*Background*
We've had our dog for about four years now and according to the shelter where we got him, he's now seven years old. He's always been a very sweet, gentle dog both towards us and family and our four guinea pigs which he licks and has open access to. He has had issues from day one as we believe he was beat and/or constrained. When we first got him just a raised voice would cause him to crouch in fear and pee himself. He's gotten over that but is still very, very sensitive to our emotions. He doesn't like to be on his leash or in a small area, he gets very nervous and defensive but to my knowledge has never bitten anyone/anything. He's very excitable/has a ton of energy. You'd never know he's seven and has two bad knees (one replaced). He is also incredibly intelligent. He knows the names of the guinea pigs, has learned our routine exactly, knows each toy by name, etc.
*The problem*
For about three months now we've been taking him to the dog park. For the first month he did really well. Got along with all the dogs, never showed any signs of aggression. Around the second month mark he began displaying dominance through mounting behavior. Most of the dogs (and owners) didn't mind and he quickly rose to "top dog" of the park. This didn't seem to be a problem until the last couple weeks he's began being aggressive. When other dogs basically bother him (ie chase him or try to play when he didn't want to) he would growl or snap, but never actually bite. As if he was saying "back off." Well tonight there was a small dog there which was barking and snapping at any bigger dog that came near it. A few of the other dogs were playing very rough and decided as a group to go after the small dog. When the barking and yipping started my dog got involved and as we were all running to grab our respective dogs it ended up that my dog had his mouth around the small dog. He didn't use any pressure, the dog never cried there were no marks or anything, but what would make him do this? And to change his behavior so fast? I obviously can't take him back to the park if I know this could happen again. It just seems so out of character for him. If he accidentally hurts my he "apologizes" by snuggling up and giving me kisses.
I don't even have to read past your first sentence of your problem, but I did. This is so common it is scary. You don't mention what your dogs breed is but it could definitely play into the problem. Certain breeds are more apt to be dominating than others.
Dog parks are not the best place. The idea is wonderful; a great place to let your dog play and have fun and burn off some energy so maybe you can skip a day of a long walk. But because many people don’t train their dogs and don’t monitor their dogs (not saying you, but it is common for people to sit and read and not pay attention to the dogs while they are there). Dogs get over tired, one hour is more than enough time to play, anything more than that you can get a crank dog. Many dogs that go at the same time every day conceder the park their territory and any other dog that comes in and looks at him wrong can end up in trouble. It is not about the idea, it is about how people feel they are entitled to use the park.
One of the reasons your dog (and usually the most common) is he feels he owns the park. He has become the alpha in HIS eyes, as true to other dogs and the truth is you are going to end up with either your dog or someone else’s dog injured.
Other owners DO MIND if your dog mounts them. I personally find it offensive and in truth it makes me mad when an owner either laughs at it or watches and does nothing. People just might not say anything to you letting you believe that they don’t mind, but they do mind. One day your dog is going to try and mount the wrong dog and there will be trouble! It begins with you the owner ALLOWING your dog to be alpha dog, Instead of part of the pack. The dog park pack is a rotating one but a pack none the less.
So the reason your dog is exhibiting the aggressive behavior is because you the owner (and you are not the only one) have not stopped it at a lower level (mounting) and now because it is so obvious (other dogs neck in your dog’s mouth) now you can finally see that your dog is out of control. I think you need to stay away from the dog park, take a dog class and teach your pup to deal with the other issues (leash walking and small area problem) and you will gain some tools to help you be able to go back to the park, but until you can get the problem under control, you may find that your dog seriously injures another dog OR your dog ends up seriously injured and then you will have a whole other set of fears and phobias to deal with. Ceasar Millan’s 5 tips for the dog park 1. Make sure your dog is spayed or neutered, has all her shots, and is in good health. Under no circumstances should you bring a sick dog to a dog park!
2. Do not use the dog park as a substitute for the walk! If you drive to the park, leave your car a block away and take your dog on a vigorous walk of at least thirty-five minutes to drain some of her energy. Never take an over-excited dog to the park.
3. While at the park, don't "punch out" on your calm-assertive leadership. Be aware of your dog at all times, and take responsibility for her behavior.
4. A calm-submissive dog will not attract another dog's aggression--but an excited dog, a weak, timid dog, or an aggressive dog can become a fight-magnet.
5. Know your dog! If your dog has poor social skills, is overly fearful or is dog aggressive, or if you have not yet established your calm-assertive leadership with your dog, find a more controlled way to introduce her to the company of other dogs, such as "play dates" with one or two other dog owners.
Good luck!
I've had dogs of varying temperaments and training all my life. I had one I took to dog parks until there was a mauling (not my dog) and the blood stains on the grass convinced me that I was playing Russian Roulette.
