[GlamourGirl827]

My dad has never seem to come to terms with how awful and at time abusive my childhood was. He wasn't the abuser, but he didn't step in to stop it either. After he and my mother split up he wasn't living with us, and has said he didn't know it was going on. During the years following their break up he was very uninvolved. He has no part in my life other than maybe seeing him once a month at best and the occasional phone call. He was dating some crackhead (literally, she had a crack issue) and was living between her with her several horrid children and his mom. I DREADED seeing him because of this. He wasn't present for any of my things through middle school and high school. The one time I tried to talk to him about how badly I was being made fun of/harassed in school, he asked me if I was gay...he actually said "You're not trying to say you are gay are you?"...And for the record, I'm not. But I was always a tom boy, and had very little interest in my appearance. So for my dad, that meant I was gay...

At home I was dealing with a lot of abuse from my mother, who was never treated for her mental illness. At its worst, she used to keep a room where she kept her cats, but she never cared for them. She's put food in there, but would go months without cleaning the litter box. The room was so infested with fleas that we kept a towel under the door to keep them out of the main part of the apartment, but the apartment was infested anyway. When she would get angry which could be set off by odd and unpredictable things, she would lock me in there and tell me to clean the litter box. But it was just a congealed mess, almost impossible to clean. And as soon as I walked in I'd be covered in fleas.

When I was in 6th grade, I burnt myself ironing my clothes. It was a really bad burn, but I received no care for it. I treated it myself by wrapping in in toilet paper and securing it with scotch tape. I was mortified at school, but it was oozing and painful to leave uncovered.

School was just as bad. I had a girl one time put gum in my hair, and too embarrassed to tell my mom, I torn it out with a chunk of hair. In 8th grade when a group of girls were picking on me on the bus, I did speak up and then it went from making fun of me to them trying to attack me. My mother said I was big (fat) enough to take them. I ended up avoiding them until it blew over. We lived in a dumpy neighborhood, so most of the people I was around outside of school and on the bus were the kind of kids that were skipping school, doing drugs and getting arrested for fighting and breaking and entering. (My brother actually got arrested years ago for breaking into a liquor store, and later for under aged drinking).

I was tormented so bad in school, I started bringing a steak knife to school for fear I was going to have to defend myself. My parents were absent mentally from all this, wrapped up in their own lives. My home life was fights and physical confrontations, and my school life was torture. I actually switched schools after 10th grade because I was being so badly harassed that I refused to go back the that school, so I started using an aunts address in another (wealthier, nicer) town and I would go to her house after school (via bus) until I got my drivers license.

This is just the surface of my childhood, so much more went on.


Needless to say, I was not a happy person then, and even going into my 20s. I had a lot to work through and a lot of anger. I eventually removed my mother from my life, because her toxic presence was an over whelming source of dysfunction and drama, and I no longer wanted to be around her. I reconnected with my dad, though I still feel a bit of anger towards him as he never really owned up to being absent all those years, and still is quite emotionally dysfunctional in certain ways. I am still trying to decide what to let go of, and what I have the right to bring up to him. He is not able to talk about anything that remotely suggests he is not perfect. He definitely has so narcissism going on there and flies into a rage if it is suggested he did anything wrong.

He also has a problem comprehending that people think and behave differently from him. He assumes everyone thinks the way he does, acts the way he does for the same reasons he does and grows mentally the same way and at the same rate he does. At 33 my dad was living with his mom, working random jobs, had his license taken away for a dwi, and his life was a mess. I've always been more responsible and I am not who he was, but he cant get that. He has always had a temper, though its mellowed out a lot.

I had a lot of anger and I have over the years learned to identify my triggers, all of which can be pointed out by a Psych 101 student, so obvious to my childhood experiences. And I continue to work on those. But generally speaking, underneath all that pain I'm a very happy person.

The point I'm getting to, is because my dad was a hot head ignorant person (he says this of his younger self in his 20s and 30s) then therefor I must be as well. I've tried to tell him that my anger comes from a place of abuse and worthlessness of a crappy childhood but he doesn't "hear" me. Even my stepmom agrees that I obviously had a difficult life at that time and anyone would have had a dark time coming out of that.

