The comment in the news section about feeling a certain relief about Ephedra being outlawed makes me FURIOUS!!! I am a clinical Herbalist and I feel that I am duty bound to stick up for Ephedra. Yes, using Ephedra as a diet aid can be dangerous, and it should not be used as such ( It was not intended to be, and was not used that way until fairly recently). That being said, Ephedra is one of the most important respiratory herbs that there is. It had been safely used for many years until it hit the mainstream as a diet aid. I had a friend that was having an asthma attack so severe that he was blacking out, and upon administration of a small amount of Ephedra he was breathing normally within ten minutes! I know that what is done is done, but there are larger implications at work here. Where will the goverment stop? At what point will enough be enough? Our rights are being comprimised!!! Just a little FYI- Roughly 800,000 Americans are either hospitilized or killed by side effects of prescription meds EVERY YEAR!!! Guess how many Americans die from the use of herbs and supplements every year? Usually not even one!
I am not usually big on "conspiracy theories", but this is just something to think about. Pharmcutical drug companies are among the most powerful forces at work in our country, as well as probably being the richest corperations in the world. Last time I checked, you cannot patent a plant, vitamin or mineral, so is it not in the pharmcutical company's best interest to discourage the average consumer from taking a empowered approach to their health? With all of the power/money that these companies have at their disposal, it will be easy for them to frighten people away from using natural means to achieve health. Despite the statistical proof that you are in much more danger with prescription meds!
Of course you can hurt yourself using an herb or supplement, if you try. And there are herb/supplement/prescription drug interactions. This is why it is a good idea to be working with an herbalist or holistic nutritionist the same way you would work with a doctor. I know that I am rambling here, but it is important to see that outlawing Ephedra is just the beginning unless we learn to stick up for our right to seek safe, affordable options for our health! It is not that I think that prescription meds are bad. I know that there are many people that are helped and even kept alive because of them. But I just want people to have the option to choose! I think that many holistic practitioners will agree that many of the people that we see come to us because conventional medicine has failed them. And they are healing themselves! If we continue down this path that the Ephedra ban has laid out, soon we will not have any choices. And that will just be sad.
P.S.--There ARE dangerous supplements. Just wait until the side effects from carb blockers are realized. Bad news. :(
01-27-2004, 01:36 PM
My friend just died who was using herbal remedies to treat breast cancer. Guess you guys aren't God after all. Thanks to everyone who worked to have Ephedra banned and I hope they continue. You people are doing real harm.
01-29-2004, 11:35 AM
The government or the FDA don't step in to ban anything - until enough people have died from it.
The pharmaceutical companies are not conspiring anything, IMO. What they do is called "capitalism and free trade." Works for me! Unless you have a clue about the billions of dollars the pharmas spend on research and development, versus vitamin and herbal producers, don't believe what some may lead you to believe without your own adequate reseach and crtical thinking. Just because you read it on the internet, doesn't mean it's true. There's much litter on the "information highway."
Just my 2 cents.
01-30-2004, 05:34 AM
And here's my 2 cents---Ephedra has been mass marketed. People have either died, or suffered from heart attacks and strokes because some manufacturers do not place any warning labels on their packages. Why?? Because there is no regulation on holistic and herbal remidies. So people think " hey--if one pill works, I wonder what 2 will do". This includes the manufacturers. Many people take diet suppliments for the "buzz" -- the energy. Too many people have been hurt by using Ephedra because they didn't know.
What's the solution? Maybe the FDA needs to regulate things a bit more. Does this mean the prescription solutions are better. Absolutely not. Can we say Phen-fen?? Ephedra was the answer for many who could no longer obtain Phen-fen after it was banned due to the exact same side effects.
Speed is Speed no matter what label you put on it. It's sad that something that is effective in treating medical ailments can no longer be available. The same thing happened to cannabus in the 1930's -- one of the best anti-nausea treatments and you practically have to sell your soul in this country to get the pills. And remember
Of course--that's my opinion-------I could be wrong...
01-30-2004, 11:22 AM
Ephedra was abused by "capitalists" looking to make a buck off us overweight folks. It was abused. It is not bad or any more harmful than any other prescription drug.
Also, herbalists and naturopaths have had plenty of research and development done. Naturopathic medicine is older by far (this is a fact) than "traditional" medicine.
