myself recently. I don't have a whole lot of fun here generally. I appreciate Carb Counters but most other parts of 3FC are not fun. Now many will say this is 'all my fault'. I don't think so. Some sure. Fervor, intensity, etc. Or some less kind word if someone chooses. But, I would try to back up what I said with links or at worse my own actual experiences. I have found people equally opinionated about anything. And I've found very few people here linking as many studies as I generally link. Some do, but not most.

In any case this is my choice. It was becoming unhealthy for me. Suzanne did let me know people 'complain' about me and that was also a factor. But she did not tell me to leave and this is my choice. And I won't be leaving completely but will be here significantly less.

So what is my 'GUT' of nutrition I've learned the past year? Carbs matter. A LOT. Sources of carbs matter. But carbs really matter. Why? Inflammation matters....A LOT. That is the root cause of heart disease, cancer, joint pain, allergies, and of course insulin itself is a root cause of diabetes.

I suspect if most women on the SAD are getting close to 200 accounting for height of course and most men 220 or more they are somewhat insulin resistant. That means you really need to address your carbs or forget weight, you are just generally putting yourself at risk.

Now I have also gone grain free. I want to point this out. Unless anyone on 3FC has gone grain free for at least three months they not only don't know if grain free is healthy or not for me or anyone else on the planet, they don't know if it is right for them or not. Period. They haven't tried it. They can assume that is their choice. They can choose to never find out. But they will never know. I am not saying that is the wrong choice or not for them, only they can decide for them.

Note I did try vegetarian for around 8 months. And I respect deeply the moral and environmental reasons for it. I did lose weight. But I was also getting sick and not feeling well. Perhaps I didn't do it correctly but I did try it. Until someone does something similar with grains...they have no idea about going grain free do they? Sure they can have assumptions but they can't know.

Anyhow the grain free community is exploding in America. In fact I find 3FC behind in a lot of ways in the advice here. A calorie is a calorie is just devastatingly wrong advice to me. We aren't robots that are created to do fine on solar or gas or nuclear or whatever and the only thing that matters is kilojoules. If there is one thing everyone needs to know a calorie is NOT a calorie.

You will be a significantly different human being (health and weight wise) if you are eating 2,000 calories a day on high carb low fat versus 2,000 calories a day on low carb high fat. Especially if you are insulin resistant to some degree which most of us with a weight problem are. Very important note: If you then say want to drop under 2,000 calories much easier I found on low carb high fat. My appetite plummeted. Plummeted away from grains and most non-vegie carbs. As good as it sounds, a plummeting appetite, it is even better to experience it.

Calories do matter but calorie counting doesn't work for most of us. If it did we would be living in a different world then the one we see with our own eyes and our fellow human beings walking around.

Anyhow there is such a vibrant community all over the Net for grain free, low carb, and whole foods. I know I helped some. And frankly if I helped one person for every 100 complaints I would take that ratio no questions asked.

Again this is my choice. I'll probably check once a week or so. But I will rarely be posting from now on. If you read the articles about me you can find my twitter handle and I find twitter to be a much better place for me. Not saying for others for me. Just as I am saying people have different levels of carbs they can handle. But for those of us overweight and especially with weight in the mid-section the best possible thing you can be doing for yourself is being here in carb counters and being aware of carbs.

Best of luck to everyone.

IanG 04-14-2014 03:16 PM

Thanks DG. It has been fun and I mean that.


Inflammation matters....A LOT. That is the root cause of heart disease, cancer, joint pain, allergies, and of course insulin itself is a root cause of diabetes.
On a final note, I agree. But carbs has nothing to do with it. Omega 6s and omega 3s have.

Omega 3s have smacked my inflammation on the head. From joint pain to oral health.

Oily fish rules! And a little carbs don't do no harm. My life got a lot better when I started eating a portion of oats for breakfast.

moonkissed 04-14-2014 03:41 PM

Goodbye & i wish you well :)

If I may be perfectly honest, I come to this site alot & mostly just lurk lol I like to read the posts for motivation & also for helpful information & to learn. I surely still have so much to learn.