My dad sent me a song that he said remind him of me and my husband, and the lyrics talk about a stubborn, pride filled hot headed childish girl and once she meets this perfect man, decides to grow up and be a woman for this guy.

Seriously.

I am just so beyond hurt about this. The killer is, my dad truly does not get why this is hurtful. And if I tell him its hurtful he will respond with rage. I am sure of this.

I just needed to get this out somewhere.

[Song of Surly]

I am so, so sorry. That does sound incredibly hurtful. I have no words to help you, but I know a nice community online that you might benefit from if you haven't found it already. http://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/

I'm not trying to diagnose your mother or father, but your situation sounds very similar to some of the stories I read there. I was not raised by narcissists, but I took an interest in the subject after becoming a teacher and knowing about a student in a similar situation. It horrifies me to think that it is likely that some of my students are living in toxic environments like this. It can be so emotionally damaging.

Honestly, I've always enjoyed reading your posts, and I know you've mentioned coming a long way in life multiple times. After reading this, I find your success in being a happy and decently well-adjusted person to be absolutely amazing. I'm not sure I'd be strong enough to come out of that with just some left-over anger issues. You are such a survivor, and it's a shame your dad can't see past himself to see that.

[Beachplum]

wow, what an amazing woman you are! You should be very proud of yourself for recognizing what was going on and fixing it. Most people in your situation would just sit back and think they couldn't do anything about their life situation and wallow in self pity. (IMHO) You are truly an inspiration! You must be an amazing mom as well. I wouldn't give it another thought to what your dad did. That issue is on him not you. He doesn't even know you by what I have read. Pray for him and love him where he is at. Remember we didn't get to pick our parents, so girl, do the best you can with the ones you have. Maybe by seeing how you have turned out, they might see there is hope for themselves as well. Keep up the good work!

[Mrs Snark]

Your father continues to be an ignoramus (the nicest thing I could think of to call him). At this point, he is probably never going to change or "wake up to reality", and his world view will always be skewed in a way that absolves him of everything.

I wish he didn't have the power to hurt you any more. That is what I wish for you. You define who you are, NOT him.

I'm so pissed at him after reading this I want to find a song called "You are a Giant Ignorant Confused Idiotic Douchebag" (the nicest words I could choose from the ones I really want to say) so you can send it to him. Which I know isn't really helpful to you.

So I will just say again: your Dad's self-serving views DO NOT define you. You define you. Pity him, he is LOST.

[patns]

He is beyond help or reasoning, it is amazing you were able to pull yourself out of the situation by highschool and finish it.

It sounds like to him the world revolves around him, he will never see another point of view so not worth it to dicuss anything from your point of view with him.

[GlamourGirl827]

To both Song of Surly and Beachplum. I don't know if my words can express how truly comforting post of your responses were. Sometimes I think its difficult to remember that behind our screen names, we are real people with stories, lives, and feelings. And at times, I am guilty of forgetting that even in print my words have meaning and power and they should be used to lift others up rather than tear them down. Thank you both for choosing to use your post to offer comfort. I greatly appreciate that.

Song of Surly, I thin you are quite accurate in your observation. I have spent many years reading on mental illness, personality disorders and specifically the effect it has on children raised in that environment. Short of having the credentials to diagnose my parents, I can with certainty that my mother has borderline personality disorder and my father is narcissistic, however, as I believe these can be spectrum like, I can say his is not so severe that he is a classic narcissist. I partly wonder if he is more exhibiting these traits/behaviors as a learned thing from his father, who I never met because he died when I was a baby.

Sadly enough, I have spent many years trying to filter out the behaviors I learned from my parents. I spent a long time thinking I had these disorders, but after seeking a few professional opinions, all agreed that these were learned behaviors, not that I had any diagnosable disorder. Their biggest point on this was that I was so aware of all my behaviors and had insight into my behaviors, their causes and triggers. Ironically, I am triggered by behaviors classic to borderline personality disorder and/ or narcissistic personality disorder. I am trigger by people that display the same behaviors, thought patterns, lack of insight, passive aggressiveness or ill adjusted communication skills that my parent do. Even if its not directed at me, if I witness this, it usually triggers me to fight back and protect the "victim". I know what I am doing, and I try in the moment to walk through it, and some day I will no longer feel the need to "take down" or "stop" those that I perceive as toxic people.
I also want to thank you for saying you've enjoyed my posts. I have been very candid on 3FC about my past. I don't want it to be an excuse, but I guess I want people to know that it is the main reason I am who I am and why I say some of the things I say. I know I can be very forward, but a big part of that comes from that fact that I am blunt with myself, and I have found that not sugar coating things combined with several good kicks in the @ss, are why I am where I am and not where I could be considering my past.