I now have a dog with his CGC since he was a puppy, two AKC retriever test titles and working on a third, we work with a professional obedience trainer and we're going into the competition obedience ring as soon as we work out some quirks and do a little more proofing. If you count hand signals as well as words, he knows about 40 specific commands. At this moment he is on a down at my feet as the football team walks by yelling "Good Dog" and "Hey Puppy"; they are carrying boxes of donuts. He has no aggression or anxiety issues; he is a very stable, predictable dog. I would NEVER take him to a dog park. Period.
This dog park is a BAD PLACE. I hope I don't upset you, but you've certainly played a role in that. Dogs are mounting each other, snapping, chasing aggressively, and disciplining themselves AS A PACK. I'm not even a big Leader of the Pack/Be The Alpha nut, but when dogs run in a pack and decide how and when to discipline each other, you're going to have trouble--and if that pack is running on ground where some dogs know each other, and some dogs don't, and some dogs have issues and some dogs don't, and some dogs consider the park THEIR territory, and these dogs come and go... and it's a substitute for honest exercise... and the owners are oblivious...
Well, some dog or some person is going to be injured or killed. It's just a matter of time. The only way to be sure that you and your dog won't be on one end of a tragedy at this place is to STAY AWAY.
Even if you did learn how to handle your own anxious, potentially aggressive, high-strung, dominant dog with a mounting habit in that situation (and I don't doubt that you could! Dogs are amazing, and you may very well turn into a perceptive and sensitive handler, who am I to think otherwise?)well, you couldn't handle everyone else's dogs and their own behavior and training issues, too.
This is not so much an aggression issue as a dog park and education issue. This is not a change in your dog's behavior--it's a change in his environment, and aspects of his personality and training and experiences are exhibiting themselves.
I have to say I have been offended. The assumption has been made that I never stopped him and I did EVERY time. If the behavior continued I would take him home. I've been through obedience classes with him as well.
I thought these boards were supposed to be for support and advice, not criticism and blame.
When you ask for advice, sometimes the advice you get isn't the advice you want to hear. It may seem too critical or too harsh, or just completely stupid in your eyes - you kind of have to expect that when you put the request out there.
My parents maltese was ripped open in his own yard by the neighbor's friendly Golden Retriever. The Maltese "started it" by growling in defense of his territory. The Golden only took one bite, but it tore the little dog's throat. If the Golden's canine had been a half inch one way or another, the maltese would have been paralyzed from the neck down and probably would have had to be put to sleep.
You have to expect that some people are going to have pretty strong opinions and feelings about the matter. If you want advice that comes without strong opinions and even judgements attached, then do not ask real people, you might have better luck with a book.
I am sorry you think I am being critical and that offended you. The truth is that people, lots of them use parks for the wrong reason. They use it as a substitute for exercise and are surprised when there is trouble. If you read any of the dog boards and you see people asking questions about who should pay the vet bills because of a problem at a park, you have to wonder what people are doing and who they feel is responsible. Everyone is.
I use to walk with a group on the weekends. We would walk around the local reservoir. One day a dog joined us that continually mounted my dog, pinned her to the ground and would nip at her. The owner, as much as I like them as people felt that their dog had as much right to be off leash as mine, and you know what, it is true, they had just as much right to be there. I went on one more walk with this dog and then dropped out. So did the 4 other dogs in succession he chose to dominate. This dog on my walks leaned nothing from us leaving, he continued his ways and now there is no group to walk because no none wants to put up with the behavior except the owner who feels his dog has every right to be off lead and he is right, but at what cost? The point is to have the dogs socialize and now no one will socialize with him.
I can't choose for you, I only want to point out that we are all entitled to the same thing, if you see a problem it really is in your best interest to correct it or in my best interest to leave if you don't. I as a user take the same risk knowing that I have only control over my own dog and my own actions. But ultimately you still have a problem that you need to look at. What would make him do this you ask? Being allowed to get away with it it the short answer; You say that you correct him, but it sounds like the correction you have chosen is not working if he continues to do the same behavior.
My point is to caution you. It has nothing to do with obedience, it has to do with doggie manners, how your dog communicates with others. it can be a look you don't see or an action you do see. You are responsible for your dog and if you can't keep other dogs safe by keeping your dog under control, you shouldn't be at the park. Only you can decide if you are willing to take the risk of a dog park. you need to take a step back and figure out what role you play in this (have you walked your dog before the park, are you staying too long, do you have your dog on a verbal leash that you can call him off in an instant if anything bad happens at the park. I can tell you my pup, 15 months, is not reliable on a come when called and for this reason I wouldn’t take her to the park. We are working on it, but as a young dog, her brain is still growing and she needs more work on her verbal leash. And keep in mind not everyone at the park will have a trained dog, what do you do about that?
