WW Food and Point Issues - Passover Recipes and Substitutions

I posted something over in the recipes section but I thought I'd also post a more general question here.

I'm looking for Passover recipes and good Passover substitutions.

Anyone have any good recipes (especially main dishes for the Seder or desserts (no dairy)?

Also, almost all the nifty tricks I use the rest of the year aren't available during Passover. There is no equal, no Wonderslim, no Splenda. What do people do to substitute for these items that have become staples in my cupboard?

Thanks for the suggestions.

Best,
Alyson

Alyson,
Passover is a challenge, but I've found certain things that are helpful. (Caveat: I'm not as careful as some about everything being heckshered, so some of my ideas may not really be K-for-P. Keep your eyes peeled for a post on this topic from Ziner/Dina--now her hashgacha you can trust!)
- canned gefilte fish is surprisingly tasty and low in points. I use the Rokeach brand; it tastes most like my grandmother's mostly-carp recipe. They are 1 point/piece and horseradish is free. This makes a fine lunch.
- You can make matzah balls from the mix (my mother would have you think this is not possible). The Streit's mix calls for a quarter cup of oil--ignore this. I think I use a tablespoon or two. And when it's not Pesach, I use egg beaters. Doubt these would work for you, but you could use egg whites--that's what egg beaters are anyway. Once I discovered how easy it is to make matzah balls this way, I make them most weekends all year. You can serve matzah ball soup as your main meal, as long as there are plenty of matzah balls. Made with reduced oil and egg white/beaters, they are quite low in points. Calculate the calories/fat/fiber for the whole batch and divide by the number of balls you are making (I make a lot of little ones).
- Egg white/beater omelettes are a good breakfast (or dinner option). Fill with onions and mushrooms. Serve with hash browns. I use Simply Potatoes (don't know if they are k-for-p) cooked in a non-stick pan with very little oil.
- Lighten up a potato kugel by mixing in some mashed cauliflower (really!) and grated carrot. This has a sweeter taste than the usual kugel but it went over reasonably well at our seder table. I made another (not light) kugel that had onions and mushrooms. This year I may combine all five vegetables into one kugel.

There is a kosher cooking web site that a member who posts here as LSS (Linda) runs. I don't know the address but if you do a search, you'll probably locate it. She's a WW too, so I think she has some light recipes.

What's wonderslim?

Hi Alyson and Bumby,

You can find tons of Passover recipes at our
Classic Jewish Recipe Archives: (don't forget to sign our guestbook!!)

jewish-food.org

Check under the Passover category- there are hundreds of recipes, lots which can be adapted to WW. I absolutely agree with everything Bumby said- in fact I used to panic this time every year (this is my 3rd year on WW)- now I don't worry at all. I stick to fresh fruit and veggies, chicken and fish as much as possible and try to keep my matzo consumption low! Actually, I now buy whole wheat matzo whenever I can find it (the selection of kosher foods in my area is quite limited) for use during the year. It has fiber in it! However I don't think they make a KP version.... There are also several terrific lowfat Jewish cookbooks....check them out! Faye Levy's is wonderful. Another thought...why not try a vegetarian seder? I did one 2 years ago which was lots of fun. Lastly- don't deprive yourself!! With proper planning you an enjoy lots of your Pesach favorites!!

Enjoy,
Linda

I don't have too much to add on your specific question, but since Bumby has deemed me the authority on kashruth (which I'm not).....

One of the things I used a lot last year (and intend to use this year) are Pepetti's egg whites. They come in a carton and are OU-P all year. As for sweetners, I know that Sweet 'N Low is kosher-for-Passover each year. Hopefully Equal will follow suit soon.

When I get a chance I'll post a recipe for Chewy Cocoa Meringue cookies that is from the 365 Low-Fat Recipes cookbook. The only thing it calls for that I can't get is Cream of Tartar, but they come out fine without them. Note: you can't use the Pepetti's egg whites for those because they don't whip well. You have to use real egg whites.

My grandmother makes chocolate-nut-wine cakes and lemon cakes each year. I know I calculated the points one year and it wasn't outrageous. They don't have a ton of fat in them (obviously the lemon is a better points-value than the chocolate), and if they're done right come out very light and fluffy (you separate the eggs, whip the whites separately and fold them into the rest of the batter right before baking). I'll put those recipes in Master Cook and post them as well.