Beachplum, thank you for saying I am amazing. I really feel like I just did what I had to do. I try very hard to be a better mom with my kids. Two things I do, that has been so important to me to give them is I admit when I'm wrong. Which is often lol. I tell my son, if he didn't pick up his shoes for example, after he was asked to do so, and I yell at him. I will tell him, that even though he didn't listen, I should not have yelled. That no matter what he does wrong, I am the adult and its my responsibility to know how to handle the situation without yelling. I tell him often no matter what he may do in the future, it doesn't make it his fault if I get mad or yell or lose my temper. This is so important to me because my parents always said it was my fault they got mad, it was my fault they lost their temper and if I did the right thing, then they wouldn't get mad. But as the adult, it was their job to be the adult and take responsibility for their behavior. The second thing I do is celebrate my sons accomplishments and birthdays. My birthdays were acknowledged with a card or special treat like a cupcake with a candle, and in kindergarten my mom did have a few girls over for my bday, but after that they stopped. I didn't get parties or gifts. I think it was too much for them. I wasn't thrown bday parties, no bridal showers, no baby showers. My life was never worth the time to celebrate. My dad has commented that I only give my kids bday parties for me, not them. (My kids are 10 mon, 4 y/o and 6 y/o) so the older ones know they are getting parties, and would know if they were not getting bday parties like their peers. So those things might seem small but I don't want my children to feel worthless like I do.


Thank you both so much.

[GlamourGirl827]

Mrs Snark and Patns, I was taking forever to post my recent post while you both posted

Thank you both. I agree, I need to pity him. I think telling him that this was hurtful will not end well. I ask myself what am I looking to gain? I want him to see life from my view, but you are right that that will likely never happen. So what do I gain from telling him? Just drama and more frustration. I know he wants us to be super close, and in his mind we are. Sometimes I feel deceitful because I don't feel as close to him as he thinks we are. But the steps to actually have a stronger relationship are ones he wont or cant take. I wanted to get this out because I know in a day or so he's going to call and ask if I got the song. I don't want to have this hurt bottled up because it makes it so much harder to not say something even though I know that its futile.

[Lecomtes]

I just think you are amazing for overcoming and looking back with maturity and understanding on a very challenging childhood. You are a stronger woman than I as I might have composed a lengthy (but likely ineffectual and emotionally exhausting) tirade to that "father" of yours! But YOU seem like a strong, insightful person who looks at her challenges from above, which seems like it's helped you learn a lot about yourself and improve yourself even without the support system many take for granted. There is army strong and then there is glamour strong! Kudos.

[crispin]

Oh man, GlamourGirl. I'm amazed by your resiliency, intelligence, and good heart.

It sounds like the only way to keep him in your life and not suffer is to be numb with him, to not really open your heart and feel him. Can that be done? I don't know. It's so natural to want to love and be loved in a genuine way when you have a relationship with someone, especially with your own dad. But this guy...it's just doesn't seem possible to have a real relationship with him because he's so unhealthy. And if it can't be real, is it even worth having one?

I went through my own issues with my dad. He's one of the few people though who's actually changed. He's in his 70s now and has been a far better person since my mom's death about 5 years ago. When he was his old self though, I avoided him as much as I could and related to him on a very superficial level. It was the only way I could be happy. I hope that whatever choices you make that you get the peace and happiness that you deserve.