I often began to just straight skip over your posts without even reading them. You often came across IMO as a self righteous preacher type. You obviously are happy with your plan & had success & kindly want to share that with others ofcourse! But instead of being helpful it often came across more as pushy. A whole I am right & everyone needs to listen to me and follow what I say attitude.

I am not saying that is how you meant it at all. I do think you were just trying to be helpful & the internet often makes it difficult to judge tone.

It is kindof like discussions between meat lovers & vegans lol There is no winning or losing. Discussing & sharing your views is great but neither side should be attempting to change the others minds. And it often felt that some threads turned from a friendly discussion into several people bickering about which is best and/or trying to change the others opinion.

There is just so many different ways to do this journey. I follow a ton of blogs and follow people who are my inspiration and every single one of them has a balanced diet including carbs. So it obviously works for many people. I love carbs. No one can ever change my mind that carbs do not contain alittle piece of heaven. So when I visit the site & I am not on low carb sections of the site I just don't want to see every thread turn into carbs are evil like someone is trying to force me to agree or make me feel bad for my evil carb loving ways lol. There is just so much stress & doubt already in the weightloss pile ya know? lol

idk I didn't mean this post to come across as rude & i hope you didn't take it that way. I was just trying to explain how some may feel to your posting style. I surely do not want u to feel u need to leave the site. :hug: I think you have done a great job losing the weight & keeping it off and it is nice that you want to share that with others.

berryblondeboys 04-14-2014 04:00 PM


Originally Posted by IanG (Post 4984367)
And a little carbs don't do no harm. My life got a lot better when I started eating a portion of oats for breakfast.

But that is your experience, you can't use your experience to say it's what is Ok for everyone else.

You simply may not be as sensitive to carbs and your body might need more omega 3s and 6s (though I'm sure we all could use more).

berryblondeboys 04-14-2014 04:05 PM


Originally Posted by diamondgeog (Post 4984323)

So what is my 'GUT' of nutrition I've learned the past year? Carbs matter. A LOT. Sources of carbs matter. But carbs really matter. Why? Inflammation matters....A LOT. That is the root cause of heart disease, cancer, joint pain, allergies, and of course insulin itself is a root cause of diabetes.

I suspect if most women on the SAD are getting close to 200 accounting for height of course and most men 220 or more they are somewhat insulin resistant. That means you really need to address your carbs or forget weight, you are just generally putting yourself at risk.

And I said to IanG this is your experience, but not necessarily a universal experience (though I do tend to agree with you here for many of us who are severely obese - and I do eat a low carb diet).

I just know that it's not true for everyone. My mother in law eats tons of carbs and not so much protein and fat and she's never had problems with anything.

My husband doesn't seem to have these issues either - nor my older son.

My younger son and me? We are just wired differently - it is so obvious when you closely observe our trends of mood, hunger, weight, etc.

That is why there is no "one diet" that works for everyone in all situations. THOUGH... I do think the lower carb diets are extremely helpful for those of us who find just "cutting" back very difficult to do.

MauiKai 04-14-2014 04:36 PM


Originally Posted by berryblondeboys (Post 4984394)
But that is your experience, you can't use your experience to say it's what is Ok for everyone else.

You simply may not be as sensitive to carbs and your body might need more omega 3s and 6s (though I'm sure we all could use more).

He didn't say it was for everybody. He was just saying what has worked for him.

I know what works for me doesn't work for all. But it's good to share with others what works for YOU, because someone else out there might end up benefiting from something similar.

kaplods 04-14-2014 04:52 PM

I enjoy reading many of your posts, but often get frustrated with your dismissal of other viewpoints, even those that are nearly, but not quite identical to your own. You sometimes seem unwilling to hear any opinion but the exact one you hold, which can come across as zealotry, especially when you critique people who put as much or more effort, study, logical thought and personal experimentation into their choices and theories as you have into yours.