Bumby was talking about good lunches, and I'd like to add to her list hard-boiled eggs with veggies, a package of Empire Roasted Turkey (1.5 pts for 4 oz) with salad (I use balsamic vinegar as dressing), or tuna packed in water on salad. I'm not sure if they make them for Passover, but during the year Season makes sardines packed in tomato sauce which are low in points.

My mom makes kugels that are similar to the ones that Bumby described. I think she actually does a souffle-type thing where she folds the veggies and stuff into whipped egg whites (yes, there's a lot of egg-white whipping in my mom's house on Pesach). I'll see if she has a recipe, but knowing her, it's 'a little of this, and a little of that...'.

Linda - FYI, I know that I've seen kosher-for-Passover whole wheat matzos. However, I found them more cardboardy than the year-round wheat matzos. I also know there was a web site last year that was selling oat bran (I think -- it was definitely oat) matzos, but they were quite expensive.

I'll post again after I've put those recipes up.
Dina

I posted the 3 recipes in the desserts section.

Dina

Thanks for the recipes, Dina. I may try the meringues. Just noticed that Manischewitz macaroons are 1 point each--not too bad--but DH hates coconut so he'll appreciate the meringues.

I just spotted a brand of kosher cheese that had reduced fat slices and "light" shredded mozzarella. It was heckshered Kosher for Passover. Never seen the brand before--HaOlam. This has potential for matzah lasagna.

I just posted a few Passover dessert recipes over in the Desserts area. I'm going to use two of those three this year. I've gone wandering the net but haven't found any recipes which have interesting substitutes legal for Passover.

I did put up a stew recipe under Vegetarian which is almost ok for Passover. Thoughts on converting the legumes are appreciated.

Best,
Alyson

Bumby - I saw the Haolam shredded mozarella in my supermarket as well. Looked interesting, but DH doesn't tend to like 'light', so we just went for the Milk N' Honey Part-Skim. If I were doing a lasagna (as opposed to matzoh-pizza) I probably would have bought it. The meringues are really easy, but they do take up your oven for a long time. I've thrown them in, run errands, and come back to take them out. I figure my house isn't going to burn down from my oven being at 200 degrees while I'm not home.

Alyson - as for 'interesting' substitutes, it's a little hard. My mom has a very good mandelbrot recipe, but it's not exactly WW-friendly. Another thing that we're going to be doing is Turkey Meatballs -- instead of bread crumbs I'll use matzoh meal, dried minced onion, and any heckshered Italian spices I can find (although I'm not terribly hopeful), over Passover spaghetti. During the holiday, I just tend to eat more whole foods and not be as creative.

Dina

I'm not sure about recipies...

but I found these great Kosher dark chocolate mint patties made by Manshevitz (sorry sp). They
are better than York! Plus, one serving (two) of them have five grams of fiber. I think two is only one point.

My aunt makes seder and knows I'm vegetarian, so she's kind enough to accomodate me and they make perfect WW eats. You might like some of the suggestions.

She uses oodles of veggies (carrots, parsnips, probably others) in her matzo ball soup. I started off dinner with the soup and A LOT of the veggies. I usually start getting full by the time I finished the bowl.

Another dish she made, which I modified becuase I was a healthy eating vegetarian, I believe comes from The Jewish Cookbook and is a vegetable kugel (no noodles). It's made with mostly carrots, celery, and onion and just enough mazto meal to hold it together. The original recipe had oil and eggs in it, but my recipe doesn't taste diet. It's very easy to make with a food processor. Let me know if you'd be interested in the recipe and I'll post it.

Are legumes and rice KforP? If so, you can substitute soy milk or rice milk for regular milk in many recipes. When I was young we'd have matzo "cereal" with a sprinkle of sugar on top and warm milk. Use matzo farfel or just break matzo into smallish peices. Top with vanilla soy milk (if allowed) and you'll have a great breakfast. Also, if legumes are allowed, you might want to check out the vegetarian section in the grocery store, where there will be lots of soy based products.

For dessert, why not have a fresh fruit salad with GOOD fresh fruit--Del Monte Gold Pineapple, mangoes, kiwi, melons, strawberries, and grapes.

Hi, REC.

I'm going to be in Philadelphia for a week next month, in Center City. I'm not that familiar with the area though I visit often. Can you recommend a vegetarian restaurant or a place with great vegetarian dishes? I love sushi so I know of a couple good places for that! Thanks so much!

