Does it Work? - Anyone use Diet Pills?




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anske
09-19-2005, 10:30 AM
Hello All,

Frist of all I know diet pills are not the answer, But I took a diet Pill and lost 90 pounds in a year. My starting weight was 260 pounds. I exercised alot and ate smaller portions. The diet pill I was taking was Phentermine. But I went through my doctor. I am new here and would love to here from you.

Anske :)


MrsJim
09-19-2005, 11:37 AM
Hello All,

Frist of all I know diet pills are not the answer, But I took a diet Pill and lost 90 pounds in a year. My starting weight was 260 pounds. I exercised alot and ate smaller portions. The diet pill I was taking was Phentermine. But I went through my doctor. I am new here and would love to here from you.

Anske :)

Welcome to 3FC :)

While this forum does not advocate/endorse the use of diet pills, we have had a few members who used prescription diet pills under a doctors' supervision.

Here's one thread for example - Have you heard of Phentermine? (http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52414)

MichelleRae, one of our mods, has been using Meridia under her doctor's supervision - I'll see if I can get her to add her two cents. ;)

Jennifer 3FC
09-19-2005, 11:18 PM
Like MrsJim said, we're not the biggest fan of pills! All over the counter pills should be avoided. Some prescription pills are ok - I work with a man that has been trying to lose weight at least as long as I've known him - about 10 years. With Phentermine, he's lost about 50 pounds and has about another 75 to go. He has monthly appointments with a nutritionist, and is evaluated by his Dr on a regular basis. I prefer not to take them but that's just me. :)

Congrats on your weight loss!


MichelleRae
09-19-2005, 11:27 PM
Hi there!!

You are correct diet pills are not the answer but as my doctor told me "sometimes your body needs a little help" I've taken Meridia off and on for a year and a half now and it has helped immensley but the problem I run into is that the pill really does a lot of work for me and once I stop taking it my weight creeps back on. I'm currently off of the pill trying to lose weight all by myself and even though I have to push myself pretty hard I've finally decided to just do it and do it all by myself although I would love the help of a pill but for me it's time to go it alone lol.

Congratulations on your success!!

anske
09-20-2005, 12:29 AM
Thank you for your replys. I know that Diet Pills are not the answer but I am still proud of what i have done. The Phentermine just help me not want to eat all the time. I am now on my own and trying to loose weight. And I am glad to have a support group. I have joined many and no one will respond to me. So thank you for that. When I was on Phentermine I did it through my doctor. I went in every month to be checked. I wouldn't do it if my Doc said it was not ok. I didn't just take a pill I exercised 5 days a week on my Toney Little Gazelle. I worked my self to 5 miles a day. It was hard work. But now I am at a stand still and need a boost. Thanks

Juche
10-01-2005, 06:18 PM
I'm new here so I don't really understand the 'diet pills are not the answer' atmosphere people here subscribe to. I personally don't subscribe to that idea at all, peopel have tried weight loss by willpower alone w/o changing biochemistry for 100 years and it has failed miserably. There is some good info on current prescription, developing and OTC pills at this website. However it is subscription so you can only get a basic idea.

http://www.obesity-news.com/otc.htm

Amarantha2
10-02-2005, 02:35 AM
I'm new here so I don't really understand the 'diet pills are not the answer' atmosphere people here subscribe to. I personally don't subscribe to that idea at all, peopel have tried weight loss by willpower alone w/o changing biochemistry for 100 years and it has failed miserably. There is some good info on current prescription, developing and OTC pills at this website. However it is subscription so you can only get a basic idea.

http://www.obesity-news.com/otc.htm

Thanks for the link, Juche. Good site.

I think you make some good points and I personally don't "subscribe" to anyone's "atmosphere" :) ... I admire anyone who is trying to fight obesity whether by responsible use of medication or not. But I just wanted to note, that the idea that all or most people have failed miserably at weight loss by willpower alone just isn't, in my opinion, proven. Lots of people, in my opinion, including me, have lost weight and kept it off without the aid of medication.

Suzanne 3FC
10-02-2005, 03:23 AM
I think one problem is that a lot of people are not following the right diet, so they find it more difficult to stick to. Then they think they have a problem and need help in the form of diet pills. This can happen if you try to diet too strictly, follow a very restrictive diet plan, etc. The most successful diet plan isn't even one you'll find in a diet book. Most people that lose weight and keep it off did so by doing their own thing. They cut back portion sizes, increase exercise, and the weight just comes off. Slow weight loss is OK, as long as it's healthy and safe. And exercise is a natural appetite suppressant :)

The vast majority of people I know that have been successful did not take any medication, either OTC or prescription. I only know two people that have taken phentermine to help them lose weight and they had bad results because they could not maintain their weight loss or didn't have the confidence to eat without it. One woman had to stop taking it due to health complications, but then she regained almost all of her weight because she had never had the chance to learn how to diet properly. She didn't have the same level of independence, or self control that comes from within because she didn't have to develop it. In my personal opinion, I think that if a diet drug is called for, it should be prescription only, and that it should be used as a jumpstart (if called for) but should not be used longer than a few weeks at most.

Amarantha2
10-02-2005, 10:12 AM
In my opinion, you are right about the prescription point, Suzanne ... and the jumpstart nature of the thing. Also, in my opinion, this kind of intervention should be used mostly in the case where obesity has become an imminent life-threatening event, otherwise there might be time to wait, take it a step at a time with lifestyle changes (e.g., diet and exercise).

In my opinion, it just takes a long time to achieve major weight loss and maintenance of the loss. So anyone thinking of medication and not being in danger of dying immediately (sorry to sound gloomy but IMO dying is sometimes a result of severe obesity as I have reason to know) could maybe, with the guidance of a medical professional, afford to take a slower approach to working their chosen program, because in the long run, in my opinion, it IS possible to lose weight by lifestyle changes and frankly willpower (won'tpower in my case). It just takes time, failing and coming back and doing it again and again and again and again and ...

LovesBassets
10-02-2005, 04:06 PM
peopel have tried weight loss by willpower alone w/o changing biochemistry for 100 years and it has failed miserably.[/url]

I'm certainly not trying to create an argument here or anything, but I do want to add another perspective. So please just take this as someone else's opinion as shaped by her experience, nothing more.

Our society seems to focus on the "failure" stories, and the sad end result is that many people give up trying to lose weight before they ever even begin. Or they go to extreme lengths to lose the weight and end up -- many times -- putting their health at risk.

Because you are 100% right, Juche. "Willpower alone" is not enough.

IMO, PATIENCE is key. Too many people want the weight off NOW, and aren't fully prepared for the length of the process. The media bombards us with TV shows showing glamorous women who weigh 110 lbs, and then a commercial comes on promising us X pounds lost in just "a few short weeks" if we buy their (usually overpriced and often highly-processed) product.

Losing weight is one of the hardest things I have ever done. It takes much more than willpower. If willpower alone could get us anywhere, I don't think ANYONE would be overweight (or in debt to their credit card company for that matter).

"Willpower" implies that we have power. And we do. But not 24/7. By our very nature, humans have times of weakness. And if your (or my) times of weakness tend to be when food is in the equation, then we're going to cave in eventually. People with food issues can't avoid food for life like a recovering alcoholic. We can't say "I'm 3 months food-free." Food is always there, and the human will is simply not always strong enough to say "no" when we know we should.

Losing weight takes extreme patience and stamina for the long-haul, hard-core planning of meals and exercise, and (for me at least) some pretty significant soul-searching and mental/psychological shifts regarding one's relationship with food. It means controlling your environment in regard to food. It takes supreme determination in the face of a society that is designed to make you fail -- walk down any food aisle in any grocery store (LOL, other than the produce aisle) and ask yourself how many products on those shelves are packed with sugar, seven-syllable additives, and contain basically nothing more than highly-processed ingredients? And how many actually contain (marginal) amounts of what your body wants and needs? Willpower alone will not get you in your car on a snowy Saturday morning to sweat yourself silly at the gym. It just won't. Believe me. What will? Determination, belief in yourself, HABIT, and just plain persistence. When Nike picked "Just Do It!" as their slogan, they weren't kidding.

I haven't failed miserably :D . And there are tons of ladies and gents on 3FC who have had magnificent success! This week I've noticed more threads announcing "So-and-So Made it to ONEderland!" than I've ever seen before. Just cruise through some of the threads and look at some tickers...you'll be AMAZED by the amount of weight people have lost through better food choices and exercise.

IMO, UNLESS someone has a medical condition that effects their ability to properly metabolize certain nutrients and/or that limits their ability to utilize stored energy (fat) and/or has some other actual MEDICAL weight-loss limiting disorder, then they can lose weight. I believe that if an otherwise healthy person can GAIN the weight naturally, then they can lose the weight naturally. It's simple math. Calories in, calories out. But "simple math" DOESN'T mean it's a simple process. It is a tough and trying road. But it CAN be done; people all over the country do it every single day -- and the majority of us do it by eating less, by choosing better foods, and by exercising.

Just the opinion of someone who HASN'T "failed miserably," but who still wishes every single day that willpower was enough. :)

Amarantha2
10-02-2005, 04:54 PM
Kate, I agree with all your points! :) When I mention "willpower" (or "won'tpower"), I really mean all the things you list ... I guess I mean the power of my will to continue to do all the things I need to do to succeed, like eating right and exercising, over and over and over again and doing it over again and again when the willpower fails. I don't mean some magical state where I am able to resist all temptation to overeat or to eat the wrong food or whatever. If I resist 70 percent of the time, I'm doing good.

That said, I'd have to add that I did find it quite easy to lose the original weight; I'm not sure why that was, but it was a breeze because I didn't cut cals to the point of suffering and I enjoyed every step of the journey as the weight just dropped off.

It's at the lower weights that I found myself having problems and wishing for "willpower" of the magical variety. The real "willpower" is about commitment, patience and developing a habit of try-try-again when backsliding happens ... which it invariably does, as you say.

Juche
10-02-2005, 05:13 PM
I'm certainly not trying to create an argument here or anything, but I do want to add another perspective. So please just take this as someone else's opinion as shaped by her experience, nothing more.

Our society seems to focus on the "failure" stories, and the sad end result is that many people give up trying to lose weight before they ever even begin. Or they go to extreme lengths to lose the weight and end up -- many times -- putting their health at risk.

Because you are 100% right, Juche. "Willpower alone" is not enough.

IMO, PATIENCE is key. Too many people want the weight off NOW, and aren't fully prepared for the length of the process. The media bombards us with TV shows showing glamorous women who weigh 110 lbs, and then a commercial comes on promising us X pounds lost in just "a few short weeks" if we buy their (usually overpriced and often highly-processed) product.

Losing weight is one of the hardest things I have ever done. It takes much more than willpower. If willpower alone could get us anywhere, I don't think ANYONE would be overweight (or in debt to their credit card company for that matter).

"Willpower" implies that we have power. And we do. But not 24/7. By our very nature, humans have times of weakness. And if your (or my) times of weakness tend to be when food is in the equation, then we're going to cave in eventually. People with food issues can't avoid food for life like a recovering alcoholic. We can't say "I'm 3 months food-free." Food is always there, and the human will is simply not always strong enough to say "no" when we know we should.