If you have a training place that you use, call them and ask them for advice, they can give you the best answer for how you have trained your dog, they may know the park and they might also have some suggestion about where you can be with other dogs in a safer place. My training place has dog romps 3 times a week. I would also suggest you look up some of the dog forums, and there are quite a few and see what others have said about dog parks, what kinds of problems they have had and come to your own decision about what is best for you and your dog.
My first (and so far only) experience at the dog park went quite well. My 2 dogs had a great time. The black one tried to mount a boxer (I stopped him) and then the boxer tried to mount him (his owner stopped him). They got along great for the rest of the hour we were there. A huge rottweiler named Genghis came and I got a bit scared. He was so cute and had great manners! He was a regular. Then an old bulldog came by and wanted to sit on the benches rather than play with the dogs. There were some standard poodles that played catch with whomever would throw the ball. Then a newfoundland arrived. All the dogs went to say hi and he growled very loudly and snapped a couple of times and his owner promptly left.
Our park is separated big dogs/small dogs which is a good thing. My yellow dog has been attacked by a small dog (while we were out on a walk and both dogs were on leash). He was bit on the chin and yelped and hid between us while this little dog snarled. We never let ourselves get close to this dog again!
While I don't go to the park any longer (too inconvenient and frankly boring for ME) we do walk the dogs a lot. I always take cues from other dog owners before allowing my dogs near their's for the usual snif-fest. Both my dogs are very friendly, but the black one, he's young and strong and will move too quickly for some dogs, so I keep him on a tight leash.
The dog park certainly is a hot topic. I’ve seen many disagreements on other forums about this very subject.
L144S - Thanks for re-posting “Caesar’s Rules”. There’s an episode of his TV show “Dog Whisperer” that focuses on dog parks. If you get the National Geographic Channel you might want to record the show, it’s interesting. Not that I always 100% agree with his techniques, but I’ve learned a lot about “dog psychology” in general by watching. I’ve also read a lot about canine behavior, I think every dog owner could benefit from some studying in that area.
I also have a rescued dog of uncertain origin, and we suspect his sever separation anxiety and somewhat lacking social skills with other dogs are at least partially attributed to whatever happened to him before he came to live with us. I’m not trying to be hyper critical, I understand where you’re coming from, but it seems your view of what’s going on here might be a little askew. We all love our dogs very much, which can cloud our vision a little. It might be helpful for you to step back and look at the situation a little differently, which is what you get when you ask strangers for advice.
I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but it seems like you’re humanizing your dog. He’s sensitive to your emotions (not that dogs don’t pick up on our emotions, they absolutely do, but “being sensitive” is putting it in human terms); “If he accidentally hurts my he "apologizes" by snuggling up and giving me kisses.” Again, humanizing. Your tone indicates that you feel bad about whatever happened to your dog in the past (beat and/or constrained), and that you idealize him now as being the smartest, most sensitive, lovely dog ever. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure your dog makes a wonderful companion and brings much joy to your household, but there is no such thing as a perfect dog. I think you’re painting a rosy picture in your mind and that’s not going to help you address any real issues. For example: “very excitable/has a ton of energy” is a nice way of saying hyperactive. It will help you to remeber that 1) your dog is an animal, not a person 2) your dog lives in the now. He doens't care any longer about what happened in the past, so it will help both of you if you can let that go and deal with your dog "in the moment".
I don’t want to go on too long here, there are many things in your post that I could speculate about, but your question has to do with the dog park. The problem is that the dog park is not a good environment for every dog, and you have no control over who decides to bring what dog there. Our dog also went through a “honeymoon” period at the dog park, but then one day he began showing odd behaviors we had never seen before, such as mounting and running in circles and barking at other dogs. As it turns out he’s got some insecurity and fear issues that come out as dominance/aggressive displays. He’s never engaged another dog in mortal combat or anything, he’s mostly putting on a big show for dogs he finds intimidating, but still it is unstable and unacceptable behavior. At the advice of the trainer we started working with we stopped taking him there and started intensively working with him on behavior modification and obedience. It’s been a lot of work and we still don’t feel comfortable taking him to big dog parks just yet. He does very well with balanced, stable dogs, but at the dog park it is a gamble as to who’s gonna show up that day. Ideally, only well socialized, polite, balanced dogs would show up at the park, and all owners would have a “verbal leash” on their dogs and be attentive to their behavior at all times. I’ve been to several dog parks in my area and some come closer to this situation than others, but like I said, it’s a gamble.