[Riestrella]

Wow. I'm so sorry you had to go through so much during your childhood. To not have that acknowledged and simply ignored...that's horrible. But like so many other people have said here - he is beyond help now. You said it yourself that he thinks he is perfect, that his opinion is the correct opinion, so to the best of your ability you just have to ignore it. You can try to convince him, but if you can honestly say you've tried your best, then the best you can do is move forward with your life with the lessons you've learned. There will always be someone or something to remind you of the hardships we go through, but if you put those in front of you and choose to deal with them then you'll only slow yourself down on your path to happiness.

Your story reminds me of my Grandad, he was essentially never around for my Dad/Uncle or even for his grandchildren. My Nana was around, she was the nicest person on the planet and was always involved and supportive. My Nana passed away 8 years ago, something my Grandad never recovered from, but what's strange is that when I talk about my childhood that involved me being in his house and all the things we would do he gets all flustered and says "Oh, I don't remember." He doesn't remember because he wasn't there. Instead of acknowledging that he didn't want to be involved with anyone else but himself, his newspaper and the t.v he chooses to firmly believe that he just simply can't recall. He does it with my Dad too, but for him it's hurtful because he never really had a connection with his own father because he was simply uninterested. Some people just don't want to admit that they were wrong, they live these little fantasies in their heads that everything was fine and they are not to blame for anything.

I want to echo what others have said in that you are so strong and amazing for going through all that you've been through and coming out on top. You deserve to be happy

[novangel]

Your past sounds as colorful as mine. My Father is also very...cold, and school was absolute ****. No advice because I'm in the same boat, just expressing sympathy. :hugs:

[KayMayWill]

My dad is a total narcissist. Which boils down to this..He is the most selfish, self righteous, insensitive person I have ever met. He's been verbally abusive my whole life, up until I got married. Now he saves most of his worst digs for when we're alone. So guess what? I try to never be alone with him. I don't talk to him on the phone. I try to let the rude and obnoxious things that he says roll off my back.

I wouldn't say anything to your dad, because he will not hear it. He'll turn your feelings around and make it about him. That's what abusers do, they attack and when they're called out on it they try to manipulate their victims into feeling guilty for responding. Its a win win for them, two in one!

You seem like an amazing mother, and a wonderful, strong woman. You are an inspiration for everything you've overcome in your life. Don't let that **** take that away from you. (((((bigbighugs)))))

[Oohpujie]

Without going into a huge background, I too come from a childhood that is very similar to yours. It's done a number on me. I have suffered through addiction issues of several types, broken relationships, abusive behaviors. I have had to have a LOT of therapy to truly start to deal with what has happened to me.

I had to cut off my dad. He brought NO good to my life at all - nothing. He used me, demeaned me, and triggered me into feeling bad. This is a toxic person who has no place in my life. I cut him off about 1.5 years ago, and I don't regret it at all. My life has been much happier and much more at peace.

I ask you - what good does a relationship with your father bring to your life? Does he do anything for you? Does he make you feel loved? Does he make you feel taken care of? Just because someone is "family" or "blood", does not mean you have to keep a relationship with them. It does not make you a bad person if you cut off someone that brings nothing but toxicity to your life.

A book you may find interesting... "A Journey from Abandonment to Healing" by Susan Anderson.

[GlamourGirl827]

Thank you all for your replies. Oohpujie, those are very good questions and I never really stepped back to ask them about my dad. My mother was the very toxic one, that was severely abusive and toxic. I removed her from my life about 7 years ago, and when I did it was like a black cloud lifted. All of my recovery started after I was no longer suffering from her presence. Its been a long 7 years but I am amazed at who I really am, if that makes sense? It was like I couldn't even find myself because I was so buried under the sadness, confusion, pain and anger I lived with daily when I had my mother around.

