[goeatanapple]

Hey ladies and gents!

As I mentioned in the weekly thread, I've been talking seriously with my brother-in-law who is a personal trainer and a serious lifter. He's recently qualified and has been lifting for years. Due to what he's learnt in his course, he's gained an awesome understanding about the science involved and has taken his lifting to an amazing level - in the last 12 months, he's gone from kinda muscular/kinda chubby to SERIOUSLY buff with the HUGEST MUSCLES I'VE EVER SEEN IN REAL LIFE. And that includes some of the guys at my gym who I swear are roid freaks. He's only ever taken a few drugs (legal in the US but not legal here) awhile ago and he gave them up in disgust, preferring the more natural approach.

So, here's what he's given me: (I've shuffled the days to fit in with my shedule):

This program is for pretty serious muscle gain and strength. Which is what I want. As well as accounting for fat loss.

Monday: Cardio (1 hr + at maximum revs!!)
Tuesday: Push (upper body weights)
Wednesday: Off
Thursday: Pull (more upper body weights)
Friday: Off
Saturday: Legs (concentrating on lower body)
Sunday: Off

*On some of my off days, I'd probably do a little light cardio at home.

The keys are here:
a) Having cardio on a day ALL BY ITSELF. No weights on that day. A rest day before hand. Upper body work on the next day, no legs!! According to my BIL, for many people it's not a good idea to do a serious cardio session on the same day as lifting weights. Some of you may find that it doesn't affect you, but for me, my body so SO shagged out from doing weights (especially legs) that I really don't get much out of my cardio at all. I have been thinking about cardio, and my BIL says that it's all to do with balance: Body builders do no cardio. Women who want to be skinny and lean do a shedload of cardio but little weights. He says that, for my goals, a session of 1hr a week (hardcore) should be sufficient, but that I may find I need to do a little more. Which is why I will do some light cardio on my days "off." I am also toying with the idea of, instead of doing light cardio on my days off, doing a ten-minute session EVERY morning to get my system revving. Will see.
b) My BIL says that the best way to work a muscle is to work it hard, and then rest it for at least four or five days. At the moment, I am often only getting 1 day's rest between sessions, and even less sometimes.
c) Further to that, he suggests a warm-up set of 60% of what you intend to start lifting.
d) Lifting to fatigue on EVERY set, 3 sets 6-8 reps. (He said it was up to me if I wanted to continue doing 12 reps)

More details: (some of these I don't actually know how to do so he's gonna show me)

PUSH
Bench Press with Barbell
Incline DB Press
Dips
Tricep Dumbell over head raises

PULL
Seated cable rows
front, close grip lat pulldowns
standing barbell upright rows
Dumbell alternate curls

LEGS
45 degree leg press
Dumbell squats
Laying leg curls
One leg calf raises

This program sits in with my needs and is much less time intensive than my current program (3 x a week: 45 minute cardio, all upper body, all lower body on same day!!)

What do you all think?

[funniegrrl]

Well if he's built himself as you say, obviously it works for him. But, I also know that a lot of men have two serious flaws in their workout routine: Not enough cardio, and too much emphasis on upper body at the expense of lower body. And, most women have one major serious flaw in theirs: Thinking cardio will do it all, and either doing no weights or not enough weight. So ...

I probably would do (and DO do, when I'm consistent) something in between the two. For example, getting at least 48 hours between workouts for a muscle group is mandatory for me, but I don't go so far as resting 4 or 5 days. I agree that I don't do my heavy cardio on days that I weight train. Remember, though, that cardio is about more than burning calories -- it's about cardio-vascular health (hence the name). The standard formula is at least 20 minutes in your target heart rate zone at least 3 times per week, so I would AT LEAST get that much in, else you are shorting yourself on a major health and fitness benefit. The push/pull thing has merit. The idea of warming up with 60% of failure weight has merit. However, a recent study has shown that the benefits of doing 3 sets are marginal compared to 2 sets -- they're there, but not nearly as great as the difference between 1 and 2 sets. (And, it's also been shown that the gains from working a muscle group 3 times per week are minimal compared to twice per week.)

