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Two remarkable articles about going grain free

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Old 04-09-2014, 03:59 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by diamondgeog View Post
I've yet to find a single source that is good science showing grains are healthy. Not one. At least not any RCT.
This is just as true of grain-free diets. RCT diet studies using human test subjects are exceedingly rare, because they're impossible to do outside of a secure laboratory, and by secure, I mean, locked down, no visitors allowed, because even in locked hospital wing experiments, visitors (and even staff) have been known to smuggle in patients/participants nonallowed foods.

Creating a secure, closed environment, with measures in place to prevent smuggled in foods, is not only difficult and of questionable ethics, it's also prohibitively expensive.

Personal experiences of "feeling better" is subject to placebo effect, and are not proof. At my last physical, I remarked to my physician that I sometimes wondered whether my own relief from eliminating wheat and other grains was psychosomatic, and his reply was that it was always difficult to tell, and recounted a case in which people were flocking to Mexico to get surgery to remove their gallbladders from a doctor with an amazing "cure rate" Patients all reported feeling amazing, and it turned out the doctor didn't remove anything, he just made an incision and stitched it up again.

Because of placebo effect, and the dearth of RCT, all nutritional theories need to be evaluated by correlational data and trial and error, because that's all there is.

I do support self-experimentation, because there is no alternative, but there just isn't enough evidence to claim that grain-inclusive and grain-exclusive diets are universally healthy (or unhealthy).

And when I use the word myth, I do not mean that the assumptions cannot be true, only that the assumptions are asserted without proof. Urban legends are myths, even those with a basis in a factual event. The myth doesn't lie in the fact that the situation ight not have happened to someone, somewhere, sometime. The myth lies in the fact that there is not enough evidence to prove the situation true. It's the belief without evidence that makes a myth.
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:23 PM   #17
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Aside from 'nutritional' issues alone, there are problems with modern grains caused by hybridisation.

Grains have been modified so as to, eg, make them resistant to certain kinds of pests or diseases, make them more hardy for short growing seasons, etc, etc.

The result is that many grains are no longer recognised as food by our bodies. Some people with sturdy digestive systems can handle them. Others (some might call them the canaries in the gold mine) cannot. They experience inflammation and digestive challenges.

Sadly, the same thing is being done to fruit. It's called 'the candification of fruit' where hybridisation is being done to produce more intensely sweet produce. Some people's bodies can't cope with the increased sugar content.

Besides this, there is an issue of depletion of soil content. Erosion caused by outdated and sometimes irresponsible farming . Some grains just don't have the same nutritional content they once used to have on account of the fact that soils are depleted.

And finally, there is the issue of poisoning of produce that happens from use of herbicides and pesticides that are not friendly to the system.

People question grain free and so they are entitled to do. Some people will not move forward with an idea until proofs are hammered out ... which often takes years.

I can only speak for myself. 40 years of struggling with weight loss and now I have given up grains and sugars. In less than 10 months, I lost more than 100 pounds. I could literally feel the fat burning happening inside me.

Call this placebo effect if you want. The reality is that my doctor tells me that my blood profile is now one 'to die for.' All health indicators, contrary to what they were 1 year ago, have turned around. He says that whatever I am doing, I should keep doing it!

He also now points out that modern day food guides are not scientific but instead produced by governments aiming to support various industries and economies. Where do human beings come into the equation?

I don't need to 'weight' for more evidence than this.

Go, Diamondgeog, go and keep spreading the word. Let s/he who has ears let them listen!
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:51 PM   #18
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Thanks Annik, and very big congrats to you as well. Kaplods I can assure you it is not placebo effect. I thought my back pain was from running.

But we still go to a great taco place by us a lot. A few months ago I was still getting corn tortillas and chips with the guac (great food for me).

It was my last grain. Somehow I thought it was 'different' from other grains. And a year ago I didn't even know it was a grain. Well I cut it out. The back pain went away and never came back.