Hi Guys,

REC, I'm a Philly girl myself- grew up, got married there...in fact, all of my family still lives in the suburbs or in Cherry Hill. Even though we've been in Florida for 15 years, I still miss certain things about "home."

What area do you live in?

Girlie...enjoy your trip! :) I know there used to be an Israeli dairy restaurant in Center City...tiny place somewhere (I think) between Market and Chestnut on either 11th or 12th St. I believe it is called Maccabee or something close to that. Also, there used to be a kosher Chinese restaurant in the Northeast...sorry but I don't remember the name. Oh- check around the Penn campus for vegetarian restaurants.

I've posted 2 Passover dessert recipes that were in my local paper today...

enjoy,

Linda

Hi Girlie and LSue. I'm really an import here. Came from New Jersey (northern) about 20 years ago. I live in Center City, around 17th and South Streets.

Unfortunately, there aren't too many vegetarian restaurants here, like there are in other cities. The most likely scenerio are cafeteria line style at the healthfood stores:

Essene--4th and Monroe (near 4th and South). I think this place has the best vegetarian food and the best selection (perhaps 4 or 5 "main" coarses (all vegan, I believe) plus lots of veggie items) and I do get things here often and is inexpensive ($6.50 per pound). They also have a nice selection of vegan fresh baked goods and juices. I wish they would make a cookbook. I think they stay open til 8 or 9pm. If they have the Timbuktu Tofu, it's great (made with coconut milk, so I try to not eat any of the excess sauce). If you eat in, they'll serve your food on glass plates with silverware. The other grocery store/ restaurant places are strictly plastic.

Center Foods--on Locust between 16th and 17th. Not as good a selection as Essene, but closer. I've eaten here a couple of times and it's been good.

There's another place on the corner of 20th or 21st and Walnut, but I forget their name (it's on the south side of Walnut). I love the smells coming from there, but I'm very salt sensitive and have had to trash about half the food I've bought there. It's very good, but I just cannot take the sodium.

Fresh Fields--10th and South Streets and also 20th and Callowhill, near Ben Franklin Parkway and the main branch of the library.

For regular restaruants:
Singapore Vegetarian Restaurant in Chinatown. It's on Race Street between 10th and 11th. It's good (I've only eatten there once), but if you go to NJ (Haddonfield I believe), they have another branch (eatten many times), which I think is better.

Maccabeam Restaurant (kosher, dairy, I believe) 128 S. 12th Street. This is the one LSue suggested. I haven't been there.

Unfortunately, that is all I know for downtown. Pretty pitiful for such a large city. There are Indian restaurants around and they have veggie selections. Also, I'm sure there are more restaurants in West Philadelphia, near U of Penn, but I just don't know them.

If you eat fish, Devon Grill on Rittenhouse square is really good. Expect $20 per main course.

If you're looking for a walking route, Penn campus via Locust Walk is nice. Or, walk to the Art museum. If you have the time, there is a walking path behind the Art museum that parallels the Schyulkill River. If you go to Essence, South Street Stores stay open til midnight, so that's walkable, too.

If I can help you in any way, send me a private message with your email. I'll send you my email and phone number.

Hi there REC: A bunch of valid questions have been raised in this thread about what defines Kosher l'pesach. The truth is, there are only 5 species that are deemed chometz -- barley, rye, oats, wheat, and spelt. End of story. Legumes and rice really are KLP. However, we need to understand the customs and the tradition of the region we are dealing in. Sephardic Jews always eat rice during pesach -- it is too much a staple in their cuisine. Many Ashke**** Jews have for some reason omitted peanuts and legumes from pesach and there is no Halachic reason to do so. (Why would SPLENDA, EQUAL, etc. be unfit for pesach? Because the companies have not paid for OU certification?) I don't know. In the meantime, knowing that "leavened" products are not permissible, how come, in my Orthodox neighborhood, I found a bottle of kosher l'pesach baking powder? I mean, WHAT IS UP with that? the rules vary. Make it your own. and, my wishes to all for a very sweet Pesach, and a happy Easter.

A friend of mine (definitely Ashke****c) declares herself Sephardic every Passover. That way she can have rice.

It's true that the definition of chometz is pretty specific. The rest of the stuff that's not ok seems to go by the term kittniyos--legumes, anything that sprouts, anything you COULD grind into flour (corn)...