It sounds like your dog is not ready for the dog park. Take some time to help your dog become confident, calm, and balanced at all times and work on getting him to respond to your commands even in the presence of major distractions, working your way up to dog park level distractions. A dog that is not over excited and will always respond to you, the “leader”, no matter what is going on is much less likely to get into/cause problems at the dog park.
Sorry, I just wrote a small novel. In case that wasn’t enough reading for you, these are some books I’ve found very helpful: The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell (she also has a number of quick read pamphlets out there to help trouble shoot specific problems including “The Cautious Canine: How to Help Dogs Conquer their Fears” and “Feisty Fido: Help for the Leash Aggressive Dog”), Don’t Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor is a great resource for understanding positive reinforcement training, and Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson is another good one.
Good luck, I hope you find a solution that puts you and your dog on the path to a happy and peaceful existence no matter what you decide about the dog park.
I would say I am kinda guilty of humanizing - can it be a bad thing in the long run?
I mean if she does something wrong, like hurt me while playing (we call it bitey face)... I stop playing for a minute. Or if she gets a bit too excited she gets a very short (approx 1min) time out to calm down. But she is still a puppy, and I dont want to 'hurt her' by humanizing her too much?
Humanizing is what we do to them, they don't get it. It won't hurt them, it is what makes us fall in love with them and make them a part of our lives, but when you have an issue, you have to be able to remove yourself and look at it from the dogs point of view and not like it is your child.
With dogs I find reward (praise) the good, ignore the bad.
When your puppy sits on comand, come when called, does his/her business on comand, lots of good dog!!! yeah!!! make a big deal of it. If your puppy has an accident best thing to do is to take the pup out and and let it finish and clean up the mess quietly.
Dogs want to please you so if you let them know when you are happy they will try to repeat the behavior... paw is and excellent example of this, you ask for a paw, give a treat and the next thing your pup is slapping you silly for treats. why? because we think it i cute, they see you as happy and want to continue to make you happy.
Time out is fine if it is not followed or preceded be anger. don't use your crate for punishment and the number one rule with young dogs is to crate them when you can't watch them. I personally use a creat for 2-3 years (lab mature very slowly) I find that I know my dog is safe, and my house is safe from the dog.
A quick story: I was teaching a class and a woman came in and was so upset with her dog (3 days later) because she was staring to let this pup free while she was out. The dog peeled all of the wall paper off the wall (it was new which was part of the attraction) and chewed the leg of the coffee table. Her view was that the dog was mad ( a human emotion) at her for leaving it alone at home. but if you look at it from the dogs point of view. Dogs don't have the same emotion we have. It was not mad, it was bored. She had not walked the dog to the point where it was willing to sleep while she was out, exercise for your dog can make a huge difference in dog behavior. the glue on the paper smelled good and her dog at 9 months was getting some adult teeth and the wood there was perfect (in the dogs mind) for the chewing.
By the time she came back, the dog was happily napping on the couch. (where it was not supose to be either)
so in answer to your question, humanizing is fine at the right time, I love to snuggle with my pup and play game, BUT I also have to see things from the dogs view and what would be going through her mind in a given situation. She is a valued member of our family, I take her everywhere and frankly spend more time with the dog than the kids these days while they are in school, but she is not my child, we go away, I leave her with friends for the day or night so she can be familar with being other places and is realxed about any situation I put her in because she trust me.
Ok enough rambling from me, I don't want to scare people off
Her time out is never done in her crate, and we do crate her when we cant watch her. And I NEVER yell at her, sometimes I raise my voice a bit - but I am working on that.
So other then... letting her on the couch and sleeping in the bed and kissing her... I am okay! haha
If she is young, and it is completly your choice, especially idf she is small, gives her an equal statis to you.
Funiture and beds are a personal choice. We for example will snuggle in bed, when she is invited but Dixie sleeps in her crate. She is allowed on the couch in the family room, but not in the living room.
A stern low voice is what you need to make a point.yelling i something they don't get.
How old is your pup?
We did the crate thing at first. But I decided I wanted her in the bed as much as she wanted to be there. She still likes her crate tho - but does cry now if we are home and she is in there (but that is only my own fault) - she will go in there on her own tho. My boyfriend works graveyards, so I like the comapny in bed. Him and I really talked about it and decided we were ready to have her there for the rest of her life - or deal - with re-training her later to go in the crate.
But when it comes down it... I want her there, cant sleep with out her! And there is nothing better then he waking me up to snuggle even closer! haha
It is great if it works for you, BUT I would also encourage you to put her in her crate while you are home, while you make dinner, do chores etc. It gives her a safe placeto be if lets say an exterminator comes, someone comes to repair some thing or if you drop somethng on the floor that needs tobe cleaned up. Later down the road if you have kids, you may need it, or
Aggression Question *Long*