My allergies have gone away. I can run now and yes that was with practice. But I tried before and failed. I think my lower inflammation from no grains helped me become a runner this time around. Annik touched on so many good points but didn't even also mention the anti-nutrients. Or no one on the planet needs grains, no one. There are better sources for the minerals and vitamins without the anti-nutrients.

As I said before, it isn't even close for me. Nor for thousands on the Internet thriving without grains. And I haven't heard anyone really say yeah I cut out grains for three months and I feel horrible. I am sure they exist. And I am sure people can't make the change.

I understand that. It would have seemed absurd to me a year ago that I could give up just wheat not to mention corn and rice and oatmeal also. Spaghetti. I used to love that. Pizza. Yes I haven't forgotten. But you adapt and find other things you love. And I still have cheese and tomatoes two of my favorite parts of pizza.

Why would I err on the side of them not being harmful when all my experiences point the opposite way? And thanks to pointing out that is important. Especially when they are not essential. It makes no sense at all to me to keep them in my diet if I am thriving without them. And all I am proposing for people reading this who haven't done it, is to try. It might change their lives.

Oh and I should say I've goofed a few times the last 4 or 5 months and had them and each time I felt awful afterward. Perhaps placebo on that but I doubt it. Anyhow the internet is chocked full of personal accounts of people just thriving (best word I can think of) going grain free.
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:29 AM   #19
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I've benefited greatly from grain reduction, and I think it's more than placebo, but just because grains are unhealthy for me, doesn't mean they are for everyone. And just because a healthy grain-free diet is possible, doesn't mean a grain-inclusive diet is inherently unhealthy.

There is evidence on both sides of the grain argument, and it's hypocritical to discount the pro-grain evidence for lack of RCT while accepting the anti-grain theory which is subject to all of the same weaknesses, including a lack of RCT.

If we accept anectdotal and correlational evidence for anti-grain arguments, and dismiss the possibility of placebo effect, then we have to do the same for pro-grain arguments.

I'm just saying that the standard of proof needs to be the same. If anti-grain theories are to be believed on anectdotal and correlation evidence alone, then the pro-grain theories need to be judged by the same standards.
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Old 04-10-2014, 05:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annik View Post
Aside from 'nutritional' issues alone, there are problems with modern grains caused by hybridisation.

Grains have been modified so as to, eg, make them resistant to certain kinds of pests or diseases, make them more hardy for short growing seasons, etc, etc.

The result is that many grains are no longer recognised as food by our bodies. Some people with sturdy digestive systems can handle them. Others (some might call them the canaries in the gold mine) cannot. They experience inflammation and digestive challenges.

Sadly, the same thing is being done to fruit. It's called 'the candification of fruit' where hybridisation is being done to produce more intensely sweet produce. Some people's bodies can't cope with the increased sugar content.

Besides this, there is an issue of depletion of soil content. Erosion caused by outdated and sometimes irresponsible farming . Some grains just don't have the same nutritional content they once used to have on account of the fact that soils are depleted.

And finally, there is the issue of poisoning of produce that happens from use of herbicides and pesticides that are not friendly to the system.

People question grain free and so they are entitled to do. Some people will not move forward with an idea until proofs are hammered out ... which often takes years.

I can only speak for myself. 40 years of struggling with weight loss and now I have given up grains and sugars. In less than 10 months, I lost more than 100 pounds. I could literally feel the fat burning happening inside me.

Call this placebo effect if you want. The reality is that my doctor tells me that my blood profile is now one 'to die for.' All health indicators, contrary to what they were 1 year ago, have turned around. He says that whatever I am doing, I should keep doing it!

He also now points out that modern day food guides are not scientific but instead produced by governments aiming to support various industries and economies. Where do human beings come into the equation?

I don't need to 'weight' for more evidence than this.

Go, Diamondgeog, go and keep spreading the word. Let s/he who has ears let them listen!

I am sorry Annik but there is so much self-delusion going on in this post.

