General Diet Plans and Questions - Fat Fallacy




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weightylady
09-16-2003, 12:11 PM
I just ordered the book "The Fat Fallacy". Has anyone read/tried/heard of it? If so, what kind of success have you had, if any?


Suzanne 3FC
09-17-2003, 08:41 PM
I've not read the book, but it has a lot of great reviews on Amazon.

From what I can tell by the description, it compares the French way of eating to our own. I think he compares the quality of food, and blames our weight issues on the highly processed foods we eat. It sounds like an interesting book, and we'll be anxious to hear what you think of it :)

The French do eat fatty foods and they do stay thin. However, recent studies of the French lifestyle shows that they just eat smaller portions than us, so that's how they stay thin. This was mentioned in several news articles in the last few weeks.

A recent study in the journal 'Psychological Science' reported that the French stay slim by eating smaller portions. A comparison showed that serving sizes in France are much smaller than those in America. For example, an American chocolate bar was 41 percent larger than a French chocolate bar. A U.S. soft drink was 50 percent larger, and a hot dog was 63 percent bigger. Chinese restaurants in America serve up to 72 percent more food than they would received at a Chinese restaurant in France.

bicker
09-18-2003, 08:07 AM
I'm sure serving sizes have something to do with it. I think it would also be easy to show that the French have a higher average daily activity level (longer walks to work, more stairs, less reliance on mechanical convenience, ...) However, I'm not sure that I'd look to France, today, as the ideal to aim for. They, like most of Europe, are adopting American habits over time, and paying the price.


weightylady
09-18-2003, 09:33 AM
Well, I was excited to get the book, but basically, the book is about portion sizes and adapting the mediterranean food pyramid. The differences are red meat only once every other week, cheese and dairy fats and whole grains and complex carbs make up the bulk of your diet. But yeah, portions are important. He tells you throughout most of the book why Americans are fat, but we all already knew that. Then, he talkes about dangerous surgeries, stomach stapling, gastric bypass, etc., and then provides you with a few recipes at the end of the book.

He tells you to serve your foods in courses. Always eat your salad last to cleanse your palate for dessert. Don't start eating until everyone else gets their food, eat slowly, put your fork down between bites, you know, the same stuff we've been hearing for years and years. Eat slow, blah, blah, blah. Wine in moderation, blah, blah, blah. An ounce of cheese here, an ounce of dark chocolate to end your meal, blah, blah, blah. Basically, eat what you want, but don't be a pig about it. That's the difference. I don't know what I was expecting, but that's the gist of the book.

Oh, and stay away from processed foods, he calls them Faux Foods, only eat read food, you know, nothing from a box etc., etc. Was I expecting a miracle that you allow me to eat whatever I wanted? Probably, but I know it doesn't exist. Oh well, enough for me. Don't buy the book. We already know everything he says.

MrsJim
09-18-2003, 04:22 PM
Ah so basically another book about the "french paradox" as 60 Minutes called it, what, 11 years or so ago...

I haven't seen the book myself, but I betcha it can be summed up pretty well in this article by Michael Fumento:

On the Thin Side of the World:
Europeans Eat Less Than We Do, Exercise Informally
By Michael Fumento
January 19, 1998
Copyright 1998 Michael Fumento

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any American who has ever visited Europe can tell you how much thinner Europeans are than we. Any European who has recently arrived here will gladly regale you with stories about how stunningly fat he thinks we are.

No European country even comes close to us in terms of obesity. The average North American is more than 16 pounds heavier than the average Northern European. But gross obesity is where we really excel. We have almost three times as many grossly obese people as Sweden; four times as many as the Netherlands.

Yet by our standards they are doing everything wrong.

Low-fat and no-fat cookies, cakes and desserts are virtually nonexistent in Europe. You're more likely to find a statue of the Duke of Wellington in France than a Snackwell's cookie.

Europeans get almost no wonderful diet advice thrown at them, like we do Ė by the government and those wonderful women's magazines that regularly offer "the last diet you'll ever need." Only the U.K. provides food labels with fat and calorie content. Without our "solutions," Europeans are so much thinner than we. Why?

Our food portions look like something out of Jurassic Park.

Europeans have more appreciation for the quality of food, while to Americans, quantity has a quality all its own. Muffins are now five times or more their original size. Pastry shops sell doughnuts the size of plates, perhaps 10 times larger than the originals.

The original bottle of Coca-Cola held 6 ounces; now the standard bottle from a machine is 20 ounces and convenience stores sell 64-ounce sodas (containing more than 800 calories). Yet the typical European Coca-Cola bottle is about 8 ounces.

My favorite European candy bar comes in only one size, 20 grams. My favorite American candy bar's small size is three times bigger.

Europeans haven't been indoctrinated with the low-fat/no-fat nonsense. "The studies are clear," says Dr. Walter Willlett, chairman of the nutrition department at the Harvard School of Public Health. "It's a myth that it's just the fat in your diet that makes you fat. ... It doesn't make any difference where your calories come from."

We don't get nearly as much informal exercise.

If you see a jogger in Paris or Brussels, it's probably an American. Europeans are walkers; we are drivers and passengers. They have a great advantage in that things are much closer together in their cities. But Americans can easily work more informal exercise into their schedules, such as parking the car as far from the store entrance as possible and taking the stairs whenever possible instead of the elevator.

American food is systematically stripped of fiber.

The American diet seems to treat fiber (the indigestible part of fruits and vegetables) with more loathing than cockroaches. Europeans eat much more high-fiber (whole grain) bread, cereal, fruits and vegetables than we do. A recent survey found that most Americans who ate any whole-grain food at all ate less than a serving a day. More than half consumed no whole-grain cereals during the previous two weeks. A 1996 survey of shoppers found that for 80 percent, the first item they looked for on a label was fat content. Only 3 percent said fiber.

Yet, there is overwhelming evidence linking high fiber intake with slimness. For example, one study comparing the self-reported diets of lean and obese women found that the lean women's diet contained 45 percent more fiber than that of their obese counterparts. Another found that women given a small citrus and grain fiber supplement for three months lost about four and a half pounds more weight than the comparison women who didn't take the supplement. Over a year, that would be an 18-pound loss without cutting a single calorie or spending so much as five minutes on a treadmill.

We hide behind excuses.

Americans have built up an aura of inevitability, victimization and rationalization around obesity. Lat year's big excuse was, "I have the fat gene." Strange how the gene seems to manifest itself only on this side of the Atlantic.

This year's big excuse is, "I'm fat but I'm fit, and that's all that counts." Wrong. You may have good cholesterol, glucose and blood pressure levels, but all that fat takes an inevitable toll. Studies dating back literally a hundred years show clearly that the fatter you are, the shorter your life expectancy.

We are also largely institutionalizing obesity, with clothes catering to obese women on practically every street corner, popular magazines like People proclaiming on the cover, "Who Says Size Counts?" and the politically correct toiletry chain, The Body Shop, using an obese Barbie-type doll as a mascot. (Interestingly, The Body Shop stores in Europe do not use the doll.) The Mattel company has finally caved into demands and made Barbie herself fatter.

We're tied to the Tube.

Americans watch more than four hours of television a day on an average, more than twice the average European. This fattens us up by keeping us from doing calorie-burning activity and by bombarding us with tempting food commercials. This is especially true with younger Americans. Researchers reported in the Journal of the American Dietetic Association that "television viewing was the best single correlate" to children's fatness.

We're in too much of a hurry.

Europeans generally take life easier, with longer vacations and (more importantly here) longer meals. Americans seem to have a need to get our food fast and wolf it down even faster, turning what should be a sensual experience into a drag race.

When it comes to trying to get rid of excess flab, we can't wait for that either. The fat we put on over a period of decades we want to remove permanently in a few weeks. The urban landscape is dotted with signs promising "Lose 30 Pounds in 30 Days!"

One of last year's biggest-selling diet books was The 5-Day Miracle Diet. Not quick enough for you? You should also buy The 4-Day Wonder Diet. Yet the slower you lose, the easier it is to stick to your regimen and the more likely you are to keep the pounds off.

Miracles come from God, not from diet book authors, weight-loss clinics or pharmaceutical companies. With 300,000 Americans a year dying of obesity, we need to get serious about our national weight problem. To be more slim, Americans must do when they want to be chic: Imitate the Europeans.


