Weight Loss Support - Water WARNING




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butterfly_dreams
07-06-2006, 06:03 PM
Some of you probably already know this, but for those of you that don't, listen up... Do NOT drink icy water after jogging or any other strainuous exercise especially in hot weather. It was on the news in my area (Georgia) that someone did that and he had a heart attack that killed him. The cold water shocked his heart and killed him immedeatly. So after exercise or working outdoors drink cool water not icy.


butterfly_dreams
07-06-2006, 06:20 PM
Yeah that is scary. I can't count as many times I have drank freezing water after harsh activities, but gladly it didn't affect me. But now i'm very careful on how I drink water.

Cassie501107
07-06-2006, 07:28 PM
Wow, really?! I had NO idea! Thanks for the warning.:^:


rebelridergirl
07-06-2006, 07:40 PM
Thank you so much for the warning. I had no idea, either. Scary!

fitgal2
07-06-2006, 08:02 PM
I am always hesitant when I hear things like this...no one know what his condition was before he started running do they?...was he over weight and this was his first run??? did he have an unknown heart condition?

Heather
07-06-2006, 09:56 PM
I'm hesitant when I hear things like this too. I don't know anything about this particular situation, but if I was a real concern for the general population I would think it would be more "out there" and discussed.

We often here about two events that are close together in time and assume that one causes the other, but in reality it's very difficult to establish causality.

Gardenwife
07-06-2006, 11:10 PM
Wow, I've never heard of this. I looked around a bit online and don't see anything addressing a correlation between the two or disproving one. You'd think it would be more publicized. I'm anxious to see if anyone has links to more info about it.

Gardenwife
07-06-2006, 11:19 PM
I found a little more info:
Ask the Tufts Experts (http://healthletter.tufts.edu/issues/2003-08/asktufts.html)

In a newsgroup posting (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.cats.health+behav/msg/7155624b6c02c5b3?dmode=source), I read the following. I do not know the poster and can't vouch for her profession or expertise:

As I've stated before, the esophagus in humans and animals (mammals) runs directly behind the heart. If the animal (be it human or cat) has been exercising, is hot, has health problems related to their heart or is just generally not well, running cold water (around 3-4 degrees celcius) next to a muscle which HAS to work at 37 degrees celcius, which is probably hotter due to heat, can cause the muscle to shut down. Seeing as how I can't think of any animal that can live when it's heart isn't beating, I think that would be a good reason not to make the heart stop beating.

As for benefits of ice cold water in humans; studies have shown that water between 10-15 degrees (a little warmer than your fridge) is absorbed much faster into the body than both colder water (ice cold or from fridge) and warmer water (as in coffee or other hot drinks).

BerkshireGrl
07-06-2006, 11:28 PM
Eeee... Holy cow!

Luckily I keep my Brita water on the counter and drink it mostly room temp, or with 1-2 ice cubes melted in... but then I'm a wuss with "sensitive" teeth caused by bad brushing technique (Up and down, never back and forth, hehehe!) and ice cold water is like getting my teeth scraped :fr:

almost there
07-06-2006, 11:43 PM
Whether this person had a heart condition or not, I'm NOT chancing it. Thanks for sharing Butterfly Dreams. Better to be safe than sorry

Sakai
07-07-2006, 12:20 AM
My dad talked to me about this. He said it also causes stomach cramps. I've hand many of those from having ice water right after working out in the heat. (arizona heat even @_@)

Heather
07-07-2006, 12:40 AM
I guess I wonder just how common it is. I mean, do more people die in car accidents every year than die from drinking cold water after running? But just because people die in car crashes doesn't stop me from driving my car, because even that's a rare event. Most everything can kill you, right?

4boys4me
07-07-2006, 01:02 AM
In highschool, our coaches for cheerleading and dance team would not let us drink ice water during or immediatly after practice due to fainting or stomach cramps. Doesn't mean you can't have ice water later?
I've also heard though, that your body works a lot harder to warm up the ice water you drink, therfore helping in speeding up your metabolism. Anyone else hear that?

carolshmarol
07-07-2006, 01:05 AM
Whether this is a common occurance or not, the fact that it even happened once tells you that it is possible. Perhaps not probable but it is possible and so why flirt with death? Thank you butterfly for this information. Who knows how many people could have been spared the pain of this, being scared, or even death.

sli
07-07-2006, 02:55 AM
Wow, thank you for the heads up. I always put my water in the freezer an hour before the tredmill so that it is half frozen by the time I was done...Who would have thunk it...Thank you again!