First of all you cannot literally feel the fat burning in your body. Its beyond possibility. Where you feel it is in your imagination. That's what's happening.

Clearly you have limited understanding of how bodies work and how science works if you can say something like that. The body just does not have the sensory capacity to detect fat burning and convey that information to the brain.

As for the claims you make in the first few sentences of your post. Again these are unsubstantiated claims. Show the evidence. I know there are certain people making such claims all the time. It does not make them true.

Its good the diet is working for you annik. I am not suggesting the diet would not work. But i contend the diet is not necessary for most people - myself included.

The idea that fruit is bad for you because its sweeter than it was in the past is a dangerous idea. I don't dismiss the claims that fruit is sweeter or that hybridisation of grains has changed them but i do doubt the notions that this means they are no longer digestible by people. I think that's not possible. I do not think the changes in fruit and grains through breeding has been of such a kind that would make them into something so different that makes them indigestible to humans or would cause digestive difficulties that did not occur before.

I say that because as with animal breeding, a cow is still a cow until it can no longer breed with a bull and a dog is still a dog so long as it can breed fertile offspring with another dog. For all the hybridisation of domestic animals, people who've always eaten meat do not suddenly become unable to eat meat. Ditto for grains and fruits.

Again its simply your imagination in play. The placebo effect is such a phenomenon also. People are by nature prone to flights of fancy over acute rationality. People are just not good at objective aberration - correction, observation - that's why we have double blind studies.

So unless you can come up with some solid scientific evidence for the claims you make, i urge people to disregard your assertions.

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Old 04-10-2014, 06:49 AM   #21
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There is a huge and growing body of evidence grain consumption leads to leaky gut which is then a root cause of a lot of serious maladies for lots and lots of folk. From cancer and heart disease on down.

If anyone wants to still eat grains, their choice. I think in 10 years this will be 'common knowledge'. I'd personally chosen not to wait.
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Old 04-10-2014, 07:38 AM   #22
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Diamond, Saying that grains lead to leaky gut is not the same thing as saying that because of hybridisation grains are no longer healthy for some people when grains would have been in the past.

If someone is getting leaky gut now, then they were more likely to always have been susceptible to it.
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Old 04-10-2014, 08:26 AM   #23
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Diamondgeog,

Just a ps ...a good friend who is afflicted by multiple sclerosis has been advised by her medical team to go grain free. The reason given by her physicians: grains especially those with gluten cause inflammation.

Annik
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w1: 11 lbs; w2: 4 lbs; w3: 3.6 lbs; w4: 5 lbs; w5: 5 lbs;w6: 2.4 lbs; w7: 1.4lbs; w8: 6lbs ; w9: 1lb w10: 4.6 lbs w11: 0lbs w12: 5 lbs; w13: 2 lbs w14: 4 lbs ; w15: no w.i.; w16: 11.5 lbs ; w17: 1 lb; w18: 2.5 lbs; w19: 2 lbs; w20: .5; w21: no w.i.; w22: 9 lbs; w23: 3.5 lbs ...

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Old 04-10-2014, 08:36 AM   #24
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Grains were NEVER healthy for anyone. Humans first started eating them around 12,000 to 10,000 years ago. If you take how long we have been human and make that a 24 hour clock, that is 5 minutes ago. Not long enough for them to be healthy.

But they were a source of calories and calories are important. I suspect a lot of humans died out 10,000 years ago so we are the most adapted. But I still think they are fundamentally unhealthy for humans.

It is interesting to me that in Africa, India, Asia, the Americas early cultures all fermented, soaked, and sprouted their grains. People had a lot more time to be intimate with food 10,000 years ago. They probably observed all the negatives grains were having on them. They found these three methods made the negatives less harmful.

Asian countries also have one of the highest per capita diabetes rates and it is soaring. I have a friend from Nepal. He is very interested in this. He says his mom would never change, just past the point of change, and she eats a lot of rice. I asked does she have arthritis? He said yes, everyone in my family gets it. Not proof of anything but interesting.