Losing weight takes extreme patience and stamina for the long-haul, hard-core planning of meals and exercise, and (for me at least) some pretty significant soul-searching and mental/psychological shifts regarding one's relationship with food. It means controlling your environment in regard to food. It takes supreme determination in the face of a society that is designed to make you fail -- walk down any food aisle in any grocery store (LOL, other than the produce aisle) and ask yourself how many products on those shelves are packed with sugar, seven-syllable additives, and contain basically nothing more than highly-processed ingredients? And how many actually contain (marginal) amounts of what your body wants and needs? Willpower alone will not get you in your car on a snowy Saturday morning to sweat yourself silly at the gym. It just won't. Believe me. What will? Determination, belief in yourself, HABIT, and just plain persistence. When Nike picked "Just Do It!" as their slogan, they weren't kidding.

I haven't failed miserably :D . And there are tons of ladies and gents on 3FC who have had magnificent success! This week I've noticed more threads announcing "So-and-So Made it to ONEderland!" than I've ever seen before. Just cruise through some of the threads and look at some tickers...you'll be AMAZED by the amount of weight people have lost through better food choices and exercise.

IMO, UNLESS someone has a medical condition that effects their ability to properly metabolize certain nutrients and/or that limits their ability to utilize stored energy (fat) and/or has some other weight-loss limiting disorder, then they can lose weight. I believe that if a person (who doesn't have a specific medical condition) can GAIN the weight naturally, then they can lose the weight naturally. It's simple math. Calories in, calories out. It CAN be done; people all over the country do it every single day -- and the majority of us do it by eating less, by choosing better foods, and by exercising.

Just the opinion of someone who HASN'T "failed miserably," but who still wishes every single day that willpower was enough. :)

Fair enough. I have no problem with your personal view and don't want to start an argument either. But in my personal view, obesity is a like mental illness, say depression. If people try hard enough then a small percentage can overcome depression by mental effort alone. But it is better to focus on medical and pharmacological cures that work for 80-90% of people that don't require so much effort.

Another problem I see with the mental effort solution is that people have alot going on in their lives. They have families, careers, financial issues, hobbies, sexual relationships, etc. The last thing they need is to make weight control another major factor in life. In her book 'making a case for yourself' Susan Estrich says to lose weight and keep it off (maybe 30 pounds, which is only 100,000 calories at the end of the day) you have to make it a full time job, no different than being a full time mother or employee. But someone who is a mother and employee already doesn't need the extra stress and workload of being a full time dieter. It is better to just take a pill and get it over with so you can devote your life to the more important things in life like family, friends, philantrophy, hobbies, education, etc.

But at the end of the day everyone makes their own decisions. Before antipsychotics hit the market therapy alone was making little headway in turning extreme schizophrenics into functional members of society. There was therapy galore, but not until we changed the biochemistry of mental illness via medication so that we gave schizophrenics a biochemistry that more closely matched that of 'normal' members of society did we start seeing major improvements. The number of people hospitalized for schizophrenia dropped around 80% from what I remember after antipsychotics hit the market. The beneficial effects of therapy were minor compared to medication and I feel dieting is the same way. Mental effort will work for a minority over the long run, but only if they make it a central focus in life and only a small percentage will be able to do that. I'd prefer a solution that frees up mental energy to devote to other life goals (career, family) and that has a much higher success rate.

Even several of the methods of lifestyle changes that are promoted to lose weight are just natural drugs.

here is a short list of lifestyle/dietary changes that are becoming popular because studies show they help with weight loss.

Eat a high fiber breakfast
eat a high fiber diet in general
get adequate sleep
eat alot of dairy

However fiber just makes you feel full and stabalizes blood glucose levels, no different than some diabetes or diet medications. Adequate sleep promotes healthy levels of ghrelin and leptin. Dairy supposedly just inhibits calcitrol levels. IMO, trying to get adequate sleep to lose weight vs taking a ghrelin blocker (when they invent one) to lose weight are no different, the end result is the same. But people get to that result via different methods.

So my view is that people are already trying to do what drugs do. They are engaging in lifestyle changes (high fiber diet, eating dairy, getting enough sleep) that do the same thing to their body that diet drugs do. They change the internal biochemistry to make their bodies a little thinner.

I myself have lost 50 pounds and have little problem keeping it off these last two years with just lifestyle changes (better diet, high fiber breakfast, more protein, more sleep, more exercise). But everything beyond 50 pounds requies far too much effort to be worth it if I had to use mental effort alone. I'd rather just take some pills and devote my time and energy to school and family rather than trying to control my appetite.

LovesBassets
10-02-2005, 06:42 PM
Hi Juche,

First off, congrats on your 50 lb weight loss! AND congrats on 2 years as a maintainer! :) Those are both fantastic achievements.

And you bring up some really interesting points. I have Bipolar II and I've been on meds for about 8 years now, and you're right that mental work is generally not the solution for depressive or other mood disorders. My life without my meds would be unbearable and I know (from years of attempting it) that all the determination, persistence, soul-searching, etc. in the world is never going to cause my brain chemistry to shift over to "normal" mode no matter HOW hard I try.

And I also see your point about people having such busy lives these days that maybe taking a simple weight loss pill would make everything easier and less stressful. It is definitely a valid point because so many of us are over-worked, over-booked, and over-stressed. And I am afraid that's what is so appealing about these pills. I say I am "afraid" because -- OBVIOUSLY -- I am not a big fan of diet pills. But like you said, everyone makes their own decisions, and in the end, it is up to the individual to determine which path is right for them. I choose not to go down that path, but that doesn't mean I judge those who do -- because they know what is best for them and I, quite obviously, do not :) .

As for me, I choose to make exercise and good nutrition a central focus in my life and (although I never thought of it this way until you mentioned it) I also choose to make it a full-time job. Mostly because it's my full-time body. So I guess now I can say that in addition to my 3 part-time jobs, 21 credit hours at school, and adding 3 - 5 "prison puppies" to my 5-pet household every weekend :dizzy:, I also have a full-time job of exercise and good nutrition. But for me, any amount of effort is worth it to keep my body healthy (and boy, does that "full-time job" pay well! :) Great benefits, too.) :)

So given the choice between taking a pill to lose the weight and working for it, I choose to work (despite my chaotic schedule). Because for me, it's about SO much more than "just" losing the weight. It's about being healthy, having energy to spare, and being strong inside and out. If there was a pill that I could take that ensured weight loss PLUS had the added side-effects of good cardiovascular health, better sleep, a finely-tuned digestive system :), higher energy, a great sense of personal pride, fewer sick days, increased self-confidence, a naturally elevated mood, toned muscles, increased stamina on the ski slope, clearer skin, and a greater appreciation for the body I call home, then I'd certainly take it. But for now I'll stick with good old-fashioned exercise and healthy food. Because the side-effects are actually the best part!

But again, as you said, that is only one individual's decision.

Thanks for your thoughts, Juche. It's a perspective I hadn't thought of before, and I appreciate you taking the time to post. :) Whatever method people choose, I wish them success and hope that -- no matter what -- they stay healthy.

Amarantha2
10-02-2005, 06:58 PM
Also not wanting to argue, but in my personal opinion, obesity is not a mental illness in the vast majority of cases. IMO, it's more often than not simply a result of eating too much of the wrong kinds of food and moving too little. There are instances where that's not the case and it's totally cool when medical science can step in with medication that might help alleviate whatever is causing the problem. But IS there an 80-90 percent success rate in people taking weight loss medication? (Unless you mean 80-90 percent success rate for people taking depression medication ...) ...

Dunno. I think applying some focus and mental energy on the project of me not weighing 247 pounds was well worth it. :)

But again, I'm not necessarily anti-medication or anti-anything or anyone ... whatever people chose to do is up to them and more power to 'em.

I just don't think it's mutually exclusive to lose weight by diet and exercise and at the same time to have a life, family, career, whatever. I think success in the weight loss arena would tend to lead to success in other arenas of life as well.

I think I just don't get the need for medication in most instances of needing to lose weight in the absence of a specific medical condition that precludes it.

LovesBassets
10-02-2005, 07:47 PM
Also not wanting to argue, but in my personal opinion, obesity is not a mental illness in the vast majority of cases. IMO, it's more often than not simply a result of eating too much of the wrong kinds of food and moving too little.

Agreed 100% Amarantha. I forgot to mention that (very important) point in my post. To my knowledge, Prader-Willy Syndrome is the only disorder which can lead to obesity that can be even remotely considered as a "mental illness." Which it isn't. It's a developmental disorder in which the brain never fully developed the structures necessary to regulate hunger. Over the years, I've taught several students with Prader-Willy -- and interestingly, not ONE of them was overweight, much less obese. A fact which in and of itself can go a long way toward proving that managing obesity is about managing your environment. If these kids who didn't even know what "being full" FELT like can maintain a healthy weight...well, you get my point I think.

I was obese (with a BMI of 34.0+) for nearly a decade. I didn't have a disease; I ate far too much of all the wrong foods and NEVER (intentionally ;) ) exercised. End of story.

Tealeaf
10-02-2005, 08:04 PM
I'm of the same mind as Kate on this one. I think there are alot of people who are telling themselves "I'm fat, so there must be some thing wrong with either how my head or my body is working. And if one of those isn't working, then a pill the obvious answer." But in the vast majority of cases, I don't think people are suffering from some sort of thyroid problem or chemical imbalance in their brains. They simply don't have a lifestyle that promotes good eating and exercise. I know that certainly was the case for me.

You know, if the Big News Story next week were about a new wonder drug that cut food cravings and hunger, and lead to dramatic weight loss with very little effort for everyone that tried it, I don't think I would take it. I worry about long term side effects. I remember when Phen-Fen was the Big Thing, then suddenly got yanked because it caused defective heart valve problems in women. Some of these women died.

I know the side effects of eating less and exercising more. I feel hungry sometimes, and low energy. My legs hurt sometimes. This I can live with. I'm also having the "side effects" of generally being at a higher energy level than I had been before, I feel stonger, and I can actually see muscles in my legs now.

Pills scare me. And they are not needed for the majority of people who want to lose weight.

libbysmom03
10-20-2005, 11:04 AM
I am going to respond to this even though I am hesitant. I have never mentioned this before b/c I did not want to be judged, but I take Phentermine. I began taking it in Oct. 2004 and immediately lost 15 lbs. I changed my calorie intake, but life was crazy and I was not able to impliment the exercise at that point. Then we moved and I began eating out of control again and gained it back plus 10 lbs in a really quick period of time-ALL ON PHENTERMINE!! I believe it was emotional eating b/c of everything that was going on. I began getting serious about changing my life back in July 05-I began working out with a trainer and doing cardio 5-6 days a week. I then joined WW in Aug. 05-I do still take the Phentermine b/c it helps me stay on track. I am not endorsing a diet pill by any means...but I have an extremely hard time losing weight. As you can see from my ticker I have only lost 7 lbs from July-Oct. I have changed my eating habits drastically and obviously the exercise is a huge improvement. I guess the reason I am posting this is b/c I feel right now in my life I am using the Phentermine as a tool to assist my weight loss progress. I do it under Dr.'s supervision and I'm telling ya...there is no magic pill....you have to change your life drastically. My metabolism is in the toilet b/c of all of the crash diets I have done...so losing weight is difficult. But I believe I am getting ready to make that turn and things are going to start really picking up for me...I just wanted to share that b/c I am willing to bet there are others out there afraid to say anything if they are taking something. Now I do not think OTC diet pills work...but I feel like sometimes some people need a little bit of help from a prescribed diet pill under a Dr.'s supervision.

MrsJim
10-20-2005, 11:43 AM
Marcie - I think the KEY WORDS in your post are "under a Doctor's supervision".