Heather
07-07-2006, 08:58 AM
I did try to find more information on the case that butterfly dreams mentioned, but my google search was a bust. I did find one mention on a blog of someone commenting that they saw someone collapse of a heart attack right after drinking cold water and the paramedics said it could have been a contributing cause, but no other info that really helped put this in context.

Certainly everyone do what you want. It probably won't hurt not to drink icy water after exercising. And maybe it will help. I just think this kind of scary information provided without a lot of context can end up doing more harm than good. Maybe someone will decide, after a workout not to drink water because it's too cold and then have issues as a result of not hydrating properly.

I often hear people on this site say that they no longer listen to research evidence because it all contradicts eath other so why bother. But then we will listen to scary anecdotes and think nothing of it. Maybe it's the researcher in me, but I try to understand where evidence and information comes from. Sometimes the research evidence is contradictory yes, but not so much if you start to understand how the research process works and how it is often mis-reported by the media...

The problem is that anecdotes and stories are less reliable, but because they are so vivid we listen and make our decisions based on them. (and there is a lot of research in psychology that makes this point).

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now. I don't mean to offend any one. It's just that I try to teach my students not to simply rely on anecdotes/stories when they make decisions because of their unreliability.

One final disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor and certainly don't want it to sound like I am dispensing any kind of medical advice at all!

midwife
07-07-2006, 09:15 AM
You can vagal and die pooping too.

Heather
07-07-2006, 09:16 AM
You can vagal and die pooping too.


Midwife -- heh. Yes, I found that information online too!

Misti in Seattle
07-07-2006, 09:40 AM
Certainly everyone do what you want. It probably won't hurt not to drink icy water after exercising. And maybe it will help. I just think this kind of scary information provided without a lot of context can end up doing more harm than good. Maybe someone will decide, after a workout not to drink water because it's too cold and then have issues as a result of not hydrating properly.


I agree completely! I have learned to take anything I read or hear with a BIG grain of salt and check out the facts before I believe it. :) I just did a small amount of Internet research on this since I have to leave for work soon but I too did not find anything believable or factual.

But like you, I am not medical personnel either and certainly not trying to convince anyone it isn't true. I just personally share your opinion and don't necessarily believe everything I read on the Internet. :)

And LOL I read that about the pooping too. :) Be careful, everybody! :lol:

midwife
07-07-2006, 09:46 AM
I am medical personnel (the midwife in me chokes at this, but it is true! I am educated and licensed and insured...I even have my very own DEA number) and this never came up, either in nursing school or in my primary care graduate level classes.

Is is theoretically possible? I suppose so. It is theoretically possible that an embryo can implant on a spleen and grow to term. It is theoretically possible that my ceiling might crash down on me as I type this message.

Wear sunscreen, use condoms, wear your seatbelts and never drive drunk. Those things are far more likely to prevent death and dismemberment than avoiding ice cold water after exercising.

And please, poop everyday, no matter how many old men have keeled over on the toilet.

Heather
07-07-2006, 09:49 AM
And please, poop everyday, no matter how many old men have keeled over on the toilet.

:rofl:

Misti in Seattle
07-07-2006, 09:58 AM
And please, poop everyday, no matter how many old men have keeled over on the toilet.

LOL I was getting worried for a while there!!! :rofl: Hey we need a better icon for this! :lol: Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

Gardenwife
07-07-2006, 11:51 AM
Hey we need a better icon for this!

There are some good ones!

:jig: :bomb: :whoo: :sumo:

You just have to picture them on their commodes.