Zealotry is often a normal stage in the convert experience. Several years ago, I was where you're at, convinced that I had found in low-carb, no-grain eating, The Holy Grail of health and nutrition, not only for myself, but for everyone on the planet. Like a religious convert, I was high on my own newly found convictions, and determined to convert everyone else, whether they where willing or not.

Some very patient people here (nelie, especially) helped me see that I didn't have all the answers I thought I did, and pointed me towards books and studies that contradicted (or provided alternative explanations for) some of the information I was passing along as fact rather than theory.

I'm still convinced that low-grain and low-carb is right for me, and many others, I'm just less convinced that it's right for everyone.

Developing a grand, unified theory of nutrition and weightloss is a noble goal. I've been at it for more than 40 years, and haven't made much progress, but I'm in good company in that regard.

The top PhD researchers do not agree on a grand, unified theory, so it's hardly surprising that we here at 3FC do not all agree.

kaplods 04-14-2014 05:10 PM


Originally Posted by MauiKai (Post 4984419)
He didn't say it was for everybody. He was just saying what has worked for him.

To be fair, that's not entirely accurate. A great many of diamondgeog's posts are extremely critical of viewpoints and experiences that differ, even slightly from his own.

On it's own, that's not necessarilly a bad thing, but when you advocate a one-size-fits-most approach, you will get (and have to expect) a lot of disagreeing and even upset responses, and I think that's all that is happening here.

I agree with a great deal of what diamondgeo posts, but his manner of presentation can come across as condemnatory of anyone who disagrees or has a different experience.

There is room on 3FC for extreme opinions and attitudes, but when you push a controversial theory, people from the middle to the other end are going to push back.

If you want less push-back, you have to tone down your arguments. And if you don't want to tone down your arguments, you have to accept the push-back or find a forum in which your opinions are mainstream/the norm.

If diamondgeog wants no disagreement, a strict paleo site might be a more comfortable fit, but I've seen a fair amount of disagreement over similar topics on such sites as well (and pretty much all weight management sites).

I think a unified theory of nutrition is a long way off. There are too many conflicting theories, and contradictory research to support them.


magical 04-14-2014 06:19 PM

I don't really read many (actually, any) of the long posts here on what to eat and what not to eat as I'm really fortunate that I can eat all types of food such that for me, it's all about cals in and cals out only.

I note though that a lot of diamondgeog's "controversial" posts are in the carb counters sub-forum. Likewise, the IEers post in their own threads or the CIC sub-forum. Yet other groups post in other forums meant only for them. IMO, this is the correct thing to do to avoid flounces and drawn out arguments.

yoyoma 04-14-2014 08:09 PM

Hey, DG, please do keep posting at least some to inspire people with your personal story and experiences! You know that I've tried a few new things on the basis of your recommendation.

A lot of the folks, including me, who have given you some push-back are doing so from a position of having had our own missteps in the past and at least some of us have wanted to help you make your posts more effective. You are far from unique in your posting style, but I think you are so prolific that you made some waves before you truly had enough time to adjust.

If you post about your experiences in maintenance, you may well inspire some people to give your approach a try and if only one person is helped by that, you have made the world a better place. :)

kaplods 04-14-2014 08:40 PM

It's also important to remember that there's nothing wrong with having passionate opinions and expressing them (you just have to be prepared for other people to have and express equally passionate, but different, even opposing opinions).

The only way to avoid disagreements, debates, and even occasionally heated arguments is to say nothing of interest.

Wannabeskinny 04-15-2014 08:40 AM

A "Grand Unified Theory??"

JerseyGyrl 04-15-2014 09:56 AM

I think we can all relate when something works well for us, we get excited. When we get excited, we want to tell everyone. But....that being said, the difference between excitement & being extreme is a slippery slope.

If something works for you....great! What worked so well for you, may not work for someone else. We all respond differently. Thats why so many different eating plans exsist. Its not one size fits all.