Even within those prohibitions, there are some confusing inconsistencies--peanut oil is O.K.; some think corn syrup is O.K. (there are corn-syrup sweetened marshmallows in our grocery's Pesach section and the "hecksher" consists of a whole quote on the matter from some rabbi or other). A rabbi friend (the person DH studied with for conversion) explained that kittniyos were already a step removed from chometz (fence around the law and all that) so the oils/syrups were even ANOTHER step away, and were o.k. By that reasoning, you'd expect soy MILK to be o.k., but maybe not soy flour. So maybe soy SAUCE as well? I'll have DH look into it.

I can get potato noodles in the Korean grocery--they are the cellophaney things they use in chap-chae. I guess those would be acceptable?

imaleader-

If you're okay without K for P certification, that's fine. Some of us are looking for assurances. Are Splenda or Equal inherently chometz? No. However, it is important for some people (like me) to be told that a rabbi supervised the plant, and that there were no non-kosher chemicals or soaps used to clean the equipment, and that the employees of the plant did not inadvertently bring any chometz into the plant while making the K for P items.

During the year, there's a rule that if 1/60th of the vessel is non-kosher (i.e. accidentally splashing a bit of milk into a pot of chicken soup), the food in that vessel is still considered kosher. However, there is no such rule for Passover. And, to your point, Equal does have OU certification year-round. Perhaps there's an extra expense associated with Passover certification (most likely there is), or perhaps there's actually a reason that it is not certified.

As for legumes and such, no, there is no halachic reason for it. It is tradition. I was told that if you touch something with kitniyot (thanks for the explanation, Bumby) to your K for P dishes (i.e. string beans), it doesn't make them chometz, and eating them doesn't, per se, mean that you 'broke Passover'. However, tradition for many of us dictates that we don't eat it.

What defines Kosher l'Pesach? It depends. For me, everything I eat has to be heckshered. For someone else, it might just be not to eat bread. For another, it might be to eat things that aren't inherently chometz (sounds like Bumby is in this camp). Religion is a very personal thing, and, really, it's to each his/her own.

As for the baking powder and peanut oil, I did get explanations for those items at some point in my life, but I don't recall what they are at the moment. If I remember or find out, I'll post it.

If anyone is interested, the OU site has a listing of items that are certified, including a listing of things that need to specifically say K for P and those for which just the OU is fine. There are other heckshers out there for Passover, but this one is most common. http://www.ou.org/chagim/pesach/pesachguide/pd01/default.htm

Dina

Dina - I commend you for the tactful and informative reply.
Also, although the rice/legume rule is, in fact, a tradition there is a rule saying that old traditions that Jews have practiced for years become, in essence, a law. That's the reason we still apply this rule now.

I agree w/ the law/tradition concept, which is why I cited it in the first place. All the facts are valid. What I did was attempt (and from your response, rather poorly) to explain an answer to the question on legumes and such (by the way, it IS more expensive for the hecksher for pesach because of the cleaning that must be done.) I don't know if any of you is old enough to remember that coca cola used to have to change their recipe for pesach because they used to use corn sweetener during the year, and for pesach use changed to cane syrup... Anyway, if any of us has provided some assistance to any of you with questions, that is a beautiful thing.

I remember the coca cola change! Don't they still have to do it? I believe that the label says corn and/or cane syrup. The big thing about it was that without the corn syrup, it was the REAL original recipe. I haven't looked at non-diet soda for so long, though. ;) Now, if only Heinz Ketchup and Hellmann's Mayo would accomodate.....

Although I agree that the cleaning can be expensive (probably more the kashering), when I mentioned the increased expense I was referring to the fact that a rabbi has to be there more frequently during the time that they're making K for P items, to keep closer supervision. So, I'm sure that when OU writes the contract it's something like $x amount for year-round supervision and $y amount for Passover certification.

Dina

Dina: Exactly -- about the Rabbi's presence. Oy, what we do for pesach! (I have no one to sell my chometz to, either, so don't ask what happens to my den during that time...) Which mayo do you use? I'm almost exclusively on Season brand products during the holiday.

Bumby: the potato noodles are fine -- and the marshmallows too, probably. I've always had a problem w/ klp "noodles" made from potato starch because of their texture. My feeling is, the holiday is all about SEPARATING yourself from your usual foods, so the substitutions, while I laud the effort, don't even have a place in my life. A week w/o noodles won't kill me. The matzo does that very nicely. (Do you eat egg matzo? The purists do not...

Now, how about CHESTNUT FLOUR, anyone?