:goodluck:

Sunnigummi
07-07-2006, 11:52 AM
I thought the heart has a covering called a pericardium that besides limiting the stretch of the heart (from filling with blood) protects it from such situations. I've had icy water after working out but I think it has to do with internal body heat. If you're overweight, you have more heat than someone lighter than you so that would make the temperature difference more apparent in the case of the overweight individual. I'll look up my physiology books and see what I can find about the heart or ask my advisor - he's good with this stuff. :)

Also another disclaimer - this is just my opinion, I don't have a medical degree. Take everything with a grain of salt, like Misti said.

magdie
07-07-2006, 12:54 PM
I have a question for you. I often throw up after my cardio workout and my DH says it's from drinking water during my exercise. He says if I have an empty stomach and drink a lot of water while I'm on the eliptical, the water will make me feel sick afterwards. Is that true? Is drinking water during or immediately after my workout a reason for feeling sick? I ususally just throw up water since I don't have any food in my belly.
Thanks!

Beach Patrol
07-07-2006, 02:43 PM
I know it's possible, but it's RARE. No I don't have a medical degree in any form, shape or manner, but I was a lifeguard for a long while when I was in college, and our water instructor stressed the importance of not getting overheated (easy to do when you're in the hot sun for 8-10-12 hours!!) and if you DO get overheated, drink tepid or just cool water - never ice cold.

When you think about it, it makes sense. After all, haven't you ever taken a little bit too big a bite/lick of ice cream & it went down your throat & suddenly you felt the cold pain in your chest? That's what's happening.

Yup, makes sense! ;) :D

Beach Patrol
07-07-2006, 02:47 PM
I have a question for you. I often throw up after my cardio workout and my DH says it's from drinking water during my exercise. He says if I have an empty stomach and drink a lot of water while I'm on the eliptical, the water will make me feel sick afterwards. Is that true? Is drinking water during or immediately after my workout a reason for feeling sick? I ususally just throw up water since I don't have any food in my belly.
Thanks!

That could definitely be what's causing your reguritation. You should have a light snack (preferably protein/carbs) about an hour or so before you work out - something like a banana and a couple of peanut butter crackers or a couple slices of cheese and half an apple. If you're exercising on a totally empty stomach, you're probably not getting the full benefits of your exercise routine. And as hard as we work at exercising, you know we all want the full benefits of our efforts!! :D

Gardenwife
07-07-2006, 03:06 PM
Seems like there are always a few people who get sick when exercising -- the trainers on The Biggest Loser and other fitness shows say it's common.

BerkshireGrl
07-07-2006, 09:39 PM
... Certainly everyone do what you want. It probably won't hurt not to drink icy water after exercising. And maybe it will help. ....

Well, Lillybelle is a RN, and it happened to her, and her doc thought it was a vagal response (though her previous post in this thread now appears to be gone? *Twilight Zone music*)

Anyway, I think it's a fair warning that deserves to be shared. Thank you, Butterfly :)

There is info out there that I found with Google, including medical studies that document a mild drop in blood pressure and heart rate when drinking just room temp water. Ice water has indeed been found to cause fainting in people, or worse, depending on their health and underlying issues.

There is a natural response in the body to submerging the face in ice water - it stops breathing. It's not so far a stretch to say that taking a big ol' gulp of ice water can shock the insides too, including the heart.

Witness this effect on a boy with heart problems. I bolded some of it.

From the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology:

http://www.amjforensicmedicine.com

Sudden Death After a Cold Drink: Case Report.

American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology. 20(1):37-39, March 1999.
Burke, Allen P. M.D.; Afzal, M. Nasir M.D.; Barnett, Diane Scala M.D.; Virmani, Renu M.D.

Abstract:
We report a case of sudden cardiac death in a 12-year-old boy after rapid ingestion of a frozen slurry drink. The cause of death was determined to be a cardiac arrhythmia secondary to a previously undiagnosed cardiac rhabdomyoma with associated myocardial scarring. Ingestion of cold liquids has been associated with syncope ["fainting", BG], but not sudden cardiac death. In this case, bradycardia induced by cold-induced vasovagal reflex may have precipitated the terminal arrhythmia. Ingestion of cold liquids should be considered a potential trigger for fatal cardiac arrhythmias in patients with underlying heart disease.

(C) 1999 Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, Inc.


So, what to do?