Do you really think that the people stocking shelves with garlic capsules and St. John's Wort and Ginko are naturopaths and herbalists? Nah. If people would GO to a naturopath or herbalist (just like they'd go to an MD for antibiotics or something) for help instead of popping the "newest" herbal remedy like candy with NO guidance, this would not have happened.
And, Quilter, could you please treat a sister of 3FC with respect and not call her "you people"? I'm sure HerbMama mourns your friend, and I don't think that she's trying to say that herbal remedies are a panacea for all ills. I mourn your friend, too, my dear.
01-30-2004, 12:53 PM
>>"It is not bad or any more harmful than any other prescription drug."<<
Or street drug - that's why it's a main ingedient for "crank," (methamphetimine.) Ever see what that natural concoction does to people?
Sorry to disagree, but I'll rely on good old MD's and Pharmacists. I like to think that humans have evolved beyond ancient medicine and remedies. If we haven't, then why are we living longer now than even 20 years ago? As for using anything beside your own brain to lose weight, who needs it anyway?
01-30-2004, 02:55 PM
To Diphthong: you said-
"As for using anything beside your own brain to lose weight, who needs it anyway?"
Obviously you haven't had the opportunity to be blessed (not) with an eating disorder. I for one am a compulsive overeater, and my brain cannot do the work alone. I'm as addicted to food as much as an alcoholic is addicted to alcohol, and a smoker is addicted to nicotine. It is a very real addiction and nothing to belittle. I am very much offended by your comment that everyone can lose weight if they really tried. Not everyone is as blessed as you have been. Others like myself need more than just pure will power and are desperate for anything that will help us get some control on our eating. If you want to discuss this any further, let me know.
As far as the ban on ephedra, I'm curious to know if the ones who have died were talking the pills as directed on the label, or were they taking them in excess to lose as much weight as possible. Is there any research on this? I always use as many pill as suggested, and never had a health related problem due to taking weight loss aids in the past, or present.
01-30-2004, 02:56 PM
Hey, it's all good. I personally use a mix of traditional and herbal medicine for my own personal caretaking and I think it's a good thing. I mean, I won't take herbs to fix a broken leg.
And you're right about the meth thing, though my point was that lots of things are harmful if abused. I mean, we won't ban cough syrup just because it's also a major ingredient, will we? God, I hope not...
01-30-2004, 02:59 PM
The idea that "natural medicines" are somehow not a part of the big bad capitalist system just doesn't hold up. Just for one example, look at HerbaLife, a huge international multi-level marketing company, making millions on ephedra-laced products. This company has as bad a reputation as Enron, with many lawsuits, as you will see if you google it.
The "natural herbs" industry is a very big capitalist business indeed, one that just a few years ago bought itself enough Congresspeople to prevent the FDA from regulating these "herbs" as medicines in the first place, treating them as "supplements" instead-- so that they could be marketed and sold with a very low level of oversight.
That's what led to the injuries and deaths: corporate greed, corporate amorality, corporate arrogance. And a government that can be bought and sold.
01-30-2004, 03:01 PM
DoILookFat, I have to agree. Though I never think that dietary aids are a good idea, I do think that food addicts (myself included) need all the help we can get. By help, I mean groups, personal trainers, even surgery if the problem gets to a completely unmanageable level. Weight Watchers and having a personal trainer for a sister is helping me a lot, not to mention the fact that I'd never lose an ounce if it weren't for this forum!
SeekInnerThinChick, excellent point. You've obviously given this some thought.
HerbMama, am I right in thinking that you're advocating sort of a more grassroots approach to herbal medicine? By that I mean not taking herbs unless prescribed by an herbalist or naturopath? From what I've read in your post, it doesn't seem like you're in support of herbs (including, as Seek said, the tons of remedies being pulled off shelves and consumed unregulated) as a commodity as much as herbs being wisely and judiciously taken under the eye of a competent practitioner. What'cha think?
01-30-2004, 03:37 PM
I wonder what makes you *think* I'm not addicted to food, or anything else for that matter, or haven't had eating disorders? I don't know why you would take offense to my comment. Isn't the brain the controlling organ of our entire body? It was through my brain that I was able to understand and deal with my food addiction and eating disorder. I've taken Ephedra and every other thing that's come out since 1965. And I know what ephedra, even taken as directed does to the heart and blood pressure. And I know you develop an immunity to it so the more you use it, the more you have to take until you are taking way too much.