And a personal comment: I haven't yet been to France - but I have traveled to London a couple of times - and from what I saw, they *do* walk a lot more and/or rely on public transportation (which still means a lot of walking). Of course, McDonald's and other American fast-food companies have made inroads - but it's true that the traditional British scone is at least 1/4 the size of the ones I see here in America...and the portion sizes overall are significantly smaller - and meals are more relaxed and of a longer duration (rather than 'gulp and go').

aphil
09-19-2003, 09:48 AM
There are actually a few foods that I tend to be more European about...and chocolate is one of them. I don't buy Snackwel's or fat free puddings or any of that anymore...on the occasion when I do "need" it-I go down to a local fine chocolate shoppe, and buy a single (full fat) dark chocolate truffle and savor it slowly. I found that eating that one "high quality" candy does the trick better for me than eating an entire box of "fake goodies." So-in a sense, I think there is a lot of truth to this.
Americans have definitely been trained to be lazy-we are alway on the lookout for the easiest to prepare meal, the fastest line, the closest parking space...and the largest food portion for the money.
Aphil

antidieter
10-25-2003, 09:42 PM
I find the article on europeans eating higher fat than us interesting. and that they eat smaller portions. they eat smaller portions because of body controlled eating not because they have extrodinary self control. other wise they would be very fat.

they don't go on caloire reduced diets and they don't obsess about weight and so the battle with the body never begins. thus teh smaller portions are because the body isn't trying to do any fat storing to replace fat stores lost through dieting efforts.

the secret is body controlled eating not mind controled because of all the diet propaganda we are all suffering from here in america.


by the way this body controlled eating doesn't mean the person will always be obese. it just means the body has to be convinced that famines (undereating for any reason) don't occur. this takes time. in my case it has been a little over a year plataueing waiting for my body to get the message that undereating will never occur again, once this message is clear to it the body not me, will decrease the appetite or change the cravings to leaner foods, for fat loss. in fact my appeitite has changed dramatically I crave healthier food I don't crave the junk and I feel more like moving this is something I am not forcing. in fact it surprised me.

WARNING, THIS METHOD IS EXTRMELY SLOW, AND THE RESULTS CAN TAKE YEARS TO ACHEIVE. BUT THE RESULTS ARE PERMANENT.YOU MUST BE FIRMLY CONVINCED IN THE PRINCIPLES OF NATURALLY THIN, BASED ON THE BOOK HOW TO BE NATURALLY THIN BY EATING MORE AND BREAKING OUT OF THE FOOD JAIL BY JEAN ANTENELLO.

bicker
10-26-2003, 06:56 AM
It should be noted that the method is indeed slow, and the results can take years to achieve, but the results are NOT always permanent. Like all approaches there is success and failure.

antidieter
10-27-2003, 11:22 AM
I have to state the 95 percent of dieters fail. well the diets fail them. no point in blaming the person who has endured tremendous deprivation and hunger (which is painful) to try to lose weight and keep it off.

so the failure rate is too high. but the plan I was talking about has a 98 percent success rate (as opposed to a 95 percetn failure with other plans). those who follow it are basically body controlled eaters. they lose and maintain for over 10 years without pain suffering worrying about holiday eating or anything.

the 95 percent who end up the losers in the unhappy way are mind controlled eaters. the 5 percent who succeed and keep the weight off for over 5 years usually are termed anoreixic. they have to remain extremely disciplined to fight their bodies survival mechnism. they know that if they let up the controls even a little then they may start eating and not be able to stop..

so too they usually eat just enough to "medicate" their hunger. just enough to maintain their strict controls but not enough to stop the extreme pain they have to endure. the physical and mental pain. they have to be constantly on guard.

who can maintain that for life? the consequences is the obessession with every caloire eaten, critisium of others who eat all the time, even tho they are not obese, maybe a little chubby but in no way fat.

the pain, the talking about diets all the time, the extreme exercising for weight loss not for health and enjoyment and the list can go on.

but the worst consequences is if they don't eventually give into their hunger and gain their weight back they die. it is that simple. they literally starve themselves to death. if they maintain a deficite to keep from gaining any weight their bodies are feeding on their muscles and the heart is a muscle to make up the difference. afterall the body can only lower the metabolism so much.

who wants to spend their life having to be on the watch for not eating to much, for the intense hunger, cravings the weakness and the fatigue that hits these undereaters (and all dieters would have to maintain undereating to maintain weight lost otherwise the body would take any extra and store it because of trying to recover from a famine)

but if the weight loss is natural and instigated by the body and not by the dieter the battle with the body never begins the body controls the rate of loss and when and the loss will be fat only not muscle.

once the weight hits the area the body wants to be based on the availabitly of food and if the person doesn't take over the controls then the loss will be permeanent.

elimiate famines of every kind you eliminate the need for excess fat. Naturally we need a certain amount, the body knows how much. so we should not try to look like the actresses or models on tv. they do extreme things to achieve an unnatural thiness, the type that was never meant to be.

MrsJim
10-27-2003, 07:13 PM
I for one would like to see some studies on these "95 percent failure rates" and "98 percent success rates" that you are throwing around as though they were proven facts, Antidieter.

Anything published in JAMA or is this just something you gleaned off a message board or a website with an agenda? Just curious...because I have lost and KEPT OFF over 100 pounds of fat for 12 years now...and I don't believe that anyone would consider me "anorexic".

Before you send everyone in a panic, check your facts.

antidieter
10-27-2003, 10:32 PM
good for you. you are indeed a rare individual. I wish I knew someone who lost alot of weight like you and wasn't anorexic. and I know a few believe me. they are in a battle for life. a battle against their survival instincts. if you don't have that battle I am very happy for you. keep it up. these statistics i Have read in medical books over the years the kind doctors read but the average laymen never reads, too technical. plus on the tv and magezines articles written by doctors, dietitian etc.

this is over many years of reading and listening and observing people, those who diet, those who don't those overweight and those who are not.

the success rate of the naturally thin is based on people I know who are following have followed and it and those who persist and do not fall for the diet propagnda who have lost kept it off and do not have to worry about whether they will all of a sudden lose control there is no fear of binging ther is no fear that they will start eating and not stop, there is no will power involved.

in fact the only willpower is to not lose faith in the principles because the major results take years, tho there are signs you are on the right track before that.

these are the little victories that keep you from losing faith and going back to mind controlled eating because of wanting to speed the weight loss up.

And please, my intentions are not to panic, but if I can get people to understand the principles then they can know it is there once they are unable to do teh mind controlled eating plans.

they have something to fall back. oh by the way that principles are working for me. just ask my husband. ice cream left in the freezer for months. that is something I could never do and if I dieted, then trying to avoid teh binging phase would be utter torture.

You know the consitition forbids cruel and unusual punishment for criminals, and obese people are treated like they are guilty of being gluttons and to expect them to endure a life time of agony just isn't fair.

so forcing the body to get by on less forcing fat loss and trying to fight the body's attempt to replace those stores in order to prepare for the next famine (which to the body will happen because it keeps happening) is utter torture. to be beaten, flogged and pushed around is less painful compared to that.

pain and survival are not good friends. dieting is like trying to cut your hand off. no matter how much you want to cut that hand off once you start cutting and hit those nerves you either stop or have to endure the intense pain and if you do succeed you will bleed to death. only a rare individual can endure that kind of pain, someone who knows how to numb themselves.

unfortuanantly that is very few.

mthrgoos68
10-27-2003, 10:39 PM
Wow, I don't know what kind of diet you're on, but I don't find changing my lifestlye as difficult as cutting my hand off. Yes, it's hard, but the reward is so worth it. Feeling healthier, living longer, having more energy, and so much more.

antidieter
10-27-2003, 11:22 PM
i am no longer on any diet but rather I am on a antidiet program.

those days are over. I have done the ww things the eat less and exercise thing, I have seen my friends on physicians weight loss their determination etc.

the pain and suffering is no longer a part of my life. not the physical, one but the mental trying to help others understand what I have come to understand adn what took years to come to understand.

anyway I too had the weight loss successes and the feeling of jubilee only to eventually be replaced with fatigue, fogginess, lack of desire to move around much and the intense hunger that would not go away.

and I in no way went on a severe diet either. just cut down a little except the time i did ww only to develope gallstones which my doctor attributed to my dieting efforts.