Here is a good article from the NY Times on how much water to drink (and what temp)... and it has a recipe for homemade Sport Drink :D

http://www.nytimes.com/specials/women/warchive/960612_1274.html

Here is a bit of it:
Ideally, two hours before an activity, you should drink about 16 ounces (two 8-ounce cups or a half-liter) of water. Any excess will be lost through urination before the event. But if you do not have to urinate within an hour, drink another 8 ounces. If you cannot drink water two hours in advance, drink 8 to 16 ounces before starting your activity. In either case, continue to drink water throughout the activity, consuming 6 to 12 ounces every 15 to 20 minutes, especially when exercising in the heat. To foster maximum consumption and rapid absorption into the blood, the water should be cool -- from 40 to 50 degrees Fahrenheit -- but not ice cold.

And for magdie, who throws up after drinking water as she works out on her elliptical:

Maybe it's just from all the water bouncing around in your stomach? :) I noticed that when I exercise on a full stomach (food OR water), I get nauseated too. Maybe try those NY Times tips? Good luck!

Heather
07-07-2006, 11:17 PM
Sarah -- Thanks for posting the information. It seems that even in the case you found, they weren't sure of the cause: "cold-induced vasovagal reflex may have precipitated the terminal arrhythmia". And the other literature doesn't implicate death. However, as you noted, I did say it probably wouldn't hurt and might even help to not drink icy water. That seems to be what it boils down to.

My main concern was that people would read about this and perhaps cause themselves worse harm trying to avoid it because of their fears. I think sometimes we don't fear the things we should, and pay too much attention to rare occurences.

Also, I still stand by my claim that as humans, we are very prone to pay attention to vivid information when we make decisions, even if it isn't accurate. Psychologists call this the "vividness effect". And the case that butterfly dreams posted (and poor thing, I think we scared her off! If so, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent) seemed to be that very thing -- a vivid case, and without a lot of context to boot.

Again, thanks for looking all of this up. It can take a lot of work to be well informed!

BTW, I LOVE the Berkshires! I would love to live in that part of the country again!

lilybelle
07-07-2006, 11:45 PM
I purposefully deleted my threads because certain people had became too argumentative. That wasn't the initial intention of this thread. It was to inform people of a potential health risk.

Gardenwife
07-08-2006, 12:08 AM
Lily, I didn't see people being arguementative - they were just expressing that they'd not heard of it and voicing their opinions. Your first-person experience is valuable here and I wish you'd reconsider removing the post that told what happened to you.

lilybelle
07-08-2006, 12:20 AM
If anyone has any doubt about this they should ask their physician.

Heather
07-08-2006, 12:50 AM
I purposefully deleted my threads because certain people had became too argumentative. That wasn't the initial intention of this thread. It was to inform people of a potential health risk.

I'm sorry Lily, I wasn't trying to be argumentative (I'm pretty sure I'm one of the people you're referring to) and certainly did not want you to delete what you had said! In fact, I deliberately tried to use language that was not inflammatory and apologize if you took it that way.

And then, yes, I got on my soapbox. Some of these are issues that I teach about every day as a psychology professor and sometimes the professor part leaks out here. I guess I do see this as a community concerned about education to some extent, and sometimes I see an opportunity to talk about things I do know something about, though I actually do try to keep this part of me in check.

However, all that being said, I guess I’m wondering (trying not to be inflammatory) if we’ve demonstrated that the health risk we’re talking about is death.

The initial poster (poor butterfly dreams) had a vivid story about a man who died of a heart attack, and made a specific causal statement (the heart attack was caused by drinking ice cold water). I tried to find that story to get more specific information, but couldn’t find it online.

Your own vivid experience (if I recall) was about fainting after drinking really cold water, an effect that is corroborated by the literature that Sarah found. And you said that your doctor thought it was a vagal response. But I don't recall that post directly linking the drinking of ice cold water to death. (And I might be wrong about that).

And now the thread has 2 very vivid anecdotes that people use to come to the conclusion that their lives may be in danger if they drink ice cold water. But in fact, the health risk of which people were afraid of (dying) didn’t seem to be supported by either post.

So, maybe that is argumentative, but I thought of it more as raising an issue to debate, and trying to use language that didn’t inflame (and perhaps I was not successful). I saw a claim I was unsure about and rather than let it go, I raised questions about it.