All of that to say ... it depends on what your goals are, and how your body responds compared to his. But, if it appeals to you, doesn't hurt to try.

[nelie]

Your brother in law has a typical type body builder workout which is basically what I have. I have a push day (chest and triceps), pull day (back and biceps), leg day then shoulder day. I also put abs in there somewhere. I also make sure I have 4-5 days at least usually 6-7 between working the same group. Considering that I can be sore for 3 days or so, it wouldn't do to do the same muscle group from 3-4 days.

I also used to go for fatigue on every set, but I switched it to having 2 build up sets (or warm up sets) then 2 fatigue sets. I like that a lot more.

Oh also.. I add in cardio where I can, but my concentration is on weight lifting because frankly I like it a lot more, it makes me sweat and gets my heart rate up.

I would try the program he shows you then you can tweak it to your own needs.

[mette]

I’m just wondering what the rationale behind having one pull day and one push day is??
I don’t think I do that, I do a 3-day split, and - for instance - one of my days look like this: bench press (push), one arm dumbbells rows (that would be pull?), biceps curls (pull?) and triceps extensions (pull)…
I mix pushing and pulling exercises the other 2 days too.

[Meg]

My two cents —

SPLITS
I agree that three days a week of cardio AND a full-body workout isn’t the best way to go. It’s too much to do in one day and it’s working your whole body too often. Most people divide up their workouts so that they’re working one or two body parts at a time. That way there’s a week between doing each muscle GROUP even if you're working out four or five days/week (you don’t need to rest your whole body for a minimum of 48 hours between workouts — only each muscle group ).

If you want to switch, there’s a thousand different ways to split up your workouts. My personal favorite is a five-day split of back, shoulders, chest, arms (bi’s and tri’s), and legs — that’s standard at my gym for whatever reason. Usually I’ll do 4 – 5 exercises per muscle group and 3 - 4 sets of each exercise, so between 16 and 24 sets per workout. Nelie uses a typical four-day split and Mette's doing a three-day split. Your BIL has you on a three-day split also: chest and tri’s on Day One; back, shoulders, and bi’s on Day Two; and legs on Day Three.

When I look at your plan, my concern is that you’re not doing very many exercises for the different muscle groups — each week you’re doing two for chest, two for tri’s, two for back, only one each for shoulders and bi’s, three for legs, one for calves and no abs. So, at three sets per exercise, you’re only doing three sets of bi’s and shoulders per WEEK, only six of back and tri’s etc. To me (and it’s strictly my opinion), that’s not enough for a week. I’m guessing that this isn’t the workout that your BIL does himself?

Just to give you a contrasting perspective (and please let me emphasize there isn’t any right or wrong in this) — I did back yesterday:

4 sets lat pull downs
4 sets seated cable rows
4 sets bent over BB rows
3 sets T bar rows
3 sets DB pullovers
3 sets deadlifts

We both have lat pull downs and cable rows on our splits, but mine went on to add four other back exercises. It will be a week before I do back again, so those muscles will have plenty of recovery time.

Sooo …. my opinion is that you might want to add in a few more exercises and/or sets as you get comfortable with this workout so to emphasize each muscle group a little more.

CARDIO
I agree with Funniegrrl about the cardio. My opinion is that an hour of cardio/week isn’t going to cut it either for fat-burning or general cardiovascular health. You can try it this way and see how your body reacts, but may find that you need to kick it up to get rid of the fat.

I did an hour of cardio per day (along with the weights, of course) for the year that I was losing and still do 45 minutes to a hour/day, every day. For me it was/is necessary to lose the fat and to keep it off (I’m older and hypothyroid, so I’m sure that plays a part). If you're going to stick with a three-day split, perhaps you could use three other days as cardio only days and rest on the last one? Your ten minutes of cardio idea is an excellent one for warming up before weights but wouldn't be sustained enough to do much for either fat burning or cardiovascular fitness.