Speaking of proof all the studies on grains are healthy are associational studies. No RCTs. Granted they are, as Kaplods says, very hard to do. Especially long term ones. But all the short term RCTs show grains are harmful and whole grains are the most harmful.

I am very glad for this discussion. I am glad people are reading it. I have I think 5 links now. Everyone should research themselves. If you don't believe me, go grain free for two to three months. See. Read on the Internet. Read people's stories of going grain free and how it has transformed their lives. These stories are at least as good as any of the science out there since there aren't any RCT long term on grains being healthy.

And also realize since they became officially recommended as the base of our food pyramid obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer have soared. Does it prove they are the main or a big culprit? No. But more than enough combined with all the knowledge in those articles, and my own personal experiences to stay away from them forever.

I know you eat them Pattience, and you think those articles are BS in your own words. That is your choice. Everyone reading this thread has to make their own choices.
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Old 04-10-2014, 08:50 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattience View Post
I am sorry Annik but there is so much self-delusion going on in this post.

First of all you cannot literally feel the fat burning in your body. Its beyond possibility. Where you feel it is in your imagination. That's what's happening.
You can think whatever you want Pattience. The experience is mine. In the weeks when I was losing more than 3 pounds/week I could feel the internal combustion. No question about this. It was not water weight that was coming off because this was happening well into the process...not the first week. And many weeks when there were more than 3 pound losses. It happened repeatedly.

Quote:

Clearly you have limited understanding of how bodies work and how science works if you can say something like that. The body just does not have the sensory capacity to detect fat burning and convey that information to the brain.
When I reported the symptoms of feeling Heat to both my physicians and pharmacist, their observations were that it was the result of fat metabolisation. You can take it up with them if you like. I know what I felt.

Quote:
As for the claims you make in the first few sentences of your post. Again these are unsubstantiated claims. Show the evidence. I know there are certain people making such claims all the time. It does not make them true.
I am not asking you to accept anything I say. For those who have ears, let them hear.

Quote:

Its good the diet is working for you annik. I am not suggesting the diet would not work. But i contend the diet is not necessary for most people - myself included.
The diet works for anyone who suffers from insulin resistance, leptin resistance, and metabolic syndrome.

Because allopathic medicine is philosophically highly conservative, it takes many years before new science breaks through barriers of resistance to acceptance. Some years ago, no one had any idea about any of these things ... Or for that matter even any notion about insulin. They did know that ants were attracted to the urine of people with a particular kind of condition (which later turned out to be identified and named diabetes) because of the high sugar content of the urine.

Quote:
The idea that fruit is bad for you because its sweeter than it was in the past is a dangerous idea.
A bad idea? Sugar consumption is one of the most serious nutritional issues going today. Increasing the sugar content of anything for any reason is a bad idea when it comes to nutrition! Leads me to suspect you really don't know what you are talking about!

Quote:
I don't dismiss the claims that fruit is sweeter or that hybridisation of grains has changed them but i do doubt the notions that this means they are no longer digestible by people. I think that's not possible. I do not think the changes in fruit and grains through breeding has been of such a kind that would make them into something so different that makes them indigestible to humans or would cause digestive difficulties that did not occur before.
You are free to think what you like. The increase in digestive system illnesses like crohns, colitis, and celiac disease are connected to questions about modifications in food sources -- it's not rocket science. Make something so hardy that it is resistant to all kinds of weather and plague means it also becomes resistant to human digestion.

The rise in arthritis, osteoarthritis, spondylosis, irritable bowel syndrome, and other inflammatory conditions (some types of ms included) are thought to be connected to this.

Quote:
I say that because as with animal breeding, a cow is still a cow until it can no longer breed with a bull and a dog is still a dog so long as it can breed fertile offspring with another dog. For all the hybridisation of domestic animals, people who've always eaten meat do not suddenly become unable to eat meat. Ditto for grains and fruits.
Ok that's just funny! You are joking right?