(and by that, I personally mean your PERSONAL physician or specialist - NOT one of those pill-pusher doctors that have clinics all over the place where you go in, get weighed, and pick up the pills and whatever else they can sell you (overpriced frozen meals, fiber cookies, vitamin injections etc)).

libbysmom03
10-20-2005, 12:57 PM
Yes....I very much agree!

Amarantha2
10-20-2005, 05:19 PM
Marcie, I think it's great you are willing to share your experience with phentermine. If you and your doctor decide on a course of medication, then that is your business and no one should "judge" you (your phrase, as I feel sure no one would). And I agree that the "doctor's supervision" is key, meaning your personal physician. Good luck ... and I'm KNOW you will be "making that turn" very soon. Sometimes things take time.

happydaisy
10-21-2005, 06:03 AM
As for me, I choose to make exercise and good nutrition a central focus in my life and (although I never thought of it this way until you mentioned it) I also choose to make it a full-time job. Mostly because it's my full-time body.

Kate - that's such a great way to put it I'm going to have to write it down! So true.

Sir Savage
10-21-2005, 02:47 PM
First off, I think it's important to dissect the term "diet pills" because it seems too broad. For example, there are prescription "diet pills" and then there are over-the-counter "diet pills". Within both categories, there are many different products and ingredients, some of which suppress appetite, some increase metabolism, some do both, so on and so forth. Even within each subcategory, such as the metabolism boosters, there are many different ingredients that act through different metabolic pathways.

So the term "diet pill" is an extremely broad term that actually doesn't tell us much of anything at all.

Having said that, I think all of them have the potential to be extremely important tools in combating our society's weight problem in general. We must understand that for many, being overweight is not a matter of willpower, it's a matter of genetic predisposition. For these folks, it is a condition that is as serious as any other. As such, it requires much more than simply the will to lose weight. In these cases, prescription and over-the-counter treatments can be very effective.

However, even those of us who are not seriously overweight can benefit from some of these products. Not the prescription-only ones, but perhaps many of the over-the-counter supplements. True, some sompanies are shady, but it's also true the over-the-counter supplement industry has come a long way in terms of the efficacy and safety of its products.

I think what it comes down to, for everyone, is a simple cost-benefit analysis. If you can take a product that provides a good benefit at a low cost, then the question is not why take it, the question is, why not take it?

LovesBassets
10-21-2005, 05:33 PM
We must understand that for many, being overweight is not a matter of willpower, it's a matter of genetic predisposition.
I disagree that "for many" being overweight is a genetic issue versus willpower. It "sounds good" because then folks who are obese or overweight can place the responsibility elsewhere. And even if someone HAS a genetic predisposition, that doesn't mean they can't lose weight naturally. I think too many people lean on the "gene excuse" by saying "well, my whole family is obese, so that's why I am." And often they never even give non-pill weight loss an honest try because they have found a good excuse not to bother -- or because they simply give up because they don't think they can do it due to heredity. I mean we can't fight genetics, right? It's actually far more likely that the whole family has similar eating and exercise habits.

If "many" overweight/obese people have a genetic predisposition to it, then why is there such a high number of overweight/obese people in the US? Shouldn't the obesity problem be worldwide, then? How come it's only a problem in heavily industrialized, wealthy nations? And before anyone says "ah, but we're all American/Canadian and share the same gene pool" let me add that we are a nation of immigrants from all over the world with hundreds -- if not thousands -- of new folks coming in every day. So the gene pool here is plenty diverse. Could we have an obesity problem because we drive everywhere? Because we don't have to go out and be active to collect our food? Because there's a drive-thru McDonalds/Wendy's/KFC in every town in the country? Sweden is wealthier than the US, and yet very few Swedes are overweight or obese. They are an ACTIVE people who tend to be hikers and skiiers and WALK from place to place. They eat fish and fresh vegetables and whole grains -- good wholesome foods. Where are the "many" genetically predisposed Swedes? Or Finns? Or Norwegians, for that matter? Walk the streets of Oslo for an hour and try and find an overweight or obese Norwegian. They're a rare bird.

However, even those of us who are not seriously overweight can benefit from some of these products. Not the prescription-only ones, but perhaps many of the over-the-counter supplements.
I also disagree with this. It's just what the OTC companies want us all to think -- LOL except for Leptopril (or whatever the heck it's called) which "ISN'T FOR THE CASUAL DIETER!!" (ha!). Many of these pills are nothing but caffeine plus a bunch of other stuff that is untested or only marginally "studied" and has vague links to weight loss. And sure, packing your system with horrendous amounts of caffeine (or speed, for that matter) will certainly slim you down. But at what cost? Heck, my mother had a doctor in the 1970s who PRESCRIBED speed to her for weight loss (she had TUBS of it), but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

I agree that for a VERY FEW people, prescription diet aids may be necessary as long as a physician has said so. But for "many?" No way.

Just my opinion.

Editing now to add:

BTW, my birthmother is 400+ lbs at 5'2". When I first learned this, I thought, "Whoa...I guess I'm genetically predisposed!" Which may or may not be true, especially considering the fact that my birthFATHER was built like Larry Bird -- that is, until he retired and started sitting around not doing much but watching TV. He's 6'2", and in photos of him taken in Vietnam, he looks like he'd weigh about 140 lbs soaking wet. And all 4 of my biological grandparents were thin as rails (they were farm folks, and therefore very active). So is the fact that I was 189 lbs (with an "obese" BMI of 33.4) at the time I learned about my birthmother's weight due to heredity? Or could it possibly be due to the fact that I learned my eating habits from my obese adoptive Dad who thought the 4 major food groups were salt, sugar, butter, and bacon? (And who consequently dropped dead one day at the age of 49 of an aortic aneurysm because his poor blood vessels couldn't take his high blood pressure anymore). Who the heck knows....and who the heck CARES? My genes don't matter because I WORKED to lose the weight. And I lost it. If someone is predisposed, they may just have to work harder than someone else at losing the weight. End of story. And that's life. Some people may be genetically predisposed to cancer, excessive ear wax, heart disease, freckles, male pattern baldness, bad teeth, ingrown toenails, or BUNIONS for that matter (my own particular cross to bear). That's just the way it is. Not fair, but oh well.

MrsJim
10-21-2005, 07:13 PM
Kate - I was going to respond...but in reading your post, I honestly have nothing to add (except that your Dad forgot the vital fifth food group: Chocolate :rofl: ).

And those Leprotil commercials crack me up too "NOT FOR THE CASUAL DIETER" hoo boy... :rolleyes:

LovesBassets
10-21-2005, 07:17 PM
LOL Mrs. Jim :lol: ...yeah, chocolate would be the 5th food group, and ice cream would be the 6th! :lol:

Yogini
10-21-2005, 07:23 PM
^^ Y'all forgot BEER and WHISKEY as important food groups :D

LovesBassets
10-21-2005, 07:26 PM
rflmao...and PIZZA!! :lol:

Yogini
10-21-2005, 07:27 PM
OH and POP/SODA :D

And Coffee!








Okay, I'll stop now... :)

Sir Savage
10-21-2005, 09:07 PM
I disagree that "for many" being overweight is a genetic issue versus willpower. It "sounds good" because then folks who are obese or overweight can place the responsibility elsewhere. And even if someone HAS a genetic predisposition, that doesn't mean they can't lose weight naturally. I think too many people lean on the "gene excuse" by saying "well, my whole family is obese, so that's why I am." And often they never even give non-pill weight loss an honest try because they have found a good excuse not to bother -- or because they simply give up because they don't think they can do it due to heredity. I mean we can't fight genetics, right? It's actually far more likely that the whole family has similar eating and exercise habits.

With all due respect, you can disagree if you like, but such genes have been isolated. Check recent anatomy and physiology textbooks, or better yet, go straight to physiology journals if you don't believe me.

I don't doubt that some people use it as an excuse to not attempt to better their lives, but the fact that there is a very strong genetic component to being overweight/obese for some people is essentially undisputable at this point.

Not everyone, mind you. Just some.

If "many" overweight/obese people have a genetic predisposition to it, then why is there such a high number of overweight/obese people in the US? Shouldn't the obesity problem be worldwide, then? How come it's only a problem in heavily industrialized, wealthy nations?

Because we and other nations like us are victims of our own success. We are societies of great wealth and we can therefore spend much more money on excesses, such as food. In these circumstances, genetic predispositions to obesity become more apparent.

Could we have an obesity problem because we drive everywhere? Because we don't have to go out and be active to collect our food? Because there's a drive-thru McDonalds/Wendy's/KFC in every town in the country?

Of course, but that is only part of the problem. One of the other parts of the problem, as I pointed out, is genetic predisposition.

It's not realistic to look at things as if there is only one variable at play and only one variable. In reality, there are many variables at play.

I also disagree with this. It's just what the OTC companies want us all to think -- LOL except for Leptopril (or whatever the heck it's called) which "ISN'T FOR THE CASUAL DIETER!!" (ha!). Many of these pills are nothing but caffeine plus a bunch of other stuff that is untested or only marginally "studied" and has vague links to weight loss. And sure, packing your system with horrendous amounts of caffeine (or speed, for that matter) will certainly slim you down. But at what cost?

It's unfortunate that the bad apples spoil the bunch, in your mind.

The supplement industry is full of BS companies, sure, but it also has a lot of products that do what they say.

It's not fair to generalize an entire industry because of a few moronic companies.

Meg
10-21-2005, 09:34 PM
The supplement industry is full of BS companies, sure, but it also has a lot of products that do what they say.

It's not fair to generalize an entire industry because of a few moronic companies.

Hmmm, it couldn't be that you're making those statements because you WORK for a supplement company, could it? (as you posted elsewhere) And you wouldn't just happen to be posting here at 3FC in order to PROMOTE your supplements in the future, would you? :chin:

LovesBassets
10-21-2005, 10:01 PM
but such genes have been isolated. Check recent anatomy and physiology textbooks, or better yet, go straight to physiology journals if you don't believe me.
My understanding is that the majority of such studies have been conducted using laboratory animals, not humans. If a colony of 100 C3H mice are given a certain gene (or gene blocker) and 75% of them become obese, it doesn't mean that there is a human obesity gene. If you have a link to a genetic study done on humans that identifies the specific HUMAN obesity gene, I'd love to see it (and that type of link is okay to post on 3FC, by the way). And I'm talking about a reputable study that doesn't include the words "could cause," "may be associated with," "might be linked to," or "could lead to" in the abstract, because those types of studies -- while interesting -- do not give a definitive answer. Using my cell phone "could possibly lead to" my developing brain cancer ("some studies say"), but I'm not tossing my $200 Nokia in a dumpster until someone with impeccable scientific credentials and a boatload of flawless documentation says it "DOES."

And again, even if I went to my doctor, had him yank a piece of my hair out so he could map my entire genome -- and learned that I have The Obesity Gene -- that doesn't mean I can't lose weight naturally. It only means I have to work harder than someone who has The Skinny Gene or The Normal Gene or The JenniferLopezButt Gene. If I had a gene that made me predisposed to cancer, I'd do what I could to minimize the risk -- exercise, no smoking, etc. There are certain genetic conditions that an individual can do something about. One may not be able to "fix" the gene, but one can make positive life changes to counteract the gene. Obesity, if it turns out to be genetic/somewhat genetic is something an individual can fix if they work at it. I see evidence of that every single day on 3FC. If "many" of these ladies and gents are genetically predisposed to obesity -- and yet they've lost 50, 100, or even 200 lbs -- then how are they doing it??? They ain't all on diet pills, I'll tell you that much.