Selling your chometz doesn't mean that you need to get it out of your house. You just need to separate it to an area that you won't touch for the holiday. I just cover the wine rack over with a sheet, and we'll find a place for the rest of the stuff. I actually sold mine through Chabad online. I just filled out a form with all of the relevant info, and the Rabbi will take care of the rest (of course I'll send a small donation for their trouble -- I do it through the Chabad at my alma mater).

I don't like Passover mayo very much, but in the past we've used Streitz. For whatever reason, my supermarket didn't have it this year, so DH bought Unger's regular mayo, and I got Unger's lowfat.

As for Egg Matzo, it's more the additional calories than being a purist. I usually purchase a box to eat between when you can't have chometz anymore the day of the 1st Seder and the Seder itself (for those of you who are not aware, the law/tradition is that you're not supposed to have matzoh until the Seder itself). However, I'll probably be eating it a day longer this year, since I have to be completely changed over before sundown on Friday, and the seder isn't until Saturday night.

imaleader, I find your view on not eating the noodles interesting. That's where the personal aspects of religion come in! I still consider it a separation -- after all, the noodles aren't chometz -- and I still have to think a lot more about what I'm eating during that time of year than any other. Besides which, the substitutes aren't nearly as good as the originals. :D

Dina

There are some people who don't "do" non-dairy creamer, tofutti, etc. with meat because it seems like getting around the rules somehow. I guess it would be easy to feel that way about Passover breakfast cereal, Passover bagel mix, Passover pizza crust mix, Passover spaghetti, etc., etc. But to me, they are different enough from our usual that the challenge of getting through the week without chometz (or kitniyos--harder, actually) is still there, even if we do have the Passover Cheerios for breakfast. The noodles, however, are gross. Tried them once. That was enough.

Actually, it makes me nuts at a local Kosher meat restaurant when they've asked me if I want yogurt sauce with my appetizer/meal, and I can't remember what it is now, but it was something else that was a substitute and they were calling by its dairy name. I don't mind using the substitutes. I just prefer they be called by their real names and not what they are substitutes for.

Bumby, I tried the noodles one year and disliked them as well. However, I did find that the Savion brand wasn't terrible -- it was a lot like whole wheat pasta.

Dina

Thank you for your suggestions! They were very helpful!

I'll be at the Academy house on Locust and 15th, I think...it's very close to Center Foods..I passed it by many times! I'll be sure to stock up on food when I'm there.

I'm also sure to be at South Street...my kinda place! I was there last time, but it was pretty late at night so I don't remember where everything was!

Thanks again for your help!

Girlie

imaleader -
The do, in fact, change the coca-cola recipe for Passover. Instead of using corn syrup they use sugar. You'll notice that coke bottles for the past few weeks have a yellow cap on it instead of the usual white. It indicates that it is kosher for Pesach (besides for the OU-P on the cap).

Yes -- right! And to me, it's not a meal w/o coca cola. How pathetic is that? I mean, I can't have dinner w/o a glass of coke -- of course right now I only drink diet, but still (my non-jewish friends think it is soooo peculiar that I don't drink milk w/ meals. ick.

Oh, and Bumby: I agree w/ you on the (non)yogurt dressing too. My local McDonalds (kosher) sells a "cheese"burger. Feh. The whole point of kashruth, in separating the concept of dairy and meat, means that we shouldn't be using the substitutes either. I don't know. We could discuss this until the cows come home.

Where is there a kosher McD's in NY? My DH would be very interested.

You have a kosher McDonald's in Armonk?? (I grew up in Edgemont--I think we played Armonk in sports.)

I, personally, do eat cheese "burgers" consisting of dairy cheese and non-meat (soy) burgers. That doesn't trouble me, but then again, I grew up on REAL cheeseburgers, ham, pork chops, shrimp, you name it. I've only been making any efforts in this area since I was 15. I could see if you had always grown up with it, the idea would just be beyond gross. I tried melting soy "cheese" with turkey once (back in my treif days, any kind of meat with melted cheese was my #1 favorite thing. The microwave was a miracle product for that reason), but it tasted too treif to me and I couldn't eat it. For whatever reason, I have no problem with soyburgers or soy "meat" sauce in lasagna or soy-filled tacos/chili with cheese. Maybe it's because I really have no recollection of what real ground beef tastes like in these contexts.

It's my position that the dietary laws create a mindfulness of religious obligation at whatever level of strictness they are observed, from the most careful "hecksher snob" to the person who at least thinks to himself "gee, I really shouldn't be having this cheese on this burger." I think this because I was the person who didn't even have that thought for the first 15 years of my life, and who is moving gradually (and not always consistently) toward a greater degree of mindfulness.