My dad seems different. Its like he's in there someone, lost inside his behaviors and it seems he wants to be free of them but doesn't know how to do that. I do wonder if his father was this way and he is still carrying learned behaviors from him, because there have been times *after* he rages that he will express he does not want to do that and that he wants to change. But in the moment, there is just no talking to him. I think all I ever wanted from my parents was their desire to be better people. My mother will go to her grave thinking she is the most wonderful sole to grace the earth and not just me but everyone in her life were out to get her. (She is so dysfunctional and cant hold a job or maintain friendships) But its never her fault according to her. But I feel like my dad wants to be a better person, but doesn't know how. He did ask me if I got the song and I just said yes and changed the subject. I don't think he's trying to be hurtful. Its like he actually cannot grasp why his opinion, judgments or point of view are incorrect or even hurtful. He literally cannot see past his own thoughts. In his minds eye, his thoughts about me are true and accurate and this song only reflected that. But in his mind's eye, EVERY young girl (and guy I suppose) is exactly like this song, because that is that only way he understands a young adult, the same way HE was as a young adult. He's not a mean person, not a name caller, unless he's raging, but that's rare. Well, its rare because I just avoid setting him off. I mean I speak my peace when it needs to be spoken, but evn to this day, we'll talk 2-3 times a week but for 5 minutes on the phone. I cant get him to talk to me for very long anyway. He's always antsy to hang up. He's tired from work, but even days off, he always says he has something to do. He very very rarely ever gets on the phone and really talks to me anyway.

I just really wanted to vent this somewhere, because I didn't want to make a big deal out of it with him because that would really just be a waste of my time.

[Oohpujie]

Originally Posted by GlamourGirl827

Thank you all for your replies. Oohpujie, those are very good questions and I never really stepped back to ask them about my dad. My mother was the very toxic one, that was severely abusive and toxic. I removed her from my life about 7 years ago, and when I did it was like a black cloud lifted. All of my recovery started after I was no longer suffering from her presence. Its been a long 7 years but I am amazed at who I really am, if that makes sense? It was like I couldn't even find myself because I was so buried under the sadness, confusion, pain and anger I lived with daily when I had my mother around.

My dad seems different. Its like he's in there someone, lost inside his behaviors and it seems he wants to be free of them but doesn't know how to do that. I do wonder if his father was this way and he is still carrying learned behaviors from him, because there have been times *after* he rages that he will express he does not want to do that and that he wants to change. But in the moment, there is just no talking to him. I think all I ever wanted from my parents was their desire to be better people. My mother will go to her grave thinking she is the most wonderful sole to grace the earth and not just me but everyone in her life were out to get her. (She is so dysfunctional and cant hold a job or maintain friendships) But its never her fault according to her. But I feel like my dad wants to be a better person, but doesn't know how. He did ask me if I got the song and I just said yes and changed the subject. I don't think he's trying to be hurtful. Its like he actually cannot grasp why his opinion, judgments or point of view are incorrect or even hurtful. He literally cannot see past his own thoughts. In his minds eye, his thoughts about me are true and accurate and this song only reflected that. But in his mind's eye, EVERY young girl (and guy I suppose) is exactly like this song, because that is that only way he understands a young adult, the same way HE was as a young adult. He's not a mean person, not a name caller, unless he's raging, but that's rare. Well, its rare because I just avoid setting him off. I mean I speak my peace when it needs to be spoken, but evn to this day, we'll talk 2-3 times a week but for 5 minutes on the phone. I cant get him to talk to me for very long anyway. He's always antsy to hang up. He's tired from work, but even days off, he always says he has something to do. He very very rarely ever gets on the phone and really talks to me anyway.

I just really wanted to vent this somewhere, because I didn't want to make a big deal out of it with him because that would really just be a waste of my time.

Not to derail, but I am going to copy and paste sentences from your response below, and I want you to think about them:

"I never really stepped back to ask them about my dad." <- why?

"I lived with daily when I had my mother around." <- if this is what it was like for you, what was it like for your dad? either he's a truly wonderful selfless person, or he's just as toxic as she is.

"Its like he actually cannot grasp why his opinion, judgments or point of view are incorrect or even hurtful. He literally cannot see his own thoughts." <- this is basically an explanation of narcissism/NPD.

"Well, its rare because I just avoid setting him off. I mean I speak my peace when it needs to be spoken, but evn to this day, we'll talk 2-3 times a week but for 5 minutes on the phone. I cant get him to talk to me for very long anyway. He's always antsy to hang up." <- you have learned how to speak to him, not to set him off. He's not interested in your side of the truth or your opinions, he only wants someone to spew his thoughts to.

I think, from an unprofessional but experienced viewpoint, your mother/father were caught in the BPD/NPD dance. They are both toxic, difficult, abusive people.

Please feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat about this more.