BerkshireGrl
07-08-2006, 12:51 AM
I doubt that people are going to start fearing water as a result of this thread. If they are, that's just, um, SILLY ;)

We are mostly made up of water. We need lots of it to survive. It's good stuff. Drink up! :)

But drinking it when it is very cold:
1) it's not absorbed as quickly by the body
2) it may cause shock to the body and varying degrees of that shock

If you are a huge fan of ice cold water, just realize that it could contain a risk of bad effects. That's all.

I suppose if I spent several more days digging through the PubMed literature and scanning more of the Google results, I could get more data, but why? It's not a 100% cause and effect. Beyond poison/toxic gases, there are few things we can ingest that will kill us quickly.

Numerically what is the risk with ice water? Probably not high or yeah, we'd have seen it on fitness sites, read about it in magazines, etc.

But it's an easily avoidable risk, so what the hey?

Heather
07-08-2006, 12:54 AM
If anyone has any doubt about this they should ask their physician.

I agree.

But I am still interested in finding out if this happens, how often and to whom (who would be at risk). And it may be unlikely that my physician will have that specific information.

BerkshireGrl
07-08-2006, 01:03 AM
... I am still interested in finding out if this happens, how often and to whom (who would be at risk). And it may be unlikely that my physician will have that specific information.

There's the net... there's medical libraries... and then there's the docs. Docs are probably the best first line of inquiry.

Like others have said, medicine is tricky. Sometimes it's hard to say X absolutely caused Y.

But if MDs say:
"Ingestion of cold liquids should be considered a potential trigger for fatal cardiac arrhythmias in patients with underlying heart disease" then I'll take that and go, hmm, do *I* have underlying heart disease?

Who knows? I could. I've had cholesterol over 300 before. I'm not "in shape". Should I start chugging ice water and see what happens? Nah, think I'll pass.

I'm sure there are more cases out there for those who want to dig for them. But I think that the warning was just a shout-out to be careful and mindful, not a Chicken Little freak-out... and even though it was posted without a lot of back-up context, it still is valid as a general piece of info.

Misti in Seattle
07-08-2006, 01:49 AM
There are some good ones!


LOL ===cracking up=== those are great!

Lily, I certainly was not trying to be argumentative either; to me online discussion is to share various opinions. If everyone just agrees with everyone else, it quickly gets pretty boring. Anyway, sorry if it came across that way; that was not my intention. And if there is more factual information I too would really like to see it, with specifics. I have not been able to find any, though admittedly have not spent massive amounts of time searching.

butterfly_dreams
07-08-2006, 02:19 AM
LOL. No ya'll didn't scare me off, Wyllen.

Misti in Seattle
07-08-2006, 02:31 AM
LOL. No ya'll didn't scare me off, Wyllen.

Somehow I get the feeling you don't scare too easily. :)

butterfly_dreams
07-08-2006, 02:32 AM
Didn't mean to cause a debate here. lol. I just heard that some guy drank ice water after working outdoors all day and he had a heart attack from drinking it. That's all know. I have heard a story like this before so after the second time of hearing about ice water I thought I'd warn and inform some of ya'll. :)

butterfly_dreams
07-08-2006, 02:33 AM
lol. yeah I try to be all that I can be. lol.

oliviaCAN
07-08-2006, 03:04 AM
wow, thanx for the warning, that is sooo freaky...i never knew that, i love drinking icey cold water too...im gonna keep that in mind for now on.

Misti in Seattle
07-08-2006, 09:41 AM
Butterfly, personally I considered the "debate" to be all in good spirits and a good discussion! I think it is great that you brought it up... and it sent me off googling for more info. :)

Heather
07-08-2006, 09:58 AM
butterfly dreams -- I'm so glad to hear no one scared you off! :)

I always just ask a lot of questions, all the time. And this time I just did it publicly. More than once. Usually I just ask my living room, and it isn't very imformative... :D

butterfly_dreams
07-08-2006, 12:33 PM
ok. Thanks ya'll. Discussion is still open if you want to talk. It's very interesting what you guys have to say about this. hehehe.