Fun how this thread has been hopping. Dina started a Passover thread last spring and she and I pretty much had it to ourselves.

imaleader-
There is certainly nothing wrong with eating the substitutes. The only thing that you have to be careful about is that people who see you eating a "cheesburger" for instance, should know that it's a substitute and not the real thing. The same goes for a restaurant that sells these imitations - it should be clear to everyone who enters (and from outside too) that these are imitations and not the real things - and that this establishment does not sell dairy products.
Otherwise, feel free to enjoy it- there are no restrictions on enjoying something that is absolutely permissible by Torah law.

LuvMyGirl,

You reminded me of the first time my DH had a Boca Burger with cheese on it -- he said it tasted exactly like a fast-food cheeseburger. Being that I've never eaten one in my life, I don't know what they taste like, so the substitution doesn't bother me in the least. Come to think of it, since I've never had any milk and meat together, none of the substitutions would bother me from that standpoint -- since I don't know what the 'real thing' tastes like, a substitute can't taste 'treif' to me.

However, the smell of bacon is the epitome of treif to me, and that flavor bothers me in anything. When DH noticed that Shake and Bake was heckshered, he asked me to bread some chicken breasts in it. I had trouble eating it because the smoky flavor in the breading was too much like bacon to me. Again, perfectly permissible, but I have a mental block to it. Same with Bacos on salad (or as DH likes them, in egg salad). Different things are going to bring things up for different people.

Dina

Must post a retraction--
DH says I got the explanation wrong about the peanut oil. He says there is controversy over whether peanuts are or aren't kitniyos. Therefore, peanut OIL, which is a step removed from peanuts, which might or might not be kitniyos in the first place, is permissible. This provides me no insight whatsoever into why those Passover marshmallows have corn syrup in them, though. Also makes me a little less sanguine about being told that soy sauce or TVP is o.k. Ah, well...

I could try asking my OWN rabbi, I suppose...reform rabbis are actually excellent at helping you understand the WHYs of things, so that you can figure out the principle behind them and apply as you see fit.

Dina,

You're right. It's funny because I really like those imitation bacon bits, but I also never tasted or even smelled bacon cooking so it doesn't bring up those same thoughts that you have.

Where in Long Island are you? I live in Kew Gardens, Queens.

I live in Jericho. DH and I bought a house out there in August.

I lived in Kew Gardens for a couple of years. Right off of Queens Blvd on Union Tpke, which is right on the border. The bldg across the street from me had a Forest Hills address.

Dina

Hi All;

I found this recipe for Passover Fudgy Brownies that are low fat..I put it up for my members this AM and they loved it..Oh BTW I am a leader for WW....
2 egg whites beaten
1 cup sugar
1/4 cup cocoa
1 dash salt
1 banana mashed
1/4 cup unsweetened applesauce
1/2 cup matzo cake meal
Preheat the oven to 325 degrees. Lightly spray an 8x8 inch glass pan with nonstick spray. Mix the first four ingredients together in mixing bowl. Add the rest of the ingredients. Bake for 25-30min
Yields 12
2pts per servings..

My 9yr old son gave this recipe 2 thumbs up so u know it must be good since kids don't lie..they were very fudgy..
Enjoy

Kosher Mcdonald's in Brookyn, not armonk. No McDonald's or any fast food in armonk! And, I'm not sure it's even there anymore. (There still is a kosher Dunkin' donuts). the McD's was on Avenue J I believe...

The "McDonalds" you are referring to is actually called Kosher Delight - an imitation, but they don't serve cheeseburgers - even the fake ones. They have a few branches in the New York area. Two in Manhattan - one on Broadway and 36th and one on Sixth Ave and 45th - and they have one in Brooklyn on Avenue J and East 13th.

Ugh. I got a 'grilled chicken' sandwich at KD once. It was the greasiest thing I've ever eaten in my life.

I found an interesting article on kitniyot, for anyone who is interested. It doesn't really explain the oils and stuff, but it does explain the origin. One thing I found interesting is that quinoa is permitted on Pesach because it is technically a grass and not a grain. So, Bumby, it was a small fortune, but I do remember seeing quinoa pasta in the store. I never tried it, but it might be worth a shot.

http://aish.com/holidays/passover/articles/all_about_kitniyot.asp

Dina

I probably wouldn't recommend Kosher Delight either. Small portions, big prices, and not too many options for dieters.