Suzanne 3FC
10-28-2003, 02:43 AM
I know a lot of people that have lost weight successfully - and kept it off - through a healthy diet and exercise program. I agree with mthrgoos68 in that changing our lifestyle isn't that hard. It just takes practice and motivation. Fortunately, we see a lot of inspiring examples, including Mrs. Jim's own success. Fortunately, hers is not a rare example. Weight Watchers is also a good and healthy program that most doctors will recommend, as long as it is followed properly.

We have a lot of very supportive groups here, and I'm not aware of any that have described their diets as torturous or compared the experience to being flogged. Dieting can actually be fun and often includes a lot of food exploration, as we try new things. Exercise can also be fun. Exercise IS recommended by most physicians and reputable diet programs to assist in weight loss.

We love to read success stories, and see how people's lives change when they first notice weight loss, or how much energy they have after following a healthy diet and exercise program. Their lives improve and they become happier and healthier.

We realize that you have found a method of weight loss that you find acceptable for your personal goals. Please realize that every person is different, and each person needs to find what works for them. Our members generally take a very positive approach to weight loss and enjoy the friendships they make during their journey. Support is a very important part of a weight loss program, as well as proper nutrition and exercise.

bicker
10-28-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by antidieter
I have to state the 95 percent of dieters fail. well the diets fail them. no point in blaming the person who has endured tremendous deprivation and hunger (which is painful) to try to lose weight and keep it off.If you truly want to be fair, then you really do have to place a good amount of the blame on the dieter. Many diets do indeed "work" if adhered to. The failure typically stems from failure to achieve the behavioral modification necessary to sustain the diet. You can demand that diet regimens come with effective behavior modification support, but you can also demand to be exempt from taxes and get all your groceries for free -- that doesn't necessarily make it so. Don't get me wrong: It is *hard*. Many important things are hard. That's life.but the plan I was talking about has a 98 percent success rate (as opposed to a 95 percetn failure with other plans). I don't believe you know of any plan that results in sustained maintenance of a significant amount of weight-loss over a significant period of time. You sound like a snake oil salesman. You've got a credibility gap you need to fill. the 5 percent who succeed and keep the weight off for over 5 years usually are termed anoreixic.You're mistaken. Anorexia is a psychological condition that has nothing to do with healthy eating and good fitness. Sounds to me that you're grasping at straws, trying to defend your personal preference by attempting to cast reckless aspersions on other approaches, rather than proving the efficacy of your own approach. who can maintain that for life?I'll refer you to the National Weight Control Registry, where there are thousands of case studies proving that you're wrong.

Meg
10-28-2003, 10:38 AM
AntiDieter ó

Like almost everything else in life, weight loss is about personal choice. We can choose to eat and live in a way that results in us being overweight and unhealthy or we can make the food and exercise choices that allow us to lose fat and live healthy lives. Iíve made my choice ó Iíve lost (and am maintaining) a 122 pound weight loss. Every day I wake up and make deliberate and conscious choices about what I will eat and how I will move my body that day to sustain my weight loss.

You, of course, have the right to choose the eating and exercise plans that you are comfortable living with and that are right for you . But with that choice comes responsibility. These are your decisions and you own the consequences that naturally flow from them. You canít choose to eat more calories than you body burns and then lament that diets don't work. You canít choose to be inactive and then say that you just canít lose weight.

Your posts tell me that you are someone who struggles with your weight and that you are looking for something ó besides yourself ó to blame for your failure to lose weight. Youíre spending a lot of time posting (both here and on many other threads) that diets donít work. Perhaps you could take some of that energy and direct it inward, examining your life and the choices that you have made for yourself. You are not a passive participant in your own life. You are in control of how you want to live through every choice that you make, every day.

Iím not suggesting that itís easy to change the destructive eating and exercise habits of a lifetime ó I personally know it isnít. But there are many people here at 3FC, including some ďbig losersĒ who have taken the time to respond to you here, who can tell you it is so worth doing.

Most of the wonderful people here at 3FC are trying to make the choices to live healthy lives. For those of us who have struggled with eating issues for most of our lives, that means putting a fair amount of thought and attention into eating and exercise. The right choices just donít come naturally to us. But youíll find that we all think itís worth the effort. Certainly for me, Iíll never choose to go back to 257 pounds.

Meg

aphil
10-28-2003, 11:19 AM
I totally agree with what Meg, MrsJim, bicker, and Suzanne have said...
I struggle with a weight problem because I am an emotional eater...I tend to nibble too much when I am bored or stressed out...I own it-it is ME. When someone makes the final decision to lose weight and keep it off for life-this is the connection that has to be made. You have to become accountable for your own actions-and stop blaming McDonald's, your slow thyroid (yeah right), your medication, using the phrase "I am big boned" and all of the other cop outs and excuses that people use to blame something else on their weight problem and not themselves. When I hear people making excuses for being fat-I know they are not truly ready to change their life.
There are a lot of people who have lost and kept it off-and it is because they have finally accepted the blame for being fat, and have decided to do something about it. Noone made me eat those Twinkies but me...and I did it because I loved the immediate gratification of eating them, they tasted good, and I had nothing better to do...:lol: The buck stops here.
Not all successful losers are anorexic, and most overweight people are so because of eating too much and not exercising enough-plain and simple. We want the parking spot closest to the store, we supersize our meals at McDonald's, and we use our treadmill as a coatrack. Heck, I even saw tons of parents DRIVING their kids around trick or treating last year-stopping at every house and waiting in their van...when I was a kid we WALKED through the whole neighborhood and worked for our sack of goodies...sheesh.
Aphil

antidieter
10-28-2003, 12:49 PM
I wish it was that simple. but it is not. I have a history of dieting for 25 years. and i know so many others. if it were a simple matter of willpower then I would have lost the weight and kept it off.

I had enough willpower for 20 people. I know so many of my friends too who had more willpower then me. But the famine senstivitiy of our bodies was stronger than our willpower.

I am talking about people with discipline that you wouldn't believe. all i have read so far is the same thing that has been parroted over the last 100 years of diets and the obesity problem is on the rise because people have been told that they eat to much so what is the natural thing to do? eat less.

but that doesn't explain the long term failure. these failure rates can't be because people have no willpower. it takes tremendous supernatural strenght to fight a body that is bent on keeping you alive and replacing those fat stores whether you want to or not.

sometimes teh body will put up with the famine (1500 caloires is a famin, 2100 is a famine if it is less than the body needs) maybe a month 6 months or even a year. but for most the body sooner or later takes the control out of the dieters hands and the diet goes to waste.

I bet if you could interview all the obese people in the world you would get the same thing. dieting to lose exercising to lose (I used to walk every other day and jog the subsequent days i would jog 4 miles each time)

you would find that at some point the body takes over and despite all their efforts to twart it they seem to to into a trance like state and eat and eat and eat. this is the body's attempt to recover from teh famine (undereating) to prepare for the next.

telling someone to stop the binging phase of the famine feast cycle is like telling a person with severe depression to snap out of it. it is chemically induced and all the will power in the world will not correct those chemicals that is why they have medications for that condition. so goes teh binging stage. it is chemically induced by the body.

it is the survival mechnisim in action. I also want to clarify something else. not all individuals are famine senstive. these people can undereat, eat late, get excessivly hungry etc, and the body doesn't respond with fat storing or slowing the metabolism.

this is genetic. this low famine sensitive individual has no more control over that genetic aspect than a person who has a high famine sensitivity to change those biochemicals that are the body's response to undereating.
\
I better clairify this too. famines can also be quality famines too. the quantity of calaries maybe high but the nutrient levels are low and the body picks this up and interprets this too as time to store fat for a future famine.

thus if a famine sensitive individual eats mcdonalds and junk all the time this will trigger the save up fat for a future famine scenario.

I hope you understand this better.

antidieter
10-28-2003, 12:58 PM
I wanted to stress to to read these books. it can explain things better than me.