I take natural supplements as well as an Rx for nerve damage I suffered in a recent surgery. I am a critical thinker and examine all of my options before I make a choice, especially when it somes to my health. But I am not naive enough to blame any of my addicitons on capitalism or the government, or McDonald's. I've never seen anyone force my own hand, except - me. Same goes for directions on a bottle. I am responsible for my own choices. If the label says take 2, and I take 3 and die, it wasn't the government or a corporation that made me do it. Same with a prescription. Unfortunately, enough people who didn't think hard enough overused ephedra and paid the ultimate price.
Does anybody remember a few years ago when our favorite OTC cold remedies were recalled, during cold season yet, and replaced with products with different ingredients? What was the purpose of that? It was the big, bad bought and sold government punishing the big, bad capitalist corporations, ya think? Ever stop to think about the dollars lost by the corporations over that one? What was the ingredient that was causing the problem?
If you do a google search in the news section, perhaps you can pull up recent articles explaining the ephedra ban. It's been a long time coming, and IMO, not soon enough. It's not used only for controlling appetite, it's used for physical enhancement by athletes. Some dead ones, too.
01-30-2004, 04:09 PM
I was not aware you have done very well managing, if not conqueriing your addiction to food. I apologize that I read your post wrong and misunderstood your position.
I have come in contact more than once with those who call me weak and not trying hard enough, or else I would have lost the weight, that my radar for such comments are on high alert. As of right now, I have not conquered my food addiction and I am very depressed because of it. Everyday I am extra aware of what I am eating and how much I am eating, that my obsession with losing weight has become my worst enemy. I hate having this disease and thinking about what to eat and not eat and on and on and on.....I'm a wreck. I hope and pray that one day I will find a way to get out of the **** I live in and be as lucky as you.
Again, I apologize for being out of line.
01-30-2004, 04:46 PM
Off the ephedra topic a bit...
I had read this thread just before leaving for my lunch break - during that time I had a thoughts running through my head regarding Heidi's initial response to Dip. I came back and saw that Dip had responded - I was going to add my two cents and say that I, too, would probably be labeled a 'compulsive overeater' along with (most likely) the majority of the posters/lurkers on the entire 3FC forum.
I wouldn't call Dip or any of the other successful losers (myself included) as 'lucky' in our attempts to conquer our urge to overeat. Anyone who tells you that losing weight (and more importantly, maintaining a weight loss) is easy or requires 'luck' is - well, they're pretty much lying to you. Saying NO to food - especially these days when we are all surrounded by massive quanitites of food and food advertising - and changing habits is TOUGH.
A book you might want to check out is one I just recommended on the Book Club forum - Rosemary Green's Diary of a Fat Housewife. It's *not* a 'diet book' - rather, it's an actual diary written by Ms. Green who was a slim beauty queen in high school, got married and went through the weight roller-coaster, reaching 310 pounds at one point. She was/is definitely a compulsive overeater - however she was able to eventually (took her 16 years, but she did it!) reach her goal weight of 135 pounds (if you look for the book - I'd recommend the paperback since the hardcover ends with Rosemary still at 209 pounds and there are some really good nuggets of info in the appendix in the paperback edition. For example, in the following snippet "Practice Environmental Control" Ms. Green writes:
After 20 years I faced the fact that I simply can't control myself once the maple bar is in my hand. At that point, it is not my fault if I eat it. It is literally beyond my control. Like the alcoholic sitting at a bar with his favorite drink in front of him, once that stupid maple bar is in my hand, I am a goner. But...I did have control before I bought the greasy sucker. Or before I walked into the store. Or before I got out of my car. Or before I stepped into my car...that is where willpower must be applied! When the first wicked thought of excess calories enters the brain - that is the place to nip it!...
I started practicing self-defense by cleaning out my environment...I discarded any overly tempting, patently unhealthy foods: potato chips, candy, pastries, most crackers, ice cream, and nuts.
WAIT! I alread know what you're thinking: "But I can't throw away money like that, and besides, my children need treats." To which I reply "Phooey!" This will be the best-spent money you have ever known! If the tempting garbage food is in your home - you will eat it. It is that simple..."The Arm's Length Rule: If it is within arm's length...you will eat it." You are not a bad person to eat it, but you are a stupid person to have it in your home. Really now, who needs potato chips? Who is healthier for eating potato chips? Do you honestly want your sweet babies to put those grease-laden, unhealthy morsels into their beautiful little bodies? Do you actually want their precious little arteries becoming clogged with life-taking plaque? ..."We need to think of a French Fry...as a cigarette!"