Yes, that's exactly right. Thanks for the right name.
Since I've never eaten in a "real" McDonalds -- I didn't know. Same thing to me. But, they DID experiment w/ cheeseburgers a while back, I remember seeing it on the "menu." Yes, it's near the train station, right? couple of blocks away.

Thank you for the great article, Dina. I asked a few entries back, any thoughts on chestnuts? I have used chestnut flour in the past.... It's quite delicious and is not chometz. (You know, along the lines of quinoa, wild rice is also "KLP" because it too, is a grass -- NOT a rice.

Fascinating information on kitniyot. I still don't get the string beans. And sesame seeds? Never saw that before!

I find either reassurance or confusion in the paragraph that says "What about derivatives of kitniyot -- e.g. corn oil, peanut oil, etc? This is a difference of opinion. Many will use kitniyot-based oils on Passover, while others are strict to only use olive or walnut oil." We've always gotten olive or canola or safflower for Pesach, but I've definitely seen specificially KP bottles of peanut oil on the shelf.

I may look for quinoa, just to try it. And wild rice, huh? I like that...doubt my kids will, though. More matzah for them! (Any idea on wild rice points?)

According to last year's food companion, 1 cup cooked is 3 points. However, I don't know if that's calculated like brown rice, including some kind of fat. It's definitely lower, but I would check the labels.

I'll do another search and see if I can find you something more satisfying on the oil and corn syrup in your marshmallows issues. ;) I was actually going to ask you if the marshmallows actually said "corn syrup and/or something else", as I believe Coca-Cola does. But I looked back at your post and saw that you mentioned a whole explanation from a rabbi on it, so I'm just as stumped as you are. Perhaps more observant Jews won't eat it? I have an uncle that won't eat items observed by certain Rabbis because he doesn't like their views, despite the Rabbi being 'ultra-Orthodox' (my uncle is Frum).

Dina

Oh, yes, I know there are Rabbis whose hashgacha is not good enough for the Day School around here. They don't permit food from the local kosher supermarket! There are those guys who put their names on the Hebrew National dogs--I'm sure that gives them a heck of a lot of credibility (although it's plenty good enough for me!). And there's this guy, Ralbag I think is his name, who is the rabbi behind either triangle-K or halfmoon-K, I forget which. We went into a restaurant in Philly during Pesach last year where they have a special "Passover menu." Well, the menu is a separate sheet showing he has provided the supervision. This is all well and good--but the REAL menu (the year-round one) is a regular treif restaurant menu with the usual breakfast specials (bacon, sausage, etc.) and they serve from either menu at the same time. I don't even think it was a separate room or anything. Again, o.k. with me, but what was Rabbi Ralbag thinking?

BTW, I seem to recall we ordered matzo brei with lox in it--fabulous! I never would have thought of preparing that. It was delish. I'd forgotten about it until just now.

BTW, Jodi, I forgot to thank you for the brownie recipe. I may give it a shot. DH loves bananas, but I don't -- do you taste them?

Okay, now for the good stuff. First of all, an explanation on the oils. They don't specifically mention corn syrup, but it might be the same idea:

http://www.ohr.org.il/ask/ask147.htm

I actually don't know the leanings of this site, so I don't know if the answerer is Conservative or Orthodox. However, when I looked at the home page, the Deans looked pretty Frum.

I know the next site is pretty heavy-duty (they have things like which ovens have a 'legal' Shabbos setting). Now, their explanation makes more sense to me. In a nutshell, they say to 'watch out' for K for P labelings on stuff imported from Israel. American heckshers will cater more to Ashke****m, where Israeli heckshers cater more to Sephardim. That will make me think twice before buying those delicious milk chocolate bars by Elite for Pesach (okay, 3 times, since I'd already think twice about whether they were point-worthy ;) ).

http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/pesachart/

By the way, if you're interested in other subjects, I found these articles through searches on http://www.google.com which I've found to be a fantastic search engine. For these, I just entered 'peanut oil passover' and 'corn syrup passover'.

Dina

String Beans are not a legume. Botanically, that is. I'm baffled by that, as well as sesame seeds (and my grandparents were frum, and we ate sesame candy all through the hoiday including halvah which is made w/ sesame seeds. ) Poppy seeds. Oy. I still say chestnuts are legal (as is wild rice) and yes, it's only 3 points per cup, cooked.