How to be naturally thin by eating more
Breaking out of the food jail both by jean antenello.

eat what you crave and lose 80 pounds article in the for women first mag July 8 2002 the author of this book has a book called eat it all and be thin forever. I plan on ordering it in the future but I already ordered a differnt book unrelated to dieting.

Losing it by laura fraser

The fat Instinct (I found it at the library. don't remember the authors name.)

another book I read was a doctors manuel at the library on obeisity studies or obesity. It is a large green text book for doctors. can't remember the exact title.

I read some interesting things in there.

MrsJim
10-28-2003, 01:31 PM
Did you even READ what Meg wrote? I don't recall seeing "willpower" mentioned in any of our posts...

Ah, I see that one of your sources is First for Women, also known as the magazine that has a new miracle diet on the cover every week...(next to an article about 'no-fail cookies' or some such dessert recipe).

I am QUITE familiar with "Losing It" - even quoted it a few times. However, I regard the book as more of an expose of what goes on behind the diet industry - not as a manifesto for fat acceptance or giving up control of what you put into your mouth (or for that matter, blaming others for your own self-induced condition of obesity).

Meg summed it up better than I could...It's all about choices. I assume that you are an adult...no one forces you to eat the junk food....or buy it at the store and keep it in your house. If you are a fat adult, for the most part, it's not because someone is force-feeding you like a foie gras duck - it's because you are making the choice to eat too much and not exercise enough.

That's why I made the choice 12 years ago to make some major PERMANENT LIFESTYLE CHANGES in my life. Is it easy? - not at first, but it gets easier and the rewards of being a healthy weight are rich - both mentally AND physically.

I dunno - I'm getting the impression that you're either not reading what we're saying here...so I might be wasting my time by posting the following snippet from an excellent book by Michael Fumento, The Fat of the Land: The Obesity Epidemic and What Americans Can Do to Help Themselves but what the heck - maybe someone else will get something out of it...
Obesity as a Reflection of Societal Problems

...Long before our waistlines began to balloon we were building a society that promotes values that themselves promote obesity. "This population-wide problem [of obesity]," editorialized Northwestern University epidemiologist Jeremiah Stamler, M.D. in the Archives of Internal Medicine, "like others of its kind, is best comprehended as a societal problem, rooted in what was referred to earlier as '...disturbances in human culture.' " Likewise, stated the IOM's Weighing the Options, "The root of the problem...must lie in the powerful social and cultural forces that promote an energy-rich diet and a sedentary lifestyle. But if social and cultural forces can promote obesity, these same forces should be able to control it. Therein lies the still unrealized potential for preventing obesity."

The obesity epidemic isn't just an isolated problem in America; it's also the symptom of various problems, of various trends that continue to gain steam. One is the cult of victimization, in which everything not right in our lives is somebody or someone else's fault. The British magazine The Economist observed with bemusement that in the United States, "If you lose your job you can sue for the mental distress of being fired. If your bank goes broke, the government has insured your deposits," even if you didn't pay for that insurance, as was the case with the S&L bailout. "If you drive drunk and crash, you can sue somebody for failing to warn you to stop drinking. There is always somebody else to blame." But you can't sue your ancestors, so you just curse them for giving you a "fat gene" that you've never been tested for but you "just know" you must have it. It's not your fault that there's three hours of TV programming every night that you simply must watch. It's not your fault that the restaurant serves portions big enough for a Boy Scout troop and since it's there you have to eat it all. It's not your fault that your fat; that's just the way it is.

Another trend is the self-esteem movement, in which we are told that we must not do anything to make anyone have anything less than a glowing opinion of himself or herself. This cult has made its greatest inroads in education. Some schools now have as many as 26 valedictorians. 28% of college-bound seniors in 1972 reported having an A or B high-school average, while by 1993 it was 83% - even as the average SAT score fell by 35% during the same period. "Feeling good is an inalienable right," Steve Muller, former president of John Hopkins University, said sardonically. "Negative characterizations such as stupid, lazy, or dumb are offensive violations of the newly defined American right to individual self-esteem." The result is such anomalities as American students who rank last in international comparisions of math abilities yet rank first when asked how they feel about their math abilities. But that cult is moving into the obesity world, too, with books like Self-Esteem Comes in All Sizes, and fat activist groups calling themselves "The Network for Self-Esteem."

The underpinning of the cult is that there's clearly a connection between high self-esteem and accomplishment, but the cultists have the causality switched around. High self-esteem no more leads to accomplishment that opening an umbrella leads to rain. The basis for all self-improvement and advancement is a perceived need to improve or advance. Telling people that, whatever their current condition, all they need do is feel good about it locks them firmly into place. False self-esteem for schoolkids leads to dumbness and the dead-end jobs; false self-esteem for the obese simply leads to death.

The whole notion of self-esteem being all or nothing is also foolish. A normal, healthy-minded human being has certain things about which he is proud and others which he wishes to change. Myself, I have a lot to be proud of. I've become a success in a very tough field, I'm really a nice guy once you get to know me, and I've got a Claudia Schiffer calendar that she personally signed for me. On the other hand, for the longest time I was disgusted with my inability to get my weight down to a healthy level. But for that disgust, I wouldn't have lost the weight and you wouldn't be reading this book. Not long ago I had a terrible yelling problem, the brunt of which was borne by my girlfriend. Oh sure, I could have blamed my upbringing; after all, in my parents' house yelling was the main form of communication. I could have blamed my genes; they're finding a gene for everything else these days, why not one for yelling?...Or I could have smiled sweetly and said, "That's just the way I am, and if you say anything negative about it you'll harm my self-esteem."

What's wrong is that none of these reasons solved the underlying problem of my girlfriend being yelled at. Instead I took full responsibility for my own actions, I got therapy, and today I only yell when my computer crashes - for which no apology is requested or offered. Yes, perfection is an impossible and foolish goal, but a goal that says "Tomorrow I want to be a better person than I am today" is both obtainable and worthwhile. The touchy-feely self-esteem cult does for personal progress what emphysema does for deep breathing.

Suzanne 3FC
10-28-2003, 02:10 PM
Thanks for the great post! I think I'll head to the library later and see if they have a copy of "Fat of the Land" :D

Antidieter, I agree with all of the other posters in this thread, and also agree with MrsJim that maybe you haven't read them completely. There were a lot of valid points made. As the others stated, it's all about choices. We all got fat the same way. We consumed more than we burned.

If willpower really does seem like a supernatural strength to you, then you might want to focus less on this "famine response" topic and look into the emotional aspects of eating. This is a common issue with many dieters. Dr Phil's book on weight loss addresses these issues. There really isn't anything new in there, that hasn't been promoted by major health organizations before, but his book lumps it into one resource. It's solid advice that has helped a lot of people confront these issues and find the courage to make the right choices.

Good luck in your journey.

lizabeth
10-28-2003, 03:56 PM
Got to jump in...
Antidieter: Congratulations on finding out what works for you. Your viewpoint shows that there are as many different measures of success as there are approaches to getting there. I believe that is the premise upon which this website was founded and why I enjoy the lively discussions here.

The reason I don't think your method would work for me is that the body adapts to its level of caloric intake. If you don't gradually eat less and less calories, your body becomes comfortable at that weight and that new scale measurement becomes your set point. I personally NEED to see the scale numbers decline on a regular basis (1 to 2 lbs/ wk).

In defense of WW, there is a gradual stepdown in calories to keep you losing. I think the "anorexia" you speak of comes into play when a person taking in 3500 calories a day suddenly drops down to 1000 calories a day. It is conceivable that they would have to eat like a bird due to their metobolism stalling out (Not to mention problems resulting from the drastic lack of energy and sense of well-being that this diet would bring about).

My other concern is you don't mention exercise as a positive factor. Not only does it have an effect on weight, but it also protects your bones, heart and lungs. Getting enough exercise is even more important than losing weight.

The other point I want to make is a person needs realistic weight goals. My "optimum" healthy weight is 150 lbs. That said, it is unrealistic for me to make that my goal. My lifestyle doesn't support a weight that low. I feel at 175 lbs I'll be at the low end of the overweight scale and that, combined with exercise should extend my life and enable me to feel good and enjoy any foods that I might desire in moderation.