Other than those comments, it looks great! You’re fortunate to have a BIL who can give you so much help and guidance. Let us know how it goes for you.

[goeatanapple]

Yeah, my only concern about it was the amount of cardio, but he said that's essentially up to me so I probably will continue to do cardio on my "rest" days ... just as long as I don't do cardio on my lift days, and definitely NO cardio after legs.

So it would be something like this:

Monday: Cardio (1 hr + at maximum revs!!)
Tuesday: Push (upper body weights)
Wednesday: Off - cardio at home
Thursday: Pull (more upper body weights)
Friday: Off - cardio at home
Saturday: Legs (concentrating on lower body)
Sunday: Off (very gentle cardio or no cardio, total rest day)

Yep, THAT'S much better. No cardio after legs, no cardio BEFORE gym cardio day. My mind just wasn't going to rest about the whole cardio thing (I have an elliptical machine & mini tramp at home both of which are great for working up a sweat!!) ... when I join a gym closer to home, I may include another cardio session actually at the gym & go 5 times a week.

The program he wrote is not the programme he does himself (it is written for me and my needs plus he's way more advanced than me) but the basis is the same - he himself only does his exercises once a week ... he said some people can get away with four or five days rest between certain exercises.

"That way there’s a week between doing each muscle GROUP even if you're working out four or five days/week (you don’t need to rest your whole body for a minimum of 48 hours between workouts — only each muscle group )."

I'd still be doing weights 3 x a week, plus 1 x cardio session at the gym, so I'd actually be going to the gym four times a week instead of three.

I think I'll see how it goes with the once-a-week per exercise - the beauty about any programme is that you can change it as you go!

I was just finding that, come Friday each week, I was too exhausted by my weekly routine to function in my life. Instead of going and having fun with my friends, I just wanted to sit at home and get an early night! I was also finding that on my off days between going to the gym, my poor bod wasn't much good for cardio at all (legs working out almost all the time)! I personally believe it's better to do 12 different lifting exercises rather than doing the same 4 exercises 3 times each, if I am lifting much heavier weights ... and I am, I did the last day of my old exercises today (no cardio) and lifted some pretty good amounts!!

I think it's the whole trying to fit in 45 minutes of cardio and all my weights into three sessions all together each week. No more of that! Jury's out on how many times a week I'll do each exercise, we'll see!!

PS. BIL does NO crunches or direct ab work, and you should see his abs!! (I am not sure which exercises they are, but certain lifting exercises will give you strong abs). Again, that's another thing I can ad in myself if I want to. Not sure.

[goeatanapple]

Heck, I might as well just keep the fitball crunches (I only do them 3 x a week anyway) ... I can do them on my weights days

So ...


Monday: Cardio (1 hr + at maximum revs!!)
Tuesday: Push (upper body weights) + 1 abs exercise
Wednesday: Off - cardio at home
Thursday: Pull (more upper body weights) + 1 abs exercise
Friday: Off - cardio at home
Saturday: Legs (concentrating on lower body) + 1 abs exercise
Sunday: Off (very gentle cardio or no cardio, total rest day)

[Mel]

Don't compare male bodybuilders to women trying to lose weight. Most female competitors do at least an hour of cardio a day, usually in 2 sessions, to keep their body fat low enough. As you or someone else said, a lot of male body builders do NONE and stay ripped. Same with ab work.

I think the split looks fine: I personally don't enjout the "push-pull" method (see abcbodybuilding.com for further explanations of it), but plenty use it.

I've just gone from a 4 day split, to a 5 day so that I have time to fit in more cardio. I'm aiming for 5 days a week. Never on leg day, and 1 full day of rest. My split now looks like Meg's, so I lift 1 muscle group per day over 5 days in a 7 day period.

I also agree that you nmight not be doing enough exercises per body part. At the minimum, for any exercise I try and do a 1 arm version as well as an arms together version. Same with legs. For example, if I'm doing shoulders, I'll do an upright row with a bar, then also sets of seated dumbbell presses, forcing each arm to do equal work. This way, if you are stronger on one side, you can't get away with letting the stronger side do more of the work- it's totally unconscious, and will result in more strength imbalance.