Because we and other nations like us are victims of our own success. We are societies of great wealth and we can therefore spend much more money on excesses, such as food. In these circumstances, genetic predispositions to obesity become more apparent.
What about the Scandinavians? The Swiss? The JAPANESE? These are all people living in supremely wealthy societies. Yet obesity has not even come CLOSE to epidemic proportions in those countries. Again, I ask what is so different about American society? I'll answer that, as it's a rhetorical question. As a culture, we're "victims" (interesting term) of our own laziness and love affair with fat-laden convenience foods and a ridiculously sedentary lifestyle that revolves around the TV, the internet, and (for kids) video games. We're also "victims," by the way, of thinking we are "victims" of practically everything and don't take responsibility for anything anymore because we're too busy being "victims." Watch Jerry Springer for 30 seconds and you'll see what I mean. And the term "victim," by the way, infers that we have no control -- that someone else has DONE something to us without our permission or blessing. It's like those people who tried to sue McDonald's for "making them fat." Did Ronald McDonald sneak up behind them, pin them to the sidewalk, and stuff a Big Mac down their throats? If he DID, then yes, they are "victims." But if they walked in and ordered the Big Mac themselves, then the only actual victims are their own blood vessels, hearts, livers, and GI tract.

It's not realistic to look at things as if there is only one variable at play and only one variable. In reality, there are many variables at play.
Yeah. Variables like escalators, elevators, moving walkways in airports, TV remote controls, and those stupid little robot vacuum cleaners that save us from getting even 10 minutes of exercise by vacuuming the living room our own darn selves. God forbid we as a society should actually MOVE AROUND. Not to mention all the fat-laden, additive-rich crap sold at gas stations, football games, school cafeterias, 24-hour stores, etc. It's easier to buy a Twinkie in this country than a really good-quality mango. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't make the effort to be healthy despite the fat-favorable environment. Saying it's the variables that cause obesity is just another way for people to avoid being accountable for their own health and well being. Find that mango! Take THE STAIRS instead of the escalator! It's called "free will."

It's unfortunate that the bad apples spoil the bunch, in your mind.
In my mind, and in the minds of those who work at the FDA. Not to mention in the minds of the relatives of the people who died due to Fen Fen (or whatever the heck that stuff is/was).

The supplement industry is full of BS companies, sure, but it also has a lot of products that do what they say.
I think I'm stealing/paraphrasing one of Mrs.Jim's favorite lines here: If there was a diet pill out there that actually produced healthy, permanent weight loss, it would be on the cover of Time Magazine, NewsWeek, and the New York Times -- and no one in this country would be overweight.

It's not fair to generalize an entire industry because of a few moronic companies.
I'm sure the entire diet pill industry will get over the unfairness of my opinions -- I'm just little old me and they're a multi-gazillion dollar industry. They've got bigger fish to fry. Or -- more to the point -- bigger scams to try. Plus, they're probably too busy counting their money (or planning their next NOT FOR CASUAL DIETERS advertising campaign) to care what anyone -- much less ME -- has to say about them.

And Meg has me curious now....who did you say you worked for? :s: .

Editing now to add: And SirSavage, I just checked out some of your other posts. I'm curious...what makes "an avid recreational bodybuilder" such as yourself so keen to defend DIET pills?

happydaisy
10-22-2005, 12:40 PM
Kate - If there was a butt kicking smilie I'd have to give a few!! :lol: :lol: Nice post! ;)

MrsJim
10-22-2005, 12:49 PM
Kate - If there was a butt kicking smilie I'd have to give a few!! :lol: :lol: Nice post! ;)

Umm I couldn't find a butt-kickin' one but what about this one.

http://www.mazeguy.net/silly/fryingpan.gif

Amarantha2
10-22-2005, 12:53 PM
... And again, even if I went to my doctor, had him yank a piece of my hair out so he could map my entire genome -- and learned that I have The Obesity Gene -- that doesn't mean I can't lose weight naturally. It only means I have to work harder than someone who has The Skinny Gene or The Normal Gene or The JenniferLopezButt Gene. If I had a gene that made me predisposed to cancer, I'd do what I could to minimize the risk -- exercise, no smoking, etc. There are certain genetic conditions that an individual can do something about. One may not be able to "fix" the gene, but one can make positive life changes to counteract the gene. Obesity, if it turns out to be genetic/somewhat genetic is something an individual can fix if they work at it. I see evidence of that every single day on 3FC. If "many" of these ladies and gents are genetically predisposed to obesity -- and yet they've lost 50, 100, or even 200 lbs -- then how are they doing it??? They ain't all on diet pills, I'll tell you that much.

What about the Scandinavians? The Swiss? The JAPANESE? These are all people living in supremely wealthy societies. Yet obesity has not even come CLOSE to epidemic proportions in those countries. Again, I ask what is so different about American society? I'll answer that, as it's a rhetorical question. As a culture, we're "victims" (interesting term) of our own laziness and love affair with fat-laden convenience foods and a ridiculously sedentary lifestyle that revolves around the TV, the internet, and (for kids) video games. We're also "victims," by the way, of thinking we are "victims" of practically everything and don't take responsibility for anything anymore because we're too busy being "victims." Watch Jerry Springer for 30 seconds and you'll see what I mean. And the term "victim," by the way, infers that we have no control -- that someone else has DONE something to us without our permission or blessing. It's like those people who tried to sue McDonald's for "making them fat." Did Ronald McDonald sneak up behind them, pin them to the sidewalk, and stuff a Big Mac down their throats? If he DID, then yes, they are "victims." But if they walked in and ordered the Big Mac themselves, then the only actual victims are their own blood vessels, hearts, livers, and GI tract.

Yeah. Variables like escalators, elevators, moving walkways in airports, TV remote controls, and those stupid little robot vacuum cleaners that save us from getting even 10 minutes of exercise by vacuuming the living room our own darn selves. God forbid we as a society should actually MOVE AROUND. Not to mention all the fat-laden, additive-rich crap sold at gas stations, football games, school cafeterias, 24-hour stores, etc. It's easier to buy a Twinkie in this country than a really good-quality mango. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't make the effort to be healthy despite the fat-favorable environment. Saying it's the variables that cause obesity is just another way for people to avoid being accountable for their own health and well being. Find that mango! Take THE STAIRS instead of the escalator! It's called "free will." ...

You said it, LovesBassets!!!! :cheer:

LovesBassets
10-22-2005, 12:54 PM
If you think that's good, you should see the letter I sent (via registered mail) to Wal-Mart headquarters last month -- re: the puddle of urine I encountered in their housewares department :D .

MrsJim
10-22-2005, 01:26 PM
If you think that's good, you should see the letter I sent (via registered mail) to Wal-Mart headquarters last month -- re: the puddle of urine I encountered in their housewares department :D .

Hm maybe it was just some really bright yellow wine that had leaked out of a bottle... :rofl: :devil:

Anyway...I hear that "I/he/she can't help being fat because it's genetic" stuff all the time (we're talking REAL LIFE here). My response is - even if the genetic stuff were true (I'm thinking of the studies on Pima Indians in Mexico and Arizona) does that mean a person should just not even TRY? I'm sure that I'm genetically predisposed for heart problems, myself - my dad and all six of his brothers have had heart problems at some point in the past. So what do I do, just say "the **** with it, it's going to happen anyway" and go 'gentle into that good night"? Nah - I'd rather do this - do whatever *I* can that is recommended by my physician, the American Heart Association and just COMMON SENSE - by making changes in my personal lifestyle to accomodate the hand that I was dealt (whether or not that's true).

So for "I'm genetically destined to be fat" conversations, I always say - well then you need to make adjustments if you don't want to be that way - it's their choice...

Sorry for the rant...

Sir Savage
10-22-2005, 01:47 PM
Hmmm, it couldn't be that you're making those statements because you WORK for a supplement company, could it? (as you posted elsewhere) And you wouldn't just happen to be posting here at 3FC in order to PROMOTE your supplements in the future, would you? :chin:

It's against board rules to do that.

My understanding is that the majority of such studies have been conducted using laboratory animals, not humans.

Really? May I suggest some reading to lookup?

Loos RJ, Rankinen T, Chagnon Y, Tremblay A, Perusse L, Bouchard C.

Polymorphisms in the leptin and leptin receptor genes in relation to resting metabolic rate and respiratory quotient in the Quebec Family Study.
Int J Obes (Lond). 2005 Oct 11; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 16231024 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Phan J, Reue K.

Lipin, a lipodystrophy and obesity gene.
Obstet Gynecol Surv. 2005 Oct;60(10):652-3.
PMID: 16186778 [PubMed - in process]

Wood IS, Wang B, Jenkins JR, Trayhurn P.

The pro-inflammatory cytokine IL-18 is expressed in human adipose tissue and strongly upregulated by TNFalpha in human adipocytes.
Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2005 Nov 18;337(2):422-9. Epub 2005 Sep 21.
PMID: 16188228 [PubMed - in process]

Lee HJ, Kim KJ, Park MH, Kimm K, Park C, Oh B, Lee JY.

Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms and Haplotype LD Analysis of the 29-kb IGF2 Region on Chromosome 11p15.5 in the Korean Population.
Hum Hered. 2005 Sep 13;60(2):73-80 [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 16166779 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Eikelis N, Esler M.

The neurobiology of human obesity.
Exp Physiol. 2005 Sep;90(5):673-82. Epub 2005 Aug 16.
PMID: 16105936 [PubMed - in process]

Yiannakouris N, Yannakoulia M, Melistas L, Chan JL, Klimis-Zacas D, Mantzoros CS.

The Q223R polymorphism of the leptin receptor gene is significantly associated with obesity and predicts a small percentage of body weight and body composition variability.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Sep;86(9):4434-9.
PMID: 11549688 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Lakka TA, Rankinen T, Weisnagel SJ, Chagnon YC, Lakka HM, Ukkola O, Boule N, Rice T, Leon AS, Skinner JS, Wilmore JH, Rao DC, Bergman R, Bouchard C.

Leptin and leptin receptor gene polymorphisms and changes in glucose homeostasis in response to regular exercise in nondiabetic individuals: the HERITAGE family study.
Diabetes. 2004 Jun;53(6):1603-8.
PMID: 15161768 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Chagnon YC, Chung WK, Perusse L, Chagnon M, Leibel RL, Bouchard C.

Linkages and associations between the leptin receptor (LEPR) gene and human body composition in the Quebec Family Study.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1999 Mar;23(3):278-86.
PMID: 10193873 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Wauters M, Considine RV, Chagnon M, Mertens I, Rankinen T, Bouchard C, Van Gaal LF.

Leptin levels, leptin receptor gene polymorphisms, and energy metabolism in women.
Obes Res. 2002 May;10(5):394-400.
PMID: 12006639 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Mattevi VS, Zembrzuski VM, Hutz MH.

Association analysis of genes involved in the leptin-signaling pathway with obesity in Brazil.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2002 Sep;26(9):1179-85.
PMID: 12187394 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Skibola CF, Holly EA, Forrest MS, Hubbard A, Bracci PM, Skibola DR, Hegedus C, Smith MT.

Body mass index, leptin and leptin receptor polymorphisms, and non-hodgkin lymphoma.
Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2004 May;13(5):779-86.
PMID: 15159310 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Katzmarzyk PT, Rankinen T, Perusse L, Deriaz O, Tremblay A, Borecki I, Rao DC, Bouchard C.