This works for me. If you have found something that works for you, I applaud you. This is not an easy fight, but one I can't give up on. I have come close to my goal, only to gain the weight back. These trials have not been for nothing. One important lesson I learned that gives me the edge this time is that during times of stress or loss, my goal will be to maintain my weight, not lose, until things straighten out. That way I won't be taking off the same lbs. over and over.

antidieter
10-28-2003, 05:27 PM
you all make valid points, but I would like to add. what makes you think I eat junk food?

i seldom eat junk. in fact when I eat enough real foods I find that I don't crave junk.

and as for that article in the magezine how do you know it is not the exception to the rule with diet articles as they go, if you haven't read it?

if i misled anyone to think exercise is not important to good health I apologize. it is so healhty for us. but to do it just for weight loss can lead to a dislike to it. I exercise for the enjoyment and I don't force myself to do it, and I don't worry about caloires or good or bad foods.

also what is wrong with being fat? why can't people just except the person as they are, and realize that it is not a character flaw that got them that way? there are so many contradictions on obesity causes this disease or that disease that no one can agree.

why do you suppose there is such hatred for fat people. afterall they are humans first and foremost. I personally hate being fat but not because of what others think but because I cannot do the things I once did, tho gradually my energy is coming back and I am walking again.

but that is no reason to think when you see a fat person that they have the sin of gluttony, or laziness or anything else that is negative for that matter.

many overweight people (especially the obese) that I have known and you probably know some who are kind, loving indivdiuals that are very intelligent.

hardly character flaws to me. try reading the references. they can explain things better than me. these are those who have been there done that and those in recovery thos who lost and kept it off as well as others who are just starting out or haven't made a decision yet.

as for willpower to maintain the weight loss through dieting efforts it takes extreme willpower to stay within a certain maintenance caloric limit to avoid the weight gain, that the body is desperatly trying to achieve all for the sake of our pitiful survival.

if you don't have to use willpower and it is not much effort for you to maintain the weight loss then you can consider yourself fortuanant.

think about this, if it takes discipline to get thin and stay that way does that mean those who are thin and have been all their lives are thin because they are disciplined? do they maintain it because they exercise self control or is it because they are body controlled eaters and dieting or food quality and quantity is not even considered in their vocabulary?

is it because they are one of those who have a very low famine senstivity or they never worry about caloires or diets and thus the battle with the body never begins?(i know this type person is getting rarer and rarer)

I know that socity automatically assumes that thinner people have more positive qualities such as self control, or are smart or whatever and fat people are automatically assumed to be gluttons or whatever negative qualities people dislike, but I am sure you know some naturally thins who are not self controled or smart or kind or loving.

StarPrincess
10-28-2003, 07:08 PM
Hey all -

I've been watching this thread and I have to say that I'm surprised at the tone that's been taken. This is a forum that's been very diversified and offers valuable input. There's no reason to bash individual choices for their health, diet, or anything else out there.

AntiDieter - Please keep in mind that we all come from different places. Why on earth would anyone expect that we would all take the same path even if there is a common goal? It's the diversity and the experience that's important here. I'm glad you found something that works for you, but I don't think the tone you've taken is going to get you many "converts".

mauvaisroux
10-28-2003, 08:43 PM
:chin:...hmmmm....interesting thread.

I agree with you there, StarPrincess!

While I can respect everyone's opionion, my personal philosophy is live and let live. I am quite happy with my "plan" and don't consider myself to be on a diet. I have the simple desire to eat in a healthy, well-blanced manner and take care of myself physically. If I lose weight along the way great-if not so what :shrug: . My main goal is to be healthy and fit.

I do my thing and I don't try to convert other people to my way of thinking-what works for them works for them and what works for me works for me.

I have been posting on this site for some time now and have always been happy with the level of support and the diversity of people and ideas available here.

antidieter
10-28-2003, 09:33 PM
I was unaware that I was being disrespectful. When I read some of the posts to what I have learned I felt like I was being yelled at. that didn't cause me to say in kind.

I wish everyone success.

Jennifer 3FC
10-28-2003, 11:36 PM
I would like to say to Antidieter that I don't think anybody here was telling you that you were lazy, or a gluton. We're a message board full of people with either weight problems now, or problems in the past! Many of us have been pegged for the same stereotype as well, and they were honestly trying to share with you their own reasons (or other popular reasons) for not losing weight, which if you read back over, you will see. I am glad I read this thread, because I found one or two excuses that I've been fooling myself with, as well. Mine - I have PCOS. I tend to lose weight about 1 pound a month. On good months I lose 2 pounds a month. Why don't I do it every month? Because I get frustrated and nibble. Who can work hard all the time for just a pound? I get frustrated and I go off of it. Therefore, I can't keep blaming PCOS. It's the difference of 8-12 pounds a year to 18-24 pounds a year. It adds up! If I plainly didn't go off my plan, I could see the difference. Instead, sometimes I don't lose at all. I didn't look at it from that perspective until tonight. This bare bones, lay it all out in the open approach has helped a lot of successful dieters, like MrsJim, Bicker, Meg and Aphil.

I think a lot of the tone that was expressed to you was because those people have read numerous results on weight loss and related issues from controlled studies and they did not match up to your plan at all. Also, as people with former weight problems, many of us have been fed so much crap from wonder diets, that it is normal to review new plans with a critical eye. We've seen dieters be swindled and taken advantage of for years!

The other members were asking you for your references because basically you were posting bits from the book that have never been proven before, but when you replied, you did not provide or acknowledge those requests, so the questioning continued. If you have any back up data, I'm sure people would be happy to read it. I'm sure the author of the book included that. Responding instead with a link to another message board (your own?) isn't very convincing!

bicker
10-29-2003, 07:32 AM
I think that's really the crux of the point. The request for evidence of efficacy and safety was made several times. How should be read the refusal to respond, if not as disrespect?

mauvaisroux
10-29-2003, 08:48 AM
With respect to the European way of life...

I have been over there several times as I have relatives in Europe and they do walk a lot more, they also have more street level shopping and less malls so you end up walking, taking the bus or subway and walking the rest of the way and strolling through the shopping district.

My family owns a bakery in Scotland and I remember visiting one summer for 6 weeks. Everyday I went into the store they gave me free goodies like strawberry tarts loaded with fresh cream and sugar donuts - I never ate like that at home. When I got home I had somehow managed to lose 5 lbs :shrug: .

I think part of it is that Europeans are more active on a daily basis-they seem to go out more and stroll the main streets and sit in cafes and things like that. Also they seem to take more time out for themselves and eating is a pleasure to be savored not rushed - we always stopped for tea breaks when I was visiting my relatives, no matter where we were.

Also they seem to rely on fresh ingredients more and eat less processed foods although they do have convenience foods and fast food outlets.

aphil
10-29-2003, 09:39 AM
Another point from your post anitdieter, that I wanted to bring up was saying talking about "those who have not had a hard time keeping off the weight/losing the weight" as in MrsJim, Meg, etc. I for one can tell you that they have not had anything "easy".
They have worked for it...They are always in the gym and making conscious decisions about their diet. It was nothing easy.
I can tell you that I lost a lot of weight and kept it off until becoming pregnant, and now I am slowly losing it from my last child-and will once again keep it off. It is not that it is "easy" or that I have willpower of steel...I have made exercise a priority in my life, and make what I eat a "mind" decision and not emotional. I do stray occasionally and eat something I shouldn't-none of us are perfect-but the key is to get right back on track again rather than to "feast mindlessly" the rest of the week.
I am sorry-I don't believe the principles behind the one book you recommended that compares us to animals and says that eating over 2000 calories-even of high quality foods can be a "famine". If I were training for a marathon maybe...but not with my current 45-60 minutes of exercise each day. No amount of reading about that will make me a "convert". I have lost and kept it off before my pregnancies using a moderate diet and exercise...and will do it again. I still eat a good amount of food-I am not starving...and it works for me. I am at a high risk of diabetes, and I cannot wait around for 4 years while my body "accepts its natural weight" and slowly starts losing with that plan.
I do not think there is anything wrong with being fat if that is the way someone wants to be...two of our best friends (a couple) together weight about 650 pounds...I don't care that they are fat-they are fun and I like them. I am concerned with their health problems that stem from it...but what they weigh is not my decision. For me-I don't want to be fat. It has nothing to do with the models and actresses in the magazines...it is because I am unhappy with my flabby arms and big butt, and because my aunt died from diabetes complications a few years a go when she was in her forties...I am only 28 and had gestational diabetes, and I don't want to be dead when my kids are teenagers. So accepting my fat and being happy with it are not an option for me.
I think this site is a great one, but I felt like you came here and immediately were looking for "converts" for your plan and began bashing all diet and exercise as a means to lose weight. If it works for you that is great-but everyone has plans that work for them too-and you need to respect that. I count calories, MrsJim has done Body For Life, Mauvais has done Weight Watchers...and we are all doing well with whatever we have chosen. The 98% of failed diets you talked about has nothing to do with if a plan works...the reason diets fail is because people want to lose weight quickly and then be finished with the work. They gain weight back because they slow or stop the exercise, and they slowly go back to eating the way that made them fat. I prefer not to call any of the plans that we do here "diets". They have to be plans that you can stick with for life...if you stop doing it, you will gain it back. My friend Mike struggles with this...he has successfully lost 30 pounds over an over with Atkins, but he refuses to go on to the "maintenance" part of the diet, and gains it back every time. This is why diets fail...it is not the fault of the plan, but the fault of the person who doesn't make a lifestyle change-and sees it as a short term commitment.
Aphil