I don't think chestnuts are a bean in any way, so I would think they'd be okay.

I always thought that string beans were a legume. If they're not, what are they? And as for sesame seeds, I always ate those honey-sesame candies, but then again they come from Israel. Hmmm.

Dina

Here are a couple of items that refer to the baking powder/baking soda issue:

http://www.koshercooking.com/resource/kosher.html

http://www.fatfree.com/archive/1997/nov/msg00312.html

And, I looked at a bunch of sources that contained the words sesame seeds and Passover. It seems that all of the sources that mention sesame seeds either say they are kitniot (although I don't know why) or they are listed as ingredients in Sephardic dishes. I called my mom, and she's as surprised as the rest of us were. I think she went off to do a search of her own.

As for finding Halvah that's labeled, it's most likely the same brand as the honey-sesame candies I enjoyed -- Joyva -- which is an Israeli product.

The things you learn every day!

Dina

I called and emailed the Cornell Agriculture Extension Service yesterday. I await a reply on the string bean issue. I will share the information as soon as it comes in! And, what about lima beans? Fava beans? oy, again.

I actually did a search on google.com (string beans legumes) and the references that were agricultural in nature all said that string beans were legumes (EPA classification, Penn State, etc.). One of them also specifically stated lima beans, although I'm curious as to why you would question lima or fava beans as being any different than kidney, black, pinto, etc. beans.

Dina

FYI.. Chestnuts are a fruit like any other nut - they grow on trees.
I'm interested in hearing what everyone else found out about the beans.

Fall into the botanical family of FABACEAE or LEGUMINOSAE (the family names are synonyms). Snap beans, synonymous w/ string beans are botanically classified as Phaseolus vulgaris; (genus = Phaseolus; species = vulgaris). They are in the same family (Fabaceae) as butter beans, fava beans, garbanzo (chick) beans; peas, and lima beans; all of which have different genus and species classification, but are indeed, LEGUMES, so I humble myself before you all. Corn is another animal entirely. Not at all a legume. But, let's not go there.

Corn: is considered a grass (NOT A LEGUME) and is classified as Zea mays. (Family - grass, genus and species, zea mays). All of this information comes from the "National Gardening Association Dictionary of Horticulture", Penguin Books, pub;, 1994. Maize (Zea mays) and wild rice (Zizania aquatica) are both members of the Poaceae (the grass family).

Wow. I'm impressed by the number of messages here. For some reason I got told when there wre initial updates but not the rest. :-(

On K for Passover, one of the reasons some of us do look explicitly for this labeling is because a lot of items (e.g., Equal) have hidden additives. Sure they could substitute something else or just leave out the additive but the companies making the products often don't.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions. Everyone who has offered recipes, please post them. Even if I don't use them this year, it would be great to use in future years.

Now for my next question. I need vanilla for one of my recipes. Unfortunately, the vanilla extract for Passover didn't get out here this year (we always have *something* that doesn't make it; hey we got Diet Coke for the first time in *years*). So I need to substitute. I can use vanilla bean but I'm not sure what the equivilants are. Anyone got any ideas?

Thanks.

Alaa-

If it weren't so close to the holiday and I weren't so behind in my preparations (or if one of the things I was behind in involved a trip to the supermarket), I'd offer to send it to you. You may want to post a general question, since some of the people who may know the answer aren't looking at the Passover thread.

Maybe you can try some of the general cooking sites, like Cooking Light or Epicurious?

Dina

I spoke too soon. I did a search, and there was something on Epicurious about it. They suggested cutting up 2 vanilla beans in several pieces and letting them steep in 1/4 cup of Vodka for..... a month, which you obviously don't have.

Sorry.
Dina

Thanks for the suggestion. I've posted a general query about the vanilla and a similar problem with wine vinegar.

I seem to remember, in the past, that there was a way to substitute a certain amount of vanilla bean for vanilla and it worked just fine. Hopefully someone else will know. I posted it under this thread because I suspect this is a common problem for Passover.

What about vanilla sugar? I don't know if that made it over to you either.

As a follow up, I made the vanilla sugar. It came out great. Thanks!

As an alternative, my friend (who came the night which did not have the cake with the vanilla sugar in it) decided to use extra orange rind and a little oj instead of the vanilla. This also worked great. So there are some alternatives for next year.

So all of you who have civilized choices for Pesach, care to send a care package next year? I'd happily pay postage.

Thanks again for everyone's help.