Linkage and association of the sodium potassium-adenosine triphosphatase alpha2 and beta1 genes with respiratory quotient and resting metabolic rate in the Quebec Family Study.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Jun;84(6):2093-7.
PMID: 10372716 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Wauters M, Mertens I, Chagnon M, Rankinen T, Considine RV, Chagnon YC, Van Gaal LF, Bouchard C.

Polymorphisms in the leptin receptor gene, body composition and fat distribution in overweight and obese women.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 May;25(5):714-20.
PMID: 11360155 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Filozof CM, Murua C, Sanchez MP, Brailovsky C, Perman M, Gonzalez CD, Ravussin E.

Low plasma leptin concentration and low rates of fat oxidation in weight-stable post-obese subjects.
Obes Res. 2000 May;8(3):205-10.
PMID: 10832762 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Mammes O, Aubert R, Betoulle D, Pean F, Herbeth B, Visvikis S, Siest G, Fumeron F.

LEPR gene polymorphisms: associations with overweight, fat mass and response to diet in women.
Eur J Clin Invest. 2001 May;31(5):398-404.
PMID: 11380591 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

That should be enough to get you started, but it gives a far from complete picture of what we're dealing with.

Yes , there is more than genetics at play. I'm not disputing that. What I am saying, however, is that it's not simply a matter of willpower for many people. Discovering and understanding the intricacies of human obesity goes far beyond simply having the willpower to lose weight.

Things are rarely ever as simple as they seem. You cannot simply discount other variables involved just because "you disagree". With all due respect, it's not a matter of belief here, it's a matter of what the data and research shows.

By the way, you talk about various things that individuals can do to combat obesity, but you discount the role that "diet pills" can play in doing just that. We need to be open to all possible options for living healthier lives, not just the ones that you subectively happen to like. There is no "one size fits all" treatment plan for anything, obesity, cancer, or what have you. We need to remain open minded.

In my mind, and in the minds of those who work at the FDA. Not to mention in the minds of the relatives of the people who died due to Fen Fen (or whatever the heck that stuff is/was).

Ah, yes, the FDA. Well, they approved the drug you speak of. And others whose risks, it turned out, outweighed the benefits.

They also regularly attempt to shut down alternative means of obtaining a healthy lifestyle.

The FDA does not have our best interests in mind.

I'm sure the entire diet pill industry will get over the unfairness of my opinions -- I'm just little old me and they're a multi-gazillion dollar industry. They've got bigger fish to fry. Or -- more to the point -- bigger scams to try. Plus, they're probably too busy counting their money (or planning their next NOT FOR CASUAL DIETERS advertising campaign) to care what anyone -- much less ME -- has to say about them.

There's a word for this- stereotyping.

Once again, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about the entire supplement industry simply because of some vocal idiots.

It seems you readily recognize the unfairness of your opinions. Well, as long as you recognize that they are indeed unfair, then mission accomplished there.

I think I'm stealing/paraphrasing one of Mrs.Jim's favorite lines here: If there was a diet pill out there that actually produced healthy, permanent weight loss, it would be on the cover of Time Magazine, NewsWeek, and the New York Times -- and no one in this country would be overweight

Perfection is an ideal that only exists in philosophy and fantasy. If you expect anything to be perfect, you will set yourself up for nothing but disappintment. The bar is simply too high and you will fall below it.

There is no pill that will shred the fat off of you and keep it off, without any effort on your part and without side-effects. It's simply expecting too much. They only provide assistance, nothing more.

We don't have such high expectations for other things in life, so why should we for "diet pills"? It's unreasonable.

And Meg has me curious now....who did you say you worked for?

I believe that is against board rules.

Editing now to add: And SirSavage, I just checked out some of your other posts. I'm curious...what makes "an avid recreational bodybuilder" such as yourself so keen to defend DIET pills?

Because certain "diet pills" (man I loathe that term) can help achieve fat loss safely.

marbleflys
10-22-2005, 02:32 PM
Oh MY! whatta discussion......

Now don't chop my head off.....My Internist gave me a scrip last week for Phentermine (short term use, 2 months)....Phentermine is the better half of the Phen-Phen and is not off the market. I haven't filled it yet, but I'm going to try it. Previously I tried Meridia and while it doesn't actually make me stop eating, it does get me up and moving and feeling good.

Now I'm not morbidly obese, but I'm very slow to lose (it's taken me 10 mons. to get to where I am, give or take a couple of lbs.)....there's nothing wrong with my thyroid, I eat a healthy diet, I exercise and work my butt off. The SCALE WON'T MOVE!

Previously, I suffered from major depression for over 2 years and was prescribed several anti's that didn't work (except to give me a VORACIOUS appetite and a deep love for taking Ben & Jerry to bed with me every night)

Before that, I could diet/exercise and the scale would move about .5-1 lb. every week if I felt I needed to diet....I never had a weight problem until I reached my mid-30s.,I was a very active child/teen participating in several sports and ran track...

So I'm going to try this part of the "Phen" and see if it helps me. (putting on my protective gear to keep the rotten tomatoes outta my hair)

LovesBassets
10-22-2005, 03:06 PM
Marbles...no worries about tomatoes, chickie :) .

May I suggest some reading to lookup?...That should be enough to get you started

Why thank you :) . I appreciate your help in getting me started.


it's not simply a matter of willpower for many people. Discovering and understanding the intricacies of human obesity goes far beyond simply having the willpower to lose weight.

Agreed. It's also about dedication, habit, self-education, commitment to exercise, mental effort, positive thinking, self-assurance, planning, avoiding temptations, coming to terms with one's emotional connection to food, valuing one's health over convenience, overcoming a fat-ladened food environment, picking yourself up after you fail, and HARD WORK 24/7.

Things are rarely ever as simple as they seem. You cannot simply discount other variables involved just because "you disagree".

I don't believe I ever said anything seemed "simple." Far from it. Losing weight can be one of the hardest things a person does in their lifetime for all the reasons mentioned in my previous paragraph. In addition, I can discount whatever I wish to discount. That's the beauty of democracy.

With all due respect, it's not a matter of belief here, it's a matter of what the data and research shows.

Beliefs are born of experience -- both personal experience and the experiences openly shared by members of a community. My beliefs about weight loss come from such experiences. And while you have kindly supplied me with a few resources to "get me started" on the data and research, nothing is going to change my experience-based belief that natural weight loss is possible for 99% of the population -- obesity gene or no obesity gene.

By the way, you talk about various things that individuals can do to combat obesity, but you discount the role that "diet pills" can play in doing just that.

Yes I do. Discount it.

We need to be open to all possible options for living healthier lives, not just the ones that you subectively happen to like.

"Healthier" being the key term. Stuffing ourselves with questionable chemicals, additives, "herbal supplements," and caffeine is not healthy. And yes, I freely admit that I "subjectively happen to like" lean meats, whole grains, fresh vegetables, and regular exercise. My body likes them, too.

There is no "one size fits all" treatment plan for anything, obesity, cancer, or what have you. We need to remain open minded.

True. But we also need to remain rational, sensible, and willing to question the motives behind a company that charges $45 for 2 ounces of a "diet" product. Too many companies are in it for the almighty dollar and do not have the consumer's best interest at heart, and all of us must take on the responsibility of thoroughly researching any product that promises us quick, fabulous results.


Ah, yes, the FDA. Well, they approved the drug you speak of. And others whose risks, it turned out, outweighed the benefits.

Which only proves that it is up to the individual to educate themselves before taking any kind of "pill." That is common sense.

They also regularly attempt to shut down alternative means of obtaining a healthy lifestyle.

Harmful and/or totally unproven alternative means such as coral calcium and all the other garbage pushed by that "Natural Cures Book" fraudster whose name I (thankfully) forget? Yep. They do. And yet my Reiki Master continues to practice. As does my cousin the accupuncturist, my homeopathic doctor, and my mother's herbalist. A distinction needs to be made between alternative means that have been proven to be harmful and/or useless (and yet people make piles of money hawking them), and alternative means that have been proven effective through reputable, independent clinical studies.

The FDA does not have our best interests in mind.

This is a matter of opinion. And because the FDA is not driven by financial motives (unlike the diet pill industry), I'll stick with them.

There's a word for this- stereotyping.
Again, I'm sure the entire industry will get over it.

Once again, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about the entire supplement industry simply because of some vocal idiots.
No need to feel sorry for me. And I do take supplements, by the way. Calcium supplements.

It seems you readily recognize the unfairness of your opinions. Well, as long as you recognize that they are indeed unfair, then mission accomplished there.

The paragraph in which I "readily recognize[d] the unfairness of [my] opinions" was positively dripping in sarcasm. Such nuances are often missed in the printed media, therefore I understand your confusion. Mission failure, I'm afraid.

Perfection is an ideal that only exists in philosophy and fantasy. If you expect anything to be perfect, you will set yourself up for nothing but disappintment. The bar is simply too high and you will fall below it.

Agreed -- and I am somewhat confused as to when and where the issue of "perfection" ever came up in this discussion...

We don't have such high expectations for other things in life, so why should we for "diet pills"? It's unreasonable.

Agreed. Having high expectations of diet pills IS unreasonable. But ironically, these pills tend to be marketed in such a way that vulnerable, frustrated people ARE given high expectations. "When is a diet pill worth $153 a bottle? WHEN IT WORKS!!" I mean, is the consumer expecting to lose 10 lbs after dishing out that much cash? Why no, because "It's not for the casual dieter!" What kind of expectations are people SUPPOSED to have when faced with this kind of hooey?

I believe that is against board rules.
Saying where you work? I don't think that's against board rules. I've been open many times about where I work: at a vet clinic, a doggie daycare, and as a Social Studies and English tutor. I see no harm in sharing basic information such as that. If I started ADVERTISING my vet as the best one in Massachusetts and gave everyone his phone number...well, yeah, THAT would be against board rules.[/QUOTE]

Sir Savage
10-22-2005, 03:33 PM
Marbles...no worries about tomatoes, chickie :) .

Agreed. It's also about dedication, habit, self-education, commitment to exercise, mental effort, positive thinking, self-assurance, planning, avoiding temptations, coming to terms with one's emotional connection to food, valuing one's health over convenience, overcoming a fat-ladened food environment, picking yourself up after you fail, and HARD WORK 24/7.

And genetics, of course.

In addition, I can discount whatever I wish to discount. That's the beauty of democracy.

Of course you can. You can discount whatever you want but that does not mean you are correct.

Beliefs are born of experience -- both personal experience and the experiences openly shared by members of a community. My beliefs about weight loss come from such experiences. And while you have kindly supplied me with a few resources to "get me started" on the data and research, nothing is going to change my experience-based belief that natural weight loss is possible for 99% of the population -- obesity gene or no obesity gene.

First off, subjective beliefs have no place in science. Once again, this is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of what the research shows to be the case with a high probability of being true.

I can believe that I can walk through walls, but quantum theory tells me that the probability of that occuring is approaching zero.

Similarly, you can believe that genetics plays no significant role for the obese, but the research tells us otherwise.

Discount what you wish, but do so at the risk of being extremely incorrect.

"Healthier" being the key term. Stuffing ourselves with questionable chemicals, additives, "herbal supplements," and caffeine is not healthy. And yes, I freely admit that I "subjectively happen to like" lean meats, whole grains, fresh vegetables, and regular exercise. My body likes them, too.

Case in point.