StarPrincess
10-29-2003, 12:05 PM
Well said, aphil!

mauvaisroux
10-29-2003, 03:52 PM
I agree totally Aphil. As you pointed out I am on WW - I am not starving myself, I am eating well balanced meals, I do my own cooking, I don't buy prepackaged or pre processed meals and don't eat junk food often., I don't beat myself up if I have some chocolate now and again or gain a pound or two back. I have a healthy body image and I feel comfortable in my own skin. I am doing this for myself and for health reasons, it has nothing to do with media manipulation or imagery. :D

antidieter
10-29-2003, 10:22 PM
I understand where you are coming from. as for converts that wasn't my goal. rather my goal was to show another way that is seldom advocated because really the information is almost new.

I know several people on different diets, one is on a insulin resistance diet, another on the atkins. the one on atkins lost quite abit of weight. But I hope his health is not adversly affected since he doesn't eat any of fruit and I am guessing not alot of vegies.

Also from what I read about low or no carbs diets,(except the vegies carbs) they put the body in a state of ketosis. Isn't that what diebetics go into when their sugar is all messed up?

I read too can't remember exactly it was a while back, maybe it was the fat instinct book, I read so many medical articles from different doctors and such I forget where I got it exactly anyway this ketosis is considered a metabolic emergency. It also suppresses the appetite (and who wouldn't want that?)

But it cannot be sustained for a life time. ketosis is a temporary way for the body to fuel the brain. I would love to see long term studies on the effects of ketosis on the brain.by the way.

so as carbs are consumed the body goes out of ketosis and I can only make a educated guess on what that means.

As for the zone at least there you can eat fruit.

the friend who is doing the insulin diet did the zone so many times before giving it up to do the insulin thing diet. I don't know how she is doing as I haven't seen her for awhile.

I know she lost some weight, don't know how much. And for telling you what I learned both through study, reasoning on things, personal experience what I have seen in others etc,

I get enthusiatic about something and have to share. I even told my freinds the things I have been telling you and they look at me like I am insane.

I am sure if I had lived back in the middle ages and discovered that the earth was round and the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa I am sure they would of thought me insane too for going against the grain.

So if I seem dogmatic, that is my enthusiam coming through, and this is something i find hard to control for some reason, being overly enthusiatic about stuff, not just the naturally thin principles.

As for me when I talk diets I am referring the eat less thing. it doesn't have to be a structured diet advocated by a doctor or some book.

you know eat less than you burn thing. It would work if it were not for the body's biological survival instincts in those who survival instincts are very strong. Just if you all disagree with me that is okay.

you have to decide what is best for you. I just thought the purpose of message boards was to share what insights knowledgte expereinces etc we have gained.

I still have not lost faith in the naturally thin principles because they make too much biological sense. (by the way I have and still love the medical field and studying it, even tho I will never be a vet or doctor, still gives me joy, so I have the scienticfic mentality.)

I wanted so bad to be a horse vet. But my life took a different turn which is okay. if I hadn't I would of never met my wonderful husband.

Also I was not condemning your choices of ways to control weight, that would be intellectually insulting. that is not my intention.

I guess what I am saying is keep an open mind. ONe of my favorite activities before finally being able to get on the net was sitting at the library reading all the diet books I could. I read the following that I remember

The Serotonin connection.
The fat instinct.
Stop the insanity book by susan powter
The Obesity Handbook for doctors (I think that was the title) a large green medical book)
The Zone,
A book written by doctors on what they know about obesity and the hormones and how they effect weight regulation. I took alot of notes from that book. I have the name written in the notes if I can find it.

I read a women's medical journal, didn't get much info on weight but I found alot of other good stuff.
Eat more weight less
Carb addicts diet
I can't remember the rest. To give you an idea of the reading i did there were two rows just on diets and weight control and obesity studies. So I would guess I read almost half of them. Of course that doesn't mean I understood all of them LOL

Of course there was the experiences I had and watched in others. you can learn alot watching how others react to things and listening to their stories.

mauvaisroux
10-30-2003, 09:07 AM
I don't usually do this but I am calling you out on this Antidieter.
I went to the website you post on and read your post about 3FC.

Interesting how you are not looking for converts yet you had previously posted the link to that site and you said in your post over there that you had found one person who was going to buy the books you suggested. If you are just sharing information then why do you care if someone else buys the books or not?

Oh, and nice comments on the people here that are "dieting" and I quote " as I was reading the posts, the losses and the advice on maintaining I kept thinking you poor souls after all the struggle they will ultimatley fail and all the effort would have been in vain."

Excuse me but we are making our own lifestyle choices just as you are! Many of us are doing just fine on our programs and are losing and maintaining and are getting healthier and happier and feel our efforts are not "in vain".

I for one am not a "poor soul". I am happy with myself as a person regardless of what size I am and am happy with the results of my good eating habits and exercise habits and I resent your comments on that other site.

You seem to be preaching acceptance but it appears that you can't accept other people's ideas and lifestyle choices.

MrsJim
10-30-2003, 10:29 AM
Something else I found rather interesting is that you (Antidieter) who has basically bashed dieting (by which I assume you mean watching what you eat, exercising more, making permanent lifestyle changes) in NUMEROUS threads during your very short time here...you began a thread in this very forum titled "the diet I am trying".

Am I the only one who sees something, uh, contridictory here???

"...the information is almost new." That's what you stated above. The book you are continually advocating, "How to Become Naturally Thin by Eating More" was published (according to Amazon.com) in 1990. By my reckoning, that's 13 years ago (actually I think it's a bit older than that - I recall that I bought it from Rodale Publications back in the late 80's - might even still have it in one of my boxes somewhere - as I recall, like many weight loss/fitness related books whose authors are shooting for the best-seller lists, there are grains of truth sprinkled throughout - generally these truths are well known, but it's given a different spin in order to catch the potential purchaser's eye.

Again from Michael Fumento's book Fat of the Land:
The ultimate quack weight-loss device is the diet book. For those of you who aspire to write a weight-loss best-seller, here's the formula:

* Be fat.
* Lose weight.
* Pretend that having lost the fat you are now an expert in this area.
* Come up with a gimmick that distinguishes your book slightly from previous diet books.
* Intersperse a bunch of ancedotes from formerly fat people cured by your formula. Slap a slew of recipes or a fat-counter guide onto the back so your 15,000-word article now has the heft of at least a 75,000-word book.
* Keep the weight off long enough for the book tour and the appearances on the Good Morning America and Today shows.
* And - most important - don't forget to offer your readers something for nothing.