I just celebrated 10 years on Atkins. I don't eat grains. This is MY choice, MY decision. Many people do eat them and lose weight. That is THEIR choice. There is no "right" way to lose weight. Its all about finding what works for you. That being said, do I feel Atkins is a good plan? Obviously I do or I wouldn't have stuck with it for 10 years....but....its a good plan for ME, not for everyone.

I've been on this site since 2004 and I post often. I tend to stay mainly in the Atkins area but, do occasionally venture to other areas when low carb is being discussed. I will add my 2 cents but, I try to be respectful. I've had my share of conversations with those who don't believe in the Atkins lifestyle. That is their right. Getting into a heated debate isn't going to prove anything. In fact, it may sway them even further away. There is a saying I'm sure you are familiar with....you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. It's true.

DG, I think the only thing you are guilty of here is being overly excited about what has worked for you. You should be very proud of what you have accomplished. I respect your decision of taking a break from this site. If you are no longer having fun here, its time to cut back. IMHO, you don't mean any disrespect, you're excitement has just become extreme.

I wish you continued success & happiness:hug:

Pattience 04-15-2014 11:03 AM

As someone prone to evangelism myself, i understand your frustration a bit. However being similar to you but with a completely different point of view makes me just want to express myself and highlight the flaws in the arguments.

I know a lot of people here don't bother reading my posts and i think, oh well their loss.

But for what its worth, i have learnt quite a bit about this no grain and low carb approach from you. When i disagree with a poster, it makes me go and do a bit more research. And so i've learnt that way. And i'm grateful for that.

And now in case you haven't picked this up from another post i wrote, i am reading the Gary Taubes book good calorie bad calorie and enjoying it too. I hope i get to the end. I am not sure though that i will come around to low carb but i feel i've already been won over the low fat debate. But that was before this book even but the book is interesting and so far i think credible.

So anyway back to your position. You seem to take the position that those of us who are not doing low carb are all doing low fat. But You can do highER carb + protein + moderate fats as well. Your posts don't seem to acknowledge this possibility.

Because i am against refined sugars, i have started to understand how you feel about carbs but i am still not inclined that way, all the more so since i try to be as vegetarian as possible (for moral reasons). But who knows one day i may learn something else that makes me decide to quit grain carbs too and start eating baby cows and grown up cows and lambs and piggies all the time too. I did have beef for dinner tonight and last night - i made 500g of spaghetti bolognese. IN Australia, nearly all our beef grows on grass in this country but pigs are treated so badly as are most chickens so i do my best to avoid all pigs and any chicken that's not free range. I'm not perfect. Sometimes i weaken. but i do my bit. And yeah, i can't get my head around how this huge global population can all survive by going grain or carb free but we can all live pretty damned harmoniously and healthily without refined sugars.

So do come back from time to time. I am sure none of us really mean you ill and that most of us are glad you've found something that works so well for you. But you gotta take human nature into account - we are just never going to all agree on something this complex. and one thing i've learnt again in the last week of reading a particular book is that diet science if a very fraught area of science, difficult to get to the truth of matters.

diamondgeog 04-15-2014 02:05 PM

I started this thread mostly to explain why I was going away for the most part. And it was irrespective of any feedback here or comment from Suzanne…mostly. I was coming to my own conclusion I was posting too much, spending too much time. Responding again so soon because of the nature of the post and reading the comments.

I think my ‘fervor’ was from a few causes. Or as Kaplods had pointed out and I was also thinking this a kinder term, passion. One my experiences shocked myself. I never thought it would be as easy as it was after the transition period. My appetite just plummeted. Second my weight loss and more specifically my belly. I thought maybe best case I would lose 50lbs in a year. But the health and vitality? Mind-blowing. So yes my posting was mostly for helping strangers. I was like this is awesome how can you not share?