To which I add this killer thought - think of what we do at Christmas, Valentine's Day, and Easter: "Here, my darling child, with your beautiful, healthy little body, here's a special chocolate treat. It's made from 50% grease and 50% sugar...I love you!" That doesn't sound like love to me! What chance do those children have at staying trim and healthy? Why do we do what we do when we know what we know? I mean, any decent parent would be appalled at the prospect of offering their child a cigarette or a drink of beer. Why? Because it is unhealthy for them! But it's somehow okay, perfectly acceptable, to offer them globs of fat. So, cleaning out your environment will benefit anyone who lives under your roof!
But beware! Do not throw those garbage foods into the garbage can...we both know they are too easily retrievable. Okay, here's one of my favorite lines - think it over carefully: Grind them or flush them...or you're going to wear them.
In Dr. Phil's 7 Keys book, he also focuses (along with the head issues) on Environmental Control as one of the 7 keys to weight loss. That also works for me - if I don't have the bad food at hand, then I won't eat it.
And as far as ephedra as a diet pill...if it worked as well as the ads and all are/were saying, then wouldn't there be a lot fewer fat people? I've said it many times and I'll say it again - "there is NO magic pill".
01-30-2004, 05:08 PM
Heidi, No apolgy necessary. If anything, I'm available to help you, as so many others here at 3FC. We are a community of support and understanding. And Lord knows, hon, I understand!
Like Mrs. Jim states - "there is no magic pill" or potion, juice, or even diet. There are people who have had 'the surgery" and still struggle with food addiction. I struggle with food addiction every single hour of the day. But it can be done. I highly recommend the two books Mrs. Jim just did. The answeres lie within them. Feel free to PM me if you want to know where to begin. The answer may surprise you.
01-30-2004, 05:26 PM
I donít have anything to add to the ephedra discussion but have to chime in on the food addictions.
Mrs. Jim makes a very good point ó why the heck would we all be posting here at 3FC if we didn't have issues with food? :?: I mean, Iíve met a lot of lovely people here and have fun hanging out with them Ö :lol: but we all share the same problems: eating disorders ó compulsive overeating ó binging ó emotional eating ó stress eating etc. Look around these forums and youíll see the entire spectrum of eating behaviors that get and keep us fat. I think itís safe to say that I too had a major food addiction since I spent the first 46 years of my life in varying degrees of fat.
I have to agree with Dip that it all comes down to our brains in the end. Successfully conquering any addiction or behavior has to happen in your brain first. Mrs. Jim is fond of saying that itís all head stuff and sheís right. Even if food is a physical addiction for you, the strategies and weapons and skills that you need in your fight against the addiction happen in your head. And look around here at 3FC: the losers ó some big losers like Mrs. Jim and Dip ó are eloquent testimony that food addiction can be beaten.
One other thought to add to Mrs. Jimís comment about luck not having anything to do with losing weight: losing this weight and more important, keeping it off has probably been one of the hardest and at the same time, one of the most worthwhile things Iíve done in my life. Itís SO worth all the planning and thinking and preparing and sweating that we have to do to succeed.
Heidi, thereís only one person in the world who will make your weight loss dream come true ó you. Youíre in charge of your life and your weight. Donít let the past control you ó as of right this minute, you're in control of your life, through all the choices that you make every day. You can do this! :)
01-30-2004, 05:59 PM
Well, heck Meg, you stole my thunder. ;)
01-30-2004, 07:29 PM
I have tried and failed probably 20 or more times to get down to a more healthy weight. I'm not going to sit back and whine about how I can't lose weight, I just keep on trying. Right now, I am exercising an hour a day, (at the least, some days 2 hours if I overeat), and fighting with all my might not to succumb YET AGAIN to the horrible person inside me that convinces me that I MUST eat whatever it is I'm craving. I want so badly to think this time I will get over the hump and start succeeding. As of right now, I believe I can do it this time. (but at the same time, it's that idiot voice in the back of my head saying "ya right. You've done this before, and you just ended up gaining MORE weight in the end. Quit while you're ahead).