Regarding the number of reps: 6-8 reps in considered a low volumn, heavy training range. Going to failure at this low a rep count is for people who are trying to put on mass. Big mass. They also tend to rest longer between sets. For women who are NOT competitors, I like to keep the reps between 10-15 for lower body, and 10-12 for upper. Usually our aim is to build enough muscle to be strong, lean, and burn more fat. Not necessarily to build boulder shoulders. I know most of us don't have the hormones to build huge mass naturally, but it just seems to work well this way. Does your BIL train a lot of women or mostly men?

I think the basic idea of what he's laid out for you is fine- I'd definitly get away from all those full body workouts, but for women who want to lose weight as well as gain muscle, I think you need more cardio than a guy! They can get away with it, we cant

Mel

[lj_cox]

It looks pretty good to me (one civilian's opinion ); the (ok, one of the) extremely cool things about weight training is that you want to shake up your program about every 6 weeks anyway, so try this for 6 weeks and see if you are getting to where you want to be.

Personally, I'm a total dinosaur, and do a whole body routine about twice a week. Working one body part a week is a bit light for my body at this time but I know people who swear by it.

Linda C.

[Meg]

Personally, I'm a total dinosaur, and do a whole body routine about twice a week. Working one body part a week is a bit light for my body at this time but I know people who swear by it.

Yikes -- would something like my back workout be light for you? Wow -- that was a heavy workout for me and I don't think that I could manage it more than once a week. Holy cow, girl, what do your workouts look like? -- please share!

[goeatanapple]

Yeah, I did raise the whole cardio thing with him - and he said that that part is up to me, and that it would be a minimum of 1hour a week, and the actual amount to be determined by me (how much time I have, how the results are going etc)

I will see how it all goes ... as mentioned above, you do change your programme every 6 weeks so we'll see. I just want to move to the split model, and work out the actual logistics for myself, ESPECIALLY once I start my own PT training, then I'll be able to refine it to exactly what I want with the knowledge behind me to do so.

[lj_cox]

Oh no! I consider your workout INTENSE!! And much more than I do!

No, looking at the suggested routine above, I'd prefer to work each bodypart twice a week under that regime, dividing the leg work up and adding it into the other two days for a two day split. I don't do nearly the number of either exercises or sets that you guys (people doing 4-5 day splits) do.

The issues for me are that I've tried splits and wound up overtraining and injuring myself. I don't want to take the time to get in to the gym 5 times a week; my cardio is either gym time or walking depending on my schedule, so I only really need to hit the gym twice a week. I don't like being sore, and I fear if I worked out with sufficient intensity to only work each bodypart once a week (doing something more like your routine), I'd be so sore that I'd stop going at all.

The ideal routine for me is weights Mon. and Fri, 40 minutes cardio (anything from a walk in the local park to 40 minutes high intensity on the bikes at the gym) Tues. and Sat., and power yoga Wed. (I consider power yoga to equate to a light weights workout.) Thursday off. At the moment I'm skipping the yoga until my back heals fully, and so the weights days are every three days. Weights, two days of cardio or one cardio one rest, weights. I've had to really revise my lower body workout to get around the sore lower back, but as soon as possible I'm going back to this routine:

10 minutes aerobic warmup (bike, rower or treadmill depending on mood)
Wide grip pullups 2 sets
Narrow grip pullups 2 sets
Dumbell bench press 3 sets
Dips 2 sets
Seated milpress 2 sets
Dumbell rows 2 sets
Squats 3 sets
Half-squats (heavy weight) 3 sets 8 reps each
Straight-leg deadlift 2 sets
Calf raise 2 sets
Back extensions 2 sets
5 minutes various abs exercises (mix it up, 15 reps per)

First set 10-12 reps, second set 6 to 10 reps, third set 4 to 8 reps.

At the moment all the leg and back work is being done on the machines: reclining leg press (to take most of the back out of it) and leg curls and extensions.