Whatever you do, don't tell people they have to eat less than they want to. In fact, if you want a really successful book, tell them that what they believe to be their vices are acutally good for them and that if they indulge even more, they'll weigh less. This something-for-nothing promise is often in the titles themselves, like How to Become Naturally Thin by Eating More, the best-selling Eat More, Weigh Less, and the subtitle of Cliff Sheat and Maggie Greenwood-Robinson's best-selling Lean Bodies, which is The Revolutionary New Approach to Losing Bodyfat by Increasing Calories. One cover strains so far to convince the reader to do nothing uncomfortable that it carries the contradictory title of Fight Fat and Win: How to Eat a Low-Fat Diet Without Changing Your Lifestyle. Presumably if your lifestyle already included a low-fat diet, you wouldl have any use for this book, but never mind.

Other books don't have a something-for-nothing promise in their titles, but it certainly appears in their pages or otherwise on their covers. Susan Powter in Stop the Insanity! says on the cover that the key to being skinny is to "eat, breathe, and move," albeit int he right ways. What could be finer than breathing off pounds? Richard and Racheal Heller in their best-selling Carbohydrate Addict's Diet tell readers that they can eat absolutely anything they want so long as they eat almost all their carbohydrates at the evening meal. And, oh yes, the evening meal absolutely must be consumed within an hour. Tough rules!

Barry Sears and Bill Lawren's The Zone says right on the back: "You can burn more fat watching TV than by exercising." Could that be why they've sold over 400,000 books? Between The Zone and Lean Bodies it appears we'd be a nation of beanpoles if we just watched TV twelve hours a day and ate potato chips the entire time. And then, of course, there's How Sex Can Keep You Slim, which says...well, you get the point.

I am oh so aware that folks tend to get rather, um, defensive about whatever particular diet plan they happen to be 'on'. Almost as though it were a religion or something. Shoot, if it works for them - and more importantly, if they're able to maintain a healthy lifestyle FOR LIFE in that way - more power to them! I myself do a combination of weight training, cardio, dressage and hunt seat riding, along with eating clean foods 90% of the time, with a couple of "free" treats or meals tossed in during the week. But others here do Pilates, Yoga, whatever, and that works for them. Great!

More later - gotta hit the shower.

aphil
10-30-2003, 10:41 AM
And no...ketosis is not what happens when a diabetic's blood sugar gets messed up. It takes the body a few days of low carbing for the body to go into ketosis...it really has nothing to do with the blood sugar at all. Ketosis happens when the body burns fat as fuel when it runs out of carbohydrate stores...
Your blood sugar levels are a totally different thing-and they are tested differently. You can test your ketosis/or lack of with a urine test...and you check your blood sugar by pricking your finger and checking the blood. In ketosis you are checking for ketones in the urine.
Your blood sugar as a diabetic must be kept at a certain level-too many simple carbs such as sugar, pastries, white bread, and so on will cause it to rise rapidly...which is why candy or a dose of fruit juice is used to quickly raise low blood sugar. Your blood sugar is tested throughout the day numerous times-so if you are tending to that properly and following your diabetic diet-it is impossible for you to go into ketosis. Too high or low of blood sugar can cause anything from "the shakes" to a deadly coma...and repeated blood sugar problems such as someone who doesn't follow their diet are subject to heart failure among other things-which is what killed my aunt. She didn't take following her diet, doing her exercise, and checking her blood sugar as seriously as she should have...
I do not disagree that you have read a lot of medical books and diet books...what I do think is that maybe you internalize certain passages that you personally agree with, and totally forgo the things you read that you do not agree with...and that you quote things to fit your own purpose and need at the time-a lot like people do with religion.
The "naturally thin" book you quote from a lot is not "new information"-actually it is outdated-over 10 years old-and this book is already out of print according to Amazon.com.
Aphil
I also wanted to add a little info about Atkins...I am not on Atkins, but it is a common perception that you eat all meat and eggs and hardly no fruits and veggies...you made a comment about that above. It is another example of "not getting all the information"-and you are not the only person who thinks this. On Atkins-you are only on the all meat/eggs/cheese induction part of the diet for a few weeks...some people who don't finish the book stay on this the entire time and therefore cannot stick with it for life. Successful "lifers" on Atkins know that after the induction period-you slowly add in plenty of lower carb fruits and veggies in...such as cantalaupe and honeydew melon, most kinds of berries, and almost all veggies-save for corn because it has a lot of carbs. It is only the very beginning that the fruits and veggies are very limited-just to kick off the ketosis process. And you do not stay in ketosis for the entire time...only during the weight loss segment...not for maintanence. You raise your carb intake a such to get out of ketosis, but not high enough to start gaining weight back.

StarPrincess
10-30-2003, 12:10 PM
Once again, Aphil, you have said it well.

Antidieter - please do not presume to know about something you're not educated on. I do follow the atkins lifestyle and as Aphil stated, I eat lots of veggies as well as melon and berries. I also normally eat meat once a day. As for ketosis, you're confusing it with a condition called ketoacidosis, which is indeed dangerous. Ketosis means your body is producing ketones - a byproduct that is produced when your body is using fat for fuel. Please, get your facts straight before you start attacking the lifestyle choices of others.

Thanks.

MrsJim
10-30-2003, 12:55 PM
Just adding another two cents to this thread...

Ketosis: I understand that many doctors treating kids for epilepsy often put them on ketogenic diets specifically to get them into ketosis. I myself have done what is called "Carb cycling" in the past - zig-zagging my carbs where I have high-carb days and low-carb days, which can often be helpful in getting past a plateau...

Eat More/Weigh Less and all that ilk: I've not only read a lot about this theory, I've done it. Basically the idea is a simple one - there's a book out called Picture Perfect Weight Loss that illustrates it in nice big color photos actually - the author shows that you can eat a LOT more of certain foods (generally what I term as "clean" foods and Dr. Phil calls in his excellent new book "high-yield nutrition") than others - check out the cover which shows how much 'clean' food you can eat for the same calories as a bagel and cream cheese:
http://www.runningpress.com/bookstore/assets/books/0762409827.gif

That's basically "eat more weigh less" in a nutshell. Whatever way you do it, it comes down to calories - calories ingested vs. calories expended - along with the QUALITY of your caloric intake.

If you (or anyone out there reading) is interested, I'd like to list some books I highly recommend about PERMANENT weight loss. Be advised that there are NO miracle diets in these books, just plain common sense.

Fat of the Land - The Obesity Epidemic and How Overweight Americans can Help Themselves by Michael Fumento. A bit dated (published in 1997) but still has quite a lot of great info, not to mention a VERY entertaining read. (I'm hoping that he comes out with an updated edition one of these days - IMO this book came out five years too soon...)

Thin for Life by Anne Fletcher. This book PROVES that YES you CAN lose weight PERMANENTLY. Dr. Fletcher talked to weight-loss 'masters' who lost 30 pounds or more and have kept it off for a minimum of three years - I believe she found most of them through the National Weight Control Registry whose website is here: http://www.lifespan.org/services/bmed/wt_loss/nwcr/ The NWCR's home page states as follows:
One of the most popular myths about weight loss is that everyone who loses weight will eventually gain it back. The National Weight Control Registry is a research study which has exploded this myth and shown that successful weight loss is indeed possible. Developed by Rena Wing, PhD, at Lifespan, Brown University and the University of Pittsburgh, and James Hill, PhD, at the University of Colorado, the National Weight Control Registry has identified nearly 3,000 individuals who have lost significant amounts of weight and kept it off for long periods of time.
Diary of a Fat Housewife by Rosemary Green. I have conflicts about this book - different emotions each time I read it. Rosemary Green was a slim beauty queen as a teenager, but after she married and had babies, gradually went up and down the '**** scale' up to 320 pounds. It took her over 20 years but she DID get her weight down to 135 and from what I've heard has kept the weight off up through today (I believe she does a radio show in Oregon nowadays). If you can find it, I recommend getting the 1996 paperback version over the hardcover since it has a very good afterward/update that is not in the first edition.

And adding this NEW addition to my list...

The Ultimate Weight Solution: The 7 Keys to Weight Loss Freedom by Dr. Phil McGraw. I just started reading this over the weekend (after waiting for the library to get it) and I'm definitely going to be purchasing my own copy - Dr. Phil does a great job putting the mental part of weight loss (IMO the hardest part) into perspective and breaking things down. I'm sure many people who read it will fling it aside, since there is no miracle plan in it - he says that right from the get-go - and there's quite a lot of WORK involved - journaling, getting inside yourself and WHY you live an unhealthy lifestyle. But as Pa Ingalls said in Little Town on the Prairie: "Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was anything else worth having."

antidieter
10-30-2003, 07:12 PM
compared to the dieting concept it is new. diets ideas started back in the 1800's. it really took off I would say in the last fify years. that is only an educated guess.