Caffeine is thermogenic, stimulates wakefullness, is neuroprotective, and safe in moderate amounts.

There's nothing "questionable" about this. Controlled research shows this to be the case.

Now if someone ODs on caffeine and messes themself up, that's an entirely different matter. But even then, the substance itself isn't questionable, the moron who ODed was questionable.

This is the case for many products out there, including green tea, acetyl-L-carnitine, sesamin, and so forth.

True. But we also need to remain rational, sensible, and willing to question the motives behind a company that charges $45 for 2 ounces of a "diet" product. Too many companies are in it for the almighty dollar and do not have the consumer's best interest at heart, and all of us must take on the responsibility of thoroughly researching any product that promises us quick, fabulous results.

Of course we need to question that sort of thing.

Just like you should probably question your labeling of the entire supplement industry based on only some of the moronic companies.

Only reasonable and fair, no?

A distinction needs to be made between alternative means that have been proven to be harmful and/or useless (and yet people make piles of money hawking them), and alternative means that have been proven effective through reputable, independent clinical studies.

Of course.

So why then can't you employ a similar reasoning and distinguish between good companies and bad companies instead of labeling the entire industry?

Hmm. Criss-cross reasoning, it would seem.

This is a matter of opinion. And because the FDA is not driven by the financial motives (unlike the diet pill industry), I'll stick with them.

No, they are driven by a motive that is just as bad- political.

Agreed -- and confused as to when and where the issue of "perfection" ever came up in this discussion...

If there was a diet pill out there that actually produced healthy, permanent weight loss, it would be on the cover of Time Magazine, NewsWeek, and the New York Times -- and no one in this country would be overweight.

In other words, a perfect fat loss supplement.

It is unreasonable.

So they why expect it per my italicized quote above?

Saying where you work? I don't think that's against board rules. I've been open many times about where I work: at a vet clinic, a doggie daycare, and as a Social Studies and English tutor. I see no harm in sharing basic information such as that. If I started ADVERTISING my vet clinic as the best one in Massachusetts and gave everyone his phone number...well, yeah, THAT would be against board rules.

It seems I've had a post deleted where I simply stated I worked for a supplement company. Mentioning it by name, I would bet, is a worse offense.

Amarantha2
10-22-2005, 05:23 PM
Hm maybe it was just some really bright yellow wine that had leaked out of a bottle... :rofl: :devil:

Anyway...I hear that "I/he/she can't help being fat because it's genetic" stuff all the time (we're talking REAL LIFE here). My response is - even if the genetic stuff were true (I'm thinking of the studies on Pima Indians in Mexico and Arizona) does that mean a person should just not even TRY? I'm sure that I'm genetically predisposed for heart problems, myself - my dad and all six of his brothers have had heart problems at some point in the past. So what do I do, just say "the **** with it, it's going to happen anyway" and go 'gentle into that good night"? Nah - I'd rather do this - do whatever *I* can that is recommended by my physician, the American Heart Association and just COMMON SENSE - by making changes in my personal lifestyle to accomodate the hand that I was dealt (whether or not that's true).

So for "I'm genetically destined to be fat" conversations, I always say - well then you need to make adjustments if you don't want to be that way - it's their choice...

Sorry for the rant...

Mrs. Jim, I KNOW I'm genetically predisposed for a certain heart irregularity that has killed two family members close to me ... one only a few months ago ... and that just makes me wanna work harder and harder to live and to do that, I have to make those adjustments you speak of. I DEFY genetics to tell me how long I will live or how "fat" I'll decide to be.

So don't be sorry for the rant. You are right ... it's a CHOICE, even if there are factors involved that we don't choose. Isn't that the way with all of life? We don't choose lots of things and we can't control lots of things ... truthfully, the only thing people can really control is themselves.

Illustration: I DID actually have a Nemo cake today, thus killin' off the no-sugar vow yet again. It DID for a second feel that I had no choice but to buy that cake and eat it. I was in the drugstore on the way home from being out on a job that involved stressful confrontations. I KNEW that if I went into that particular drugstore, I would want a Nemo cake as an antidote to the toxic stress, because it had worked thousands of times before. I understood all the ramifications ... the cortisol connection (if it exists), the fat gene (if it exists), the psychological hunger, whatever ... still it FELT like I had no choice but to get the cake, but my experience told me I also had the power to resist, so I had to make a choice ... to fight the overwhelming feelin' I had that I really had no choice to soothe myself with the cake (and be hungry all day) or to eat the thing. I'm not concerned about eating it, just pleased that I can recognize that genetics or whatever may get a foothold now and then but only if I allow 'em to.

It's all about ME! :)

I really hope no one who desires to be at a better weight allows the "genetic" thing to bother them. Whatever the hand we are dealt, we really do have a lot of control over our weight ... not sayin' we'll all get to the exact figure we have in mind, but we can manage it.

marbleflys
10-22-2005, 05:52 PM
OK, but WHAT is a NEMO-CAKE? (we don't have them in my area, which is probably a good thing).

But I do understand what you are saying about the compelling URGE. next time you will drive by the store....or take another route.

my friend has no control with ice-cream....if it's in her house, she'll wake up at 3AM and go immediately to the freezer and scarf it down.

I can be the same way too. But I've "trained" myself to just not buy the foods I cannot trust myself with. Or I'll buy it, have one or 2 treats then quickly bring the rest to work or give to my mom.

I don't blame my weight or slowness on any genetics (just in case SS thought I might be joining him)....My father's family is prone to morbid obesity and heart disease, high cholesterol, etc. My mother's side is completely healthy, low cohlesterol normal weight.

My cholesterol, general health is good (the depression came from adverse events beginning as reactive depression, then it snowballed). I think my wt. gain is caused by my age (peri-menopausal), environment and a sedentary job where I spend too many hours parked on my butt.

Amarantha2
10-22-2005, 05:58 PM
Ya DON'T wanna know 'bout Nemo cake, Marble! :)

Actually it's a cult thing. I've been eatin' these for decades (hence the weight problem). They are a fresh-tastin' ol' fashioned line of snack cakes. I favor the carrot cake.

Sadly, there is no other route home but past Walgreen's ... my true spiritual home, BTW, where they keep the Nemo's.

My computer died when I was going to respond to your phen post ... no tomatoes from me either as I feel medication of any kind is a personal choice between physician and patient.

I agree 'bout depression and age impacting weight. Also my job is only sedentary a few hours a day, the rest of the time it's quite active, but I still seem to need a lot of exercise to manage my weight. But the good news for me is that the exercise fights the depression.

We don't yet know which side is winnin' ... :)

marbleflys
10-22-2005, 06:08 PM
You & I are in agreement about the exercise.....I good AM workout before the day gets away from me makes a world of difference to my mood. and works better (for me) than all the zoloft, paxil or wellbutrin I've tried.

There is a special test I could obtain to check if my metabolism is affected from the long-term use of anti's, but I prefer to think I will heal within the year with exercise, diet and a swift kick.

Good thing we don't have Nemo in NJ....but cake isn't really my nemisis....it's chips or cheese and daily catering of food at my jobsite....it's really hard to sit around and eat salads when my students are dining on sesame chicken and crispy noodles...I have a budget and chinese food can be s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d to feed the masses.

Amarantha2
10-22-2005, 06:20 PM
Yes, I need to do my X early in the a.m. as well or it tends not to get done. My spinnin' class at 5:30 a.m. (followed by core/ab class, then dynamic stretch) twice a week banishes depression for hours. I only do this twice a week but if I don't miss and stick to it, it leads me to make it into the gym on the other days as well. Today is a bust as I had to go on photoshoot early.

Sir Savage
10-22-2005, 07:45 PM
I don't blame my weight or slowness on any genetics (just in case SS thought I might be joining him)....

Where did I say it's ok to blame one's weight problems solely on genetics?

I said it's one of many factors involved, and one that we cannot discount just because we "don't believe in it".

Nothing more, nothing less.

It's perfectly fine to have a "rah-rah-sis-boom-bah" attitude in attacking fat. In fact, that's great. That's the attitude everyone who combats a weight problem should have. However, some people simply have a very hard time losing and keeping weight off due to genetic factors.

One of my own dear sisters is this way. She is quite likely clinically obese and she has such a hard time trying to lose weight.

I, on the other hand, am genetically gifted. I've been very muscular from day one. I'm one of those people who can just look at a weight and gain five solid pounds of muscle.

Why the differences? Genetics.

And it's very easy for me and others like me, who are more genetically gifted, to look at others and say "hey! your problem is just attitude! get to work!" but as I've said, it's just not anywhere near that simple.

Mrs.T
10-22-2005, 08:06 PM
I've taken Phentermine. Supervised by my doctor.

Genetics predispose me to be over weight? Yes, probably because most of the women in my family ARE over weight. That doesn't mean I HAVE to be. I think of Phentermine as a boosting point, and I think it can be very useful to someone who needs a push in the right direction. Only, however, supervised by a doctor would I recommend this. The point, or so my doctor told me, is to help my body acclimate to the new habbits and help me through the rough spots. NOT to fix my problem.

Emotional eating isn't genetic. Emotional eating is something I do when I have anxiety. I tend to think, that had I not learned to numb my feelings with food at an early age, I wouldn't have the problem I do now, despite how my family looks. I know despite my genetics I am capable of losing weight with and without the Phentermine.

Why then use Phentermine at all? It helps that part of me that really really wants that recess peanut butter cup. If I wanted to eat the recess, I would anyway, the Phentermine just helps curb the 'need', it's not magic, and it doesn't work by itself. If I am really set and determined, the Phentermine is a very useful tool and it's much easier to say no to the recess urge, especially in the beginning when everything 'feel's' so difficult.

I hope you all have a great evening!

LovesBassets
10-22-2005, 08:48 PM
And genetics, of course.
For you, it would be "of course;" for me, it would be "of course not." We obviously won't be changing each other's minds on this one, so perhaps we should agree to disagree rather than clogging the boards with our charming banter about the human genome.

You can discount whatever you want but that does not mean you are correct.
Quite true. And an individual can also vehemently ACCEPT certain things (such as studies) because such studies support the preconceived opinions of that individual -- and said individual may also not be correct. There's a wonderful book called "How to Lie With Maps" which my thesis advisor gave me when I finished graduate school. The premise is that any data, statistics, or test results can be manipulated in such a way as to provide the desired outcome for the initiator of the research. I am not saying that is true of the sources you have given me (which I will be reading later tonight if this weekend's four darling-but-devious prison puppies ever go to sleep), but rather that all studies have sponsors, and all sponsors -- whether they be philanthropic, academic, political, or corporate -- have agendas. And the majority of researchers need sponsors to continue their work. Obviously. Does this mean such studies are automatically flawed? Of course not. It only means that we (as the consumers) must think critically about ANY product marketed with the words "clinical studies show." It is not enough to simply accept a study as "correct" because it looks and sounds very academic/professional/whatever, or because it supports a belief you already hold.

First off, subjective beliefs have no place in science. Once again, this is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of what the research shows to be the case with a high probability of being true.