I wish with all my might I can fight and finally win this war I have with food once and for all. I see that people have done it, and I am so jealous they were able to get past that hump and finally start losing the weight. I so badly want to be that person too. I know it's all inside of me, and I'm dealing with this day in and day out. I'm trying to, yet once again, believe in myself that quiting is not the way to go, even if it is the most difficult thing I've ever had to say no to in my life. At least 20 times in my life, I have given up and failed. I am once again analizing my whole lifestyle and trying to figure out what I need to make it work out this time. I am sick of failing. I am sick of giving up. I am sick of what I am putting my body through.
I've only been on my current lifestyle change 5 days now, and I cannot express to all of you enough how hard it is not to just chuck it all in again at this point. My husband will be coming home for work in about an hour, and he will be hungry and wanting dinner. The kids are already asking me what we will be eating. All I want to do is hide under the covers and not THINK about food! This is the worst time of the day for me and I hope I have enough strength to make it to tomorrow.
PS I have read A Diary of a Fat Housewife and found it eye opening. She sounded a lot like me. Dr. Phil's book was a little harder to read. I didn't get past key 1. I don't think it can get me enough practical help.
01-30-2004, 09:20 PM
Ok, shoot holes in me if you will, but I think you COMPLETELY missed the point of HerbMama's post. She specifically said Yes, using Ephedra as a diet aid can be dangerous, and it should not be used as such ( It was not intended to be, and was not used that way until fairly recently).
I believe her point was defending the right of choice. There are many people who are tired of the American way of pushing prescription drugs down your throat. Take a pill, take another to counter the side effects, and another and another until you're taking 20 pills a day. Many have turned to alternative medicines and holistic treatments.
On her point of ephedra as a respiratory herb, I'd have to agree. On occasion when my allegy attacks got so bad I was on the verge of an asthma attack, I would have a cup of Breathe Easy tea with ephedra. One cup. ONE. Maybe 3 times a year. And it brought my airways under control enough to let me get a good night's sleep. Now because people have abused it, I don't have that option anymore.
This is the part that angers me. Some people will forever be searching for that wacky diet or that magic pill that will melt away the 50 pounds in 3 days. Fen Fen, Chromium Picolinate, cripes Ayds fudge candies in the 70's. They refuse to accept that it took time to put the weight on and you have to reverse the habits that got you there in the first place. YOU have to change to adapt to a new body and a new situation. Geez even taking insulin will not help you if you have Diabetes and don't eat properly.
As those of you who have been successful have found, it's all about identifying the foods and situations that are troublesome triggers, eating clean and in the right proportions and moving your body. As we age, we need to put more effort into it.
No two people are the same, we each have different needs and issues, part of the greatness of this forum is that there's a whole community to help you find the answers.
I just had to put my 2 cents in, I feel this woman was unjustly attacked.
01-30-2004, 10:54 PM
I have no problem with people choosing "herbal medicines" as long as the people manufacturing and essentially prescribing and administering these "medicines" are at least as closely regulated as the mainstream medical community. Not that the mainstream is anywhere near as scandal-free as it should be, not by a long shot. The entire system of medicine in this country is deeply flawed, IMO, but that's another topic.
IMO herbal "practitioners" and manufacturers are essentially practicing medicine without a license, and historically that tends to attract the worst types of charlatans. In addition, having manufacturers manipulate the Congress to keep regulation off further corrupts the system we all pay for. Then when people are hurt or killed, we all pay for it again and again in personal agony, in our health insurance, and in our taxes.
BTW these opinions have nothing to do with the poster as a person, and are not an attack on anyone. They are opinions, just as her posts are opinions. Strong disagreement with a poster, as long as it's not personal, is not an attack, it's not wrong. It's part of the reason this forum exists in the first place: to get lots of different experiences on the table so all readers can come to their own conclusions. If all vigorous disagreement is squashed to preserve an artificial harmony, no one will learn anything here and you might as well shut the place down.
01-31-2004, 08:57 AM
Happy - Actually I wasn't even responding to the original post - I realize that she was voicing her opinion. Most of us are familiar with ephedra/ma huang's use as a diet pill, rather than its original use by Asian herbalists as (I believe) an antihistamine (correct me if I'm wrong here). I'm not going to put down ancient forms of medicine since many are still used today - several of my co-workers, for example, go to acupuncturists (licensed acupuncturists) regularly and swear by it.