In this case I am referring to eat less thing, the diets being advocated of around 1500, this is a figure that some of my friends are vying for to lose.

here is alink I think you would like. TCS tech central station, I was lurking on the ttap and the link address is there I can't remember which post it was recent one tho.

if one finds a diet idea or pattern of life that works for them then I say go for it. but I know too that there are those who are frustrated, (maybe not on your forum maybe? )and who struggle and diet and work out and yet can't figure out why they end up fatter in the long run?

they would benefit by the studies in that tsc site. it was educational.

And I apologize if I am coming off as attacking anyone's choices of how to improve their health or lose weight. But by my giving you other information that you may or may not be aware of does give you another choice usually not advocated in the media.

I thought it would help others understand why some do not manage to get weight off permanently through dieting efforts. maybe some compassion would have been forthcoming, but don't misconstrue that I think any of you lack compassion.

but society in general, and the media really bash overweight people, expecially obese.

bicker
10-31-2003, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by antidieter
rather my goal was to show another way that is seldom advocated because really the information is almost new.Yet all you've managed to do is underscore how little reason people have to actually believe you.Also from what I read about low or no carbs diets,(except the vegies carbs) they put the body in a state of ketosis. Isn't that what diebetics go into when their sugar is all messed up?You've also managed to show how little you know about the things you express concern over. There are two different conditions: Ketosis and ketoacidosis. Just because they have some of the same letters don't make them the same thing.And for telling you what I learned both through study, reasoning on things, personal experience what I have seen in others etc, I get enthusiatic about something and have to share.I would like to think that admirable, but what is appropriate is for folks to share personal experiences of success. That is a motivator. Personal experiences of failure, without scientific evidence that that failure would be visited on everyone, is counter-productive, both to the aim of providing support, and to adding credibility to your own exerpeinces.I am sure if I had lived back in the middle ages and discovered that the earth was round and the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa I am sure they would of thought me insane too for going against the grain.Don't flatter yourself. Copernicus had volumes of scientific data providing his points.

slimmingsi
11-05-2003, 07:59 AM
i have myself self lost around 90lbs in 18months. i did lose 100 but after withdrawing myself from my diet and allowing myself to stabbalise out i gaine some weight back which was to be expected after 18months although i'm not on a "diet" i'm still eating the same as i was when i was on it. i.e its no longer a weightloss tool its my diet. the word diet means your daily intake of food over a period of time. what is commonly reffered to as a diet is a weightloss tool as i call it. its a short term alteration in your consumption of food to achieve a loss in weight. why people don't keep this weight off is cos they don't then alter there life to suit there new weight. they stop using there tools and revert back to the old ways if it made you fat before it'll make you fat again. my diet as it now is started as a weightloss tool but i now live by it. the basic rule is healthy food choices fresh fuits veg and fresh meat and fish. lots of excersise. i maintained my weight since march by doing this and i see no way how if i stick to it it'll start to creep on. i know the metabolism slows with age but at only 21 i got a few years untill i need to worry bout that.

and i'm not annorexic. annorexia nervousa???(please correct if wrong) is a mental illness where the sufferer doesn't eat. or consumes very little. they eventually die from malnutrition. i am not annorexic. i know this because 1. i'm not losing weight and i still have 22% body fat. and 2. because i'm maintianing my weight at 230ish consuming in excess of 2500 calories a day. cos i burn it all up. i agree that weightloss tools (diets) are bad and usually fail. because they are used incorrectly. most people who have successfully lost and kept off for a period of time havn't used a weightloss tool of any description they have changed there life. i'm sure the big losers here who have kept the weight off have infact changed the way they eat drastically compared to what they ate before they lost weight. its not about shedding using a weightloss device and stopping cos thats yo-yo dieting. its about healthy food choices regular excersise and not passing hte buck complaining you are special and can't do it. everyone can it just requires will power and hard work. and if people are not succeeding then in there hearts they really can't want to lose the pounds that much

slimmingsi
11-05-2003, 08:27 AM
i think the expression is shot down in flames :flame:

bicker
11-05-2003, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by slimmingsi
i have myself self lost around 90lbs in 18months.Congratulations on your success!

although i'm not on a "diet" i'm still eating the same as i was when i was on it. i.e its no longer a weightloss tool its my diet.Indeed: The main challenge in this realm is adopting new, healthy behaviors. While you may employ various sets of eating behaviors in your diet as you reduce your level of risk, the eating behaviors you practice while losing, say, the last 20-35 pounds, should very well be the ones you practice for life.

the word diet means your daily intake of food over a period of time. what is commonly reffered to as a diet is a weightloss tool as i call it. its a short term alteration in your consumption of food to achieve a loss in weight. why people don't keep this weight off is cos they don't then alter there life to suit there new weight. they stop using there tools and revert back to the old ways if it made you fat before it'll make you fat again. Precisely. Such short-term alterations are appropriate for those at greater risk, but all responsible weight-loss regimens include transition to regimens that are more appropriate at lower risk, for patients who reach that level of weight-loss achievement. For example, Atkins has "Induction" and then an ongoing regimen, and I think it even has a third regimen, specifically for transition to maintenance and maintenance.

Using a weight-loss regimen improperly, i.e., only using the regimen intended to address the highest risk when that risk isn't present, or never transitioning to the regimens intended for the lower risk states, is like using a hammer to apply a screw. It's just plain incorrect practice.

my diet as it now is started as a weightloss tool but i now live by it. the basic rule is healthy food choices fresh fuits veg and fresh meat and fish. lots of excersise. i maintained my weight since march by doing this and i see no way how if i stick to it it'll start to creep on. i know the metabolism slows with age but at only 21 i got a few years untill i need to worry bout that. Heheh... Yup! I just hit 40, and what I'm doing is racheting up the duration of exercise. Eventually, I, like my hard-working ancestors before me for centuries, will simply reduce intake as I get older and my metabolism slows.

i agree that weightloss tools (diets) are bad and usually fail. because they are used incorrectly.Or perhaps never really applied with the intention to live heathfully for life in the first place.

most people who have successfully lost and kept off for a period of time havn't used a weightloss tool of any description they have changed there life.That's not clear to me. While it is true that most people who have lost a significant amount of weight and kept it off long-term haven't used any particular diet regimen, it is clear that most have used some diet regimen, and to deny that even those who supposedly "craft their own" aren't heavily influenced by what they know with regard to other diets is a bit ludicrous. :p

its about healthy food choices regular excersise and not passing hte buck complaining you are special and can't do it. everyone can it just requires will power and hard work. and if people are not succeeding then in there hearts they really can't want to lose the pounds that much With only minor exception (i.e., PCOS), I agree with you completely.

slimmingsi
11-05-2003, 11:43 AM
thankyou and congrats on you managing to keep the 100 off. i still got a few to lose when i get round to kicking myself in to making another change to my lifestyle lol.

what i meant about people with success not using any weightloss tools. isn't that they havn't used them. its that they have used them as lifestyle changes not as short term fixes it was a step in a successfull management of weight. we as "fat" people. are more efficient at storing fat for emergency times. which back in the day would have been a genetic gift but today is not so good as there is no need for it. so we must fight the fight against our gift in order to preserve our health. hence we have to manage our weight. not fix it.

with regards to PCOS??? i have no idea what it is lol. so i wont try and say anything the only possible problem with weightloss i know of is being diabetic my mother has recently last 5 years become diatbetic i keep telling her she needs to excersise but she uses her "illness" as she puts it as an excuse not to do anything. but there is science behind excersising to controll it. but she wont accept it. lol i just tell her to eat what she wants to get fatter and die so i can have the house :lol: we have a very warped sense of humour in our family. plus we're british which don't hlep much

bicker
11-06-2003, 04:55 AM
The story isn't clear with respect to PCOS. Many afflicted with PCOS claim it utterly prohibits effective weight-management, while others disagree. I haven't heard enough from either side to be compelled to support either perspective.