As you can see I prefer compound to isolation exercises, and hate bicep curls. All the pullup and dip work is assisted (for now.. hehe) It's working very well for me now, weights are going up steadily and I'm pleased with my appearance.

Now, if you want berserk..

My husband's doing a four day cycle, two days of GVT -- one day upper, one day lower body (3 warmup sets, 10 sets of 8 reps at 70% of 1RM for the major lifts) followed by isolation work, then one rest day, then two days of max effort, upper body and lower body (3 warmup sets, 4 working sets at 80-90% 1RM, 3 sets at 90% 1RM or better, finishing set for the major lifts), then isolation work to "polish himself off", then weekends off.

He thinks a good day is when you want to puke 2 or 3 times during a workout. I think he's

But he used to powerlift, and is enjoying getting back into it. And his weights are shooting up.

Just goes to show you, looking at this thread, there are LOTS of good ways to workout. I really enjoy reading what other people are doing; lots of good ideas for when I want to try something new.

Linda C.

[MrsJim]

Just a quick two cents from moi:

I've done a LOT of different types of splits since I started weight training in 2001. (doesn't seem that long ago - I'm getting old I guess!) At the beginning of summer, I started doing the one-bodypart-each-day thing. I wouldn't say it's 'easier' - actually for me it's been great to be able to concentrate on one bodypart each day, and I find I'm working them harder, plus (a bonus for me these days with my ultra-busy schedule) I get my workout done in less time ('cept for legs). I generally spend an hour at the gym - 30 minutes for weight training and 30 minutes for cardio, then maybe 10 minutes doing floor stuff like stretching and a few yoga/Pilates moves:

Monday - back (cardio)
Tuesday - chest (cardio) (PM: Riding lesson & Pilates)
Weds - Legs
Thurs - Bis/Tris (cardio)
Fri - Shoulders (cardio) (Spinning if time available) (PM - riding/Pilates)
Sat - cardio (Riding lesson)
Sun - optional cardio (PM - Yoga)

Since I do Pilates and yoga, I've pretty much eliminated working abs in the gym. Trust me - Pilates is more than enough of an abs workout

I noticed for shoulders, you only have one exercise listed - uprights. That might be okay for your BIL - but uprights (although they are a great exercise) only work one part of the shoulders. I believe it's necessary to hit the muscles from different angles - here's what I did yesterday for shoulders:

Warmed up with some light rotator cuff exercises at the cable station.

Side lateral raises (using the cable station again).

Moved to the dumbbells and did front raises, supersetted with lying delt raises.

Overhead presses.

Shrugs.

Some stretching and then cardio!

[Meg]

He thinks a good day is when you want to puke 2 or 3 times during a workout. I think he's

I know some folks like that too -- they like to brag how they do a set of leg press, puke, then come back to do another set. It must be a guy thing!

Thanks for sharing what you do (Karen too! ) -- I also really like to read what everyone's doing. Since we all know the key is to keep changing it up, this gives me lots of new ideas. On the topic of new ideas, I've read about occasionally doing ONE exercise per body part per day (like squats) -- just tons of sets, until you want to die (or puke ). Or a whole week of low weights, high reps. Or vice versa. One thing I try to do is make sure that I never repeat the same workout, even if all I do is vary a hand grip or the order of the exercises. I like to switch up the exercises -- if I do DB chest press one week, then I do BB the next week or if it's DB curls one week, then cable curls the next.

Karen -- I totally agree on Pilates and abs. My abs still don't know what hit them since I started Pilates!

[goeatanapple]

LOL on the whole puking thing ... BIL overheard a PT telling a WOMAN that she wasn't doing it right unless she puked once a day!! Naturally that PT didn't last very long!! :|

It's all in finding out what's right for YOU ... I am going to get imput from another PT and have him suggest more exercises so I can pick the ones I want to do. Either way, I want to do a split routine, it's just a matter of finding out what I want to do - and if it is lacking in 1 set of muscles or another, some tweaking can be done ...