IMO whether ephedra should be banned or not is a moot point anyway; it's done. Besides, as I've reported previously, many, many supplement manufacturers had voluntarily stopped the production of ephedra-based products anyway - not because of any government ban, but because of rising liability insurance premiums due to the high potential for lawsuits (as many of you no doubt know, if a company is sued for product liability, the insurance company has to pay for their legal defense - so even if no award is made to the plaintiff, the insurer is still faced with MASSIVE legal fees and expenses). For example, Biotest (a supplement manufacturer) was one of the first companies to stop production of ephedra products due to a sharp increase in their liability premium - over $1,000,000 a year. And the other companies soon followed. Several states (including California) had already banned the sale of ephedra products due to public outcry. Once California had made the decision to ban the sale of ephedra, that, combined with the insurance premium hike, pretty much put the nail in the coffin for ephdera (IMO).
Anyway - word to Heidi - like Meg, Dip and I have stated, losing weight is not the easiest thing in the world to do - but rest assured it CAN be done. It IS hard work - but I remember something I read in (of all books!) Laura Ingalls Wilder's Little Town on the Prairie (I'm a big LIW fan BTW) - when her Pa was tilling the field (it could have been The Long Winter but I don't have the books in front of me to check! :lol: ) "Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is anything else worth having". (or words to that effect). I think that's what makes losing weight especially hard in this society - so many of us are used to INSTANT GRATIFICATION. Tasting and eating foods is so pleasurable and it is so easy in this society to obtain (vs. 100 or so years ago - back when the average American couldn't just go to the store and buy ice cream - if they wanted it they had to MAKE it - read Farmer Boy by LIW and you'll get an idea of the work involved in that project!) that it is really no wonder that obesity is the number one health concern in the US and rapidly spreading around the world. There are no real secrets in losing weight - Dr. Phil's book sums them up pretty well (you might want to try reading it again - he MAKES SENSE). Again, it takes hard work, planning, setting goals and working towards achieving those goals. For me, journaling also has been effective. If you're using food as an 'emotional painkiller' I would suggest getting a journalbook and a pen and start writing...that has helped me IMMEASURABLY in the past. There's something about putting those thoughts down on paper that is a catharsis for me. At any rate, we're all here to help ya :)
OMG...Ayds Candies! I remember those... ;) and eating an entire box in like two days...
01-31-2004, 11:16 AM
OMG!! I too remember those Ayds choc. candies! I was a young teenager and remember my Mom eating so many of them and wondering why she didn't lose weight!! :lol:
Thanks for bringing back the memories.
02-01-2004, 01:52 AM
I would have to agree with the person who started this thread - not that ephedra is "good" or "bad", but just because we have lost access to a valuable substance that helps respiratory problems - much like the public has lost access to other valuable substances, like paregoric and codeine (for stomach cramps and coughs, respectively). Because people just will not use these things as they should - and others capitalize on their addictions and stupidity. Marijuana, outlawed everywhere, is extremely useful for those undergoing cancer treatment, and other medical conditions that can't be helped any other way.
Like all food, all herbs and drugs were created to be helpful in certain situations, but have been misused and abused because of human nature. And all have side effects of one nature or another. What is the solution? We have been searching for that forever.
The same thing can be said about food -- fats are good, carbs are good, protein is good, and each can be bad under other circumstances. They must be ingested in proper ratio, not exaggerated or minimized.
Just my opinion on the matters.
02-01-2004, 11:50 PM
My 2 cents on the Ephedra thing: I am glad its banned. As stated before there is no magic pill for weightloss and even those who did not experience the direct side effects did have weight gain after discontinuation or becoming use to the substance. If the ban saved one desperate persons life than to me it was worth it.
As far as weight loss and eating disorders. I got to agree, here at 3FC we run gambit of symptoms, triggers, and manifestations. The issues we have with food we wear as the badge called obesity. I liked the idea of not having the food in arms length. Since becoming abstinent I have no trigger foods in my house. I call and disscuss with a friend before I include any new foods into my plan of eating. I really enjoyed everyones take on this. I think the biggest question we must ask ourselves is what lengths are we willing to go to not have to fight with the food anymore and what works for us. We can learn through examples like Mrs. Jim and Meg, taking what applies and leaving the rest. As individuals we can all be right taking different pathways to achieve our goals; which are as unique as we are.
Where was I going with this? Oh, I just thought this was really interesting and thanks to everyone for their stimulating input.
Miss Chris :D