Quote:
Again its simply your imagination in play. The placebo effect is such a phenomenon also. People are by nature prone to flights of fancy over acute rationality. People are just not good at objective aberration - correction, observation - that's why we have double blind studies.
Mmm hmmm

Quote:
So unless you can come up with some solid scientific evidence for the claims you make, i urge people to disregard your assertions.
Most of my weight loss record is below. It speaks for itself.
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w1: 11 lbs; w2: 4 lbs; w3: 3.6 lbs; w4: 5 lbs; w5: 5 lbs;w6: 2.4 lbs; w7: 1.4lbs; w8: 6lbs ; w9: 1lb w10: 4.6 lbs w11: 0lbs w12: 5 lbs; w13: 2 lbs w14: 4 lbs ; w15: no w.i.; w16: 11.5 lbs ; w17: 1 lb; w18: 2.5 lbs; w19: 2 lbs; w20: .5; w21: no w.i.; w22: 9 lbs; w23: 3.5 lbs ...

No longer morbidly obese! Total loss now = 108 lbs. With thanks to the Ideal Protein Diet (a form of ketogenic nutrition)!

Low carb life is my liberation!


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Old 04-10-2014, 01:28 PM   #26
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I want to point out that this is the low carb section of the forum and as such it is an appropriate place for the discussions on the benefits of going grain free. If this were the general weight loss sections, I would expect the types of arguments that this thread has evolved into.

Pattience, you may not have intended it this way but it sounds to me like you are attacking Annie on this subject in a way that is not appropriate for this support forum. It would be like going to the Weight Loss Surgery support forum and ridiculing weight loss surgery.
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:33 PM   #27
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Bottom line: Low carb/ketogenic works for some, and it's been proven that it is not dangerous to general health in the short term (it takes decades to prove the long term effects of anything) and well being, unless you take it to impractical extremes. Same as calorie counting, which also works for some. If you're trying to lose weight, pick a side you can succeed on.

I don't understand the energy invested in disproving it's efficacy. I certainly don't argue that calorie counting is bad or flawed science. When did discussing our weight loss techniques become as volatile as discussing our political affiliations?
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Old 04-10-2014, 01:55 PM   #28
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If you're trying to lose weight, pick a side you can succeed on.
Well said, Radiojane! And why badger someone as to personal views as to what does or doesn't work when it clearly is working for that person!

I am not asking anyone to accept what I say.

I am just so darned sincerely grateful that someone told me about 'a way' that turns out to works so well for me. I have struggled with weight loss all my life. Lost weight many times and gained back all plus more.

I had all but given up on weight loss... virtual surrender/resignation to being morbidly obese... when my brother shared with me his experience with ketogenic nutrition.

It is the first time in my life that there was no teeth clenching clawing struggle to stay true to a programme. Ketogenic nutrition is obviously addressing something that was going wrong inside me.

And now in less than 10 months, its 100 pounds off plus more. These kinds of results often make the news... evidence Diamondgeog!

My results speak for themselves and in no way will I waste my breath or my time on trying to defend it.

Either believe or reject it. It's your choice.

Annik
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w1: 11 lbs; w2: 4 lbs; w3: 3.6 lbs; w4: 5 lbs; w5: 5 lbs;w6: 2.4 lbs; w7: 1.4lbs; w8: 6lbs ; w9: 1lb w10: 4.6 lbs w11: 0lbs w12: 5 lbs; w13: 2 lbs w14: 4 lbs ; w15: no w.i.; w16: 11.5 lbs ; w17: 1 lb; w18: 2.5 lbs; w19: 2 lbs; w20: .5; w21: no w.i.; w22: 9 lbs; w23: 3.5 lbs ...

No longer morbidly obese! Total loss now = 108 lbs. With thanks to the Ideal Protein Diet (a form of ketogenic nutrition)!

Low carb life is my liberation!