If subjective beliefs have no place in science, then how are scientific hypotheses formulated? Does the researcher say, "I like lemurs" and set off willy-nilly into the wilds of Madagascar? No. S/he says, "I have observed that lemurs prefer unripe limes, therefore it is my hypothesis that there is either a key nutrient or pleasing taste to said unripe limes." Thus, his/her hypothesis is based on assumptions made from observations. And observations made by human beings are by their very nature subjective because they are simply the product of that human's perception of reality based on their individual experience. Hence, subjective beliefs lead to assumptions which lead to hypotheses which lead to research studies. Leonardo Da Vinci had the subjective belief that a mechanism with weird whirly-gigs flapping around on top of it might one day fly. And his subjective belief was correct. Obviously. Which is why/how it is that the Pentagon is paying my cousin to fly around Afghanistan in a mechanism with weird whirly-gigs flapping around on top of it. As far as your point on "what the research shows," please see the previous paragraph, re: research studies.

Similarly, you can believe that genetics plays no significant role for the obese, but the research tells us otherwise.

Some research may, yes. As I said, I have yet to tackle your generous list of sources. But some research may dispute that -- it's been a long day and I haven't had the chance to look into that, but perhaps I will. NEVERTHELESS, and as I've said (ad nauseum) before, obesity gene or no obesity gene, people can improve their health and the quality of their lives by changing their lifestyle. This has been proven again and again and again by individuals AND by reputable, independent clinical studies conducted by universities, research centers, non-profit organizations, and (GASP!) governments around the world. Suddenly discovering that (a) there is an obesity gene, and (b) you have it, does not mean you are destined to be obese for the rest of your life. Nor does it mean you should seek out a "medical" or quasi-medical solution. It means you should give yourself an honest chance to lose the weight naturally. If you have never been obese, you simply cannot understand the truly mindboggling path that lies before someone with a large amount of weight to lose. I was obese for nearly 10 years, and (for me at least) it was a horrible place to be. And if someone who is desperate to lose weight has no idea how to do it or has an utter lack of faith in themselves to do it "alone," then the idea of popping a pill sounds like the Holy Grail or the Yellow Brick Road to slenderville. And this is exactly what the diet pill industry counts on -- and CAPITALIZES on. They prey on vulnerable, discouraged people just to make a buck. And yes, I am "unfairly" applying a "stereotype" to an entire industry. Again. And I do so because I have no respect for corporations that wrap themselves in the guise of "health" and charge ungodly prices for questionable products that have the potential to cause health problems for the consumer.

Discount what you wish, but do so at the risk of being extremely incorrect.

I don't even know how to respond to this..."risk?" As in "to expose to hazard or danger?" Should I be expecting a midnight visit from the Thought Police or something? Is this China during the Cultural Revolution and therefore I should hide my laptop under a bathmat and burn my yoga DVDs lest I upset the diet pill industry's applecart?

Caffeine is thermogenic, stimulates wakefullness, is neuroprotective, and safe in moderate amounts. There's nothing "questionable" about this. Controlled research shows this to be the case.

True. In safe amounts, yes. Which is why I said "stuffing ourselves" with caffeine is not healthy. As in, popping Dexatrim like they're magical malted milk balls is not healthy.

Now if someone ODs on caffeine and messes themself up, that's an entirely different matter. But even then, the substance itself isn't questionable, the moron who ODed was questionable.

Unless the moron who ODed was taking a substance that contained caffeine in high amounts at the recommended dosage. Then the company that makes, markets, and sells the product is in fact questionable. And the moron/s.

Just like you should probably question your labeling of the entire supplement industry based on only some of the moronic companies. Only reasonable and fair, no?

Reasonable, fair, and done. I have questioned myself, re: my labeling of the entire supplement industry and have found both the labeling and myself to be quite satisfactory.

So why then can't you employ a similar reasoning and distinguish between good companies and bad companies instead of labeling the entire industry? Hmm. Criss-cross reasoning, it would seem.

Mostly because the entire premise behind the diet pill industry is flawed. Which -- I'm sure -- is a statement that will seriously tick you off as the industry is your bread and butter, so to speak. So yet again, I sense that neither of us will be experiencing a great conceptual epiphany or grand philosophical conversion on this topic. And if my reasoning seems "criss-cross[ed]" to you, then so be it. Your analysis of my reasoning is what it is -- yours. And despite the fact that you have been an interesting diversion, as well as a thought-provoking verbal sparing partner for me today, your personal opinions about my reasoning abilities are utterly irrelevent to me.

In other words, a perfect fat loss supplement.

Yup. I'll become a believer like you when a reputable, independent clinical study reports the discovery of a healthy, safe, permanent weight loss pill (and I see it in the New York Times). If I'm going to ingest ANY medication or OTC product, I want it to be as close to perfect as possible. Because it's MY body and I only want the very best for it.

I simply stated I worked for a supplement company.

Well, then you and I will either continue to bang heads until the 3FC server overloads and explodes, or we will have to agree to disagree. Clearly, you value your profession, will stand by it, and have a personal stake in the development, marketing, and sales of "supplements" and diet pills. And just as clearly, I have an altogether different view, and no stake in the industry whatsoever.

Sir Savage
10-22-2005, 09:33 PM
Wow, you have GOT to be a lawyer with the seletive reasoning process you use and your apparent love of debate. :dizzy:

Here is a possibly shocking, yet true fact: Bill Gates will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever break the world record in the 100 meter dash. EVER. Pump him full of the best anabolic, androgenic steroids science has to offer, put him on the best diet and training program possible, and he will still never come close. He simply does not have the genetics.

Genetics is a powerful thing. Dismiss it's power if you like, but that won't change the role that it plays.

Once again, for the nth time because you keep ignoring this part of my previous posts, I'm not saying genetics is the ONLY factor here in obesity, but I am saying it is certainly is a factor for some. So don't feel the need to restate again that someone overweight can do X, Y, and Z to help them lose weight. I know and agree.

It's pretty amazing, however, that you continue to hold your line despite the research I posted (which you admit you haven't read) and the fact that you really don't seem to know much about the other side of the supplement industry. You know, the good side, which you pretend doesn't exist because it doesn't jibe with your unreasonable position.

I go where the data and research lead me. Do I recognize the possibility that it might be incorrect? Of course. But you apparently do not even go where the research points. In fact, you haven't even read the research yet, so one has to wonder, why are you still debating? Your position may not hold any water, yet you keep going? Should you not read the research first before you dismiss something? That would be the most reasonable thing to do, yes?

So who is really the one stuck on preconceived notions, I wonder? The one who goes where the research says or the one who doesn't read the research and discounts it anyway?

Yup. I'll become a believer like you when a reputable, independent clinical study reports the discovery of a healthy, safe, permanent weight loss pill (and I see it in the New York Times). If I'm going to ingest ANY medication or OTC product, I want it to be as close to perfect as possible. Because it's MY body and I only want the very best for it.

And I really hope you see the absurdity of this on reflection.

If you want only the best for your body, better not drink alcohol or ingest a million other things because none of them meet your unreasonable standard.

For the record, there is PLENTY of research showing the effectiveness of things like caffeine, acetyl-L-carnitine, green tea, sesamin, and so forth, in terms of increasing metabolism and helping with weight loss.

But given your propensity to ignore research, I'm not surprised that you didn't know that.

I'm sure you a very nice lady but I really have no interest in discussing these matters with someone who does the intellectual salsa around important facts and research that contradicts their position. Accordingly, I am bowing out of this discussion, but I'm sure you'll dissect my post anyhow to inject the same ol' "up is down, right is left, genetics is a factor for you but not for me" argument. ;)

Yogini
10-22-2005, 09:40 PM
:angel: :jig: :listen: Diet Pills Suck. :joker: :strong: :lol:

LovesBassets
10-23-2005, 12:08 AM
I am bowing out of this discussion, but I'm sure you'll dissect my post anyhow to inject the same ol' "up is down, right is left, genetics is a factor for you but not for me" argument. ;)

You betcha I'm gonna dissect your post even though you're leaving -- because 3FC isn't about YOU. It's about discussion. And since you've provided some very juicy stuff -- not to mention made comments that are of the "baiting" variety and even a few that are flirting with the forbidden "personal attack" zone -- I shall discuss it with myself for a while. And with the one or two profoundly bored souls who may still be reading this never-ending thread from :censored: . I'm a Virgo. And we don't like loose ends.

Besides, you may just get the urge to come back later and lurk -- and I wouldn't want to leave you hanging. :)

Wow, you have GOT to be a lawyer with the seletive reasoning process you use and your apparent love of debate. :dizzy:

Nope. I believe I already mentioned the whole vet clinic, doggie daycare, tutoring thing. And the info that I don’t generally toss out into the public domain is that I am also a writer -- hence, my "apparent love of debate" using the written word. And in answer to your relatively obvious next question/slam/jab...yes, I am published. And yes, by a real publishing house. For real money. And as such, I find dabbling with words and ideas to be great fun and generally quite rewarding.

Here is a possibly shocking, yet true fact: Bill Gates will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever break the world record in the 100 meter dash. EVER. Pump him full of the best anabolic, androgenic steroids science has to offer, put him on the best diet and training program possible, and he will still never come close. He simply does not have the genetics.

Poor Bill (is the only response I can possibly give -- I guess?).

Genetics is a powerful thing. Dismiss it's power if you like, but that won't change the role that it plays.

I don't recall dismissing the entire science of genetics. I DO recall dismissing genetics as a valid excuse for being (and STAYING) overweight or obese. In fact, I believe I revealed that my particular cross to bear in life is bunions. Which are genetic. Which I said already. A gazillion posts ago.

I'm not saying genetics is the ONLY factor here in obesity, but I am saying it is certainly is a factor for some. So don't feel the need to restate again that someone overweight can do X, Y, and Z to help them lose weight. I know and agree.

I'm glad we agree :). There may be hope for us yet.

It's pretty amazing, however, that you continue to hold your line despite the research I posted (which you admit you haven't read)

As surprising as this may sound, I do have other obligations and interests outside this thread. I haven't read the research yet because of the aforementioned obligations and interests.

and the fact that you really don't seem to know much about the other side of the supplement industry. You know, the good side, which you pretend doesn't exist because it doesn't jibe with your unreasonable position.

You really are taking this a bit personally, Sir. I'm just a nameless stranger wandering around the same server as you, and yet you are positively rabid over my alleged "unreasonable" thoughts, opinions, and beliefs.

you apparently do not even go where the research points. In fact, you haven't even read the research yet, so one has to wonder, why are you still debating? Your position may not hold any water, yet you keep going? Should you not read the research first before you dismiss something? That would be the most reasonable thing to do, yes?

If I were arguing this before the U.S. Supreme Court, yes it would be quite reasonable. But this is a WEBSITE for Pete's sake. I have neither the time nor the inclination right now to read your sources. But rest assured, I am intrigued. And I WILL be looking at them. Just on my schedule, not yours.

So who is really the one stuck on preconceived notions, I wonder? The one who goes where the research says or the one who doesn't read the research and discounts it anyway?

Rhetorical question, obviously.

And I really hope you see the absurdity of this on reflection.

Ah. Nope. Still don't see it. Perhaps it's because I'm not "genetically gifted" enough to have the appropriate absurd-o-meter in my Neanderthal-like brain :dizzy: . Or perhaps you are overly accustomed to people agreeing with you. Which I do not. Somewhat obviously.

If you want only the best for your body, better not drink alcohol or ingest a million other things because none of them meet your unreasonable standard.

It is not unreasonable to be mindful of what you put in your body.

For the record, there is PLENTY of research showing the effectiveness of things like caffeine, acetyl-L-carnitine, green tea, sesamin, and so forth, in terms of increasing metabolism and helping with weight loss.