Next as I mentioned in my post above there is a range of carb sensitivity but the vast majority of humans have some limit. I think people we know who can ‘eat all the carbs they want’ probably aren’t really. Although I am sure there are some outliers that can handle a huge load. Heck most of us when we are young can handle significantly more. I have a co-worker who can ‘handle’ a lot of carbs. I put that in quotes because he doesn’t gain weight but he is also at the doctor a lot. He is Asian. But remember diabetes rates are very high for Asian Americans. Even if on average they can handle more carbs, they are now eating sugar, HFCS, modern grain, and probably non-soaked, fermented, or sprouted grains. And getting sick (maybe sicker) just like many other ethnic groups.

Epiphanies from just the past few days: These last few days for me have been fantastic since PaleoFX. This article last night I came across cemented a lot of cracking my personal nutrition theory at least: It is short and a must read, trust me. http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/Huuo...t-obesity.html

So just in the last few days I have come across Jonathon Bailor and Cate Shanahan and books such as the Calorie Myth, The Science of Slim, and Deep Nutrition. And the above article cemented stuff for me. I often post that diets can (I will soften it from will), well pardon me but kill you. Sorry if that is too harsh.

Well I can say it did kill my direct bloodline in just three generations. I will not have biological children. Me or my wife or both were infertile. My grandmother died of diabetes. My uncle has diabetes and dementia. My bloodline is from Eastern Europe, Russia. Probably not too much fruit and definitely no or little sugar for most of my ancestor history. Probably mostly fat, dairy, meat, hearty vegetables. My complete thriving now is because I am eating food I thrive on. And cutting out food that, well, kills me. It really is that simple. My genetics are that when my ancestors came across the RARE honey or fruit, their body stored it. So what happened when I gave that to myself multiple times a day instead of occasionally over the course of a year? Well just about everything I experienced happened.

Cate Shanahan, I love this concept…food is not just nutrition but includes ‘instructions’ for our genes. So I am now giving my body ‘instructions’ to burn fat and get lean. Before I was giving it ‘instructions’ to store fat. I am going to love exploring this concept more.

BTW be VERY careful about omega 6. Throughout most of human history it was a 1 to 1 ratio to omega 3 in our diets. Then perhaps it went to 1 to 3 after the agricultural revolution. Then it went crazy for the industrial world. It is often 25 to 1 in American diets now. This is mostly due to vegetable oils (not olive oil) and grain fed meat.

Science. I don’t think approaches are all equal because of science. Now obviously people disagree with me about the science. But I think the science is overwhelming that when insulin is present food is getting stored not used and you are subjecting your body to inflammation when you spike your insulin. Especially with modern diets.

Lastly my fervor was mostly due to this: compliant scientists. The nutrition info we have been told the last 50 years is so bad it is criminal. If you haven’t researched Ancel Keys and the 7 country study you are doing yourself a big disservice. And I wish this was a joke but it isn’t. The basis for cholesterol causing heart disease are studies on rabbits and chickens. They had to be force fed. Ok give a rabbit meat, dah bad things are going to happen. There are so many compliant scientists.

Most of your cholesterol is pre-determined. I myself have barely budged mine and I probably just increased my HDL. But going months and months and months with 5 to 8 times my previous level of saturated fats I went from 150 total to 163 total. And ask any heart specialist who is not a compliant scientist and they will tell you that their patients that get heart disease have cholesterol levels all over the place: high, low, medium. I’ve heard getting diabetes is a much better predictor of getting a heart attack.

Look at the dietary recommendations we’ve been given. Fat and meat (protein) is the problem not sugar and carbs. Whole grains are good for you. Vegetable oils are good for you and much better than butter, coconut oil, and lard and tallow. These pieces of advice were killing me at least. So yeah pretty angry at industry and compliant scientists. What are you left with if you cut down fat and protein? Upping sugar and carbs. And that is exactly what most Americans have done.