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Old 04-10-2014, 02:01 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamondgeog View Post
It is interesting to me that in Africa, India, Asia, the Americas early cultures all fermented, soaked, and sprouted their grains. People had a lot more time to be intimate with food 10,000 years ago. They probably observed all the negatives grains were having on them. They found these three methods made the negatives less harmful.
I've read that, too. Fermenting, soaking, sprouting ... all helps start the process of digestion. Sprouting also ... brings the product 'to life' ... more vitality entering the system!

Sidebar to your comment about soaring diabetes rates: The same thing has happened here in Canada among many Aboriginal peoples. Their traditional diets did not include grains and sugars. Now their diets do and diabetes rates are soaring in this population.

Go figure.
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w1: 11 lbs; w2: 4 lbs; w3: 3.6 lbs; w4: 5 lbs; w5: 5 lbs;w6: 2.4 lbs; w7: 1.4lbs; w8: 6lbs ; w9: 1lb w10: 4.6 lbs w11: 0lbs w12: 5 lbs; w13: 2 lbs w14: 4 lbs ; w15: no w.i.; w16: 11.5 lbs ; w17: 1 lb; w18: 2.5 lbs; w19: 2 lbs; w20: .5; w21: no w.i.; w22: 9 lbs; w23: 3.5 lbs ...

No longer morbidly obese! Total loss now = 108 lbs. With thanks to the Ideal Protein Diet (a form of ketogenic nutrition)!

Low carb life is my liberation!

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Old 04-10-2014, 02:12 PM   #30
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I like counter points even here.

Radiojane I do have to fundamentally disagree with you though. And I think why I disagree will be very helpful for people.

There is a TON of evidence for the safety of low carb no grains long term. Just one of many: the Inuit. They eat no grains just fat and protein and have incredibly low rates of modern diseases. Little heart attacks and cancers.

The whole world is evidence of long term low carb. For thousands of years NO ONE was eating sugar, no one eating processed foods, and before 10-12 thousand years ago no one was eating much grains if any.

This is one of the fundamental, to me, realities people have to wrap their heads around to regain their health: THE FAD, the only fad diet ever is the low fat high carb diet. That has only been tried the last 50 years. And it is killing people left and right. Since that time heart disease has skyrocketed as had diabetes and cancer and obesity.

If you want to call 12,000 years a fad, I could argue that also. Compared to a million years it is. Humans have eaten meat cooked in animal fat for millions of years. Or just raw along with eating animal fats. I'm not making a moral statement about it, I am saying what we've eaten and why it is good for us: it is what our bodies are used to thriving on. Just like bears eating salmon, I am sure that is the perfect bear diet for Alaska bears.

There, of course, is much more than meat we were eating. And non-starchy veggies, eggs, some nuts, dairy, is as big a part of my diet as meats.

But the fat is low fat high carbs for sure. The fad is clearly man-made vegetable oils.

People have been doing great long term on LCHF though. Don't kid yourself. Plenty of evidence for that. Mark Sisson of Mark's Daily Apple is in his late 50s: A male model in his early 20s would be lucky to look as good. He has been doing Paleo for decades.

Here is a link on the Inuit. I don't agree with it all especially on saturated fats. Also note I try to eat only grass fed beef because of the omega 3 to omega 6 ratio being so much better.

http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-p...se-and-cancer/

And another one: http://discovermagazine.com/2004/oct/inuit-paradox

Note I don't eat meat like them. But I make sure to get my veggies because of that and I am starting to eat more grass fed liver. It is a transition. But yes no grain, for sure (I am not no vegetables at all they are my main thing) has been proven healthy. My goodness you reading this would not be here if that wasn't true. ALL your ancestors up to 12,000 or so years ago ate little or no grain.

And the personal messages of thanks, thank you all, that helps.
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Restart: May 1, 2013 at 285. HW 340

Last edited by BillBlueEyes : 04-10-2014 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Thread cleanup
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