That may be so, and I wish people all the best if they try these products. I simply won't be one of them. Well, except for the caffeine (which I prefer in tea-form, not pill-form, BTW). I do not, however, slather my “problem areas” with powdered caffeine in an asine attempt to “spot reduce” my remaining bits of flab. Which -- ridiculous as it may sound -- is exactly the type of product marketed and sold by some of these “supplement” companies.

But given your propensity to ignore research, I'm not surprised that you didn't know that.

"Propensity?" That's quite an assumption considering you didn't even know I existed until quite recently. And -- somewhat ironically -- 85% of my work as a writer IS research. Admittedly, I have a propensity to prioritize my life in such a way that the requests and wishes of total strangers fall somewhere between watching my grass grow and de-linting the hall carpet by hand. And since you brought up something you're "not surprised" about, I'd like to add my own lack of surprise at the fact that your comments are steadily disintegrating into poorly-veiled personal attacks.

I'm sure you a very nice lady but I really have no interest in discussing these matters with someone who does the intellectual salsa around important facts and research that contradicts their position.

I'm sure you're a very nice gentleman, as well, and I'm also quite certain you will find (or have already found) many individuals who agree with you 100% on all of your points. And if that sort of discussion better suits you, then I wish you well. Oh, and BTW, I can't salsa. But I can do a mean merengue.

And and one last "dissection" before I put the puppies to bed...

I, on the other hand, am genetically gifted. I've been very muscular from day one. I'm one of those people who can just look at a weight and gain five solid pounds of muscle.

Wow. Have they isolated that gene yet?

Amarantha2
10-23-2005, 03:26 AM
I, for one, would not definitely rule out Bill Gates in the 100-meter dash.

happydaisy
10-23-2005, 05:55 AM
Umm I couldn't find a butt-kickin' one but what about this one.

http://www.mazeguy.net/silly/fryingpan.gif


Very nice! :lol:

carla49
10-23-2005, 10:46 AM
Squabble, squabble, squabble! I may be genetically programmed to interfere, but the more I watch the two of you flirt, the more I think it's about time for you to just GET A ROOM! The idea of our Savage's many, many, many pounds of solid muscle (who knows how many times he's looked at that darned weight?) comingling with the lovely merengue-dancing Bassett (who is, we are assured, a "very nice lady" - a compliment that would make any woman hot and bothered) just gets me all :censored:...

carla49
10-23-2005, 11:23 AM
On a more serious note, a few years ago I was prescribed Pondimin, which I believe is the Canadian version of Phen. I was on it for about 6 weeks, and was AMAZED!!! It made me totally indifferent to food. (German chocolate cake? Hmmm.... maybe later....) I've never had that attitude to any ingestable before or since. BUT - and it's a big but - I slept an extra 4 or 5 hours a day, dropping off whenever I got into a comfortable chair or couch. And even worse, I was in a mental fog ALL THE TIME. So given a choice between quitting my job (which requires mental acuity and considerable concentration) and being effortlessly slim, I chose to be employed. Today, many pounds heavier, I'm slightly tempted to go the drug route again, but in spite of my advanced age am not quite ready to retire. I also have a little voice in the back of my head that really doesn't think anything that can make someone as groggy as that drug did can be anything but harmful.

Yikes! Gotta get washed, dressed, and off to work.

And by the way, I did love the way we were all so easily diverted from a "serious" debate by the mention of Nemo cakes. I think Pavlov should do a study on us fat chicks and our programmed response to the word "cake"... from beyond the grave, of course. I know he's only with us in spirit.

aprildawn
10-23-2005, 01:02 PM
Well, well, this has been quite a debate going on. When I read the subject line before coming in to this room, I thought I was going to read about diet pills, and somewhere I did. Actually I lose concentration easily so I ran through the debatesssssssssssss till I found someone talking about Pondimin. I took that several years ago, I am 5'9" and had got to 298 pounds. My mother was concerned I would die of a heart attack I was so heavy. Yes, I was concerned to, but I had other health issues and wasnt sure about taking Pondimin or not. I talked to a WIC nurse-Women, Infant, and Children, she was a coworker of mine, she said it was sort of like a catch22 at the point I was at, the drug could be a problem, she didnt know but also the fact I was so heavy was dangerous too, so her advise like it should be was to go to a doctor, so I went to a doctor, got on the drug, lost 65 pounds which was making me feel good, I was able to climb stairs and walk easier then they had people with problems with the drug. The took the drug off the market or at least where I live and had me take a heart test. I was a very fortunate one, had no side effects, took all the tests to make sure, but I gained back the weight I had lost and got to 283 1/4 pounds. I decided to try Weight Watchers again for the third time, this time I did it for a reason, to be healthier, not for a baby shower, wedding or my husband, I did it for my health. My brother was diagnosed as a diabetic and I knew it was a possibilty that I could become diabetic so I was tested. The doctor said I was not diabetic, so I asked why do I have blurry vision, the doctor said it was because I have low blood sugar which can develop into diabetes. I changed my way of eating, I eat alot of sugarfree, low sugar, fatfree and low fat now. I am now a lifetime member of Weight Watchers. I have lost a total of 130 pounds since I started the 3rd time. Diet Pills can help as a short fix. I dont think they are the answer for the rest of your life. I dont say one diet program is better than the other. Changing the way of eating, portion control, I think is the key. I know every individual will find the way of eating, I hate to say diet, its a way of life, everyone will find the right way for them. If anyone has Yahoo Messenger, feel free to add me to theirs. I would glad to be your buddy. My signature id is cowgirl73160.

Thanks for the interesting reading I love this website. Back to my dominoe games!!

Thanks,
Lisa

MrsJim
10-23-2005, 01:08 PM
LovesBassets - 4; Sir Savage - ZIP. :lol:

You might as well give it up, Sir Loin of Beef. ;) especially if your ulterior motive was - as I suspect - to peddle your wares to our members. Over the past five years or so here at 3FC, I've found your ilk generally has an ulterior motive...no wonder you say things like "the FDA doesn't have our best interests in mind" "OUR" of course meaning your company...yes?

Of course because of the Dietary Supplement Act of 1994 (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dietsupp.html) your ilk is pretty much free to run rampant with overblown and/or unsubstantiated claims on infomercials and websites - often scamming unknowing people through snakeoil marketing. Here at 3FC, we're doing what we can to keep people from throwing their money away on these often-useless products, which I'm sure ticks you off...oh well...ttfn :jig:

MrsJim
10-23-2005, 01:16 PM
Regarding PONDIMIN...it is/was *not* the Canadian version of Phentermine - rather it is the dangerous "Fen" part of Phen-Fen - and was taken off the market around 1997 (http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/phen/fenphenqa2.htm) - at least in the US (along with Redux).

However, I tend to believe that it was pulled worldwide.

There's an interesting book titled "Dispensing with the Truth (http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/05/16/mundy_q_a/)" that I read a few years ago, about the Phen-Fen debacle. After reading what the victims went through, I wouldn't touch Pondimin with a 60-foot pole, myself...

carla49
10-23-2005, 02:08 PM
Thanks for the correction re Pondimin, Mrs Jim. I guess it's too late to join the class action suit? :( For some reason I thought the other half of Phen-Fen was not so much for weight loss as to keep you awake enough to swallow the Pondimin :lol: ) Part of my confusion is because (I think) the combo was not approved in Canada. Does Phen also make you sleepy and fuzzy?

And just BTW, much as I dream of a magic, no side-effects, perfectly safe diet pill, I know perfectly well that only a lifestyle change will work in the long run. :kickcan: But it sure was an eye-opener to (briefly) know what some of my skinny friends were feeling when they turned down goodies or ate only half of something because they "weren't hungry anymore". What a concept. I already knew about not being hungry, but had never understood not wanting to eat good things just because they were there... Maybe they're the ones with the genetic abnormality? Sort of like those mutants who think an Ironman Triathlon is for sissies, and who want to do a triple Ironman? (My apologies to any of you who think "mutant" is a little excessive...)

LovesBassets
10-23-2005, 02:37 PM
but the more I watch the two of you flirt, the more I think it's about time for you to just GET A ROOM! The idea of our Savage's many, many, many pounds of solid muscle (who knows how many times he's looked at that darned weight?) comingling with the lovely merengue-dancing Bassett (who is, we are assured, a "very nice lady" - a compliment that would make any woman hot and bothered) just gets me all :censored:...

RFLMAO, Carla...that is a TRULY disturbing thought. :yikes:

Amarantha2
10-23-2005, 02:41 PM
... And by the way, I did love the way we were all so easily diverted from a "serious" debate by the mention of Nemo cakes. I think Pavlov should do a study on us fat chicks and our programmed response to the word "cake"... from beyond the grave, of course. I know he's only with us in spirit.

I did not actually mean to divert anyone from the "serious" debate. I thought I was making a point.

Sir Savage
10-23-2005, 02:49 PM
Bassetts, I didn't commit any ad hominems, thinly veiled or otherwise. No name calling, nothin'. I'm also not upset. I'm good like gravy, know what I'm saying there, Cheech?

LovesBassets - 4; Sir Savage - ZIP. :lol:

Jigga' what?

Wow, I didn't realize I was that far behind! With that score, you would think that I were the one not reading the research.

Swish!

You might as well give it up, Sir Loin of Beef. ;)

Oh I definitely have. I don't pick on unarmed people!

When she actually reads the research, then maybe we'll be able to discuss it further. Maybe. She's quite shifty, that one. Back and forth with the positions and whatnot.

But I am quite beefy, though. 'Specially my loin.

Hey, you said it, not me!

Bwahahahahaha!

especially if your ulterior motive was - as I suspect - to peddle your wares to our members. Over the past five years or so here at 3FC, I've found your ilk generally has an ulterior motive...no wonder you say things like "the FDA doesn't have our best interests in mind" "OUR" of course meaning your company...yes?

No, "our" meaning "the people of this country".

Scams need to be caught and shut down, sure, but the people's right to choose alternative courses of treatment should not be shut down along with them.

Of course because of the Dietary Supplement Act of 1994 (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dietsupp.html) your ilk is pretty much free to run rampant with overblown and/or unsubstantiated claims on infomercials and websites - often scamming unknowing people through snakeoil marketing. Here at 3FC, we're doing what we can to keep people from throwing their money away on these often-useless products, which I'm sure ticks you off...oh well...ttfn :jig:

Word? It ticks me off?

Hmmm. Well I guess it would if I had something to do with an unscrupulous company that sells snakeoil and I found myself suddenly unable to sell the afforementioned snakeoil because the FDA shut down my scam.

But I guess since I don't, it don't.

BTW, I can't get the smilies to appear. You sellin' snakeoil smilies here?! Why I oughtta'...!

Sir Savage
10-23-2005, 03:00 PM
I, for one, would not definitely rule out Bill Gates in the 100-meter dash.

Yeah. The guy is a superb physical specimen.

He'd probably set the world record for "most number of times tripping over his own spikes out of the starting blocks".

:tread:

Suzanne 3FC
10-23-2005, 04:06 PM
Well as entertaining as this thread has been, it's time to call it a day :) In the end, let's remember a few important details, please. First, this website is here to support weight loss through a healthy diet and exercise program, without the use of OTC diet pills. Period. If someone does have medical reasons for weight problems, we suggest they speak to their doctor promptly (preferably a doctor that specializes in obesity) and take their suggestions, whether it includes beefing up their diets or going on a strictly monitored prescription diet regimen. Your health is not something to screw around with. If you think you need to take something, take your doctors advice.

Thanks, everyone, for your participation in this topic. Have a nice OP day :)