One irony of all of this is I got my health back because I was so open. I was completely open-minded. After all my nutrition knowledge has done a 180 in the last 11 months. So when people say ‘I can handle carbs’ what relevance does that have for me? I clearly can’t. And if you look at most of my posts I always say there is a range. When people go over their range. I challenged myself on everything I thought I knew about nutrition and challenged all the medical advice of the last 50 years, that is why I succeeded.

And yes I posted over and over carb overconsumption is the biggest cause of what is going on in America. Why? Because it is. You can’t argue this. There are stats. Fat consumption and protein consumption has gone down the last 50 years, especially the good saturated fats (ie not man-made Crisco, but grass fed butter, lard, tallow and organic virgin coconut oil are all good). We replaced whole milk with skim, full fat yogurt with slim. Eating the fat and skin on meats to not. Grass fed products with grain fed. Although that is changing. Butter sales are up for instance and for sure coconut oil. Sugar and carbs have gone crazy up since the fat is the problem advice. You simply cannot argue that because that is what happened. We didn’t’ say east of the Mississippi you guys go low carb high fat, no vegetable oils. Everyone west go high carb low fat more vegetable oils. The whole country went high carb low fat more vegetable oils.

Anyhow just wanted to respond to some of the comments. Because of the nature of the post, ie going away. I will go away now mostly….And ultimately it was what I needed to do for me. But it was also prompted by the ‘complaints’. If you notice from my posts I got passionate about ideas but I never ‘attacked’ people. Other people did attack me personally. And really complaining to Suzanne? Ignore function exists for a reason. I ignored just one person and it made my last couple of months here much better. It was getting personal and I do not like that at all. Passion on ideas not people I say. I will repeat I challenged ideas I never attacked a person. Do I have enough of an ego, and more importantly do I think that I post stuff and links that would not be on 3FC without me, to think 3FC will be poorer without me posting as much? Yes I do. But it will probably be 'better' for some and who knows? Maybe better for all. Would people have heard of Deep Nutrition or Calorie Myth without me posting and the above article? Maybe, maybe not.

Where I am headed? I could not be more excited. My wife has dropped 27 pounds since January and is DOING AWESOME. My daughter has thrived like never before since we now give her an egg every morning and cut out here oatmeal. She is not grain free but we are heading that way and she eats pork rinds now instead of goldfish…and loves them!!!! She was happy before but even happier now. It is such a beautiful thing to see. So I’ve already helped my loved ones so much, that makes me so happy. However I could not help my uncle in time which makes me furious about the nutritional knowledge we’ve been told. I was heading toward who knows what and my wife was also. Thank Gaia we caught it in time. Not in time to make us fertile though. I am helping co-workers. Ultimately I am going to probably self-publish something in the Kindle store. Could be in months it might take years.

I am also super excited about America believe it or not. Soda sales are plummeting, even diet. Like I posted butter sales up margarine sales down. The Walmart across the street carries Kerrygold butter now. It blew my mind. My local big supermarket HEB is just exploding with organic products now. So as I see it super-exciting. And with social media there is now way the message fat is good for you carbs/sugar are the problems for most is going to be able to get pushed aside. Kellogg a lot of analysts feel is in big trouble, I recently read an article on that.

I am very excited, for me, my family, everyone. Anyhow everyone here will be just as fine without me. But it was getting to be a drag on (the non-Carb counters and even here sometime) 3FC and the finding out people complained about me was just the cherry on top telling me it was time to go.

Here is my last takeaway: very few of us thrive on whatever we want to eat. Almost no one. Find out through experimentation the foods you thrive on (sometimes it can be eliminating foods, sometimes increasing them like I did saturated fat and dairy, and sometimes reducing them not eliminating them will ‘do the trick’). Then find the foods within that you love. Make those the vast basis of your way of eating. Eliminate or vastly reduce the foods your genes just cannot handle. If you do that I guarantee you will have the best weight and health of your life. And whole foods whole foods whole foods. Stay away from processed as much as you can and NEVER use vegetable oils except olive or avocado for salads. Macadamia for cooking if you can afford it.

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